This is not a factual story. John and Troy made promises and as a true politician does they are shifting the blame.

What do you expect. Irving has been balckmailing Canada and its workers for years.

When Irving wanted to buy the only hardwood mill in the Valley, the owners refused to sell. Irving the directed that none of its hardwoods wold go to that mill. Since they have a monopoly on the woodlands, they effectively shut the mill down. When it re-opened, Irving owned it. I think they shut it down again now. It is easy for Irving to take this stance, their market is dead right now. It gives them a reason to halt all operations for a while and blame it on Augusta.

I hope the Maine legislature stands tall up to Irving. They can go back to New Brunswick if they want, we don't need them here in Maine.

pass a bill that would tax the land while thay play their games, money talk's and and they will come aroumd fast. and i mean a big tax. why should they get all the brakes we dom't.

Think about this the next time you stop at an Irving store throughout the state.

Mainesurvivor

It's a different company alltogether ding dong.

SHEESH!!

Okay, Mainers, lets boycott Irving. buy your gas somewhere else. Show them the international one-fingered salute.

Mainesurvivor

It's a different company alltogether ding dong.

SHEESH!!

Yeah right, and Pontiac and Buick are different companies

hey guys

irving woodlands and irving oil are not the same company.

they were founded by completely different people at completely different times.

do some research boys!!

making pulp and selling oil are two seperate caveats in case you didn't notice.

Irving is doing the same thing with the LNG trying to come here in Downeast Maine.They are very very greedy people and are not at all good stewards.

I'm not sticking up for Irving, but this sounds to me like plain old discrimination. I didn't think it was legal to pass a law directed at 1 business or 1 group of people. Sounds to me like the State is trying to force another business out of the State.

Sen. Troy Jackson, D-Allagash, a logger who co-sponsored the law with state Rep. John L. Martin

does jackson bring any legistlation up that doesn't effect him personally? this thing, the soda tax (because i can't get my kids off the stuff!), the extra moose hunt...will it ever end!!!!??

IRVING WOODLANDS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE LNG TERMINAL

IT'S A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT COMPANY!!

GET IT STRAIGHT!!

History is the true teller. Anything Martin has been involved in has been self serving. To see Troy Jackson join forces with him has set my vote to never support Jackson again

Two different Irving companies? All ties go back to Canada. If that is true then maybe the oil company can talk some sense into the lumber monopoly.

I would bet Quimbag is salivating right now that she can be getting her hands on some more of our woodlands to make into her own personal park. If Irving is looking for more time before the law kicks in , it is probably just looking for a buyer.

As sure as there is crap in a red hen. IRVING will win again and again and again.

Actually if you look into it, the Irving woodlands and the oil company are allllll part of the same family organization.

No they're not.

I work for them.

Not even related companies.

hotubherbie, according to their on line histories, Both companies trace back to K. C. Irving. They are different corporations but are owned by the same principals. Check out who your employer is.

KC IRVING Father of four boys, one girl JK IRVING (jim) woodlands division ARTHUR, the oil man , JOHN & JACK, HELL IF i KNOW WHO THEY

ARE TRYING TO SQUEEZE MONEY OUT OF, AND MARY DEAR IS RUNNING ALL CAVENDISH FARMS ETC

Read Irvings website http://www.jdirving.com/ Same company. Look at the logo in your shirt, its all part of the same company.

Not the same company people.

Coffers are not combined.

"not the same company people". Two different companies owned by the same family. Two different checkbooks. However, profits invariably trace back to the same family pockets from both companies. That's the point people are making, herbie.

Ok, lets get some facts straight. First of all what this law does, is if there are more than two contractors in this "zone", and they don't like the rates they are being paid, they can get together and have an arbitrator come in and decide on the rates. It only affects Irving land. It apparently was making Irving uncompetitive compared to other land owners. Last year they wanted the law out so the legislature said they would suspend the law and the attorney general would do a study on the law. If you read the documents ( its 105 pages) the attorney general says the law is not needed and was basically flawed. John and Troy committed to taking it out, pending the study and nothing has happend. Also, Irving Oil and Irving Woodlands are two totally different companies. If people are going to argue then they need to get their facts straight first.

