"must secure 15-20 year ME PUC contracts" before a partner will come forward...that says it all...its all about selling power to the NE power grid, not really about starting the mill!!

How many people actually think that this mill is actually going to be up and running again ever! Are you kidding me. People keep talking about it and people keep writing in here regarding the delays and different issues and people from East Milly and Medway dump on the people of Millinocket for not saving money back in the day. Well, I'm sure those people weren't putting there cash in CD's and investments either. Not many of us think for tomorrow but should have with all the mess we are dealing with today. People were happy and things were good or better yet, great! Now times are tough and Millinocket is becoming a ghost town more and more everyday. The thing that needs to happen is people need to just accept it and deal with the changes. It's hard to do but people need to move on and get out of this dwindeling town that really has no future. The school system is a joke there are no jobs in town. Many young people that live in the town work as engineers or other traveling jobs so they don't depend on the work force in the surrounding areas. Many of these workers that get laid off find other jobs and then will get a call back and quit the jobs they have and come back, which is sad when you really look at it. People need to make the choice of either dealing with the circumstances and wait for something that really isn't going to happen or pick up and make it better somewhere else. I love Millinocket and don't hesistate to call it home but it's due time people start realizing that it's not coming back and it's only going to get worse.

Who the hells calling the shots over there anyway? Brookfiled or Fraser? Stop passing the buck and tell it like it is. Their decision my ass. Your company calls the shots.

start it or don't stop stringing the people along, its like dangling a piece of cake in front of a fat kid

Maybe they can get AIG to invest in that obsolete mill. Seems that management at AIG don't have a clue on how to make money so this bankrupt mill in Millinocket would be a perfect investment for them.

It's all about the MONEY !!

Unless investors' have guarantee's of their returns on investments, there will not be a functional mill either as paper or as an electrical producer.

Milltown65 has a good summary of its probable outcome, unfortunately but probable.

Yes it is about money.

Of course IT'S about money.....what's so wrong about that? That is why people start businesses....to make money. Job creation has always been secondary. Can't create jobs and hire employees if the business isn't making money....

This same senario is going to and has happened at the OldTown Mill. I know, I lost my job there with 1 year to go til retirement. The mill has been up and down since then. Milltown 65 sums it up for most of the paper mills. I live up here among yous and I feel your pain. But I chose to be here and Im not sorry. This region can prosper again. The region needs a planner.

Get rid of the loser union and the money will flow

Operate the mill at a loss or sell power for a profit.....No need to be a brain surgeon to figure this one out....I do feel for the people that have lost their Jobs....

The region WILL prosper again...have a little FAITH .

The region can prosper but only if tourism takes off. Mills cannot compete globally due to excessively high union wages. If you're a union mill worker, you have little choice but to find an alternative line of work. Sorry but that's the way it is.

The death knell for this mill was sounded when the politicians allowed the company to convert to 60 cycle and sell power to the grid.

Ok Sledman,

I am calling you out on this one. Please explain to me why you think these mill workers get paid too much. Can you tell me what hourly rate you think they should be getting paid? Because of all the consessions made by the union, most of these workers that have been there for 30 years are only getting about $21 per hour, that is 43k per year. Don't bother including the OT, every worker (few exceptions) gets paid to work more than 40 hours. If not, then the companies would have to hire more people to fill those extra hours. They get NO retirement (401K like evryone else), no more health benefits when they retire. These wages are not out of line. Yes they are higher than 3rd world countries, but we are not a 3rd world country.

Please help us understand where the cuts need to be made

Thanks

For those of you who think Unions and high wages are the problem - - - you better hope that Unions don't ever go away in this country. Unions are the only reason that wages are anything higher than minimum wage in any place in this country. Unions are the reason that you get overtime after working 40 hours a week - -the only reason that many of the progressive laws like Social Security, OSHA, Civil Rights, Family Medical Leave, Medicare, Medicaid, and others are on the books today - - the only reason that YOU don't work in a sweatshop where your chances of retiring with your health are zero - - the only reason that YOU can go to work every day and not experience discrimination. You can bash Unions all you want but if they didn't exist you would find yourself in a far different world. The workers in every industrialized nation on this earth have prospered because of Unions and the productivity and quality that result from having an organized workforce. The lack of Unions is why the rest of the world are considered to be third world economies. Employers in those third world countries exploit the workers and families there, pay them far less than a living wage and work them around the clock in horrible workplace settings. If you want to experience third world conditions and be exploited by those with money then just go ahead and keep arguing that Unions are what is bringing America down - - argue that Unions are a thing of the past - - - go ahead and advocate that Unions ought be done away ought to be done away with. If there wasn't a Union next door to your workplace do you really think you would be getting what you get? Go ahead and argue that Union people make too much money - - see where that gets you!! However if you REALLY had a desire to get ahead you would be JOINING a Union. Think about it.

