Same-sex marriage measure advances

Rev. Bob Emrich you are very dissappointing.

Religion is a scam.

This is ridiculous! Wouldn't you think that Sen. Bliss is a little bias? Good luck Senator when you are up for re-election. You won't be there much longer. Hopefully Maine fights this all the way to the end..this is not needed in this state!

Next battle ; opposite sex people who don't want to get married but deserves the same bennies as everyone else for putting up with each other for many years or Major discrimination .

Inclue that Sen Bliss on your LD1020 or I'll have to think your a discriminator against single people.

Beelzebubba, You better hope its a scam 1 second after you leave this world. (I don't think so)

damn straight...score one for the gays! This is awesome

This is very good. I'm excited that there was this much endorsement. And beelzebubba, I'd like to one up you by saying ORGANIZED religion is a scam.

Peace.

This is an outrage! Morality has just taken a major hit! I have never been more ashamed to be a citizen of the State of Maine!

Mainesurvivor, what, you're not proud to be an American? For shame!! Go sit in the corner!

Is this really good? I don't believe so. All this is doing is driving deeper the wedge of polarization between us members of society. It is creating social unrest & it is destructive. It's pulling politicians away from the higher issue of resolving unemployment.

Everyone needs to understand we are all citizens of the state & country. Instaed of bickering back & forth about our own interests, everyone must realize we need to compromise our own selfish special interests so the state & country can work togther to slow the pending cataclysmic economic disaster that is unfolding before our very eyes. It won't matter if your gay or straight when unemployment is 30% - 40% - 50% which is exactly where it is headed.

I say we call a truce & force our politicians to fix the economy.

This comes as no surprise, unfortunately.

Who cares what 11 people in Augusta think. They need to put it up for vote. The legislature in Maine has trouble doing what the people want.

11-2-1? Rights for everyone are no rights for some.

Vote these bums out .The state house must be full of gays.Sick a man marrying a man this is metal illness.They will wreak Maine .This is unreal no real man in the state house or what? There is only two that voted right.Put there names in print the ones who voted for and against.I dare you Bangor Daily we will vote them out and go against anything they bring forth they are on the devil side.

i agree it should be voted on but it looks like it will be shoved down our throats just like a lot of other issues that should have been voted on the people should decide peace

i would like to know who voted for this so i can make sure they get voted out gays are sick they need help not marriage.

You can look at who voted for and try to take them out of office but this is such a non-issue, you will have a hard time not finding people who voted for it running on that vote. 11 of 14, that is a resounding yes, congratulations for seeing right from wrong (or that right is wrong ;) ) I applaud the strength and courage of the people who moved this forward......great job maine.....peace

Please, Jarrod Crockett, tell us what you think is a constitutional issue; ever heard of the Fourteenth Amendment?

http://www.mpbn.net/News/MaineNews/tabid/181/ctl/ViewItem/mid/1858/ItemId/10283/Default.aspx

Like the guy who "doesn't know what art is, but I know what it isn't," Jarrod Crockett doesn't know what a Constitutional issue is. The Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to the US Constitution provides that "no state shall...deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#Am14

Freshman Crockett's opinion of what a constitutional issue isn't includes no explanation why he rejects the Fourteenth Amendment and similar protections in Maine's Constitution.

But, Jarrod only began law school in 2003, and just graduated in May 2006 http://www.virginiamountaineer.com/backissues/5-18-06/page4.html , from "The Appalachian School of Law [which only] began offering its law degree program courses at its Grundy [Virginia] campus in the fall of 1997." Even if "The Appalachian School of Law exists to provide [the] opportunity for people from Appalachia and beyond to realize their dreams of practicing law and bettering their communities[,]" unfortunately for and all Mainers [no apostrophe needed, Jarrod], neither Mr. Crockett nor his law school has sufficient experience, credentials or reputation to justify such astonishing arrogance and blatant ignorance as Crockett's dismissal of the US Constitution: "I don't see it as a constitutional issue, I don't think the U.S. Supreme Court has stepped to that point as of yet."

I PITY THE CHILDREN BEING RAISED IN THIS VERY SICK SOCIETY WE LIVE IN TODAY! PERVERTS EVERY WHERE AND GAINING THE RIGHT TO CORRUPT THE REST OF THE WORLD!

Yes JoyJessun.... I could not agree more these sick religious people that are perverting the honest good of religion is truly pathetic.

MY feeling is, if a gay couple in my town decided to marry, that would effect me, how?

Marriage is not a legal term for a right as defined under equal protection. Marriage is a societal convention with deep religious/spiritual roots, that pre-dates this nation by a couple thousand years. You want a civil union or some other similar method to share rights, then great. Knock yourselves out. But don't try to play games and call it "Marriage". You already stole the word "Gay" from us queerly enough. You know that marriage licenses were developed as a way to prevent close relatives from producing krazy-kromosome-kids, and as a way to make money for the state. Used to just have a marriage certificate from the church, and that was good enough. Doesn't seem like there are a lot of religious openly gay people around though, especially not on these comment pages. All they seem to do is call people religious zealots, or say to keep religion out of the marriage question. Well, I don't think you can, because if you take that element out of "Marriage"....well then you're left with a civil union. So there.

“If the landmark civil rights legislation of the 1960s had only been sent out to voters, it would have failed,” Damon said in a statement. “We are elected to make these decisions, tough as they may be. It is what we are here to do.”

LOL I think you need to re-check your history books, and can you really be that arrogant??? Thank you Mr. Legislator for knowing what is best for me. And FYI, I am pretty sure that we vote for candidates to represent US. Not what YOU think we need.

I think this pretty much sums up the entire liberal agenda. They are "enlightened" and much much smarter than us regular folk. They are going to do what they think is best for us, whether we agree or not.

Hey, not all religious people are against gay marriage. My religion is very supportive and I don't think it's fair that some people of different religious beliefs (namely the Mormons and Christian Evangelicals) are trying to enforce their beliefs on to me. We have religious freedom in this country for a reason. Keep your religion to yourself. These legislators are dealing with a legal issue here.

Legislators are "hired" by their constituents to be "experts" that are obligated to look at the bill through the prisms of law and Maine’s constitution, not religion. I'm impressed that after contentious public hearings the committee vote was 11-2 [1]. In my opinion, rational legal analysis prevailed. For opponents: what part of EQUAL don't you understand?

The legislators of this state are not sworn to uphold popular opinion, but rather the Constitution of our state and the United States. Every member of the House and Senate is responsible for making a good faith effort to discern the meaning of these documents and make sure that their vote is within the bounds of that meaning. While this does not necessarily preclude a vote going either way, in cases where equal protection is at issue, the duty to uphold the Constitution of the United States trumps popular sentiment. I believe this is such a case and we must hold our legislators accountable for votes that are at odds with the duty imposed by their oath.

The preceding statement should not be read to imply that I think the people and popular opinion are against marriage equality, only that this issue is beyond the constitutionally tenable discretion of the legislature to fall back on public opinion. Ultimately, I think our state will do the right thing and the people of Maine will go down in the books as being on the right side of history.

If your opinions are anti gay, anne_of_mdi will use her 10 identities to "thumb down" and hide your valid views. Scroll back 24 hours, click on "hidden" comments and you'll see what I mean. ALL of the hidden comments are anti gay, and there is nothing wrong what-so-ever with being anti gay! This forum is flawed and being manipulated by a very few pro gays with an agenda. Don't allow this to happen people. Stand up for what is right! Stand up for morality!

A lot of the arguments used by the anti gay marriage crowd are very outdated. Let's examine a few of those. They say homosexuality is a choice. That is very laughable and false.

-Virtually all major psychological and medical experts agree that sexual orientation is NOT a choice

-Most gay people will tell you its not a choice

-Common sense will tell you its not a choice

While science is relatively new to studying homosexuality, studies tend to indicate that its biological.

http://www-news.uchicago.edu/releases/03/differential-brain-activation.pdf

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/sex/dn14146-gay-brains-structured-like-those-of-the-opposite-sex.html

Gay, Straight Men's Brain Responses Differ

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,155990,00.html

http://www.livescience.com/health/060224_gay_genes.html

http://www.springerlink.com/content/w27453600k586276/

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2008/06/16/172/

And it should also be noted that:

"It is worth noting that many medical and scientific organisations do believe it is impossible to change a person's sexual orientation and this is displayed in a statement by American Academy of Pediatrics, American Counseling Association, American Association of School Administrators, American Federation of Teachers, American Psychiatric Association, American Psychological Association, American School Health Association, Interfaith Alliance Foundation, National Association of School Psychologists, National Association of Social Workers, and National Education Association."

I shall ask you this. Are you male? (If not, reverse the questions to the other gender) If so, Are you sexually attracted to other men? Would you be able to enjoy sex with a man? Do you get sexual urges with a man? Do men turn you on sexually and emotionally? Could you be happy with a man sexually for the rest of your life? Does male/male porn or male sexual situations turn you on and arouse you? If you are heterosexual, the answer should be no. Otherwise, you might either be bi-sexual or homosexual, and might want to re-evaluate your sexuality. It is well known that a lot of homophobes deny their homosexuality by being aggressive towards it, until they finally accept it. Most people know this is not a choice, and it would be ignorant claiming it so. I know a few gay people who went to a straight club when they were figuring out their sexuality, where women were putting their naked bodies all over them, giving them naked lap dances, not once did the gay men get it up or aroused. But just the picture of a naked guy gets them up easily. Tell me thats choice. Also, why would a gay person, knowing that you will have a rough time in society, knowing that you cant get married unless you live in certain places, knowing that people will pick on you for it, knowing that your closest friends and families might completely turn their back on you, choose to be gay, if they could easily be satisfied by the opposite sex? Because they can't. Simple logic there.

Another argument is that homosexuality is a sin. This is false. It's people twisting the words of the Bible to support their anti-gay agenda. This was done as well in the past, against different races, against women, to keep segregation, to keep slavery. Passages were often taken out of context, as they are with homosexuality.

Homosexuality is not a sin according to the Bible. Any educated Christian would know that. Scholars who have studied the Bible in context of the times and in relation to other passages have shown those passages (Leviticus, Corinthians, Romans, etc) have nothing to do with homosexuality. These passages often cherry-picked while ignoring the rest of the Bible. The sins theses passages are referring to are idolatry, prostitution, and rape, not homosexuality. I suggest you read the following links to see what God really says about homosexuality. God loves everyone, and never claimed that same-sex love or marriage was a sin.

http://www.cavalierdaily.com/CVArticle.asp?ID=10620&pid=805

http://www.jesus21.com/content/sex/bible_homosexuality_print.html

http://www.christchapel.com/romans_inter.html

http://www.stjohnsmcc.org/new/about/homosexuality.html

http://www.gaychristian101.com/

Thats why Jesus never mentions it as well. There is nothing immoral, wrong, or sinful about being gay. Jesus, however, clearly states he HATES hypocrites. If you preach goodness, then promote hate and twist the words of the Bible, you are a hypocrite, and will be judged and sent to hell. Homosexuals will not go to hell, hypocrites will.

This is very similar to the religious bigots of the past, where they took Bible passages to condone slavery, keep women down, and used Bible passages to claim blacks as curses who should be enslaved by the white man. People used God to claim that blacks marrying whites was unnatural, and not of God's will. We are seeing a repeat of history here.

If you are religious, read the proper interpretations in the above links. There is plenty of proof that homosexuality is NOT a sin.

Mainesurvivor: For it to be immoral, it has to be wrong. I have yet to see a single valid argument showing homosexuality to be wrong. It's not. Even if you you bring religion into this, homosexuality isn't wrong.

writestuff: You are a respectable religious person. I wish more would open their eyes.

GurnBlanston: So you're saying we should have kept racial segregation of the 1960's intact? Thank you for affirming your racism and bigotry. That's why we have government, to preserve the equality and other values in our national Constitution. If you have a problem with that, then there's many other countries that would suit you, that don't believe in freedom and equality. You are free to move there. You are advocating treating people different because of their skin color, or their sexual orientation, when there is no good reason to. We are all equal in this nation.

GurnBlanston: Marriage existed far before Christianity and other religions. Also, your argument fails because if it really is a religious institution, then why do you allow atheists to get married? Why single out gays? Separate but equal is not a viable option. Past history (Jim Crow Laws, etc) show this doesn't work. And you're wrong on your final point. There are a lot of gay folk who are religious, but with accepting churches, churches that don't twist the Bible out of context to support their homophobic agenda. Homosexuality is not a perversion to religion, people like yourself are a perversion to religion, and leading to its decline.

icuucme: Just because you find gays disgusting, isn't grounds to take away their rights. If we took away marriage from everything we found disgusting, nobody would be able to get married. Everyone has different views on what's disgusting.

Sledman: Fine, after we get our rights, we can call a truce.

fairpoint: And why exactly is equal rights not needed in Maine?

I understand that the homosexual community is crafting a petition to supplant the King James Bible with the Polari Bible for use in civil and ‘church-ordained’ unions (aka. marriages). See: http://www.thesisters.demon.co.uk/bible/. Of course this comes as no surprise since the obfuscation of God and His word was at the heart of this issue from the beginning..

Adam and Eve!!!!!!!!!!!!

From a statement issued by Janet (née Reno) Napolitano of the Department of Homeland Security in the year 2010 concerning the language utilized by extremist Christian terrorist groups…

"It is hereby mandated that all right-wing terrorist groups refrain from using certain labels, slurs and terms of disparagement once popularly accepted but now considered pejorative and in strict violation of government policy, e.g.: the custom of implying ‘perverse’ sexual behavior to CITOYENNES or groups of CITOYENNES of the same GENDER MODALITY , denigrating them as “Homosexuals”, “Gays” (pre-CLN context), “Lesbians”, “Sodomites”— and/or worse; the vilification of Abortion (archaic) and Euthanasia — vis à vis the efficacy of pro-choice and mandated SABBATICALS — as acts of “Infanticide” and “Murder”; and the disenfranchisement of popularly accepted world-view philosophies, such as Paganism, Satanism and Witchcraft, as reprehensible, cultic alternatives to Christianity."

queequeg, would you mind citing where you got this, I can't find it when I do a search.

Maybe you should move to England to fight this bible thing.

Dear little apis florea with the dualist nature.... I suggest that you supplement "your infallible research" via the WWW with books and magazines.

So queequeg, are you saying I won't find this bit of information on the Homeland Security site?

“I want my kids to grow up in a place where everyone is treated equally and fairly and with respect,” said committee co-chairman Sen. Lawrence Bliss, a South Portland Democrat who is openly gay.

So do I so bring back prayer in the public schools!

ShadowMan, take a deep breath and count to ten. Calm down, man.

ShadowMan @4:55am, if you don't think homosexual behavior is wrong or immoral, then you have some serious issues, and there are millions and millions of people that feel the same way I do! So don't feed me that crap that your behavior is in any way, shape, form, or manner correct behavior.

Great post Shadowman, 4:41 AM.

I'm not sure butI think about 14 states in this country allow marriage to children as young as 13 years with the parents consent. In this state under this law we would recognize a marriage made in one of those states. Thus making it legal to be a pedophile. Let the voters of this state decide.

politicallyincorrect and others, if we bring prayer back into schools it would need to be done in accordance with Freedom of Religion, wold it not? Do you suggest that all religions be allowed equal time? I doubt it. And that would be unconstitutional. Public schools are public meaning that they are open to all children regardless of religion. Christian and other religious-funded school are free to pray based on their own religious beliefs and that is according to the separation of church and state - the government cannot interfere. That being said, the 'church' cannot dictate in publicly funded schools that all children can be compelled to conform to anyone's specific beliefs. My wife and I are protestant and if we want our children to be led in prayer it will be in our church, in our belief system and not yours.

JeffDubay: I wasn't aware i was mad :O I'm just spreading facts to fight ignorance

Mainesurvivor: For something to be immoral, it has to be wrong. So i'll ask you, what makes homosexuality wrong? Provide me with valid evidence, and maybe you'll have an argument. However, i must warn you, this is one debate i have yet to lose.

anne_of_mdi: Thank you :)

The gay people think there cause is a great cause because they are so ulgy they can not find a real date they might as well find a good pet.Because they don,t care what they have in there mouth.This state house needs to be over hauled vote the bums out.

Anne Bean-Letourneau from Masr, an arrondissement of Bar harbor, ME:

’Tis now the very witching time of night,

When churchyards yawn and hell itself breathes out

Contagion to this world: now could I drink hot blood,

And do such bitter business as the day 280

Would quake to look on. Soft! now to my mother.

O heart! lose not thy nature; let not ever

The soul of Nero enter this firm bosom;

Let me be cruel, not unnatural; 284

I will speak daggers to her, but use none;

My tongue and soul in this be hypocrites;

How in my words soever she be shent,

To give them seals never, my soul, consent!

poormainiac: What does under-age marriage have to do with homosexuality? You are comparing 2 completely irrelevant things.

That was nice "Queequeg." If you must copy and paste, Shakespeare is always welcome. ;-D

poormaniac, the state that allow marriage under the age of 18 are through parental consent or judicial consent. So now you want to dictate to other states, parents and courts what they can and cannot do? You really should find a country that supports your beliefs and government regulation. See ya!

mousehunt: Lol where to begin with your ignorant post. It might be because gay men have no sexual attraction whatsoever to women? You know how women arouses you, catches your eye, makes you go "damn she's hot", well the same happens to gay men but instead with other men. Also, your post talks about "don't care what they have in their mouth" So how come you assume homosexual only means "male/male"? Last time i checked, homosexuality involved both gays and lesbians. Are you that insecure about your sexuality?

Personally, I can't wait to get married to my man. We've been together 10 years and to have our comittment to each other recognized by the state is a wonderful thing. These are the first steps to a Federal recognition of marriage equality! Go Maine!!