What do you expect from a company from Canada. Fraser has been doing it for years and don't expect any difference from Irving. Brookfield Power is another one and the people of Maine and the Lawmaker allow it. Its time to have policy on these firms from Canada.

If Maine wants to survive and compete in a global market, which it must do it needs 2 things:

1. people (companies, employee's and contractors) that want to find ways to do thier jobs better everyday to compete and survive.

2. small minded sour and unproductive politicians to hush and let people get work in a competetive market done.

Different companies owned by the same people.

Look up the history of irving. KC was a crook and the kids are no better.

winter12, unless their websites telling lies, they are two companies owned by the same family. That's a fact. Check it out.

mike n from fort kent go cry on johns shoulder.

Yes, they are brothers, but they are two serpate companies. WOW. The busniness were seperated and the brothers all got different businesses. When Irving Woodlands has to get fuel, they still have to pay Irving Oil so boycotting Irving Oil isn't going to do anything. It might be the same family ( there are three different brothers) but they all own different busniesses. Just because they are related, doesn't mean its the same company people.

Irving has done nothing but destroy our lands, eliminate access, and polute everything in sight!!! Heck, we never had tornado warnings until this company cut all trees in sight! They are hipocrits and control freaks!!!! I wish them the very worst in today's society. This company has been abusing it's employees for many years and I have many family members to proove how this company manages through intimidation and control. Irving Woodlands is greedy and should loose everything here in Maine soon. I hope that someday people stand up against the company. Thank you Senator Martin and Rep Jackson just be sure to stick to your guns!!! If Irving offered me 200 billion for my land I would tell him to shove it where the sun don't shine. Life is not all about money!

Mainefriend. I'm sorry you feel this way, but Irving plants over a million trees a year from what I hear. Do you know how that compares to the other landowners in Maine? From what I hear its WAY more than any other landowner. You also don't think about the people that use the North Maine Woods for recreation. Who do you think does the grading on a lot of those roads? Irving. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But Irving does quite a bit more than people realize. They provide than Can Am Crown with a $20,000 purse. Correct me if I'm not mistaken, but they provide scholorships in the communities and well and donating lumber and time to schools to build new things. At this time in our economy, we can't afford to lose jobs. Its not just all the employees that Its going to affect. Think about all the stores that these people stop into in the morning, or the businesses that they get machines, or trucks fixed. There needs to be some commitments kept by John and Troy and maybe try and meet some middle ground.

The local Irving "big bosses" milk Irving everyday. They use their yellow pickups to haul around their boats, motorcycles and snowmobiles. They use them to go to Lowes on a Sunday. Check out the PI mall on a Sunday. You'll see.They get paid big bucks PLUS they get the use of a work vehicle for things not even remotely related to work. The workers get treated like poop and the big bosses have all the perks.

JD Irving is a robber baron pure and simple. The Irving empire has been based on its ability to bully and intimidate. You won't hear contractors protest Irving practices because they are very aware of the repercussions to their livelihood. The Maine Legislature must draw the line in the sand to stop Irving from the same strong arm tactics used by the railroads a century ago. When a single company controls the reasource base and job market for so many people without any regulation...profits are always maximized without regard for the workers, citizens or community. This is where we are, and this is why we need the Legislature to stand tall.

I must say that I have never seen an Irving pickup hauling a boat or motorcycle. I have seen them hauling ATV's and Snowmobiles and I have asked the question to one of the foresters. They use them in the woods where they can't go with their pickup, so it is for work. I understand everyones frustration with Irving because I was frusterated too until I found out all the things that they do that aren't really things you think of when you think of Irving. I just hope that something gets resolved soon because there are going to be a lot of people without a job and its going to affect all of the communities one way or another.

Winter12, You have to tell me of what promises you say I committed to. I think, no I know you are mistaken. I have never committed to anything in regards to this law. Go tell your boss, Irving, to keep their committments. If you want to debate this issue further, please have the courage to tell me who you are, or call me at 436-0763. Surely someone with as much inside knowledge as yourself would be willing to allow me to know my accuser.