$350.000 a month to keep the mill warm,? okay they might as well have been running #11. It did not cost much more than that when the machine was running. What a joke where did they come up with theses numbers, pull them out of their hats perhaps.

Other non-union industries pay a super ace whiz top-notch experienced Mechanic $22/hr., general machine operators are $15/hr., janitorial $10/hr.

Those in general non-uinion industry are promoted & fired based on performance, not longevity. I could go on here but it's undeniable unionized labor is more expensive than non-uinionized. Unions are not the only cause for domestic industry decline. Near-sighted management only focussed on short term returns ie., corporate greed is also a contributing factor. Unions need to disband, CEO's need to step up, take paycuts & plan beyond the end of the month.

Sledman - - incredibly naive. Do you think that the employer of that $22/hr Mechanic is paying $22/hr from the kindness and generosity he has in his heart for Mechanics? The fact is that he is paying the $22/hr because the "super ace whiz top-notch mechanic" can go find work across town at a Union facility that would pay him that kind of wage! Now if Unions did not exist how long do you think the $22/hr. is going to survive? The reality is that if the employer of this $22/hr. mechanic could keep his mechanic for $8/hr. he would do it. You eliminate or disband Unions and that is EXACTLY where the $22/hr. mechanic is going to end up. And if the Chamber of Commerce and other right wing groups could accomplish a reduction in the minimum wage level (which by the way was created and is supported by Unions) then they would not hesitate to do so. Unions are the ONLY entity in this country that keep employers in check. They provide the competition that makes it so that non-Union employers must pay and treat workers in a manner that keeps them from seeking employment elsewhere. I don't know what you do for a living but you need to understand the connection between Unions and the terms of your own employment. If it wasn't for Unions you would not be enjoying the standard of living that you do. Unions are not the problem - - they are the reason there is a middle class in this country. And thus as we are seeing at this moment in history - when Unions are on the decline - - so is the middle class. A reality and connection that are indisputable.

Gee, Bcktndr, I don't see a PHD after your name but your sure seem to know it all. I enjoy my lifestle on my own doing, not the unions, get real. I could go on here but no sense wasting keystrokes for those who don't get it.

Over & out.

Sledman

Go to other countries where there are no unions. There is NO middle class, you are either poor or very rich. I have been to many of them and you would not want our society to be like theres. Look at Canada, many countries in Europe and the Scandanavian countries, they all have strong unions and a middle class. To those that do not believe this have either not done enough research or just like to bash the unions anyway. You are right that there are abuses in the system that need to be fixed, but you do not disban all unions because of this. These hourly rates are inline or below average for other comparable work. There really would be no middle class if it were not for the unions.

Sledman,

You are right, you are wasting your key strokes because what you type is completely out of whack. If you work for someone else, the only reason you are getting paid the wage you are is because of the unions. Bcktndr is absolutely correct.

What you fail to realize is expensive unions are directly causing the contraction of domestic industry. What, sure, whatever: The only reason we earn what we do now is because of unions yaddie yadda. What are we going to do when all industry jobs are gone because of unions? Unions must ease-up, to preserve what few jobs this country has left. The UAW has figured this out. If that group of monkeys can see it so too should you geniuses.