You bigots are a disgrace. Homosexuality is not a mental issue. Just like being ignorant isn't like most of you people. What people do in the privacy of their own home is their business. You people are no better then the kids that threw Charlie Howard over the bridge. You are ignorant, and embarassment and I wish you all would leave this state. Move to Alaska and you can help Sarah Palin reproduce.

It's coming folks. Another instance where a "few" rule over the majority. Democracy is dead in this country. We are living in sad and evil times. Our country cannot stand against all of this political, "me, me, me, my rights, my rights stuff! " The only groups with no rights now are Christian whites. Our beliefs are maligned while we are to stand mute when it comes to any others beliefs or wants. There are things I'd like "my" way too, but because it does not promote the "common good", I cannot have them; this is how a democracy works. It is not all about ME and what I want. It's about the common good. I am sick and tired of being shouted down by minorities who want more, more, more (and contribute less and less and less) and tired of the pacificity of our country in giving them what they want to assuage a common guilt because he have prospered. . . . .

Shouldn't ALL Americans have the same rights? YES!

Christian whites have the same rights as everyone else. If you are discriminated against because you are Christian or because you are white, you have the same remedies as everyone else. Remember, the oppressor can't be the oppressed!

Beelzebubba said Regigion is a scam,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, if it a scam,, where did he come from??? And where is he going when he dies?

Liberal BIG JERK,,,,,,, YES YOU PUT YOUR DIAPERS ON AND GO ON YOUR WAY YOU KNOW IT ALL,,,, EINSTEIN

ITS THE MAINE LIBERALS THAT IS CAUSING ALL OF THIS MESS THAT MAINE IS IN,,,,, TWO MOM AND TWO DAD,,,,, NICE

I'm truly pleased with the decision and am very hopeful that as a Christian and openly gay, I can raise a family with my partner of four years and show the some of greatest gifts God has given to all:

Love

Compassion

Fairness

DOWNEASTDAVE IS A JERK

THIS IS MAKING ME SICK EDUMOOKIE ARE YOU DEALING WITH A FULL DECK????????

You don't have the SAME rights as others if you're a single guy with kids. You surely don't. We're in line next after the GLBTQ's.

No, there's nothing wrong with being anti-gay. But there is something wrong with coming in here and calling people vulgar names and whatnot. If you don't want your comments thumbed down, then maybe you should be more intellectual in your debate here, and spend less time calling homosexuals perverts and every other name you use to TRY to downplay your ignorance. Many of the posts above by the non-supporters of this bill are also barely readable. Can we say go back to elementary school and learn sentence structure and grammar? Oh, and spelling as well?

Personally I am so glad for the advancement of the support for this bill. But I do think that it should be voted on by everyone in the state, in order to get a fair view. I know that, yes, people who do not support this have sometimes very hateful, ignorant, and illogical views as to why it should not be passed, but they live here too. If it gets voted down, which I highly doubt, then we can always bring it forward again.

People who live in our state and the United States as a whole are a very different sort of people than who lived during the signing of the Constitution. Many things have changed since then and we still uphold the basic principle of it. Maybe some of them who signed it would be against it, but maybe that would be because they don't have half the knowledge and understanding as us in the 21st century. There is religious freedom in this country. Marriage was not made by your god. I am happy that you have something to believe in, but I, along with MANY others, do not have this belief. It has no definite date as to when it was started and no one has any "rights" over the word marriage, or the word gay. This bill has only to do with TWO CONSENTING ADULTS. Nothing in there about marrying a child, your first cousin, your pet, multiple wives/husbands, etc. All this is just proof that non-supporters will throw anything into the mix to get people to look at your point of view.

Tolerance and accepting change is the only thing that is going to change our state, our nation, and the world for the better. Violence and hatred and war come from people's inability to accept others differences and values. When we start looking at all humans as being our equals, then we will all be able to achieve some sort of peace in our world. Until then, small steps towards the goal are what makes it happen. And there will be more posts with anti-gay speech in them, but look at what you are posting and what others have posted and think about what is really fueling the non supporters argument. It is fear and hate and the fact that some think they are better than others.

Peace.

viper13: So i assume you were against interracial marriages, desegregation, end of slavery, etc. This country is not a democracy, it's a democratic republic. Get it right. The majority argument is laughable just by a simple look at history. And churches have no rights? That's the funniest thing i heard all day. In fact, you have special rights. Last time i checked, you don't have to pay taxes.

edumookie: Amen. I hope that Maine will become the fifth state to allow gay marriages.

kateindfcity: Very well said. The one good thing about our Founding Fathers is that they knew things change, and designed our Constitution in a way that allowed these changes to take place.

There is a passage, a vivid and lurid narration transcribed to memory from my days in Victorian London that instinctively came to mind when I first heard the narration recounted. Of course, Doctor Freud’s counsel and professional treatment enabled me to effectively demystified the psychological ramifications of Biblical folklore. Notwithstanding, the events in Amsterdam conjured reminiscences which, if not solely for the regressive impressions aroused, are worthy of mention for the unusual. How eerie the words once more upon my lips, when there came at the close of day to the house of Lot two travelers from afar. [And] …before [these men] lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? Bring them out unto us, that we may know them. And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, and said, I pray you, brethren, do not do so wickedly. Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof. And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door. So also was it with those whom the Security Guard Associates encountered.

Shadowman - go back and read the Bible in its original languages - prior to translation - and you'll find the word for homosexual used throughout to describe the abomination. Man "exchanging what is natural for that which is unnatural." Pretty clear to anyone who understands and does the actual research. Be sure you actually know what the Bible says before you try to "correct" anyone. You are held accountable for spreading false teaching. Note: nowhere did the "hate" appear in my post.

windfuture: You have your history wrong. Let us examine what "abomination" really meant in Leviticus in the context it was used, and the Romans passage you quoted.

---------------------------

Leviticus 18:22:

"You shall not lie with a male as those who lie with a female; it is an abomination."

This was not referring to homosexuality. Both of these verses refer to heterosexuals who participated in fertility rituals in order to guarantee good crops and healthy flocks, not homosexuals, there is absolutely no mention of sexual orientation or homosexuality. Also, the word abomination was used for anything that was considered to be religiously unclean or dealing with any type idol worship.

The Hebrew word "toevah" was used in Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13. "Toevah" has been translated in our Bibles as "abomination" or "detestable". The "toevah" was used throughout the Old Testament for activity involving ethnic contamination and religious idolatry. "Toevah" refers to things that were ritually unclean - like eating pork.

It is significant that another Hebrew word, "zimah," also translated "abomination," which means intrinsic evil or evil by its very nature, was not used in Leviticus 18:22, or Leviticus 20:13.

Further proof that this passage does not involve homosexuality, is you will notice is the lack of lesbian relationships throughout the old testament. Because its not talking about sexuality, its talking about idolatry.

--------------------------------

Now onto your Roman passage that you quoted.

If taken out of context, this passage seems to condemn homosexuals. However, when Romans 1:26-27 is considered within the context of Romans 1:16 through Romans 2:16, the Scriptures clearly present a different teaching.

Paul was writing to the church in Rome. The Roman church had become troubled by divisions related to spiritual pride. Paul was addressing the Christians in Rome and teaching about the pagans in Rome. After declaring the power of Christ's gospel to save all, he pointed out that the religious people of Rome had refused to even acknowledge GOD as one of their many gods. They had turned their backs on the one true living God and worshiped handmade idols. Paul explained that as a result of their idolatry, every part of their lives had become corrupt and vile.

Paul then told the Roman Christians that they were not to judge others. To judge others is to condemn yourself (Romans 2:1). Christians are to love others out of their brokenness and into the healing wholeness that is found in Jesus Christ.

The Greek word Paul used, that has been translated in our Bibles as "natural/unnatural", relates to that which is against one's own inherent nature (i.e., heterosexuals engaging in homosexual acts). It was also related to Paul's concept of what was culturally acceptable. The same Greek word is used in I Cor. 11:14-15 in reference to correct hair length for men and women and in Gal. 2:15 in reference to Jews and Gentiles who were such by "nature." Paul emphasized that IDOLATRY (not homosexuality) was the evil which resulted in temple prostitution, sadomasochism, and lack of regard for others.

------------------------------

In summary, neither Romans nor Leviticus condemns homosexuality. They were referring to idolatry and other sins. You can read more about this in the following links:

http://www.cavalierdaily.com/CVArticle.asp?ID=10620&pid=805

http://www.jesus21.com/content/sex/bible_homosexuality_print.html

http://www.christchapel.com/romans_inter.html

http://www.stjohnsmcc.org/new/about/homosexuality.html

http://www.gaychristian101.com/

It becomes evident that homosexuality is not a sin in the Bible.

I wonder who windfuture thought he was posting as just now. Mainesurvivor perhaps?

drc480 - you don't know me, so why judge me? We should be living in a society that is tolerant of other's opinions. How is my marriage going to negatively impact your life?

I belong to the Catholic Chuch and anyone who is for this bill is not a true Catholic. If you would read the Catechism ( I do not belive that many Catholic know what it is) it will tell you all about same sex marriage======= let me tell you what it says about same sex marriage---- A covenant or partnership of life between A MAN AND A WOMEN ==== MAN AND WOMEN------which is ordered to the well being of the SPOUSES and to the procreation and up bringing of CHILDREN,....when validly contracted between two baptized people narruage is a SACRAMENT ( MATRIMONY) CAN A MAN UPBRING A CHILD? CAN A WOMEN REPLACE A MAN?? IF A MAN CAN UPBRING A CHILD, LET ME KNOW SO WE CAN USE HIM AS A SIDESHOW,,,,, A TRUE CATHOLIC THAT BELIEVES IN HIS FAITH

Good to see that the"regular family person" is here today.

Evangelical Christians are not forcing anything onto anyone. We are simply standing up for the truth and against an evil. Nearly every right that every person in this country has and enjoys comes directly from the law of God. Once again we fall into the trap of Satan that tells us we can do what we want without the consequences of God correcting us. "You may eat of the fruit and you shall become like God, you will not die," said the serpant to Eve. Homosexuality is a sin, this is clearly unmistakenly outlined in the old testament and in the New Testament. Jesus taught us that a MAN shall leave his mother and father and cleave only unto his WIFE and the two shall become one. Allowing this mockery of marriage is to erode and to destroy how this country was founded and the princles on which it was founded. "Woe to the nation that forgets the Lord is their God, for they shall be turned into hell...." I'd say as a nation it's time for us to repent, we seem to be facing some hellish things in this country.

I see all these posts from the far left quoting the bible and interpreting it to fit their twisted views, reminds me of those that twist the Koran and Muslum teachings to justify the murder of inocents. If our founding fathers knew what we had done to this country, they would roll over in their graves. I dont believe in discrimination, but not allowing gay marriage is not discrimination. You can have the rights afforded by it, but not the title.

Totaly discusting

seriously people,...who cares what a bunch of mortal men wrote in a book a million years ago??!! the bible was never meant to be taken literally,..and don't you think people can grow and change and have different standards,..i mean do we still stone people to death in our country? i mean come on people seriously,...back away from the organized religion,...stop being so extreme.

MaineSurvivor - "This is an outrage! Morality has just taken a major hit! I have never been more ashamed to be a citizen of the State of Maine" You obviously have a major problem with the gay marriage issue....I have one question....besides the fact that it goes against YOUR religion WHAT AFFECT DOES THIS HAVE ON YOUR PERSONAL LIFE? None.....if you are in a relationship I would think that is all you need to worry about. Morality has taken a major hit? There are bad people on both sides of the coin...there are bad christians (i.e. every Catholic priest that has fondled a child), there are bad gays...Morality is an every kind of human being issue.....Stop treating homosexuals like they are some kind of alien race and you are better than them.....They are just as every bit of a human as you are!!!!!!

Hey JoyJessun! I didnt realize all "the gays" are perverts! Wow.....again I revert you to my comment on catholic priests fondling innocent children!!!!!!!

BLUEHILL96 - "MY feeling is, if a gay couple in my town decided to marry, that would effect me, how?" WHY CANT MORE PEOPLE THINK LIKE YOU DO!!!!?!?!?!?!?!

On 4/28/09 at 9:57 PM, writestuff wrote: Repeated separate thumbs down will cause comment to be hidden

Hey, not all religious people are against gay marriage. My religion is very supportive and I don't think it's fair that some people of different religious beliefs (namely the Mormons and Christian Evangelicals) are trying to enforce their beliefs on to me. We have religious freedom in this country for a reason. Keep your religion to yourself. These legislators are dealing with a legal issue here.

THANK YOU WRITESTUFF!!!!

Marriage is only a religious act if you make it be!!!!!! Let the legal decision be made!!!!! I wish more religious folks were a little more opened minded like yourself!

When will folks realize this will happen. It may not happen today or next week but it will happen. And Maine is well on its way!

Well said MarkLuxe. Whatever happened to separation of Church and State? When we allow religion to inform government policies and legislations, this country will fold on its ears.

drc480 -

I cant believe you were looking at your Catechism when you typed your response -- unless of course your Catechism editor is totally inept. The word is womAn not womEn. If YOUR Catechism supports polygamy, then gay marriage is a moot point for you!

I guess if you are not a true Catholic you can ( if this comes to a vote) vote ya on this ungodly issue. Its the same as the abortion issue,,,,,, only a true Catholic will vote the bill down,,, but as a true Catholic I will pray for every one ( if the bill passes) that ( same sex) pray is all us as true Catholic can do for them

Thanks Diana22. I agree like totally, the Bible was written like totally a million years ago, so it would so extreme for us to like have laws against stealing, killing, raping, adultry, etc. I think we should like through out the whole idea of doing what is right because a group of people like totally can't be natural. Disorganized religion makes much more sense. Like come on, seriously.

drc480: The only problem with the procreation argument, is you would have to take away marriage from heterosexual couples that don't or can't have kids, and old couples that get married that also can't procreate. But i don't see your church doing that. Singling out gays once again?

getreal: Homosexuality is not a sin. I suggest you read the links i posted above, and stop torturing the Bible's words to support your anti-gay agenda. Jesus also never mentioned anything of homosexuality or same-sex marriage. The line you brought out is talking about heterosexual marriages. And it's funny you are against gay marriage, but then talk about the principles our nation was founded on. Last time i checked, those principles included equality of all people. Contradict yourself much?

viking: The problem is, i've read your interpretations from your side. Unlike you, i've actually read both sides. And here is what i deduced - The anti-gay side cherry-picks lines, takes them out of context, and just says it's wrong with no evidence, and ignore the rest of the Bible. They even added the word "homosexual," a word that wasn't even used this way till the 1800's. The other side actually looks at and relates the historical times, provides plenty of evidence using the Bible itself, looks at the Bible as a whole, relates the context to other lines and passages, interprets them properly, doesn't distort their meaning, translates the Greek words properly and sees how they are used in various locations of the Bible to get a clear definition, and provides sufficient evidence. It's easy to see why the latter wins out.

Diana22: Agree 100% that the Bible should not regulate everyone's lives. However, a lot of people here use the Bible improperly as a weapon, when the Bible itself never considered homosexuality is a sin unless the lines are taken out of context. More religious people need to see the truth, and the other interpretations.

DRC480- My grandmother was a born and raised roman catholic... she was also a lesbian. Catholics... hmmmm dont they have perverted preists that have an infatuation with little boys????

like, tootally dude!! sniff sniff.

getreal: You wrote: "the Bible was written like totally a million years ago, so it would so extreme for us to like have laws against stealing, killing, raping, adultry, etc."

I don't need a book to tell me not to kill, rape, etc. That's common sense. But you also forget the parts where the Bible condones slavery, considers women 2nd class citizens, has mass violence, has passages that tell people to stone people to death as punishment, says not to eat pork, says not to wear mixed fabrics, etc etc. Yes, seems quite a bit outdated if you ask me.

MISTYPED SORRY ABOUT THAT , and if u are not a Catholic why do u care?? All that I m saying is if you are a true Catholic you should vote no on this same marriage bill,, that the Liberals are trying to pass

People use the bible as a shield, to protect them from the unknown. People against gay marriage, that are using the bible or religion as an excuse are scared of something they don't understand. So rather than standing up and saying wait, i want to know more, they throw up this storybook and say everyone else is wrong. They need to be educated on the ways of same-sex marriage. No one is trying to take anything away from heterosexual couples. Gay couples were born the same as everyone else, with the same rights. But everyone changes as they grow, some choose to be followers, some choose to be leaders. You can't move forward without change. More religious nuts need to put the book down and take a look around. I think judging people for being different, unique, for being themeslves is a sin. Being a follower is a sin. Use your 'god'-given talents, 'god'-given rights and your free will the wasy it was meant to be used, to MOVE FORWARD. This is 2009 for christs sake.

Congratulations, bravo, woo hoo! I am so proud to live in Maine.

Shadowman - get a real understanding of what you are talking about. Get to know the cultural implications as well as the historical. FInd out the meanings behind the sewage that you are spilling about. There is a much deeper reason behind it. Study - then speak!

well I guess there are more gays than I figured in Maine and less folks that go to Church,,,, Close

How do you gather there are more gays in maine than you figured? Where would you get 'figures'? Does a straight person standing up for what is right make then gay to you?

I never cease to be amazed by people who twist scripture to justify sin but, hey, if it makes you feel better go right ahead and tell yourselves homosexuality isn't an abomination. Furthermore, ministers and other religious leaders who support these gay marriages are not true disciples of Christ. Of course, the great thing about America is that people have the freedom to worship and believe in any religion they choose. Ultimately, God will sort it all out but at the rate we're going He's going to have to apologize to the people of Sodom and Gomorrah because their sins pale in comparison to the decadent morass into which America has slipped. Queequeg- if you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, then baffle 'em with bullcrap.

OMG you cannot be serious?!?!

Romans 1:26-27 (New International Version)

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

That clearly states that the act ofhomo-sexuality is sin. It even states that those who commit this sin will be punished.