Troy Jackson

First and foremost,even though both companies share the same family tree they also operate independently.Irving forest will purchase oil and fuel from different vendors if they are more cost effective.This is certainly a discrimination case as it only affects 1 company and was set up by both John and Troy.Many of the contractors who left Irving for better jobs came back after a year and requested their jobs back.I don't agree with all their corporate strategies and the way they carry them out but I do know that they are 1 of the few companies that keep reinvesting in our state and have a long term plan.I also believe that John Martin is a co-owner of a local store that sells Irving fuel and Irving Forest company vehicles fuel there.Maybe John will have to relook at his stance.

"The law is on the books but never been enforced" Only in Maine A$$ backwards again. 300+ people out of work because of this! WTF!!

Mainesurvivor Irving sold convienience stores to Circle K.. Google Circle K... Just because not all of the facades are changed does not change the ownership... which is not Irving.

i used to work for irving and i met the old man and his sons and ill tell you right now your wrong ,they have done more for maine than you will ever know. the 2 co.s are in the same familly line but it ends there.so bash all you want. they are good people.peace

Well Troy, from what I understand, you put the bill on hold pending the Attorney General doing a study of the bill. From what I am hearing, the Attorney General noted that the bill was not needed. So why not take it out? Irving is the only landowner affected by this bill, making them uncompetitive against other landowners. Seeing that the forestry industry is not doing very good right now, you think working in the legislature, you would be trying to help it instead of hurt it more.

All Irving companies end up being owned by the same family. Their motto is "if you won't work with us, we'll buy you out." Look what they did to all the little mom and pop stores across Maine.

Hotubherbie: Do some more research! Different companies owned by one family. Hello!!! Also, next time you visit the nrwly formed Circle K stores formerly Irving oil stores. Look at your receipt. At the very top it says: Irving/Circle K. Hello again!!

Mr. Martin's comment on "not wanting to operate from threats and blackmail" is very interesting... given history.

hottubherb - irving is a irving all businesses they are linked

Winter12, as stated above, life is not all about money. How good is it that a super large company gives money, sponsors events, and consistently holds it above our heads! As if they are consistently one upping us as blue collar workers. I owe this company nothing and their tactics are not appreciated by the people of the country. I would recommend that you try and use some of Irvings 3 million acres for recreation. You can't even walk through the woods that's been cut!!! It's awful and looks way worse the Hiroshima. No wildlife, no trees, black water, oil cans, burnt plastic, hydralic oil spills, i've seen it all. These guys rule and shouldn't have displaced everybody who enjoys Northern Maine. Irving has wished for "rural cleansing" for some time so that they could have this part of the USA all for themselves! They even have our Game Wardens working for them. That's how much control they have with their money!!! Wardens will patrol Irving land and pretend that trucks, suvs, cars, atv's, snowmobiles, mountain bikes ruin the land. Look around bafoons! Irving ruins the land, then he plants soft wood black spruce because it's cheap and grows fast. No one company should be allowed to harvest the state! Sorry, but I feel passionate about this and feel that Troy Jackson and John Martin are acting in the people of Northern Maines best interest! Thank you!

winter12 is an Irving-backed poster...call it what you want...but this poster will only defend JD Irving's interests here. Anyone who has ever negotiated with JD Irving knows how difficult negotiations become. When you are making monthly bank payments on $500K worth of logging or trucking equipment ...and have no option other than Irving...then you work for break-even, and very often little more than fuel costs. Irving will argue that its about making money, and they push as hard as they can. But the reality is that Irving is the only game in town for much of Maine...and it is the role of the Legislature to balance the needs of the comunities against comercial interests. The Maine Legislature cannot allow Irving to operate unchecked.

Mainefriend, I am not sure where you are driving, but the land that I hunt and fish on is all owned by Irving. I must say that their standards for the environment are much higher than any other landowner's land that I have hunted and fished on. ALSO, ATV's and mountain bikes are not allowed throughout and of the NMW woods, not just Irvings land. I am pretty possitive that there are many snowmobile and ATV trails that go through Irving land thats not considered NMW woods. I am not saying that life all about money, but the donations of money and time do help out our local economies.