If you look into it, the UAW has not really given up much. These guys can still retire with benefits at 55. There is way more to this issue than you are either admitting or you fail to see. Much of this has to do with competion against the overseas market (3rd world countries), our trade agreements, etc. If you want the U.S to be able to compete with slave labor, then we must accepts slave wages. Do you really want this to happen? You still have not suggested what you want these mill workers to concede. You are painting all unions thoughout the whole country with the same brush. The whole world is in a recession, the demand for products are down, this is why people are losing there jobs. Until the people and companies of the world start spending money, along with being able to aquire loans, this will continue no matter what the unions do. This is way bigger than the unions. Call whomever you want geniuses, but you are failing to see the picture thats right infront of you.

movethen gets it. Anyone who thinks that Unions are the cause for "contraction of domestic industry" is simply naive. We often hear about "foreign competition" and the need to "compete" with lower wages and benefits that workers in other parts of the world are paid. Well the fact of the matter is that the "foreign competition" used to be just that - - foreign. Today we live in a place where the competition is no longer as foreign as it once was. American workers were capable of competing against the old "foreign competition" because it was a small player in the overall market. Now however, we have experienced a wholesale abandonment of American workers by American companies who indeed are NOW the "foreign competition" that we hear about. These American companies invested in facilities off-shore for several reasons - - first to exploit the workers in other parts of the world because they could not exploit workers here and secondly because our government built incentives for them to do so. Now that they ARE the off-shore "foreign competition" and, to the extent that they still have some domestic facilities, they are screaming that the workers in America are the problem.

I would submit that American workers are not the problem - - nor are American Unions - - the REAL problem is American companies who could care less if America sinks or swims because they have the ability to exploit workers elsewhere. American companies used to have a little pride and patriotism in America. Today they could care less and will go wherever they can find the cheapest labor. The flaw in their plan is that it is American workers who drive the economy of the world. If American workers can't buy - - then no one has the ability to prosper. So keep on talking about American workers and American Unions being the problem - - but you better hope to hell your desire for a future without Unions doesn't come true or it will be YOU who is left pawing through a garbage pile to find a few morsels of food for your babies - - just like those people in third world countries that you see on the news. THAT is what you face without a strong Labor Movement and middle class workers.

movethen: I agree this is way bigger than the unions. Corporate greed is also a problem which is why I also agree w/Bcktndr & he or she is spot-on w/American co's. caring less, this is another way of saying corporate greed.

My point w/unions is they are expensive. This combined w/corporate greed caused the outsourcing of domestic jobs. The collapse of domestic industry is the result of expensive unions & corporate greed.

Unfortunately, it's too late, industry can't be saved & in particular, domestic industries that compete globally iwill continue to vanish. Unions won't conceed & CEO's will continue to be short-sighted, 'I want it all/now' money grubbing self-serving pigs.

The non-union Toyota & Honda plant 'models' offer a possible solution.

I know many union workers in the Ten. area that work outages at Toyota and like it there. The workers at this plant may be non union, only because Toyota is treating them well, otherwise the workers would unionize. Since the area is mostly union, everyone going to the plant for the outages are union. Honda and Toyota knew coming into this they were going to have to be competative or else.

I guess my concern with some previous posts of yours is you keep talking about concessions. What concessions do you want them to make. They don't have anything anymore to give (talking local millworkers). Even if they all said lets take a $5 hr pay cut, that would not do it. (I wouldn't even suggest it). I know this article leads us into a deeper conversation because the world market affects the area and mills, but just talking about these mills, what do you think the unions should do?

I think we are all on the same page for the most part, but I am not sure what you want these people to exactly do.

Union workers need to conceed pay & bennies so it's more in-line w/ those in non-union biz. Union wages & bennies are in general higher than those in non-union biz. CEO's need to reciprocate by conceeding thier of-the-wall bonuses, funnel that money back into the company so laborers don't need to unionize.

Lately in the news we have been hearing so much about the UAW. This has tainted the way people view unions because this is all they know. I agree some of the programs the UAW had was not in line with the rest of the country. This does not mean every other union has the same benefits. These local papermakers or other unions do not have these benefits. They have the same benefits as most other workers get from there companies. Health insurance, 401k, vacations. It is so easy to say make concessions. These workers have given most everything away already, there retirement, salary cuts, no pay increases, pay more for health insurance, they cannot retire on the companies dime, they have been asked to do more with less, and have done it. There is no more that they can give up. Do not forget, you can only give up so much and then you are not middle class anymore. Imagine if the company did not pay anything for health insurance, at least 40% of there pay would go towards paying for family insurance, dropping them out of the middle class. If the unions give up too much, what is the incentive for non union companies to continue with decent benefits, eventually none. Then geuss what happens, workers get angry, join together and demand to be treated fairly. Oops, thats called a UNION.