We are all sinners. We are all inclined to sin. Some it's stealling, excessive drinking, gossip, laziness...there are all kinds of sin. Attraction to the same sex is one of them. So is sex outside marriage. The point I'm making is we all sin. I know what my weakness are. I know what I can be tempted by. I know what can cause me to sin. I pray that God gives me the strength to fight those temptations. The sin of lust is one of the greatest temptations to fight. If it be for man for man or woman for woman or out side the marriage it has to be fought. As a married couple, there are days you look at your spouse and say that person drives me nuts. I'm sure I do the same to him. It's a decision I make to stay in my marriage and work it out because I know I am not perfect and I know that despite my faults and weaknesses and difficult times we have been through we will make it as a couple. I know that decision I make is pleasing in the eyes of God. I know He will be there to help me.

Despite all the bantering that goes on in this comment section, I know one thing. My own temptations have really helped me to grow. They have made me stronger and wiser and more compassionate. Still a long way to go. Our temptations are can be used to make us holy. Why some our tempted by certain sins, I don't know why. Maybe environment, trauma in our lives. But I know we are to overcome, we are to conquer our temptations. I take something bad and I fight it with God and give it back to Him. These temptations came with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden. We are left to fight that battle. And we can...that fight is what holiness is. With God we can. God is merciful, God is love and He is just.

I can not judge the person who has the temptation of lust or any other sin. But I can judge the sin. I can call something for what it is.

Maybe next year, our proud politicians in Augusta, will allow someone to marry their dog! Pathetic!!!

Same-sex marriage has NOTHING to do with marrying dogs silverado you sick prick. Is that all you have in your pathetic excuse for a brain?

drc480: Real catholics preach love and tolerance, not discrimination.

vchapes: yeah, the Bible has been misused like this in the past as well, to keep segregation intact, to condone slavery, to keep women from working and voting. On a good side note, we are progressing at a decent rate. This year, gay marriage was legalized in Vermont and Iowa, as well as the European countries Sweden and Norway. It's also will be legalized in 2010 in Nepal, being the first Asian country to do so. And it's being debated in many other states and nations as we speak. It is sad though that in 2009, the United States, which is supposed to be the leader of freedom, is dealing with this issue that shouldn't even be an issue.

williamson: Except you haven't rebutted a single one of the things i posted. See, the problem with the anti-gay side a lot of the times, you say things like "sewage" but cannot back yourself up or your arguments. You say all those things yet provide no proof.

nurse54: Lol, did you even read any of the links i posted. If you did instead of being blind and believing what you're told, you will see the Greek word abomination translated had more to do with idolatry, not homosexuality. The only people who are not true disciples or Christ are people like yourselves, preaching hate, intolerance, oppression, and hypocrisy, all sins in the Bible. And it's funny you bring out Sodom and Gomorrah without actually understanding it. Let us examine Sodom and Gomorrah: Scriptural Viewpoint: Sodom was a lush beautiful region of land whose inhabitants had known the goodness of God. Despite their exposure to, experience with, and witness of the one true loving Creator, the people of Sodom had rejected a relationship with God, and turned to numerous types of idolatry. When God's messengers were sent to the city, the men of Sodom responded by threatening the ultimate act of violent abuse, murder, disrespect and humiliation. They were going to rape God's representatives.

All other Old and New Testament references to Sodom involved the sins of idolatry, inhospitality, indifference toward the poor and the rejection of God's messengers. There are NO REFERENCES to same sex acts or homosexuality. How you get same-sex couples out of all that is beyond laughable. I suggest you actually take a look at the following links, instead of blindly following outdated material

http://www.cavalierdaily.com/CVArticle.asp?ID=10620&pid=805

http://www.jesus21.com/content/sex/bible_homosexuality_print.html

http://www.christchapel.com/romans_inter.html

http://www.stjohnsmcc.org/new/about/homosexuality.html

http://www.gaychristian101.com/

Oh and one more thing. Since a lot of religious people follow the Old Testament here, i thought i'd throw this out:

1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath.. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

Silverado: If you can't distinguish the difference between a human and a dog, i feel very sorry for you :)

ShadowMan- Impressive!!

Elizabethann: You are misinterpreting Romans. That had nothing to do with homosexuality. Paul was writing to the church in Rome. The Roman church had become troubled by divisions related to spiritual pride. Paul was addressing the Christians in Rome and teaching about the pagans in Rome. After declaring the power of Christ's gospel to save all, he pointed out that the religious people of Rome had refused to even acknowledge GOD as one of their many gods. They had turned their backs on the one true living God and worshiped handmade idols. Paul explained that as a result of their idolatry, every part of their lives had become corrupt and vile.

Paul then told the Roman Christians that they were not to judge others. To judge others is to condemn yourself (Romans 2:1). Christians are to love others out of their brokenness and into the healing wholeness that is found in Jesus Christ.

The Greek word Paul used, that has been translated in our Bibles as "natural/unnatural", relates to that which is against one's own inherent nature (i.e., heterosexuals engaging in homosexual acts). It was also related to Paul's concept of what was culturally acceptable. The same Greek word is used in I Cor. 11:14-15 in reference to correct hair length for men and women and in Gal. 2:15 in reference to Jews and Gentiles who were such by "nature." Paul emphasized that IDOLATRY (not homosexuality) was the evil which resulted in temple prostitution, sadomasochism, and lack of regard for others.

I suggest you read the following links before twisting the words of the Bible to support your anti-gay agenda:

http://www.cavalierdaily.com/CVArticle.asp?ID=10620&pid=805

http://www.jesus21.com/content/sex/bible_homosexuality_print.html

http://www.christchapel.com/romans_inter.html

http://www.stjohnsmcc.org/new/about/homosexuality.html

http://www.gaychristian101.com/

WooooHooooo! Get on the phone and call your senators and tell them that you support LD 1020 as written today!

To fellow posters who lean republican on the issue of gay marriage, read this article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/29/us/politics/28web-nagourney.html?emc=eta1

I personally dont care about the religious aspect of it , I believe it defies human nature and purpose , and the nature and purpose of all creatures on earth .

How does gay marriage defy the nature and purpose of all creatures on earth? I don't think it has an impact on the chipmunk population. I really do want to know how it defies human nature and purpose tjbc. It is nature to homosexuals, just as it is nature to you to be heterosexual.

Homophobia or Holiness?

The Bible and Homosexuality

Published by Word of Life Baptist Church

copyright © 1992, Fred G. Zaspel

It was not that long ago in our country when if a person chose to practice homosexuality he had to be careful to hide it. If news of it got out he would be ostracized in one way or another, because our society viewed homosexuality as something extremely shameful.

Gradually, however, homosexuals have become increasingly open about their lifestyle, describing it in more positive terms ("gay") and defying anyone who would dare to even suggest that it is in any way improper. Such is the societal "progress" which our generation has witnessed.

Regularly, homosexual demonstrations are given the wholesale endorsement of the news media. People who abhor the practice as immoral are dubbed "homophobics" as though they now should be the ones in hiding. So now the evil of homosexuality has been surpassed by the evil of "homophobia." To be opposed to homosexuality has become the sin rather than the homosexuality itself. It is no longer enough for homosexuality to be legal -- it must be given moral approval.

I find all of this both morally wrong and personally offensive. Homosexuality is socially destructive, contrary to nature and, more importantly, contrary to the law of God. It is wrong in every way, and decent people should not have to hide that fact. To pretend that evil has become good does not change the fact or render the evil any less wicked. It is not that we are afraid of homosexuality ("homophobia"), but we do not apologize for being opposed to it.

Now we cannot approve of the personal violence against homosexuals which the media has been reporting. (By the way, what the media will not report is the many more acts of violence by homosexuals against those who have spoken out against their sin -- a trend growing by the day.) But neither should we be forced to conform to immoral ideals, "politically correct" though they may be. We resent being frowned upon as unreasonable or unenlightened because we insist on proven standards of decency. Opposition to homosexuality is not shameful -- it is homosexuality that is shameful, as are all forms of immorality.

The prophet Isaiah and the apostle Paul both warned of the days to come in which evil would be paraded as good and good as evil. That day has come: the ethical ideals of our society have become so warped that moral vice is openly defended against virtue.

Moreover, decent people must refuse to be pressured by it all. We must not allow an immoral minority or even a majority to dictate to us what our standards will be. Our standards come from a higher authority. Holiness before God is our goal -- not acceptance by sinners.

Moreover, God's law has been proven best and safest. We dare anyone to deny that the present AIDS epidemic would be unheard of today if men and women had simply obeyed the law of God. The social diseases and social breakdown which our generation has witnessed have not come as a result of moral decency but as a result of immoral indecency. That fact remains unanswerable.

Shame and sin can only be defined by God. A degenerate society may seek to call good evil and evil good, but still it is they who bear the shame; we do not.

tjbc1975: The procreation argument fails, because as i said before, you would have to take away marriage from heterosexual couples that don't or can't have kids, and old couples.

If you are referring to procreation in general, that argument also fails. The procreation argument lacks as it still doesnt prove that homosexuality is wrong. The only purpose of life isnt to procreate, and there are many other ways individuals can be useful and beneficial to humanity. And the only purpose of sex isn't to procreate. Sex is also an expression of love, intimate bonding, and pleasure between two consenting partners. If sex was only to continue life, why is there so much pleasure? There is no ill meaning of sex by itself, its a natural instinct. There is no proof that sex must absolutely equal creation of life. That being said, some heterosexuals cannot have kids. Majority of heterosexuals practice safe sex, use condoms, perform anal and oral sex, masturbate, and perform other sexual acts that aren't vaginal intercourse that dont have the intention of procreating. Almost everyone does those things. By your logic that means heterosexuals are wrong as well. Also, the notion that homosexuals can't have kids is false, as artificial insemination, IVF, and surrogacy and other methods can easily lead to a child. Oh, and they can adopt too.

Shadowman...you know how I discern that? God gave us sex to pro-create. The fruit of sexual union should be children. Same sex relationships cannot pro-create. Sexual pleasure is to remain within the marriage. The sexual act itself is ordained by God. God is creating through man and woman. God is the third person in that sexual union. A union where there should be trust, respect, tenderness and the giving and receiving of love.

Yes, we have failed in many marriages, moms and dads to take our roles as a people to live within that union. We have failed ourselves, our children, our world and we are seeing the fruits of that.

4Him2day: There's several things about your outdated 20 year old article of ignorance. The very first paragraph alone discredits it, by saying homosexuality is a "lifestyle" or "choice" Most educated people know this is false. Science and biology are continuously proving that assumption wrong.

-Virtually all major psychological and medical experts agree that sexual orientation is NOT a choice

-Most gay people will tell you its not a choice

-Common sense will tell you its not a choice

While science is relatively new to studying homosexuality, studies tend to indicate that its biological.

http://www-news.uchicago.edu/releases/03/differential-brain-activation.pdf

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/sex/dn14146-gay-brains-structured-like-those-of-the-opposite-sex.html

Gay, Straight Men's Brain Responses Differ

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,155990,00.html

http://www.livescience.com/health/060224_gay_genes.html

http://www.springerlink.com/content/w27453600k586276/

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2008/06/16/172/

"It is worth noting that many medical and scientific organisations do believe it is impossible to change a person's sexual orientation and this is displayed in a statement by American Academy of Pediatrics, American Counseling Association, American Association of School Administrators, American Federation of Teachers, American Psychiatric Association, American Psychological Association, American School Health Association, Interfaith Alliance Foundation, National Association of School Psychologists, National Association of Social Workers, and National Education Association."

The article you posted also mentioned that "it's contrary to nature and contrary to the law of God" Read my posts before this one, it's already proven that homosexuality is not a sin according to the Bible. Also, it also is not contrary to nature, because homosexuality is well-documented among thousands of species of animals. So by definition, it is natural. He then mentions Paul Romans, which, when interpreted properly, had nothing to do with homosexuality.

In conclusion, i just found about 5+ things that are wrong in that article, and why it shows ignorance, and how science, logic, and reasoning all prove it wrong.

rather than listen to shadowman and and his garbage might I suggest you go directly to the source itself and read the bible. There are great study bibles available written by biblical scholars, a much more credible place to start than homosexual web sites that totally distort the truths of Gods word.

The Bible on Sexuality

Most people seem to think that the Bible was written in an old dusty monastery somewhere where any ideas about sexuality were always presumed sinful. The Bible, they seem to think, only condemns sexuality outright.

Quite the opposite is true. This old monastic view of sex did not come from the Bible at all. In fact, the Bible affirms that human sexuality is a part of humanity as God created it. It is God, not the devil, who put this appetite within us. Sexuality is not basically evil but basically good.

The rest of the story, of course, is this: just as God created us with the appetite, so also He placed upon us the stipulations and guidelines for the use of it. This is the fact that is overlooked by our society today.

When we look to the Scriptures to see what God has said about the matter we find that He has told us to enjoy the gift within this single limit: within marriage (marriage, of course, being that of a man and a woman -- the things you have to clarify these days!). "Marriage is honorable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge" (Hebrews 13:4). Surprisingly (to many), this is the only regulation.

But with this as our only regulation many other practices are ruled out. This stipulation alone militates against most all of what our society would have us believe.

The sins of our society are not unique to our generation. With this one guideline as its basic assumption, the Scriptures make specific prohibitions of certain activities which are as pertinent to our day as to its own. By very definition, "fornication" or "immorality" is any sexual activity outside the marriage union.

OK WAIT A DAMN MINUTE!!!! Homophobia has surpassed Homosexuality as a sin because it is judging behavior, judging thy neighbor (whatever it is, never read the bible) is a sin, is it not????

____

"Moreover, God's law has been proven best and safest. We dare anyone to deny that the present AIDS epidemic would be unheard of today if men and women had simply obeyed the law of God. The social diseases and social breakdown which our generation has witnessed have not come as a result of moral decency but as a result of immoral indecency. That fact remains unanswerable. " IS IT NOT IN THE BIBLE THAT WHEN THE FOREIGN LEADER REINS IT IS THE BEGINNING OF THE END???? I believe that would be OBAMA.

-- AIDS, are you for real?? Considering there is no PROOF of where AIDS came from, that is bogus. There is speculation, but not proof. Just because the first reported outbreak of AIDS was among gay men, doesn't men there weren't other cases. There's theorys of the infected meat being eaten, So if a straight man had contracted aids and passed it on to women, we would STILL have AIDS reguardless.

Elizabethann: If that were true, then how come many heterosexual couples i know that either don't or can't have kids, and old couples are still allowed to be married? LOL, did you say sexual pleasure remains within a marriage only? Many of your own Republican and/or religious side would even disagree with that one. Also, you go on the false notion that homosexuals cannot procreate. The only purpose of sex isn't to procreate. Sex is also an expression of love, intimate bonding, and pleasure between two consentual partners. If sex was only to continue life, why is there so much pleasure? There is no ill meaning of sex by itself, its a natural instinct. There is no proof that sex must absolutely equal creation of life. That being said, some heterosexuals cannot have kids. Majority of heterosexuals practice safe sex, use condoms, perform anal and oral sex, masturbate, and perform other sexual acts that aren't vaginal intercourse that dont have the intention of procreating. Also, the notion that homosexuals can't have kids is false, as artificial insemination, IVF, and surrogacy and other methods can easily lead to a child. And last time i checked, gay males still have sperm, and gay females still produce egg, so if need be, they can procreate if absolutely necessary, as long as the sperm reaches the egg. But that isn't necessary, since majority of the population is heterosexual. Your procreation argument fails on so many levels.

Doesn't anyone care about family traditions ? Passing on your name ? Do you really believe reproduction doesnt matter ? Do you think it would have an impact on chipmunk population if they all turned gay ? seems pretty obvious it would .

Homosexuality: What Does God Say About It?

The first reference to homosexuality in Scripture is in the infamous account of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis 19. The wickedness of the men of that city is obvious and is of such a severe nature that it brought divine destruction upon the entire city. Both Peter and Jude make reference to it and describe the sin of homosexuality as " ungodly, lawless, unnatural and extreme immorality" (see 2 Peter 2:6, 8; Jude 7).

In Leviticus 18:22 and 24 homosexuality is described as an "abomination" and "defiling." It is reprehensible and unclean.

In Leviticus 20:13 it is again described as an "abomination" but here as one worthy of the death penalty!

Deuteronomy 23:17 forbade the presence of a "sodomite" in the land of Israel.

An incident similar to that of Sodom and Gomorrah is seen again in Judges 19. Again the sin of homosexuality is described as "wickedness."

In 1 Kings 14, 15, and 22 the removal of male prostitutes from the land of Israel is viewed as a sign of much-needed spiritual reformation.

The prohibition in Deuteronomy 22:5 of women wearing men's clothing appears to be a specific condemnation of transvestism.

In Romans 1:18-32 the apostle Paul condemns the practice in the severest terms. Homosexuality is "unclean," "impure," "dishonoring to the body," "vile," "degrading / disgraceful," "contrary to nature," "unseemly/ obscene," "improper activity of a depraved mind," "unrighteous," "wicked," etc. Of particular importance to the apostle in this passage is the fact that homosexuality is "unnatural"--contrary to nature. In other words, nature itself teaches that the practice is wrong; we all know it intuitively. Homosexuality is, then, a particularly rebellious sin.

In 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 the apostle Paul speaks of homosexuals as "effeminate" and "abusers of themselves with mankind" who "shall not inherit the kingdom of God." The terms he uses here seem to be specific references to both active and the passive participants in a homosexual relationship. Such people are "unrighteous," he says, and if they remain in that practice they will be condemned.

From all this we can draw at least the following three conclusions:

1) Homosexuality is contrary to Scripture. There is no way to speak of any kind of acceptable or "Christian" homosexuality. There is never any allowance for it. It is never anything but sinful.