I'm quite sure that if John Martin and Troy Jackson have anything to do with this, it will benefit them directly. Another abuse of their offices. What else is new. Remember Term Limits? These two just swap seats to stay in Augusta. I've heard that one of their business associates is mad about this, and most of this is being done to help one individual. It's sad when they are willing to jeapordize the income to over 500 familys for political/personal reasons.

Xlogger, I actually have no affiliation with Irving except for the fact that I hunt and fish on their land. I am positive that their are other companies to work for than Irving. There are contractors that have over 1 million dollars of equipment and they are still making money. You would think that they have the right to pay what wages they want. When you go for a job interview, you don't tell the employer what you are going to make. If you don't like the pay then you go somewhere else to find a job. Its the same case here. John Martin isn't realizing that Irving is the one that plows to his camp in the winter....

Thanks ...winter12 exactly right...

...."If you don't like the pay then you go somewhere else to find a job."

This is the exact issue used in "company stores" in mining towns of Appliachia! Are these workers going to sue Irving for breach of contract?...no because they need a job. Where is a logger or trucker going to go if they don't work for Irving? Sure they can move down-state!

All of our economic experiance gathered over the past 100 years tells us that a single entity, controlling resources and employment opportunities cannot operate unregulated to protect the basic rights of our citizens and workers.

Well Xlogger, I am not sure what you are talking about with a breach of contract???? There are other people to work for. There are many contractors in Aroostook country that don't work for Irving. What about Orion Timberlands? When you talk about unregulated, why is Irving the only company being targeted here?

Mr. Jackson....you need to respond to the public regarding the results of the AG's study. The law was suspended and the office commenced their study, those results have been posted and made public. THE LAW IS FLAWED AND UNFAIR!! Now as elected officials, you and your constituents must act as you promised to do. Your stand today as well as Mr. Martins, and your opinions that Irving is just trying to blackmail the lawmakers is simply your unfounded response to an outcome that was not to your satisfaction.

Troy Jackson you are putting your ego and your own vendetta ahead of the welfare of the citizens you pretend to represent.

While you recommend unenployment for others and take a state paycheck yourself, i hope your milk is as sour as the

taste of your words. Irving has grown with partnerships and adapted as markets change. If you think what happened in past years

or before is going to help tomorrow's Mainer make a living you are just not helping anyone. I would ask what you have done

to make Maine Wood industries situation better by writing laws that legislate one company at a time. If a law is good enought to be written

let it be applied to all across the state.

dragon5220 The recipt can say anything it wants... Circle K owns the Irving/CircleK Stores and sells Irving products... That reciept is just a comfort measure as the transition goes forward.

As for Martin... he might call it blackmail if he is into hyperbole. A word for Martin and his ilk are doing is extortion.

The father of my child is an Irving employee and all I have to say is if Irving closes its doors, finding a job in the Presque Isle area will be harder then it already is with more then 300 hundred men out of work! I am sure there has got to be a way to work around the drama and keep Irving open! I do not see how putting 300 hundred men and women on unemployment can do any good for anyone. Something needs to be done and done fast!

Mr. Jackson,

I'm glad you came on this board to challenge some of the comments. Important questions have been asked of you and we hope to have a reply.

Of all the questions, I feel mine might take precedent. Frankly, is the photo of you at the top from your High School yearbook or were you just have a very bad hair day?

Sincerely,

Ralph

Why was the new law enacted in 2004, but POSTPONED to June 1 (2009?)? Shouldn't there be some explanation here? If this issue has been simmering for the last 4+ years why should anyone be surprised?

Irving wants collect barganing off the table. They can choose to punish the Maine Legislature by pulling the plug on all of their Maine operationsal...and put hundreds out of work. Even for Irving to threaten this action is barbaric! Where will it stop? This is hard nosed negotiation to a peice of legislation which should have been in place 10 yrears ago. Irving is all about money - all the time...and as winter12 put it....."If you don't like the pay then you go somewhere else to find a job."

good god..what a bunch of idiots.check tax and land records..IRVING IS IRVING..they are different compaines.it all ties in irving oil limited..all irving companies are the result of the irving families...idiots.they are a buch of a holes that try and put the little guy out of buisness.they pay there emplotees sh it and give them no benefits or at least the least that they can get away with.