Anybody that thinks a union is anything other than one more "greedy American corporation" is a fool.

Fact is, union execs get their bloated salaries, golf outings, and Washington D.C. palaces off the same backs the "greedy corporations" do.

Unions are the patron saints of mediocre employees. Get real folks, this mill is gone. Time to look for another job.

Don'r say nothing about unions or you will be sorry. Believe me. But they are greedy. I didn't say that sorry.

Hottubherbie,

Mill is still there. Many of them already have another job, in the mill 8 miles down the road

gw2kpro,

There are some greedy union officials, but you really need to do your research on what unions have accomplished for this country. You are the fool.

I'm not anti-union or pro-union. I've worked in union shops and non-union shops. There's advantages and disadvantages to both.

I'm inclined to think that the evils of unions are vastly overstated by people who don't like them and the virtues of unions are vastly overstated by people who do.

Fact of the matter is, (for union shops as well as non-union shops) wages and benefits are going to be set by prevailing market conditions.

If wages and benefits in a given company are beneath the market, talented people are going to leave the company for greener pastures which puts the company at a competitive disadvantage from a talent standpoint. If wages and benefits are above market, the company is at a competitive disadvantage from a cost standpoint.

movethen -- National labor organizations (like the Teamsters, UAW, etc.) exist for one reason and one reason only; to make money and consolidate power. And the only reason they wish to consolidate power is to make more money. At the end of the day, any company exists in order to make money. At the end of the day, national unions exist in order to make money. Neither would continue to provide their services for free. If you disagree with me, petition your union to stop charging you dues and see how far you get.

The money that corporations make is taken directly from the backs of those who work for them (unionized and non-unionized employees). The money that unions make is taken directly from the backs of those who work for them (unionized employees). It's an interesting debate as to whether the corporation or the union is more greedy (they are both making their profits off the backs of average working joes).

If you disagree with me, please visit Washington D.C. and tour the palaces these organizations have built for themselves. They look a lot like the palaces that corporations build.

I understand exactly what you are saying, there are issues that need to be addressed. I have worked on jobsites where the union labor completely cripples the job. I have also worked on sites where the local unions are very easy to work with and do a good job. There are pro's and con's. The market conditions are set at a higher level because of these unions, thus ensuring a much higher percentage of people can call themselves "middle class". My whole point though is I don't agree with the people that call an end to all unions. This would definately lower our wages and benefits, along with many safe work practices. (I do understand there is more to that last statement then the unions) As in any type of organization, if there is corruption, it needs to be weeded out. You are correct, these unions (heads) do make money off these workers, but they also have very good retirement funds for them. Of course this depends on which unions and which parts of the country. Not our local papermakers though. My other point was to sledman, I am not sure what concessions he wants these men to take. I think he has some wrong assumptions as to what these men's pay and benefits really are.

Let's turn the mill here in Millinocket into a bridal shop for queers.

Do you really need a job that bad. You would have to come out of the closet. Now I know how you got your name hotTub, not a very good mental image.

You seem to love telling everyone your sexual preference, you brag about how much you wish you made. Loser written all over you buddy.

HOTRUBHERBIE................movethen would probably prefer that his client's have some hair on their balls. By the sound of your comments you ain't got any, much less a set with hair on em.

How do you like them apples? PUNK.

Bigfoot,

Don't bother entertaining this sad person. He is obviously very insecure about his sexuality and wishes he had the money everyone around him has. From posts in other articles, he does not have a clue about anything, business, government, economy etc. He cannot carry on an educated conversation or debate. Just another kid that was picked on in school that always had the smallest pencil and now is very confused.

hotrub, you and your girlfriend are both welfare ho's. Yes, I do know her and I will fill you in on a few stories later.

hot dub herbie,

that was intelligent. PUNK

Of course it was. ANYTHING is inteligent to you BIGMOUTHONIT.

Hot Rub,

I bet you'd give anything just to have a couple of wooden nickels to rub together.