2) Homosexuality is contrary to nature. It is a particularly rebellious sin, a violation even of one's own conscience.

3) Homosexuality is worthy of severe judgment. The Mosaic law prescribed the death penalty for this sin. The apostle Paul specified that such people have excluded themselves from the salvation that is in Christ Jesus and are headed toward condemnation.

Homosexuality and Society

Also of interest is what the apostle Paul says in Romans chapter 1 about that society which approves of homosexuality. He says that God will "give them over to their reprobate minds."

Now some have attempted to take this as a kind of Divine permission, but it is more than abundantly clear that Paul is not saying that! Rather, he is speaking in terms of judgment. He is saying that if men stubbornly persist in such activity God will simply leave them to themselves--and that is precisely the worst thing that can ever happen to a man! What every man needs, what every society needs, is for God to interrupt the downward spiral of sin and turn us back to Himself! Apart from this we would all be condemned!

Significantly, then, a society's approval of homosexuality is itself both worthy of Divine judgment and a sign that judgment has already begun to fall! It is the ultimate sign of its final step downward in decadence.

What this implies about our own society is frightening.

4Him2day: Lol, so your rebuttal is "garbage" Typical anti-gay poster. No proof or argument =) And those are religious websites, that show the real meaning of those passages often cited out of context. And like many others, you have failed to rebut a single argument of those passages, except saying "garbage" And in your second post, again you fail to provide any evidence. You rather just say, God is against it, cite like one passage that is irrelevant to homosexuality and is referring to heterosexual marriages (that doesn't necessarily mean that's the only marriage it condones). And more importantly, you just proved yourself wrong and show why we have to legalize gay marriage according to your argument. You say fornication is forbidden. That's why we need to allow gays to get married, to eliminate fornication. Of course, this isn't a problem with gays in Vermont, Iowa, Canada, South Africa, Sweden, etc etc. because those places are up to date and gay marriage is legal there :)

Cultural Norms?

Many today object that the Bible's prohibition of homosexuality reflects not a Divine mandate but a narrow bias dictated by an ancient and unenlightened culture. But this ignores the fact that the Bible is not merely the opinions of men but the very Word of God.

Further, when Paul condemned the practice in his letters to Rome and Corinth, he was not writing to his Jewish brethren who condemned the practice but to Gentiles who lived in a pagan environment which condoned it.

Moreover, the sinfulness of homosexuality is not established only by specific Biblical prohibitions but also by the fact that it is all sexuality activity outside of marriage that is condemned.

Finally, as Paul points out, it is not a specific denomination of the Christian religion that con demns homosexuality as wrong but nature itself. Every man and woman knows intuitively that this practice is wrong.

MaineSurvivor:

Anne is not the one with the many identities. You are very misinformed and not very observant.

Shadowman:

Thanks for shedding some light!

Anne:

Yeah, "Queequeg." (in quotes)

Kate123:

Thanks for reminding some of Charile Howard. That has to have been one of the saddest , most horrific things to happen to a human being. There is a plaque about Charlie in Bangor near the bridge where it happened. NEVER AGAIN!!

I don't remember who first posted this quote on BDN but - "Belief in a big boogey man in the sky defended ONLY by a book written by the hand of MAN is pure hatred." I love it and it's true. Who wrote the bible? Who preaches the bible? MAN! Who has seen and spoken to 'god'? NONE.

I agree with Shadowman 110%. If it's all about procreation, why are some heterosexual couples unable to reproduce? Homosexual couples offer the same love as a heterosexual couple would. I WOULD KNOW. My grandmother was a lesbian, my mother straight, twice married, i was mostly raised by my grandmother and her partner. I felt nothing but love and acceptance. It wasn't weird to me, I loved them with all my heart. I witnessed the hell they went through just to be happy in life. They were both nurses at EMMC. Had they been your nurse, you wouldn't have known the difference. You would have been treated with the same compassion and respect as anyone else without question of their sexuality. I although do somewhat disagree with the 'no choice of sexuality' comment. Some people may be born gay, but some experience extremely traumatic events that alter their lifestyle.

vchapes: LOL see how some of these religious people contradict themselves? (Not referring to all religious people, just those select few in here that are making me chuckle) That's a clear sign of hypocrisy, something that Jesus clearly stated he hated.

To the other guy about AIDS: AIDS originated from Africa. The first thing that you need to realize is that HIV/AIDS is the result of a virus that really doesn't discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation, in fact the overwhelming majority of those who suffer from this condition around the world are as the result of sexual acts between heterosexuals, mostly among African heterosexuals. You really should keep up with the research, because you've lapsed into almost complete ignorance.The Human Immunodeficiency Viruses (and there are at least two that have been found) that are responsible for AIDS have been in the human population for at least the last century. They originated as a similar virus (SIV) found in apes in Africa and probably crossed the species barrier a number of times and in a number of different ways. HIV/AIDS had been killing people on a relatively small scale around the globe when ease of travel increased the movement of people begining in the late 70s and early 80s.

http://www.avert.org/origins.htm

Causes of Homosexuality

It seems that there are some factors that work as contributing causes of homosexuality. Researchers have found that faulty family roles have contributed to the practice. For example, many homo sexuals come from homes with "smothering mothers," over-dominant mothers, or often-absent and/or disinterested fathers. Others come from homes with physical and/or sexual abuse.

But judging from what Paul says about it in Romans 1, homosexuality is rooted in rebellion against God and against conscience. Nothing can change the fact that every man is in the image of God and as such has an intuitive awareness of the basic principles of right and wrong. Homosexuality is one particular vice that is obviously wrong to everyone.

The most recent explanation is that people are just "born that way." Let's think about that. Let's say a man is born a kleptomaniac. Should society give him the freedom to steal? What if a man has a natural tendency toward adultery? Should it be approved? You see, the question is not that of psychological predisposition. The question is one of morality -- and one of obedience. To practice homosexuality is a choice of the will. Whatever affinity anyone may or may not have for it, to practice it he must choose to do so. Scripture describes it as always wrong, and so to choose to practice it is always sin.

But think about this claim of "natural tendency" a bit further. It is a denial of the fact that according to what God says no one is born that way. There is no such thing as a homosexual child. Homosexuality is "unnatural" and contrary to conscience. It is practiced only and always out of rebellion.

Everyone interprets religion how they think it suits them I'm sure "gaychristian101" interprets it to their advantage .

If homosexuality is normal and God condones it and reproduction isnt our purpose , why didnt he create Adam and Steve?

ShadowMan:

re 9:17 AM

"Your procreation argument fails on so many levels." So true. I can think if a most recent example of a couple in their 40's with one biological child.(she gave birth to that son) However, due to some medical reasons, age,etc. and wanting another child, they went the surrogacy route. They are now expecting twin girls and are overjoyed (the whole family is.)

Thanks for your clarification.

If 'god' created Adam and Eve and they supposedly populated the world, that would make us all incest. then where would blacks come from? STUPID STUPID STUPID.

tjbc1975: At one time, family traditions was to keep a white man and white woman, black man and black woman, etc separate. Tradition isn't always good. And second of all, you can't change your sexual orientation. You cannot "turn" gay or "turn" straight, unless you are bi-sexual. Your notion that the human race is in danger because of homosexuality is false due to the following facts:

1) The fact is that majority of the population is straight, and small minority are homosexual, and has been that way since the beginning of time. Mother nature has a nice balance between the two.

2) The fact that homosexuals come from heterosexuals, and its rare for every kid to come out gay.

3) There are millions of species of animals, and not one of them has every individual of that species gay. The closest thing is the bonobo monkey, where it is documented that about 50% of the species is bi-sexual.

4) No species has ever been observed to die out due to every member becoming homosexual.

Mother nature has provided proof here, the chance of this scenario is virtually 0. You are also assuming that homosexual's can't procreate. The notion that homosexuals can't have kids is false, as artificial insemination, IVF, and surrogacy and other methods can easily lead to a child.

Unrealistic Expectations?

This points up another related issue. The claim that "they come by it naturally" implies that homosexuals have no control over their appetites and are driven by irresistible passions that no rational person could expect to be suppressed.

The famous counsellor Dr. Ruth recently spoke to an audience of high school students and openly stated that their natural sexual drives were too great to be suppressed until marriage. Reasonable people know that expectations of chastity until marriage are unrealistic.

But all this ignores one basic fact. Men and women are not animals! They bear God's image and as such have the capacity to choose if and how and when their sexual appetites will be satisfied. The popular excuse to the contrary degrades humanity to the level of a beast and denies its dignity as the crown of creation.

Moreover, even those who promote this "can't help it" philosophy often acknowledge the contrary. If a man wants to have premarital relations with his fiance, for example, and she wants to wait, he is told he must wait also. The point is clear: we have power over our passions -- and we know it.

The same can be said about the excuse, "But it is such a fulfilling relationship! We love each other!" In such a position we are responsible to sort out priorities and make choices accordingly. Our love for God and our obedience to Him must supersede all other loves and loyalties.

We are capable of and responsible to choose what is right. To do anything else is always wrong.

vchapes: I am sure that your grandmother was a wonderful person and no one is disputing that or saying that homosexuals aren 't good people. However, marriage should stay between one man and one woman. Unfortunately, unless your grandmother sought true heartfelt repentence, she is not in heaven today.

Allowing gay marriage is not going to turn the whole world gay. We are OVER-POPULATED as it is. There will still be heterosexual couples reproducing (even tho most should be sterilized) and then there will be homosexual couples using artificial insemination. The argument of procreation is pointless.

I'm not worried as to where she is fairpoint. I know she is in a better place than she was here on earth. Heaven, whos to say she isnt? Maybe she got to heaven and 'god' embraced her with open arms, and thanked her for using his gifts to make a difference.

OK, now that my rights have been violated...my right to a sacred, traditional, instituition between my wife and myself, I think I will propose legislation recognizing marriage between heterosexual couples as being "Traditional Marriage" and therefore eliminate association with what my wife and I consider a dilution of the significance of our commitment. This is lunacy! I don't know why or how the gay agenda is allowed to decieve the public into thinking that not recognizing gay marriage is a violation of their rights is beyond me. You know what? I have may opinion...Respect it and I will respect you. Otherwise, I find inflamitory comments made by people who accuse me of being discriminatory as adversaries who I must resist. You are bringing this division on yourself. Reference "Mr>" Hilton's comments regarding Miss CA. Unbelievable is the buffoonery!

Why is it that every gay marriage articles that comes up, you have the same evangelical shmucks on here going on and on and on and on about bible quotes. They just love to spew their arrogant believes on here don't they? If they WOULD ONLY take the time doing things that make the world a BETTER place like helping the sick, elderly, environment, etc; instead of spending it on here railing against anything that does not fit into their narrow view of the world; they wouldn't be HATED so much. I would LOVE to hear what people like 4him2day, MariaS, Saddlemomma, bigfoot etc ACTUALLY contribute to society. Can any one of you please tell me what GOOD things you do??? I doubt little if ANYTHING. NO, They have to keep pushing and pushing and pushing the religious BS that is STRICTLY a PERSONAL faith with NO place in government or human rights.

I am sure we will soon hear some close-minded redneck idiot saying... "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve." I mean really... your religious lives must be truly PATHETIC if all you can do is go out and ATTACK anyone who does not possess the same narrow views that you do. I do not mean to offend any spiritual people who have an individual personal and private relationship with their god. BUT for the EVANGELICALS... ENOUGH IS ENOUGH already! We heard you 10,000 times already. You sound just as foolish now as the first 9999 times. Go do something that makes a difference! Thank you.

Shadowman...you pick and choose what you want to believe. What is this?...the gospel according to Shadowman......the first sin. The sin of pride. You are telling God what you want Him to say and do. I will not be so arrogant as to tell God what I consider to be sin. We can choose to say "no" to God but there are consequences.

Believe what you want to believe, mainbad. That's everyones right. The issue isn't about believing its wrong, its about equal rights as people. I dont think illegal mexicans should be allowed in the states, but they are and whatever. But its equal rights.

4Him2day: I've proven all those wrong. Let me cut and paste this to prove that homosexuality is not a sin. I will prove one by one each passage you mentioned and showed they had nothing to do with homosexuality, and how you are twisting God's words to condone your bigotry.

---------------------------------

Sodom And Gomorrah: Scriptural Viewpoint: Sodom was a lush beautiful region of land whose inhabitants had known the goodness of God. Despite their exposure to, experience with, and witness of the one true loving Creator, the people of Sodom had rejected a relationship with God, and turned to numerous types of idolatry. When God's messengers were sent to the city, the men of Sodom responded by threatening the ultimate act of violent abuse, murder, disrespect and humiliation. They were going to RAPE God's representatives.

All other Old and New Testament references to Sodom involved the sins of idolatry, inhospitality, indifference toward the poor and the rejection of God's messengers. There are NO REFERENCES to same sex acts or homosexuality.

-----------------------------------

Leviticus: Both of these verses refer to heterosexuals who participated in fertility rituals in order to guarantee good crops and healthy flocks, not homosexuals, there is absolutely no mention of sexual orientation or homosexuality. Also, the word abomination was used for anything that was considered to be religiously unclean or dealing with any type idol worship.

The Hebrew word "toevah" was used in Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13. "Toevah" has been translated in our Bibles as "abomination" or "detestable". The "toevah" was used throughout the Old Testament for activity involving ethnic contamination and religious idolatry. "Toevah" refers to things that were ritually unclean - like eating pork.

It is significant that another Hebrew word, "zimah," also translated "abomination," which means intrinsic evil or evil by its very nature, was not used in Leviticus 18:22, or Leviticus 20:13.

Also, it is very significant that female same-sex relationships are absent from the old testament. This is further proof that it was not talking about sexuality.

------------------------------

Deuteronomy: Sodomite, as shown above, does not refer to same-sex couples.

------------------------------

In 1 Kings 14, 15, and 22: Are you associating prostitution with homosexuality? This clearly proves you are twisting the words of the Bible to support your antigay agenda.

------------------------------

The prohibition in Deuteronomy 22:5: There's a difference between a tran-gendered person and a homosexual. This is even more laughable.

------------------------------

Romans 1:18-32: This also had nothing to do with homosexuality. Paul was writing to the church in Rome. The Roman church had become troubled by divisions related to spiritual pride. Paul was addressing the Christians in Rome and teaching about the pagans in Rome. After declaring the power of Christ's gospel to save all, he pointed out that the religious people of Rome had refused to even acknowledge GOD as one of their many gods. They had turned their backs on the one true living God and worshiped handmade idols. Paul explained that as a result of their idolatry, every part of their lives had become corrupt and vile.

Paul then told the Roman Christians that they were not to judge others. To judge others is to condemn yourself (Romans 2:1). Christians are to love others out of their brokenness and into the healing wholeness that is found in Jesus Christ.

The Greek word Paul used, that has been translated in our Bibles as "natural/unnatural", relates to that which is against one's own inherent nature (i.e., heterosexuals engaging in homosexual acts). It was also related to Paul's concept of what was culturally acceptable. The same Greek word is used in I Cor. 11:14-15 in reference to correct hair length for men and women and in Gal. 2:15 in reference to Jews and Gentiles who were such by "nature." Paul emphasized that IDOLATRY (not homosexuality) was the evil which resulted in temple prostitution, sadomasochism, and lack of regard for others.

------------------------------------

Corinthians 6:9-10: Another commonly cited

First of all, before we address this line, let us consider one thing. Supposedly taken from a 2000+ year old book, understand that the word "homosexual" was not coined until 1869 by Austrian-born novelist Karl-Maria Kertbeny. So how it happens to be included in a true reading of the particular biblical passage should make you ponder how accurate the interpretation actually is. So man changing the words of the Bible to conveniently spread hate? I think so.

Now onto the interpretation, i've included the original Greek words as well where it's relevant.

Paul was attempting to educate the new Christians in Corinth as to what Godly living was all about. In verses 9-10, he listed ways of living that were not compatible with a Christ-centered life. In verse 11, Paul reminded them that they had been saved out of those destructive ways. There are two Greek words in I Corinthians 6:9, which sometimes are translated with a homosexual connotation.

First word, "malakoi" or "malakos" - it literally means soft or mushy; it can mean spineless, wishy-washy or without backbone. "Malakoi" was used four other times in the New Testament and it always meant "soft." The context of I Corinthians seems to imply a moral softness or decadence, a failure to stand up for what is right and godly. It is significant that for several hundred years there was no sexual connotation assigned to this word.

Second word, "arsenokoitai" or "arsenokoites" - it literally means, "males having sex." Early commentaries on I Corinthians related "arsenokoitai" to male temple prostitutes and to men having sex with boys. (Idolatrous prostitution and pedophilia are always wrong for those seeking to honor God.)

Homosexual relationships were known in the Greco-Roman culture of Paul's day. The Greek word commonly used in reference to adult male same sex partners was "arrenokoites." Paul did not use this word. Instead, he created his own, "arsenokoitai." If Paul had intended to condemn all adult male same sex partners, he would have used the common word for it.

----------------

So in short, i have proven you wrong on every single one of those passages you mentioned. Homosexuality is NOT a sin in the Bible. Some of those passages you derived are simply laughable and have not one ounce to do with homosexuality.

I think adoption is wonderful , children deserve the chance for happiness and a family,but you will never replace the bond between a parent and their child and two gay men are not going to have the same effect raising a child , neither are two women .

I know it wont wipe out the human race , thats obvious , I dont believe in born gay , I think it is becoming more acceptable choice of lifestyle because people dont want to express their real opinions on any kind of minority because people decide they are racist for having an opinion.

DowneastDave- tjbc1975 is that close-minded redneck.

tjbc1975: If you are using the Adam and Eve argument, then you must also condone incest, also condone only 2 races (every other race that came afterward of Adam and Eve must be wrong by your logic) see why that fails?