David889327, the law was enacted in 2004 and was in effect through 2008. It was only POSTPONED from 08 through June 1, 2009. During that time the Attorney Generals office was to conduct a study of the law.

Irving has been running New Brunswick for decades what else is new .

I can't believe it. Someone actually is blaming tornados in the county on the Irvings. Amazing.

The Companies are two seperate entities, however, as mentioned, the Family ties kind of unite them and more than loosley. I'll bet all the money from each ends up in the same bank in Bermuda. The forbes 500 list the Brothers(sons of KC) collectively on their list, last time I looked they were somewhere aroung #130.

vichet, Circle K leases the stores from Irving, I am sure along with that lease is a contract to purchase all of their fuel product from Irving, along with many other stipulations on how the stores are to be operated. Back in the 80's or 90's the State passed a law commonly referred to as the "Irving Law" it limited the number of stores one Company could operate in a specific area. I found it funny that once Irving leased all of it's stores to Couche-Tarde (Canadin parent company of Circle K) that they then purchased up a bunch of stores from Webber and began operating them as Irving stores. Seems to me they are seeking to circumvent the "Irving Law" by still dominating the wholesale/distribution of fuel in the area, while at the same time having a heavy hand in the retail end as well. Hey, they are not as big as they are by accident, they know how to work the system. Of interest is that they also own most of the Media outlets in Eastern Canada, so you can bet that the only "official news" that people get about Irving in that region is highly censored.

Thanks, fourme2009, for the info. So, has the AG's office reached a conclusion?

Yes, a conclusion was reached. The conclusion was that LD 1318 is unneccessary legislation. I'll find the link and post it.

The bottom line folks is that it's Irving land - they bought it and paid for it, and you have nothing to say about what they do on it or with it. If you don't like it - buy it. If you can't, then shut up.

Laws should never be written for or against one company. I don't agree with a lot of things I read and hear about Irving - like poisoning hardwoods so they can grow softwood faster - but it's really not my business. i don't own the land - they do. Try telling any landowner in Aroostook County what they can and can't do on their own property, and let me know the results. Try this one: "You need to mow your dandelions - I don't like the way they look." Let me know how the person responds. We are priveleged to be able to access large landowners' properties for hunting and fishing, and just plain enjoyment of the outdoors. Would you prefer they gate it off and put up no trespassing signs??

No, in true Maine form, our politicians will do everything possible to squeeze a little more out of any company or employer that tries to run a business in this state. I would have no doubt that the reason these 300 people are out of work is directly related to an Energy bill being printed today that blocks Irving from making another $2 billion investment in Maine - one that would provide jobs during construction and would provide a taxable investment for years to come. That's not good enough - our folks in Augusta want to study how we can get more - at the risk of getting NOTHING!!!! In fact, this state has a long history of getting NOTHING because of its onerous regulations and general unfriendliness to anyone "from away." The attitude is - they have more than me, so they're bad and should be stopped. They might make some money on the deal, and we just can't have that.

It sounds exactly like what our current President is doing to GM - we now own 60% of the company, the Canadians own 12.5%, and the employees own 17.5%. Private holdings account for just 10% of GM - do you think I will ever invest a dime in that company - NO WAY. They will produce cars that resemble Russian vehicles, or YUGOs - that no one will buy!!! No way to profitability as long as the government is running the company. I don;t care what he says, Obama has killed one of the best companies in US history. It should have been allowed to go bankrupt earlier - at least then it would have had a chance.

So, it's fair to say, "There's more to the story."?

The bill that is subject to this controversy is nothing more than legalized price fixing. If all the nation's banks got together and said that as a group they would not offer loans at a rate lower than 18%, all parties involved would be facing criminal charges. Why is then that the state of Maine allows the lumber buyers get together and determine that they will stop buying the lumber unless they can buy it for a lower price. If Irving and other logging companies decided to meet and mutually agree to not sell their lumber below a certain dollar amount, the companies would be charged with price fixing. Repeal the law and focus on ways to attract new business to the State instead of new ways to screw the companies that are already here.