4Him2day: Your causes of homosexuality is also false. So where are the sources to these research? Also, i'm gay myself, and i always had a powerful father figure. So much for that logic.

More on the causes and biological implications

http://www-news.uchicago.edu/releases/03/differential-brain-activation.pdf

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/sex/dn14146-gay-brains-structured-like-those-of-the-opposite-sex.html

Gay, Straight Men's Brain Responses Differ

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,155990,00.html

http://www.livescience.com/health/060224_gay_genes.html

http://www.springerlink.com/content/w27453600k586276/

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2008/06/16/172/

Also, you say it's a choice. Before we debate any further, let me ask you this. Are you male? If not, then let me know and we'll reverse these questions. Are you sexually attracted to other males? Would you be able to enjoy sex with a man? Would you be able to be sexually and emotionally satisfied with a male for the rest of your life? Do men turn you on and arouse you? Answer those questions and prove to me it's a choice.

I turned out fine being raised by 2 women. I actually turned out better, i feel. I was due to be born on my mothers 17th birthday, parents divorced when i was young, there goes mother/father upbringing, mother worked 24/7, grandmother and partner took care of me. I am extremely liberal. I see both sides. Id rather see both sides than see nothing because my head is stuck up my asss.

I'm not a closed minded redneck , I just dont want my childrens next holiday from school to be for Perez Hiltons birthday and I dont want my tax money going to pay for Gay history month teachings at school.

But you will pay for Black History month? Why can't we have White History month??? oh, right, we'd be racist! Too bad!

sorry, not pay, approve of.

chersully2000: Yeah np :)

4Him2day: You might want to open a science book once in a while. Human's are considered animals along with all the others, though more intelligent. Sorry, but the mere fact that you ignored this is simply even more laughable. I have proven every single one of your arguments in relation to science and homosexuality in the Bible wrong. But remember you said it was a choice, so answer those questions in my last post :) I'll be awaiting your response.

fairpoint: It's not a sin to be homosexual.

mainbad: And how would Bob and Joe getting married change your sacred, traditional, institution between you and your wife? Traditional marriage used to be a white man and white woman, black man and black woman, etc. Want to go back to those times?

downeastdave: The worse part is they are misinterpreting these Bible quotes to spread their bigotry. That's the sad part. Using God to spread hate.

Elizabethann: Lol, how am i being prideful? You have resorted to making up feelings for myself now since i disproved every single one of your arguments against gay marriage?

tjbc1975: Where is scientific proof of that? And you say you believe it's a choice. Science proves you wrong.

http://www-news.uchicago.edu/releases/03/differential-brain-activation.pdf

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/sex/dn14146-gay-brains-structured-like-those-of-the-opposite-sex.html

Gay, Straight Men's Brain Responses Differ

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,155990,00.html

http://www.livescience.com/health/060224_gay_genes.html

http://www.springerlink.com/content/w27453600k586276/

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2008/06/16/172/

Also let me ask you this. Are you male? If not, let me know and i'll rephrase these. Are you sexually attracted to other males? Would you be able to enjoy sex with a man? Would you be sexually and emotionally satisfied with a male for the rest of your life? Do males arouse and turn you on sexually? Answer those and get back to me. You say you have an opinion. I have facts to refute that opinion.

The Vandals are advancing on Rome!

I'm male , and no men dont get me aroused . Sorry . I'm not a racist , I'm actually white as snow and my wife is Hispanic. vchapes I'm sure your family was great to you , I never said they werent , but a father son bond cant be replaced , deny all you want . It doesnt matter to me . Maybe you were lacking something or you wouldnt be on here cursing? You seem like an angry individual to me.

Shadowman I'm sure your an intelligent man , so you should be smart enough you can find "facts " to refute any opinoin if you look in the right place . Global warming is real , its fake , whatever , its pretty hard to take away someones opinion .

from a study on Grace to You.

There you have in very simple and direct indication that the reference to God's creative purpose. God created male, He created female. In chapter 2 and verse 23, the man said, "Now this bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh, she shall be called woman because she was taken out of man, for this cause a man shall leave his father and his mother and shall cleave to his wife and they shall become one flesh." God made male, zakar in Hebrew. God made female, neqebah in Hebrew and they were to come together to complete each other making one flesh. That is God's unalterable creative design. One man for one woman for life.

Now there are a number of ways that such a marital relationship in God's design can be convoluted and confused and perverted. It isn't very long actually in the book of Genesis until perversions of all kinds begin to manifest themselves. You have a relationship that surfaces in the sixth chapter of Genesis which appears to be a relationship in which fallen angels or demons cohabitate with woman and produce some kind of strange offspring, Satan's attempt to bring about some kind of perverted sexual relationship to produce an unredeemable race.

You move ahead from the fornication of chapter 6, a bizarre kind, to chapter 19 in Genesis and you have an indication of incest. It says in verse 36, "Both the daughters of Lot were with child by their father." Adding to fornication and incest, if you come over to chapter 34 you find here rape. "Dinah, the daughter of Leah, whom she had born to Jacob went out to visit the daughters of the land. And when Shechem, the son of Hamor the Hivite, the prince of the land saw her, he took her and lay with her by force. He was deeply attracted to Dinah the daughter of Jacob. He loved the girl and spoke tenderly to her," and the story goes on. Here is an incident of outright rape. We won't take the time to look in detail.

Who is angry? Not me.

tjbc1975: You wrote "I'm male , and no men dont get me aroused ." Thank you for proving to me that homosexuality is not a choice. I never said you were a racist.

ShadowMan:

They think it is "repulsive", in their words.

If they were so secure and sure of their own orientation and sexual identity, why would it bother them so much??!!!

ShadowMan:

Re mainbad and what you wrote: Yes, it is quite obvious that is what they would like to go back to!! Good luck!

Same-sex marriage should not be a relegious battle. Seperation of church and state. It should be viewed as an issue of equality. If you think it's wrong because a storybook says it is then whatever, but this is NOT what it's about.

The 7 deadly sins:

1) Envy

2) Gluttony

3) Greed

4) Lust

5) Pride

6) Sloth

7) Wrath

Hmmmm, don't see homosexuality on this? I do see at least 3 of these sins in just about EVERY post on this thread, ie, greed, wrath, envy. I guess we ALL have some kind of sin in us, after all. Even the holier than though Bible preachers.

and more

Go to chapter 38 and in chapter 38 you have another perversion and this one is prostitution. It mentions in verse 15, "When Judah saw her he thought she was a harlot, for she had covered her face." Already harlotry exists, prostitution exists. There is an occasion other than the ones that I've read you about polygamy in the book of Genesis. So it isn't long after God has ordained one man for one woman for life that all kinds of perversions occur...fornications, adultery, incest, rape, prostitution, polygamy.

I dont approve of black history month either , I believe its racist towards whites and everyone else who cant celebrate their heritage , If your proud of who you are it doesnt make you a clan member , but try to have a white pride parade and see where it gets you.

Comparing homosexuality to incest, rape, prostitution??? get real.

tjbc1975: Lol, what does global warming have to do with anything in this thread? Second, you have yet to refute a single one of my sources. Sorry, but scientific facts and logic are real. You are bringing in irrelevant variables, but that doesn't fly by me.

4Him2day: You mention all this perversion, but where? You are talking about heterosexual marriages which have nothing to do with same-sex marriages. You also keep saying Satan this and perverted that, but fail to provide any verse that shows homosexuality wrong. That line you mention is referring to heterosexuals, i don't see anything about same-sex relationships in there. And again, i proved that the Lot story had nothing to do with homosexuality, yet you keep referencing it. You are trying to hard to twist the Bible's words to condone your hatred for gays, when in fact, there is not one passage in there that considers homosexuality a sin.

Also, you said homosexuality is a choice. So answer my questions then. Are you male? If not, i'll rephrase these questions. Are you sexually attracted to other males? Would you enjoy sex with a man? Would you be able to be sexually and emotionally satisfied with a man for the rest of your life? Do men arouse and turn you on? I'm still waiting for these answers :)

Exactly tjbc. If everyone is supposed to be 'equal' then what is the issue?

chersully2000: RIGHT ON!! If people were SECURE in their own ways, other peoples lives wouldnt be such an issue. It's turned into a popularity contest.

and then

And you can add to that the sin of homosexuality. For that you go to chapter 19 of Genesis. And I do want to spend some time in the details of this because it is our subject. Satan obviously is trying to pervert and confuse God's order. He has brought into human society all these other matters and now he introduces homosexuality. Apparently it became very widespread very rapidly, as did adultery, fornication, incest, rape and prostitution. And, of course, they're still rampant in the world today.

chersully2000: Yeah hehe. It is pretty well known that people who are gay tend to lash out at others in denial, until they finally accept their sexuality.

4Him2day: All those other perversions you mention have nothing to do with homosexuality. Try again.

I believe it will be shot down at a referendum, let's not worry too much yet. Marriage is a sacred union between man and woman. Geez, if it wasn't supposed to be, we wouldn't procreate much now would we?

A SACRED UNION.... it still will be sacred to whomever is marrying, will it not? When i got married i didnt fret over who else may have gotten married before me. Hell i wore a red dress and knee high leather boots in my wedding, on the front porch in a snowstorm. That was still sacred to ME.

and more

But apparently the city of Sodom was filled with all kinds of iniquity. If you can just make a note to read Ezekiel 16, you read in Ezekiel 16 a little bit of a listing of some of the sins characteristic of Sodom. The one sin that isn't mentioned in Ezekiel 16, but the one that is carefully detailed here and thus doesn't require a further mention is the sin of homosexuality. There were all kinds of iniquities characteristic of this particular city, but none of them was more shocking than homosexuality. Adultery and fornication and polygamy and incest and rape and prostitution are already present in the world by the time you get very far into human civilization and with them this sin of homosexuality, of course, rears its ugly head.

We have in this nineteenth chapter a fairly careful record of the kind of thing that was going on in Sodom and it gives us a good understanding. So we want to take it rather carefully. Look at verse 1. "Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening." These were two angels who were, by the way, along with the presence of God perhaps in a preincarnate appearance of Jesus Christ had visited Abraham and Sarah. The two angels came to Sodom in the evening. As Lot was sitting, the brother of Abraham, sitting in the gate of Sodom. "When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground."

4Him2day: Also, do you wear mixed fabrics, work on the Sabbath, eat shellfish, touched a football, have a tattoo, have long hair, sell your daughter into slavery, etc etc. Just wondering, since you do tend to follow the old testament and quote (wrongly i might add) quite a bit.

my global warming reference is to your "proof" of your opinion . Who says all your sources are right ? The people that wrote them ? I'm sure you can find articles saying the opposite .As far as my comment about not being attracted to men proving your point , Your wrong , that doesnt prove anything except I'm not gay .

keep reading

Now we know that angels can take on human bodies and take on human form. You will note that I just mentioned to you that two angels along with perhaps a preincarnate appearance of Christ, at least we know that God was present there in some way, had appeared to Abraham. We know that the writer of Hebrews alludes to this when he mentions that some people have entertained angels unawares. To entertain an angel unaware would mean that the angel had to appear in some form which was normal. And so angels occasionally do appear in a human form. And certainly holy angels can occasionally when it fits the purposes of God take on some kind of form which is or appears to be human. Two angels came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. He recognized the magnificence of these beings and he bowed down with his face to the ground.

"And he said to them, 'Now behold my lords, please turn aside into your servant's house.'" That's my house. "'And spend the night and wash your feet.'" That was not a derogatory statement about the condition of their feet, that was a common courtesy because everybody's feet were either dusty or muddy. That was simply a way of saying to come in and cleanse yourselves, take care of your physical needs. "That then you may arise early and go on your way." What he means to say to them is you better get out of town fast and you don't want to linger in the public square or anywhere where you can be observed. Here they were approaching the gate of the city and Lot runs, as it were, to them and says, "Hold it, you've got to come immediately to my house and you've got to be cared for there, spend the night and be fast on your way, early in the morning before anyone can notice you."

realist39: I wasn't aware that you have to be married to procreate. LOL some of the anti-gay arguments in here amuse me.

4Him2day: Sodom had nothing to do with homosexuality as i proved above. Also note, i'm aware that you're trolling :) And this is why you will fail as a troll. For those of you that don't know what a troll is, they basically are posters that take a side on any sensitive topic (religion, sexuality, etc) and post to rile up and anger other posters for their own satisfaction and fun. They usually dance around a central idea while ignoring all evidence (since their primary motive is to incite anger, not prove anything). Other troll behavior includes twisting your words out of context, name-calling, or doing anything that may get a rise out of you.

The best way to own a troll is to get under their skin. When a troll realizes he can't incite anger in people and or get a rise out of them, it irks him. They keep trying, but its fun watching them in desperation as they throw everything at you trying to get any kind of rise. They lose even more, because for each troll, it gives the pro gay marriage side the chance to spread facts and information about homosexuality, to get rid of ignorance. It's a win/win situation for us.

Oh and don't forget about this!

You said homosexuality is a choice. So answer my questions then. Are you male? If not, i'll rephrase these questions. Are you sexually attracted to other males? Would you enjoy sex with a man? Would you be able to be sexually and emotionally satisfied with a man for the rest of your life? Do men arouse and turn you on? I'm still waiting for these answers :) Unless you got something to hide about your sexuality.

ENOUGH scripture 4him2day- speak for YOURSELF. You are just pasting someone elses words. Is that what you truly believe?

vchapes.....do you have a job?

Yes, i run a company, I am at work now. Why are you looking for a job? Smartass

tjbc1975: I have never mentioned anything about global warming, nor does that have anything to do with this subject. So disprove my sources then. You question, but fail to disprove. Most of those sources are scientific sites and some are peer reviewed. LOL, exactly! You're not gay, so you don't have a choice. This is quite funny!

keep reading

They said, however, no. We'll just spend the night in the square." That's not a good idea. "He urged them strongly, so they turned aside to him and entered his house and he prepared a feast for them and baked unleavened bread and they ate." Just as Abraham had demonstrated kindness in chapter 17 to his angelic visitors, so does Lot. He's very kind to them. He must have known who they were. Must have recognized the magnificence of them.

My point about being married and procreating is UH DUH that it takes a a man and a woman, unless of course a lesbian couple can find a good "friend" to deposit their child for them!

vchapes: I've proven his interpretation of his scripture wrong, and he mindlessly keeps throwing it out there like it will make a difference lol. He can't win that battle, i have yet to see one passage from the Bible that actually condemns homosexuality.

It may take a man and a woman, but they don't have to be married. Close friends even 'donate' to each other to have children, but no intimate relationship.

Actually realist38, Pfizer does quite well at procreating these days. Didn't a woman just give birth to like 8 babies recently?? NOT an of God, sorry.

I've never read the bible, i never plan to. I still know the difference.

vchapes,,,,interesting, if my job at NASA falls through, you'll be the first person I will look up!

sorry, "act of God".

Satan knows scripture, tried to tempt Jesus with it to no avail. Sound familiar shadowman, keep reading

In verse 4 before they lay down, before these two angels could lay down, and it's interesting, isn't it, to think about the fact that these angels who take on human form have the need to sleep? I'm not sure I can explain all of this. I don't understand it all. But nonetheless the plan was that they would sleep which shouldn't surprise you since they had just eaten also. Angels apparently then did take on an actual human form which could eat and needed to sleep. "But before they could lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, surrounded the house, both young and old, all the people from every quarter," every section of town. What's going on here? Verse 5 says, "They called to Lot and said to him, 'Where are the men who came into you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have relations with them.'" Not very subtle, are they?

OH very very true Taurus... 8 children to go along with the 6 she has? That she can't even take care of. She a single mother, maybe a closet lesbian? But why should it matter.

shadowman....I love ice cream. I could eat ice cream, doughnuts and chocolate cake day in and day out. I choose not too. I try to control my desires. Just because someone has a desire does not mean it has to be fullfilled. It's called self-control.

You take someone and put them in a situation of fear. There are certain chemicals that are activated in the brain. Those same chemicals that are activiated in the brain for fear are the same chemicals that are associated with lust and hunger and anger. Some people who have gone through severe sexual abuse or arousal through pornography cannot distinguish what they are feeling. The more they do the behavior the deeper it gets rooted in the mind and the spirit. It can actually cause a physical change in the brain.

There was a study years ago on child development and the human brain. They took a brain scan of a child that had been severely verbally abused. They noticed a certain gland in the brain that was larger than normal. The child was removed from the situation and given tender loving care and words that lifted and encouraged him. Another brain scan was taken. The gland had shrunk to it's normal size. What we feed our mind and spirit actually changes the chemistry of the brain.

There is an awesome book by Caroline Leaf. Knew findings in the advancement of science have found links between what we think and do and how it changes the brain. It is a must read. The name of the book is "Who Switched off My Brain".

4Him2day: I did read the Sodom story. It has to do with violent abuse, murder, disrespect, humiliation, rape, idolatry, indifference toward the poor and the rejection of God's messengers. How you get same-sex relationships out of that is simply laughable.

And once again!

You said homosexuality is a choice. So answer my questions then. Are you male? If not, i'll rephrase these questions. Are you sexually attracted to other males? Would you enjoy sex with a man? Would you be able to be sexually and emotionally satisfied with a man for the rest of your life? Do men arouse and turn you on? I'm still waiting for these answers :) Unless you got something to hide about your sexuality.

Number of times 4him2day has dodged this question: 3

Good idea realist38- I'm a 21 year old, run a business, own my own house... sheesh i've got it rough.

Here are the most magnificent objects for their perverted lust that they had ever laid eyes on. A new flesh, as it were, to pander to their insatiable wickedness, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? We saw them. Bring them out that we may have relations with them." That we may have actually intercourse with them. That's how perverted that city was. People came from all over town. This isn't a little group. This is people from all over town from every quarter, all the people both young and old. Homosexuality had run the gamut of age throughout the whole city. That we may have relations with them...takes a Hebrew word jada which implies sexual knowledge. Some versions might translate it "that we may know them," but it is not just a welcome committee.

4him2day- You appear to have no voice of your own. You've well proven that to us. When you are capable of speaking for youself let us know.

Wow , you really dont get it , your apparently not as smart as I gave you credit for , Have you ever heard of biased polls , studies ? Your proof means nothing to me , its not proof. Do you really think your pro-gay sites will write articles conflicting their beliefs?

I'm getting off here now because I have a life , and that way you can spout about how intelligent you are and ran me off when you proved your point .

good day.

To answer your question Taurus197039...Yes the sin of homosexuality is listed right there in front of you within that list. It is #4 and #5...burning in their lust one for another and I've never seen a parade that isn't headlined without the words "Gay PRIDE."

Economic issues matter and marriage is an economic issue. Studies show that married people are slightly healthier (less costs) and wealthier (pay more taxes) than their single counterparts and this is true for gay people as well. Therefore, it is in the state's best economic interest to grant marriage equality. This is because there are thousands of rights and responsibilities associated with the legal contract of marriage.

"But Lot went out to them at the doorway and shut the door behind him." He went out to speak to them and closed the door behind him because he knew of the passion, the viciousness, the insatiable lust that would drive past him and through the door if given the opportunity. He said, "Please, my brothers, do not act wickedly." They wanted to act wickedly. A man named Bailey has written a book in which he says, "The sin of Sodom was a lack of hospitality." And that's why God destroyed them? No. It wasn't a lack of hospitality, it was the fact that they wanted to do wickedly. They wanted to attack those angels and sodomize them.

keep reading

Verse 8 says, "And now behold, I have two daughters who have not had relations with man." Two virgin daughters. "Please, let me bring them out to you and do to them whatever you like, only do nothing to these men inasmuch as they've come under the shelter of my roof." This is strange, isn't it? What is he doing here? He is saying, "Look, rather than defile these angelic visitors, I'd rather give you my two virgin daughters." You don't give up your two virgin daughters to people just because they lack hospitality and you're trying to appease them. He was saying, "Can I substitute my own virgin daughters? Would you please do to them what your lust desires rather than to these two angelic visitors?" Frankly, I think it's a pretty stupid thing for Lot to do, or to offer to do. But admittedly he's in a tough spot. He certainly doesn't want to have two angelic visitors who sought shelter in his home and who are sodomized while under, as it were, his roof and protection. The dilemma was hard but the solution was pretty dumb. On the other hand, he may have felt safe knowing that they were all homosexuals.

realist38: that means she can still procreate then right? LOL, at least you're making me laugh and entertained! I like that.

4Him2day: The only problem with that is you are citing the Sodom story out of context now. You can't choose one part and ignore the rest and the real meaning. Satan is right about deception. You are deceiving people into believing that homosexuality is wrong, when i have proved that it is not a sin.

Elizabethann: You must not understand sexual orientation very well. You cannot choose whom you are sexually attracted to. Also, i was never sexually abused or undergone severe arousal through pornography, and yet i'm still gay. Sorry, but science proves you wrong:

http://www-news.uchicago.edu/releases/03/differential-brain-activation.pdf

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/sex/dn14146-gay-brains-structured-like-those-of-the-opposite-sex.html

Gay, Straight Men's Brain Responses Differ

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,155990,00.html

http://www.livescience.com/health/060224_gay_genes.html

http://www.springerlink.com/content/w27453600k586276/

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2008/06/16/172/

And it should also be noted that:

"It is worth noting that many medical and scientific organisations do believe it is impossible to change a person's sexual orientation and this is displayed in a statement by American Academy of Pediatrics, American Counseling Association, American Association of School Administrators, American Federation of Teachers, American Psychiatric Association, American Psychological Association, American School Health Association, Interfaith Alliance Foundation, National Association of School Psychologists, National Association of Social Workers, and National Education Association."

Who are people going to believe, someone with laughable assumptions like yourself with no proof, or credible organizations and scientific data? LMAO, and prove me a link to that study. I'd love to see it :D Sorry, but getting abused does not "change" the physical structure of your brain (unless you were beaten to death of course =P). That is the funniest thing i've read all day. Btw, there is no proof that being physically abused leads to homosexuality in every case.

I have also seen parades of Black Pride, or Women's Pride, and prostition comes Hetero lust. Next.

This doesn't go together, > o!

here more,

Verse 9, they said, "Stand aside, get out of the way." Furthermore they said, "This one came in as an alien and already he's acting like a judge. Who is this Lot? He comes into our town, he's an alien, he's a stranger, he doesn't even belong here and now he's sitting in judgment on our behavior? Now we will treat you worse than them." Which may have been a promise that they're going to rape him. A crowd of people raping two angels and then a crowd of people raping Lot. So they pressed hard against Lot and came near to break the door.

This ought to tell you something about the uncontrollable lust of homosexuals. "But the men reached out their hands and pulled Lot into the house, the angels with them, and shut the door. And they struck the men who were at the doorway of the house with blindness both small and great." With divine power, they just instantly made them blind. After rescuing Lot, amazingly they blinded these homosexuals. But would you notice this? "Having been blinded," it says, "they wearied themselves finding the doorway." You would think if you had just been struck blind, you would accept your fate and get out of there and bemoan your blindness, wouldn't you? If...I would think to myself if I got that close and I had just been made stone blind, I would be so horrified at my blindness that I would be running away in sheer terror. But the passion and the lust was so strong and so insatiable and so unbreakable was all it did was make it harder for them to find the doorway. Here they are blind and driven by their lust groping in their blindness to get in the door. The lust of homosexuality is compelling, isn't it? So wicked and so vile was this city with its homosexuals that God burned the whole place to a crisp.

Ok... so what about 3sums? MMF, MFF?? Yeah, i'm sure that may be considered a sin, but doesn't make anyone gay.

Shadowman..oh you're so smart and I'm so dumb!

this doesn't go together >o!

Read the book...Caroline Leaf...Who Switched off My Brain.....got things to do....

getreal was dropped on his head as a child, can someone explain his brain chemistry?

STATE OF MAINE REPULSES ME TO EVEN CONSIDER THIS SICK WAY OF LIFE.....AS ANY WHERE NEAR NORMAL!!!!!!!!!!!

Mariahstorm apparantly hasn't been following. Thank you for removing any doubt of your intelligence.

4Him2day: Lol, more of the Sodom story that has nothing to do with homosexuality. You know, you are discrediting yourself by throwing out the same lines over and over. It's quite entertaining.

tjbc1975: Bias studies? I wasn't aware that physical evidence of brain differences was "bias" In fact, that study took steps to eliminate any chance of bias from the people performing it. Sorry, but science proves you wrong. Psychologists prove you wrong. Credible organizations prove you wrong. Logic proves you wrong.

Also, you proved yourself wrong. Earlier you answered my question: tjbc1975: You wrote "I'm male , and no men dont get me aroused ." You just proved that sexuality is not a choice. LOL do you know how absurd you look now?

shadow, you are clearly the deceiver. That is all you've proved.

In verse 12, "Then the men said to Lot, 'Whom else have you here? A son-in-law and your sons and your daughters and whomever you have in the city, bring them out of the place for we're about to destroy this place because their outcry has become so great before the Lord that the Lord has set us to destroy it.'" And I remind you that homosexuality, this insatiable driving lust can take over a whole city which then is obviously a city to be destroyed by God.

Down in verse 24, "The Lord rained on Sodom and its sister city Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven and He overthrew those cities and all the valley and all the inhabitants of the cities and what grew on the ground." In fact, archaeologists can't even find the place. When I say it was incinerated, that's exactly what happened. They don't even know where it is. God burned it to a crisp.

It was there that the term sodomy was originated. There the term sodomy had its origin. The term sodomy appears in 1 Kings 14:24, in Deuteronomy 23:17 and 18, and it means homosexuality. It is the term for homosexuality. Homosexual is a sodomite who gets his characterization from that city. Clearly the term sodomy wouldn't refer to homosexuality if the sin of Sodom wasn't homosexuality.

realist38: And when did i say i was so smart and you're so dumb? Putting words into my mouth now?

Elizabethann: There is no scientific proof that being abused in childhood leads to physical brain changes. Do you know how absurd you sound? Find me a credible scientific article that's peer reviewed and religion free that proves that, and maybe i'll believe you.

I wouldn't put anything in your mouth. Ta ta for now!

your learning something today aren't you,

To see something more of the characterization of that sin and that city, look at Jude verse 6. And I think this is a very, very important text to sort of solidify our thinking. In verse 6 Jude talks about angels who did not keep their own domain or habitation, but abandoned their proper abode. I take it that that refers to Genesis 6 where you have those fallen angels who did not stay in the angelic community but abandoned their proper abode and cohabitated with human women and God has kept them in eternal chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day. They were angels who went out of their normal relationships. And verse 7 says, "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh." They're exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire. The sin of Sodom was going after strange flesh. And the rest of the cities on the plain there were drown in fire and brimstone and burned to a crisp. A Sodomite then is a homosexual. And frankly, that's the best term to use. I use the term homosexual this morning and I've used it again tonight because up to this point we haven't gotten to this text. I don't prefer the term. Homosexual is clinical. Homo-sexual, just identifying same sex. The term that they like to use the term "gay" is absolutely ridiculous. They are anything but gay. The biblical term really is Sodomite, if you take the illustration of Genesis 19. Although as we noted this morning, the term homosexual in the Greek is used. I think it's a good reminder to them when you identify them to call them Sodomites because that's the best and most graphic illustration of that lust in its perversion.

I'm learning from 4him2day.... that i dislike relegious nuts A LOT more than i thought.

4Him2day: You keep mentioning the Sodom story, so i'll repost this and prove you wrong yet again that it had nothing to do with homosexuality.

The Sodom Story - Genesis 19:1-29

Scriptural Viewpoint: Sodom was a lush beautiful region of land whose inhabitants had known the goodness of God. Despite their exposure to, experience with, and witness of the one true loving Creator, the people of Sodom had rejected a relationship with God, and turned to numerous types of idolatry. When God's messengers were sent to the city, the men of Sodom responded by threatening the ultimate act of violent abuse, murder, disrespect and humiliation. They were going to RAPE God's representatives.

All other Old and New Testament references to Sodom involved the sins of idolatry, inhospitality, indifference toward the poor and the rejection of God's messengers. There are NO REFERENCES to same sex acts or homosexuality.

http://www.cavalierdaily.com/CVArticle.asp?ID=10620&pid=805

http://www.jesus21.com/content/sex/bible_homosexuality_print.html

http://www.christchapel.com/romans_inter.html

http://www.stjohnsmcc.org/new/about/homosexuality.html

http://www.gaychristian101.com/

You said homosexuality is a choice. So answer my questions then. Are you male? If not, i'll rephrase these questions. Are you sexually attracted to other males? Would you enjoy sex with a man? Would you be able to be sexually and emotionally satisfied with a man for the rest of your life? Do men arouse and turn you on? I'm still waiting for these answers :) Unless you got something to hide about your sexuality.

Number of times 4him2day has dodged this question: 4

were warming up now, keep reading

Before we go to the New Testament, I want you to look at Isaiah chapter 3...Isaiah chapter 3 and verse 9. Here Isaiah is pronouncing judgment on Jerusalem and Judah. The prophet says Jerusalem is ruined and Judah is fallen. He says they're against the Lord and they're provoking the Lord. In verse 9 of Isaiah 3 indicts them because they display their sin like Sodom. Not only do they sin but they're blatant. They do not even conceal it. "Woe to them for they have brought evil on themselves. Say to the righteous that it will go well with them, for they will eat the fruit of their actions. Woe to the wicked, it will go badly with them but what he deserves will be done to him. O, my people, their oppressors are children and women rule over them. O, my people, those who guide you lead you astray and confuse the direction of your paths."

vchapes: Haha, he's terrible. He's irked that he can't spurt out his lies about the Bible, that there's someone who is actually educated on the subject of homosexuality and the Bible to show him up.

realist38: "I wouldn't put anything in your mouth." That doesn't sound right, for a straight guy to put something in a gay guy's mouth!

4Him2day: Sodomy had to do with rape and other sins in the city, not homosexuality.

little different from your little lie isn't it, hope your paying attention shadow

Here is an indictment between Judah and Jerusalem for parading their sin like Sodom. This is a flagrant rebellion against God and no doubt encompass sins of homosexuality. This shouldn't be surprising because homosexuality was rampant in the life of Assyria and Babylon and Egypt. It took 150 years but finally these same sins that were all around Israel because a part of Israel's life and culture and led to divine judgment. What destroyed Sodom, what would destroy eventually Greece and Rome destroyed Israel. It is a deadly destructive sin. And Isaiah says when the judgment of God falls, it's going to fall because you have displayed your sin like Sodom.

As we said this morning, it is a destructive and damning and destroying sin. It has destroyed millions throughout history. It is still destroying millions today. God hasn't changed His view of it at all. It may well be the most damning sin in terms of the public acceptance in the future of our country and our world since it is being advocated in TV and books and films and papers worldwide. And we said this morning that our society needs to see it for what it is and that is sin. And as long as we don't, then the people who are engaged in it don't recognize their true condition.

4Him2day: The sin of Sodom had nothing to do with homosexuality, as shown above. So this passage you bring out is irrelevant to homosexuality. You are trying very hard to cite the bible out of context, but as usual, i'm proving you wrong.

4Him2day: Response to your plagarizing of "www.discipleshiplibrary.com/pdfs/5388A.pdf" The site take's a lot of these Biblical passages out of context. It's sad that you can't even think for yourself, and have to plagarize a site. I'm not in the least bit surprised :)

It's not worth arguing with him. He's ignorant with his comments, he's well proved that. He is however, highly skilled in the copy and paste field. Im out..

4him2day: LOL, you just sealed the nail in your coffin. This came from your site: "What destroyed Sodom, what would destroy eventually Greece and Rome destroyed Israel." I suggest you re-read your history. Ancient Greece and Rome were not destroyed because of homosexuality. They were overexpanding far more than they could control.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_the_Roman_Empire

LOL, the lengths you will go to condone your bigotry. That line alone sends your article down the toilet.

are you doing a serious study, I hope so. We will get to your other lies a little later.

What does society say about homosexuality? Well in 1881 there was a born a man who left an immense impact on human history, his name was Sigmund Freud. Among many human behaviors which were curiosities to him was the behavior of sodomy. He became very interested in dealing with sodomites and in understanding them. He determined after some supposed research that sodomy was a psychological disorder and that it was directly related to a domineering mother. By the way, that viewpoint still hangs around today and you hear people articulate it. He said basically, "It's just a disorder that comes because you were dominated by your mother and you grow up then hating the one who dominated you. And since the one who dominated you was a woman, you hate women and so you attach your sexual fantasy to men." That's been a very popular viewpoint.

In the 1930's there came a man by the name of Havelock Ellis. Havelock Ellis published a manual, a sex book and in that sex book he brought sodomy into the open. This is the 1930's. And he pointed out, supposedly, some famous sodomites. He concluded that there were great men among the sodomites and that they accomplished what they did because there was an unusual genius associated with sodomy.

vchapes: He said the Roman empire fell because of homosexuality. I'm seriously laughing over here.

HAHA now I am also!

"In the 1930's there came a man by the name of Havelock Ellis. Havelock Ellis published a manual, a sex book and in that sex book he brought sodomy into the open. This is the 1930's. And he pointed out, supposedly, some famous sodomites. He concluded that there were great men among the sodomites and that they accomplished what they did because there was an unusual genius associated with sodomy. " --- Sex toys came out in the 1800's (technically)

your beinning to sound desperate!

He said, "Frankly, Freud is wrong. It is not a psychological disorder generated by a domineering mother, it is hereditary, it is genetic and it is a higher level of genius than just normal folks possess." He wrote about Erasmus, the Dutch humanist sixteenth century, and said he was homosexual. He said Christopher Marlowe, the English poet, was homosexual. Michael Angelo, the Italian genius, painter, architect was a homosexual, Lord Byron, Francis Bacon, Oscar Wilde, Walt Whitman, some of them were, by the way, history does indicate that. I'll never forget reading the autobiography of Oscar Wilde who said at the end of his life to his horror and shame that what he was in secret all his life he had to finally shout from the housetop. But he said, "Look at all these geniuses," and he picked the selective list of people out of the run-of-the-mill sodomites and made it appear as if it was a higher level of genius to which some people were born.

4Him2day: You do know that material 100-200 years old is a bit outdated? LOL. Yeah, i'm sure i trust your "evidence" that says Rome and Greece fell because of men having sex with each other. Anyone with even little knowledge of history knows that's false and laughable.

There is good news coming, glad to see your both reading along...

So since Freud and Ellis and others who have embellished both viewpoints, you can take your pick. Did your mother do it to you because she was nasty and domineering? Or did your mother and father do it to you genetically? And there's still debate. The reason there is still debate is because no one can prove it's hereditary. Furthermore, no one can prove that homosexuals have in common a domineering mother.

Then along came a real fraud by the name of Albert Kinsey with a famous Kinsey Report. In the 1940's and the 1950's he published the famous Kinsey Reports on Sexuality. He was a sexual pervert himself and so he was trying to prove a point before he even did his research. He wanted to justify adultery, fornication, homosexuality, and any other kind of deviant sex so he fabricated his figures, fabricated his research. I spent this week reading a very interesting book called Kinsey Sex and Fraud. It debunks the entire Kinsey report and shows how fraudulent the figures were. It was he, you remember, who said that in the result of his research was that one out of ten people were sodomites. And this normalized it. One out of ten were sodomites. That is not true, has never been true, may some day in the future be true if their media campaign is continuingly successful. He tilted and twisted and fabricated the statistics to make it look like everyone was an adulterer, everyone was a fornicator, everyone was having affairs illicitly out of their marriage and one out of ten people were sodomites.