Results posted as part of AG's study

http://www.maine.gov/tools/whatsnew/index.php?topic=AGOffice_Press&id=68682&v=article

Thanks for the link, fourme2009. I started to look at it, but holy shiite, I'm not a speed reader, I have other work to do, and it will take me a while to get through it. Shouldn't journalist Sambides have distilled and referenced some of this?

windfuture thank u for seeing not just one side! We need more people like this!

This should have been a lesson before, don't sell american lands or business's to Canada, they hate us anyway.

Mainefriend yes we've had tornado and hurricane and warnings, as well as earth tremors/quakes just for the record. There was one or the other in 1954, 1958, 1973, 1992, that I know for sure. A few in between.

Well they may have done some nice tax deductable things, but if it will make anyone feel better, I tried to get on Irvings furnace plan about 25 years ago, they said no it was too old (built in the 1940's) it was 35% efficent, can't get parts and blah, blah. So I did my home work and the furnace still runs,purrs like a kitten and it's actually 78% efficent and all I did was really clean it and keep it tuned up and yes I can find parts. So I have to thank them for refusing to take my money they saved me from wasting on their furnace plan and thereby forcing me to learn about furnaces, now I don't need to call anyone to fix a furnace.

These may be 2 different companies owned by members of the same family, but blood is thick, and don't ever forget that.

Let the 300 people laid off draw unemployment it will be credited to the Irvings.

Corninmyturd2.... I think a lot of people commenting on this negatively probably did own a business, then they worked for Irving and lost everything. Mary mentioned in the article, "since 2004, contractors have seen a 29% increase in harvester earnings. I'm not sure, but it might have to do with Irving forcing logging contractors to run their equipment 24 hours, 5 days a week. The contractors that didn't want to run their equipment for those hours had to leave. When you buy a machine for $195,000 and 3 years later you have 15,000 hours on it because of the hours Irving made you work, but you need a newer one because you can't afford breakdowns, and the dealership only wants to give you $50,000 for that machine, but you still owe $90,000. That's not helping the contractor make a profit. That's why a lot of local contractors lost everything. Plus the rate cuts of roughly $3-$4 a ton didn't help. But, like Irving said, " If you don't like it, go some wheres else"! The problem is there is only a few other landowners around and they already have their contractors. It's about time the state stands up to them. By the way hotubherbie, for some reason JD can see his woods, oil,and ship operations from his tower in St. John NB. I think that there possibly can be connection, or maybe he likes over seeing other peoples companies. :)

hotubherbie...been soaking too long...I wonder what jackson and martin would think if they were in Irving's position...leave irving alone....they've done wonders for this state and communities...

Winter12....you are partially right, Irving has started doing some positive public service work, but it has only been in the last few years and probably at the advisement of a professional PR company. As for tree planting, yes, they do lead all other land owners in reseeding but they also lead the area in clear cutting. A few years ago Irving went through the process of having their woodlands in the Ashland area and further south (Oakfield, etc,) certified under a national guideline process. They are no longer certified because they cannot meet the criteria necessary to maintain certification. The certification, in a nutshell, means that you are growing more wood than you are harvesting. Thus, the need for them to seed thousands of acres. Irving is a large employer and jobs are necessary in the area of the state where there are so few, but what is wrong with a law that allows contractors the right to arbitrate rates if they feel the need. If Irving is paying fair and consistent rates equal to other land owners in the area there is no reason for them to fear an arbitrators decision, is there? Since the afore mentioned work "strike" in 2004, Irving bought a fleet of trucks and their own wood harvesting equipment and yet they obviously could not do it cheaper since all the trucks and logging equipment have been sold, parked, or transferred. Before Irving Woodlands requests the law be changed or repealed perhaps they should give it time to be tried. It really only became effective yesterday.

hotubherbie, get it through your head. All Irving operations are based in the Golden Ball in Saint John, N.B. There is no way that one of these companies fart that the others don't smell it. The Irvings have streets named after them all over the world 'ONE WAY'. They want the proposed energy corridor through Maine to be owned and operated for the exclusive use of Irving controlled assets. They will stop at nothing to eliminate competition from any outside interests.