4Him2day: Kinsey's research was based 60 years ago. You are citing a religious source to debunk a scientific source. Sorry, but religious sources do not count as "credible" evidence for science. We have learned quite a bit since then. There is extensive studies nowadays proving that homosexuality is not a choice. And your failure to answer the questions i provided further proves my case :)

You said homosexuality is a choice. So answer my questions then. Are you male? If not, i'll rephrase these questions. Are you sexually attracted to other males? Would you enjoy sex with a man? Would you be able to be sexually and emotionally satisfied with a man for the rest of your life? Do men arouse and turn you on? I'm still waiting for these answers :) Unless you got something to hide about your sexuality.

Number of times 4him2day has dodged this question:5

This was followed up by the American Psychiatric Association which declassified sodomy as a mental sickness and removed it from its lists of standard diagnostic diseases and illnesses. And the American Psychiatric Association decided to buy into Havelock Ellis and say it was hereditary. And once Kinsey kicked in the door with his false figures and everybody thought homosexuality was just normal and one out of ten people were homosexuals, that, by the way, is why in the L.A. public school system the homosexual awareness and the homosexual advocacy lobby is called Project Ten. That comes from the Kinsey Report, the one out of ten and that has led to the epidemic of today. And then you take all the talk-show hosts from Phil Donahue on through and what they do is create a platform which further normalizes this kind of deviant behavior. There is no evidence...there is no evidence that homosexuality is a result of a domineering mother. There is no evidence that homosexuality is a result of genetics. There is plenty of evidence that homosexuality is a choice...a choice like all sin, it's a choice. You may have certain susceptibility to it. There may be some people who are more tempted in that area. But it primarily has to do with choice.

keep reading,

And if you read the literature of those that are trying to help people come out of homosexual sodomite sin, they will tell you that what leads people into these choices, what leads them to live like this is just a simple little list of things. One, early homosexual experience, when they're young, somebody engages them, some other boy maybe in their youth or even late childhood, adolescence engages them in some kind of homosexual play that stimulates them.

there's more, the good news is coming!

Another component in the leading people into these kinds of choices is the need for intimacy and some homosexual supplies it. Some young boy meets a man and it has been known to happen in the church with some Sunday School teachers of young boys, and it happens in the schools all the time and you read about it in the newspapers, and this teacher becomes sort of like a father figure to the boy and the boy needs intimacy and he finds warmth and he finds a listening ear and pretty soon he finds himself being stimulated in a physical way by this man and it's fun and he likes the man and that makes him feel comfortable about it and becomes a lifestyle.

Another one of the little components that lead this way is sub-culture acceptance. Some boys particularly, or even girls who become lesbians, can't find their way to acceptance in the normal culture and so they find a sub-culture that will accept them. And homosexuals are always looking for new flesh. Sometimes it happens to men because they're rejected by women and because they can't find an outlet for their physical desires among women because women won't have them, or they fell unattractive to women or they've been rebuffed, they'll slide into the circle where they can find gratification.

4Him2day: LOL, same old argument i seen before. You are citing http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Sodomy/homosexuality_and_psychiatry.htm now. Do you really believe anyone takes that site seriously?

While there was most definitely activist pressure brought to bear on the APA to remove the listing of homosexuality from the DSM, what is missing from your rather biased account is that the science was actually on their side in this. Begining with the pionerring work of Dr Evelyn Hooker in the late 1950s, the mounting evidence of homosexuality not being in and of itself a pathology was clearly on the side of those who fought for delisting, even with the involvement of the gay activists. You'll notice nowhere in the material that you plagiarized, even with all the kvetching about the pressure, was there any evidence provided that the activists were wrong and included in the material you stole are listed some of the biggest names in anti-gay psychology.

Since you've just demonstrated that you're not above lifting material from others, why don't you check out some of the names in the article and see if any of them have ever conducted any studies or written anything that proves homosexuality a mental illness. The reality is that the likes of Beiber, Socarides and Satinover were no less acting on their "prejudices" than the activists, but the science on the subject at that time and to this day favored the activists.

And it would seem all these organizations and the medical community disagree with you. If it were a mental disorder, they would classify it as such now. Once again, you are wrong. You say homosexuality is a choice, but fail to provide any proof that it's a choice, including answering my questions.

You said homosexuality is a choice. So answer my questions then. Are you male? If not, i'll rephrase these questions. Are you sexually attracted to other males? Would you enjoy sex with a man? Would you be able to be sexually and emotionally satisfied with a man for the rest of your life? Do men arouse and turn you on? I'm still waiting for these answers :) Unless you got something to hide about your sexuality.

Number of times 4him2day has dodged this question:6

=) Everyone can see you avoid parts of peoples argument and only choose to believe what's convenient for yourself. That's why your side is fighting a losing battle. That's why more and more states and countries are legalizing gay marriage. You are on the wrong side of history.

They need to pass this bill before things get too out of hand! They shouldnt be discriminating people like this. its hurtful and how would they fell if it was them? i think they would think differently..but i guess we will see how it turns out soon!

There are factors in life that lay out the path of temptation but it's still the series of choices. I can remember as a boy, just a young boy in my early years of junior high being approached in a restroom by a man who now I knew, and it was a few years before I understood, that had homosexual intentions toward me. And I didn't understand that until I looked back on that and I was so frightened, I went out of there. And I can look back and imagine that some boy in that kind of circumstance with a man he knew and trusted would have given himself to that, found some kind of thrill in that and be on his way to a life of that. When I went away to college in my first year at a Christian school, I had a roommate in my own room attack me in the middle of the night. And I remember it so absolutely vividly, I was first of all shocked and all I remember was rising out of bed and throwing a punch and...(applause)...I mean, this is a fairly normal instinct for me, not to he commended, but expected...and seeing him fly across the room into a corner and then confronted, "What is going on?" This is some years ago at a Christian school in my lifetime, it's wholesale everywhere now and the rampage is on for new flesh, and the rampage is on to elicit the involvement of young lives. And where you have kids that are rejected by women, who are looking for a sub-culture of acceptance, who have a need for intimacy, who get lured into this kind of thing, you have some choices that lead to other choices, that lead to other choices and it becomes lust out of control.

So, when we look at this situation, we have to see it for what the Bible sees it for. It is a sin that brings about the judgment of God. But as we saw this morning, it is a sin that is forgivable.

4Him2day: Except there is no scientific proof that abuse and sexual molestation is the leading cause of homosexuality. Find me a scientific site that's peer reviewed to support your claim, and you might have a case. And no, religious sites don't count as proof :) You make all these claims, but do not back it up, that's your problem. And if homosexuality is caused by a rejection of women, half of the mmorpg population would be gay =) Got anymore bogus claims i can debunk or that you can actually back up with real evidence?

One other text and that's Romans chapter 1. Romans chapter 1 verse 18, very familiar text which gives us a good look at the fallenness of man and God's reaction. "The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness." In other words, God's wrath is revealed against the whole human race because they have the truth and they suppress it. They reject it. "That which is known about God is evident within them." God has planted it in their hearts. God has made it evident to them. Verse 20, "Since the creation of the world, His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood through what is made so that they're without excuse." You have the internal moral law of God, you have the external creation and evidence of God and His morality. The evidence is there, the truth is there and men reject it. Verse 21, "Even when they knew God innately from the internal witness and externally from the creation, they didn't honor Him as God, they didn't give thanks, they became futile in their speculations and their foolish heart was darkened, professing to be wise they became fools and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. They rejected God, thus rejecting truth. They created their own gods like animals and men and failed to worship the true God, and that's why God's wrath is poured out upon them.

There you have the characterization of the fallen world. God has given the knowledge of Himself internally and externally. Men reject it and instead of seeing God as revealed, they turn their backs on God, they invent their own gods and bring about the wrath of God upon them

4Him2day: Again, you have provided no scientific proof that the rejection of women leads to homosexuality. Then you go on to claim it's a sin, when i have disproved every single one of your passages cited from the Bible.

You keep claiming homosexuality is a choice, when science disproves you:

http://www-news.uchicago.edu/releases/03/differential-brain-activation.pdf

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/sex/dn14146-gay-brains-structured-like-those-of-the-opposite-sex.html

Gay, Straight Men's Brain Responses Differ

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,155990,00.html

http://www.livescience.com/health/060224_gay_genes.html

http://www.springerlink.com/content/w27453600k586276/

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2008/06/16/172/

When all major psychological and medical experts agree that sexual orientation is NOT a choice

"It is worth noting that many medical and scientific organisations do believe it is impossible to change a person's sexual orientation and this is displayed in a statement by American Academy of Pediatrics, American Counseling Association, American Association of School Administrators, American Federation of Teachers, American Psychiatric Association, American Psychological Association, American School Health Association, Interfaith Alliance Foundation, National Association of School Psychologists, National Association of Social Workers, and National Education Association."

Also your refusal to answer these questions prove my assumptions right. Are you male? If not, i'll rephrase these questions. Are you sexually attracted to other males? Would you enjoy sex with a man? Would you be able to be sexually and emotionally satisfied with a man for the rest of your life? Do men arouse and turn you on? I'm still waiting for these answers :) I'm starting to suspect you are gay but in denial, any straight person would easily be able to answer these.

Number of times 4him2day has dodged this question:7

Sorry, but i think people will believe medical experts, psychological experts, and scientists over someone who claim Greece and Rome fell because of homosexuality.

Now the wrath of God comes in this form, verse 24, "Therefore, God gave them over...God gave them over." What a statement. "He gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity that their bodies might be dishonored among them." Look at verse 26, "For this reason God gave them over....there it is again...to degrading passions." Verse 28, "And just as they didn't see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind." Verse 24, He gave them over that their bodies would be dishonored. Verse 26, He gave them over to degrading passions in their heart. Verse 28, He gave them over to a depraved mind. Body, heart, mind, all given over and what...what became of that when God took His hand off and God let man go his own way? What came of it? Sexual perversion. What you see today is already the evidence of God's judgment on man as He lets him go.

Verse 24, "God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity that their bodies might be dishonored among them. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie. They worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator who is blessed forever, amen." Then verse 26, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions." What kind? "For their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural." They were given over, verse 24 says, to epithumia, uncleanness, reaching out after forbidden pleasure. The Stoics called it grasping for pleasure which defies all reason. Lust gone wild. That's what verse 24 is talking about. Desires that make people do shameless things and nameless things. And they dishonored their bodies.

Let us examine this Roman passage of yours. You got the first part right.

Paul was writing to the church in Rome. The Roman church had become troubled by divisions related to spiritual pride. Paul was addressing the Christians in Rome and teaching about the pagans in Rome. After declaring the power of Christ's gospel to save all, he pointed out that the religious people of Rome had refused to even acknowledge GOD as one of their many gods. They had turned their backs on the one true living God and worshiped handmade idols. Paul explained that as a result of their idolatry, every part of their lives had become corrupt and vile.

Paul then told the Roman Christians that they were not to judge others. To judge others is to condemn yourself (Romans 2:1). Christians are to love others out of their brokenness and into the healing wholeness that is found in Jesus Christ.

The Greek word Paul used, that has been translated in our Bibles as "natural/unnatural", relates to that which is against one's own inherent nature (i.e., heterosexuals engaging in homosexual acts). It was also related to Paul's concept of what was culturally acceptable. The same Greek word is used in I Cor. 11:14-15 in reference to correct hair length for men and women and in Gal. 2:15 in reference to Jews and Gentiles who were such by "nature." Paul emphasized that idolatry (not homosexuality) was the evil which resulted in temple prostitution, sadomasochism, and lack of regard for others.

It is unnatural for a homosexual man to engage in heterosexual behavior. Why would you have sex with someone whom you are not sexually attracted to? Of course that's not natural.

amazing how Gods word is actually so different from the lies you've been telling.

How did they dishonor their bodies? They did what was against nature. They did what was unnatural. In verse 26 women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural. What you have in homosexuality then is a very clear illustration of depravity, of people given over to their lusts without any restraint on God's part. He just let them go. Women, we call them lesbians. Somewhere around 20 to 25 million of them, we hear in America now. They have chosen to live godlessly and God gives them over to the results of their choices. Verse 27, "And in the same way also, the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error." They burn in their lust, that phrase, "burned in their desire toward one another," literally to burn out, ekkaio, to burn out, they were consumed with lust. It's the consuming rage of it. As I told you this morning, the average homosexual in San Francisco, three nights in the bath house, ten to thirty different sexual encounters in one night. Sadomasochism, flagellation, dungeons, torture, orgies, their jealousies among themselves, their neurotic acts are more perverse than heterosexual people. When they have their Gay Parade, you can't even look at it. You can't even watch it. Anybody else who did anything like that would be arrested and put in jail. Homosexuals Kerney and Hill of San Bernardino killed an estimated 40 victims. According to the "New York Times," quote: "The man who knows more about violent death than anyone else in the country is Dr. Milton Helpurn(?), formerly chief medical examiner of New York City." In his biography titled Where Death Delights, Helpurn...not a Christian...wrote this, "It's not my role to condemn homosexuality as such, and I leave it to the psychiatrists and psychologists to try to figure out why people practice homosexuality." He said, "I'm not to judge it. But having performed sixty thousand autopsies, it is high time that those who deviate from the norms should understand the risks. I don't know why it is so but it seems that the violent explosions of jealousy among homosexuals far exceed those of the jealousy of a man for a woman, or a woman for a man. The pent-up charges and energy of the homosexual relationship simply cannot be contained. When the explosive point is reached, the result is brutally violent." Helpurn goes on, "But this is the normal pattern of these homosexual attacks, multiple stabbings, the senseless beatings that obviously must continue long after the victim dies. When we see these brutal multiple wound cases in a single victim, we automatically assume that we are dealing with a homosexual victim and a homosexual attacker," end quote. Why? Because there is a burning lust that is out of control. They burn in their desires. He went on to say in his book that in ten seconds they can look at a dead body and tell you whether it was killed by a homosexual because of the mutilations and the multiple stabbings or multiple blows. There is a gnawing unsatisfied gripping lust that is evidence of their depravity and evidence of the fact that God has given them over, let them go. And they are burning in their desire, women exchanging the natural function for what is unnatural, and men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their persons the due penalty of their error.

How in the world can the Presbyterian General Assembly say, "The task force on homosexuality created by the General Assembly is completing its two year study and ready to finalize its recommendations to the General Assembly?" What is there to study? The Word of God is so clear. Verse 28, they didn't want to acknowledge God so God just gave them over to a depraved mind to do the things which aren't proper, things which make no sense. That's part of God's judgment.

Now in verse 32, after chronicling a whole list of sins that are the result of God giving people over, it says, "The people who practice these things are worthy of death and they still do them and then they give hearty approval to those who practice them." They advocate them. They know the ordinance of God that those who practice such things are worthy of death. That's in the Bible, that's clear. But they still do them and they give hearty approval to others who practice them. All of life becomes totally disoriented.

On 4/29/09 at 8:33 AM, Silverado wrote: Repeated separate thumbs down will cause comment to be hidden

Maybe next year, our proud politicians in Augusta, will allow someone to marry their dog! Pathetic!!!

SILVERADO you are a sick sick sick person......you are comparing gay people to dogs!!!!! wow....these comment sections are getting worse and worse with every new article that comes out...

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On 4/29/09 at 10:30 AM, mariahstorm wrote: Repeated separate thumbs down will cause comment to be hidden

STATE OF MAINE REPULSES ME TO EVEN CONSIDER THIS SICK WAY OF LIFE.....AS ANY WHERE NEAR NORMAL!!!!!!!!!!!

MARIAH STORM - take a step back and stop thinking of gay folks as just plain icky and get over it. I love how you called it a SICK WAY OF LIFE....And that its not normal......some people (like myself) think the way you live your life is sick and not normal........but you can see the other side because your only using 2.5% of your brain......with saying thigs like

STATE OF MAINE REPULSES ME TO EVEN CONSIDER THIS SICK WAY OF LIFE.......AS ANY WHERE NEAR NORMAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

honesly I have one thing to say that I have said several times on these comment postings

WHAT DOES GAY MARRIAGE HAVE TO DO WITH YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHAT AFFECT DOES IT HAVE ON YOUR LIFE ??????????????

did you read that part shadow? They give hearty approval to others who practice them, that would be you. Keep reading.

There's a species of ants that lives in some parts of Africa. By the way, the ants in Africa, as I noted in my trip this summer, are astoundingly productive. They can build massive anthills, some of them twenty feet high. And they live in subterranean tunnels that go way down into the earth where the young are sheltered. And down in these subterranean tunnels where the ants move, there's a special shelter for the queen. The workers go on foraging trips to distant places, returning to the nest with food for the colony and particularly for the queen. It is said by those who study them that if when they are away their queen is molested, the workers even far away become nervous and uncoordinated. If she's killed, they become frantic, they rush around aimlessly and eventually die in the field without ever finding their way back. It's thought that the worker ants in the normal situation are constantly oriented to the queen by some radar-like device. If she is killed, all orientation ceases, frenzy ensues, a frenzy that ends in death. What a parable of man, huh? What a parable of man, cut off from God, he lives in a disoriented frenzy until his death, the frenzy of being disconnected from God. Such is the condition of fallen man, of homosexual sodomites.

But again, we need to end where we began. This sin is forgivable. Such were some of you, but you are washed, you are sanctified, you are justified and all of this through the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. It is sin, but there is forgiveness.

This should go to a vote of the people. If it does, it will get voted down.. just like it has every other time it has come up. The majority do NOT want this. Period!

now were going to go to a personal testimony, this is good. you'll have a hard time refuting this.

Some Sunday nights back, a young man named Robert was baptized in the water here. And he came into the water and he told a wonderful testimony. He said, "I have AIDS," and he said, "I've been a homosexual for years and I said to someone I want deliverance from this life. Where can I go? Where can I go and find help?" And he said, "Someone told me to go to Grace Community Church and I could find help there. He said, "I walked into this church on a Sunday morning. I had never been here," he sat right out over there. And he said, "I was desperate, I wanted deliverance from my sin and its consequence, death." And he said, "John got up, as he does every Sunday, and read a Psalm." And he said, "This is what he read." And he recited it, Psalm 107, "They wandered in the wilderness in a desert region. They didn't find a way to an inhabited city. They were hungry and thirsty. Their soul fainted within them. Then they cried out to the Lord in their trouble, He delivered them out of their distresses. He led them also by a straight way to go to an inhabited city. Let them give thanks to the Lord for His lovingkindness, and for His wonders to the sons of men! For He has satisfied the thirsty soul, and the hungry soul He has filled with what is good. There were those who dwelt in darkness and in the shadow of death, prisoners in misery and chains, because they had rebelled against the words of God, and spurned the counsel of the Most High. Therefore He humbled their heart with labor; they stumbled and there was none to help. Then they cried out to the Lord in their trouble; He saved them out of their distresses. He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death, and broke their chains apart. Let them give thanks to the Lord for His lovingkindness and for his wonders to the sons of men."

4Him2day: All you've done was verbatim word for word copy Romans with no explanation, historical relation, or anything. And as i said, it's against your basic nature to perform homosexual acts as a heterosexual, because heterosexuals are not attracted to the same-sex.

"Somewhere around 20 to 25 million of them (lesbians)" LOL i really hope you're trolling.

Again you mindlessly seem to have ignored this part of my post:

The Greek word Paul used, that has been translated in our Bibles as "natural/unnatural", relates to that which is against one's own inherent nature (i.e., heterosexuals engaging in homosexual acts). It was also related to Paul's concept of what was culturally acceptable. The same Greek word is used in I Cor. 11:14-15 in reference to correct hair length for men and women and in Gal. 2:15 in reference to Jews and Gentiles who were such by "nature." Paul emphasized that IDOLATRY (not homosexuality) was the evil which resulted in temple prostitution, sadomasochism, and lack of regard for others.

"As I told you this morning, the average homosexual in San Francisco, three nights in the bath house, ten to thirty different sexual encounters in one night. Sadomasochism, flagellation, dungeons, torture, orgies, their jealousies among themselves, their neurotic acts are more perverse than heterosexual people."

-I'm also the king of England. See i can make up lies with no proof too.

"When they have their Gay Parade, you can't even look at it. You can't even watch it. Anybody else who did anything like that would be arrested and put in jail."

-Really? Then how come everyone from Mardi Gras are not sent to jail?

"Homosexuals Kerney and Hill of San Bernardino killed an estimated 40 victims."

-http://www.allserialkillers.com/jack_the_ripper.htm There are plenty of heterosexual serial killers out there

"Because there is a burning lust that is out of control. They burn in their desires."

-Last time i checked, many heterosexuals are having sex out of marriage, multiple partners, tons of casual sex, etc.

Lol sorry, but every one of your claims not only is bias, but false.

He stood in these waters and recited that verbatim. And he said, "When I heard you read that, I knew I had come to the right place and that my chains could be broken and I could be set free." And that morning, that first Sunday, that first time he had ever come here, he gave his life to Jesus Christ and was wonderfully saved and later entered the waters of baptism to confess that sin and that transformation to you. And I said to him privately, "What are you going to do with the days of life that God gives you?" Well he told me, he said, "The Gay Pride Parade is coming down the street near where I live, I've been in the mainstream of this whole thing." And he said, "All of my former friends are going to be stopping by to greet me because they know I'm so ill and I'm going to give everyone of them the gospel of Christ." And I know he did and he's dying and yet he's ready because he knows he's going to meet Christ. That's the good news, isn't it?

Father, we thank You for the grace that is granted to sinners of any kind and every kind. We thank You that You forgive the deepest darkest sin, that You break the strongest chains, that You give grace to the vilest sinner for You have done it for us. And we pray for people who are trapped in this terrible lifestyle with its inexplicable passions. We pray, O God, that You would deliver many, be gracious to them and save them for Your glory. What a testimony, Lord, it would be if many were saved out of that sin and gave testimony to Your grace and became rescuers of others in those chains. Thank You for setting so many free, even here in our church. We pray that You'll set more free, that Your grace may be displayed and Your love for sinners. We pray also, Lord, for those who come out of that lifestyle and come to You and are still tempted, whose memories are vivid with the ugly things of the past. We pray, Lord, that You'll wash those memories away, that You'll fix them on holy things, on right relationships. Clean out their minds and give them pure thoughts and triumph over temptation. Give us all, Lord, opportunity to speak to those that we might meet that are caught in that sin and to know that the most compassionate thing we can do is not accept them but warn them for if they don't understand the sin, they can't see the Savior. And, Lord, this is but one sin among many. We pray that You would save sinners of all kinds and make them holy, sanctified for Your glory, that many may sing Your praise in time and throughout eternity. In our Savior's name we ask. Amen.

Elizabethann, you have taken a page form 4HIm in editing Romans, you start with "26Because of this," just like he does. Why do you start with verse 26 and not with verse 23 where it gives part of the reason, idolatry? Do you deny the previous verses and quote what you think backs up your argument? Why not share the previous verses for context?

4Him2day: Once again, i have consistently proved that homosexuality is not a sin, yet you keep insisting it is without evidence. Cherry picking lines with no explanations doesn't cut it.

concerned15: Dog != human != consent =)

4Him2day: LOL, did you just associate a bunch of ants with religion and man? Sorry, but actually your religion has hindered mankind and science. So many wars caused by religion, for centuries we thought the earth was the center of the universe and was flat, due to religious pressures on scientists. And once again, you claim homosexuality is a sin, when i've proven it's not.

In your final testimony, that is a classic example of why religion is on the decline. AIDS does not discriminate based on sexual orientation, in fact majority of the world's aids is among heterosexuals in Africa:

http://www.rebirth.co.za/AIDS_in_Africa_1.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIDS

majority of AIDS in africa

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV/AIDS_in_Africa

"Many deaths are people who are their family's primary wage earners."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV/AIDS_in_South_Africa

heterosexual disease in africa

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A03E0DE153BF931A15752C0A963948260&sec=health&spon=&pagewanted=1

http://hem.passagen.se/nicb/threat.htm

http://www.fumento.com/disease/aids2005.html

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1394113/posts

60% pregnant woman have aids africa

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2082311.stm

"By 1999 the HIV prevalence rate among pregnant women was 22.4%."

"hiv among pregnant women"

http://www.avert.org/safricastats.htm

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:66vbiSw48xAJ:data.unaids.org/pub/EPISlides/2007/071118_epi_regional%2520factsheet_en.pdf+UNAIDS+fact+sheet+aids&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/aa/resources/factsheets/aa.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIDS

http://www.avert.org/aafrica.htm

Around 2 million children in sub-Saharan Africa were living with HIV at the end of 2007. They represent more than 85% of all children living with HIW worldwide. AIDS among children is transferred by mothers.

Helping women and girls in many parts of Africa, as elsewhere in the world, the AIDS epidemic is aggravated by social and economic inequalitities between men and women.

heterosexual contact

http://aids.about.com/cs/aidsfactsheets/a/africa.htm

Damn, did i just shoot your entire argument down the toilet?

Satan is the master of darkness and sin. he is a liar....he is master of deception...he destroys and he deceives. he twists our minds to call things that are ugly, beautiful...things that are beautiful, ugly. That is his agenda. When we are tempted, he'll say there is nothing wrong in doing that. When we ask for forgiveness he whispers in our ears and reminds us of what we have done. he brings back to us guilt and shame and tries to make us believe we are unworthy of love unworthy of forgiveness. When we think of God it is sometimes good that we remember His mercy first. His mercy...then His love...then His justice.

4Him, unless you cite what you cut and paste, you are plagiarizing, I think someone has mentioned that before. Shadowman provides many sources for his posts. You are living back in the days when Falwell and Robertson ruled the Religious Right. You say you know at least 8 homosexuals who don't think you are hateful. Do you share your posts here with them?

free2bee: That's what elizabethann and 4him2day been trying to do. They take biblical passages out of context and include only parts they want to see it make it appear homosexuality is a sin, when it's not. 4him2day is quite funny, in that he tries to pass the fall of Greece and Rome the result of homosexuality, when he tries to reference a religious source for scientific data, and when he claims if heterosexuals tried to have a gay parade, they would be sent to jail, even though he conveniently forgets things like mardi gras. They are perfect examples of why more and more people are becoming less religious.

The biggest lie told by shadow today in my opinion is that hypocrites are going to hell, homosexuals are not. That is not what the bible teaches. All of us are sinners. All of us are worthy of hell, there is none righteous no not one. There is forgiveness in Jesus Christ no matter what the sin is. Shadow is only trying to deny the truth of scripture. He is a follower of someone other than God. Hope you enjoyed the study.

Who do you think that I am?

Selected Scriptures

Code: A335

With that brief question Jesus Christ confronted His followers with the most important issue they would ever face. He had spent much time with them and made some bold claims about His identity and authority. Now the time had come for them either to believe or deny His teachings.

Who do you say Jesus is? Your response to Him will determine not only your values and lifestyle, but your eternal destiny as well.

Consider what the Bible says about Him:

JESUS IS GOD

While Jesus was on earth there was much confusion about who He was. Some thought He was a wise man or a great prophet. Others thought He was a madman. Still others couldn't decide or didn't care. But Jesus said, "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30). That means He claimed to be nothing less than God in human flesh.

Many people today don't understand that Jesus claimed to be God. They're content to think of Him as little more than a great moral teacher. But even His enemies understood His claims to deity. That's why they tried to stone Him to death (John 5:18; 10:33) and eventually had Him crucified (John 19:7).

C.S. Lewis observed, "You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come up with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to" (Mere Christianity [Macmillan, 1952], pp. 40-41).

If the biblical claims of Jesus are true, He is God!

JESUS IS HOLY

God is absolutely and perfectly holy (Isaiah 6:3), therefore He cannot commit or approve of evil (James 1:13).

As God, Jesus embodied every element of God's character. Colossians 2:9 says, "In Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form." He was perfectly holy (Hebrews 4:15). Even His enemies couldn't prove any accusation against Him (John 8:46)

God requires holiness of us as well. First Peter 1:16 says, "You shall be holy, for I am holy."

JESUS IS THE SAVIOR

Our failure to obey God--to be holy--places us in danger of eternal punishment (2 Thessalonians 1:9). The truth is, we cannot obey Him because we have neither the desire nor the ability to do so. We are by nature rebellious toward God (Ephesians 2:1-3). The Bible calls our rebellion "sin." According to Scripture, everyone is guilty of sin: "There is no man who does not sin" (1 Kings 8:46). "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23). And we are incapable of changing our sinful condition. Jeremiah 13:23 says, "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil."

That doesn't mean we're incapable of performing acts of human kindness. We might even be involved in various religious or humanitarian activities. But we're utterly incapable of understanding, loving, or pleasing God on our own. The Bible says, "There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one" (Romans 3:10-12).

God's holiness and justice demand that all sin be punished by death: "The soul who sins will die" (Ezekiel 18:4). That's hard for us to understand because we tend to evaluate sin on a relative scale, assuming some sins are less serious than others. However, the Bible teaches that all acts of sin are the result of sinful thinking and evil desires. That's why simply changing our patterns of behavior can't solve our sin problem or eliminate its consequences. We need to be changed inwardly so our thinking and desires are holy

Jesus is the only one who can forgive and transform us, thereby delivering us from the power and penalty of sin: "There is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).

Even though God's justice demands death for sin, His love has provided a Savior, who paid the penalty and died for sinners: "Christ ... died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God" (1 Peter 3:18). Christ's death satisfied the demands of God's justice, thereby enabling Him to forgive and save those who place their faith in Him (Romans 3:26). John 3:16 says, "God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life." He alone is "our great God and Savior" (Titus 2:13).

JESUS IS THE ONLY ACCEPTABLE OBJECT OF SAVING FAITH

Some people think it doesn't matter what you believe as long as you're sincere. But without a valid object your faith is useless

If you take poison--thinking it's medicine--all the faith in the world won't restore your life. Similarly, if Jesus is the only source of salvation, and you're trusting in anyone or anything else for your salvation, your faith is useless.

Many people assume there are many paths to God and that each religion represents an aspect of truth. But Jesus said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me" (John 14:6). He didn't claim to be one of many equally legitimate paths to God, or the way to God for His day only. He claimed to be the only way to God--then and forever.

JESUS IS LORD

Contemporary thinking says man is the product of evolution. But the Bible says we were created by a personal God to love, serve, and enjoy endless fellowship with Him

The New Testament reveals it was Jesus Himself who created everything (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16). Therefore He also owns and rules everything (Psalm 103:19). That means He has authority over our lives and we owe Him absolute allegiance, obedience, and worship.

Romans 10:9 says, "If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved." Confessing Jesus as Lord means humbly submitting to His authority (Philippians 2:10-11). Believing that God has raised Him from the dead involves trusting in the historical fact of His resurrection--the pinnacle of Christian faith and the way the Father affirmed the deity and authority of the Son (Romans 1:4; Acts 17:30-31).

True faith is always accompanied by repentance from sin. Repentance is more than simply being sorry for sin. It is agreeing with God that you are sinful, confessing your sins to Him, and making a conscious choice to turn from sin and pursue holiness (Isaiah 55:7). Jesus said, "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments" (John 14:15); and "If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine" (John 8:31).

It isn't enough to believe certain facts about Christ. Even Satan and his demons believe in the true God (James 2:19), but they don't love and obey Him. Their faith is not genuine. True saving faith always responds in obedience (Ephesians 2:10).

Jesus is the sovereign Lord. When you obey Him you are acknowledging His lordship and submitting to His authority. That doesn't mean your obedience will always be perfect, but that is your goal. There is no area of your life that you withhold from Him.

JESUS IS THE JUDGE

All who reject Jesus as their Lord and Savior will one day face Him as their Judge: "God is now declaring to men that all everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead" (Acts 17:30-31).

Second Thessalonians 1:7-9 says, "The Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power."

HOW WILL YOU RESPOND?

Who does the Bible say Jesus is? The living God, the Holy One, the Savior, the only valid object of saving faith, the sovereign Lord, and the righteous Judge.

Who do you say Jesus is? That is the inescapable question. He alone can redeem you--free you from the power and penalty of sin. He alone can transform you, restore you to fellowship with God, and give your life eternal purpose. Will you repent and believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior?

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Strange how quoting the Bible somehow makes people think they are correct in hating. Put the Bible down, go to a quiet place and think, ask God for some advice.

If you don't believe in God or the Bible follow your common sense. By nature we would all be better off getting along, following our gutt feelings to live and let live.

tjbc1975, Adoption is very much a wonderful thing. All children deserve a loving family. As the biological parents of our children abused and neglected them it wasn't a healthy bond. My wife and I, and the same-sex couples that we know and love, who have also adopted these 'throw-away' children, clearly understand. You don't have a clue what you are talking about.

It is amazing that you that are as sure as the day is long that you are heterosexual and born that way continue to be sure that homosexuals choose. When did you decide? When did you choose? Did you make a choice to be hetero or were you, as I was, born that way?

4Him2day: All you have done was copy and pasted parts of scripture and conveniently leaving parts out to suit your needs. You have failed to comment on any of what i posted, plagarized from some religious site that said Greece and Rome fell because of homosexuality, while i have proven every single one of your posts wrong.

"Your response to Him will determine not only your values and lifestyle" I've proven that homosexuality is not a choice with medical, scientific, biological evidence, and you have refused to answer questions that would prove your point.

Jesus also never said anything against homosexuality. He preached love and tolerance, while you are doing the direct opposite.

I have proved and even pointed out many laughable claims by that religious site of yours, which btw does nothing to disprove the fact that homosexually is not a sin. It merely copies and pastes scripture and tries to interpret it literally, in the same way racists of the past used it to condone slavery, segregation, keep interracial marriage down, etc. Furthermore, your site claims things like Greece and Rome fell because of homosexuality. Anyone with any sense of history would simply laugh at that. You got anything else i can disprove?

It's very easy to become over zealous when trying to live by ancient doctrine, just ask the Taliban. No abuse or discrimination there. Not

For those who haven't been following, i've been proving that homosexuality is not a sin according to the Bible. Feel free to read the debate prior to this post. The general summary is this:

Homosexuality is not a sin according to the Bible. Any educated Christian would know that. Scholars who have studied the Bible in context of the times and in relation to other passages have shown those passages (Leviticus, Corinthians, Romans, etc) have nothing to do with homosexuality. These passages often cherry-picked while ignoring the rest of the Bible. The sins theses passages are referring to are idolatry, prostitution, and rape, not homosexuality.

http://www.cavalierdaily.com/CVArticle.asp?ID=10620&pid=805

http://www.jesus21.com/content/sex/bible_homosexuality_print.html

http://www.christchapel.com/romans_inter.html

http://www.stjohnsmcc.org/new/about/homosexuality.html

http://www.gaychristian101.com/

Thats why Jesus never mentions it as well. There is nothing immoral, wrong, or sinful about being gay. Jesus, however, clearly states he HATES hypocrites. If you preach goodness, then promote hate and twist the words of the Bible, you are a hypocrite, and will be judged and sent to hell. Homosexuals will not go to hell, hypocrites will.

This is very similar to the religious bigots of the past, where they took Bible passages to condone slavery, keep women down, and used Bible passages to claim blacks as curses who should be enslaved by the white man. People used God to claim that blacks marrying whites was unnatural, and not of God's will.

wa1jmm: Yeah, religion in a lot of cases causes more harm than good. Religion and politics need to be kept completely separate.