It is totally unconscionable that a private family can intimidate whole Provineces and now State with their demands to be left to their own devices as to how they treat their employees. The Irving operations are prime examples of the reasons Unions were formed in this country.

I will say, to their credit that they came into Maine and forced others to raise their service levels to a higher degree. All their convenience stores had clean restrooms and for the most part a better and more diversified line of products than was was offered by old time operations. Some of you may remember restrooms that were smelllier than outhouses, that were the norm.

corninmyturd2.. I was never a business owner. I worked in the woods for contractors for years. What angers me about Irving is when I see grown men that owned logging businesses for 20-30 years, work like fools, to keep their business afloat. There used to be a time, before Irving showed up, that men can start a business and put in 12-13 hours a day and make a good living, also have enough time for family. That changed when Irving took control of Northern Maine. 12-13 hours wasn't good enough anymore, Irving wanted longer hours, because in their mind, if you are going to have toys due to the profit of your business, you are going to have to earn it, even if it kills you. They thought because contractors were doing well financially; they were getting paid to much, so they cut the rates, even as cost to run the equipment went up. Even when the contractors did as they were told, they watched their bank account go down till there was nothing left. The contractors that spoke up against Irving were put in the poorest chance of wood. They also had to move their equipment often, creating an extra expense. These contractors after a while folded because of Irvings actions. These were men that gave their blood, sweat and tears not to lose their business. The ones that speak positively of Irving either don't know Irvings ways of business or work for them and kiss their butts. As Irving said " we're going to weed out the weak". And that they did. There must be something wrong with them if Quebec doesn't want anything to do with them, and Maine and NB contractors are both hurting. They are smart business men. They are really wealthy people, but as the saying is " rob from Peter and give it to Paul"

I just want to say that even though Irving plants trees every year does not make up for the poor land management that they do. They can send however many people to school and whatever but do you know how long it takes for those little saplings to grow to full size. They may plant more trees than other land companies but I know the company that my husband works for does not do very many clear cuts. Select cuts and overstory removal is a good way to let regeneration grow and that way you dont have to spend millions to plant trees after you have clear cut. Irving goes right in and sends all of the underpaid workers in there to do all this damage.

corninmyturd2 ...your "answer to the problem" is certifiably moronic. You clearly have little appreciation of economics and the Northern Maine economic drivers. Do us all a favor an get a job running a harvest for your buddy Irving working $13/hr for 12 hrs a day 6days a week...plus commute ....plus expenses....with no long term contract.

well mr corninmyturd2...this is actually an important issue...and is one that deserves more than flip postings. While I am not blessed with your psychological profiling skills, I do know when I am dealing with a troll.

corninmyturd2 Irving has tried to overpower all of there neighbors, so what your saying is let them do what they want and make all of there employees suffer the abuse of the monopoly. They are the ones why all of the other landowners have so many laws and regulations now. They go in and demolish everything and make all of the other land companies look bad. All they do to fix things is hand over a check or plant a few trees.

when you run out of arguments you can always resort to name calling....

when you run out of arguments you can always resort to name calling....

I have a life of not only thinking of myself. Also I have a family business that has been operating for many years now and has been doing quite well. And my mother and father just started a restaurant in a nearby community that is in its third year. You must be a type of guy that sits behind a desk and pretty much looks out for #1. I guess I know where you are gonna end up. Irving I hope will be in the same place. Or back to Canada!

Ouch, seems like libby and xlogger hit a nerve.

The loggers of Northern Maine have been putting up with this crap for years!! Irving has those hard working, honest people on a puppet string for as long as I can remember. This has got to stop. Why are these people being forced to seel their equipment and homes because someone in a cushy office in Canada is having a temper tantrum. They are impossible to work for! Nothing is ever good enough. Takeing bonuses away for bogus claims and shutting them down at a moments notice. This has been going on for as long as I can remember. If they are comeing into our country, they should have respect for the people that are struggling to get by while they sit by a pool at their summer home. Makes me sick!! Why is this being allowed?! These people work long, tireless hours. They are part of the woodlands and care about what happens to it. They follow clear-cutting laws and do all that is asked of them with pleasure because they love that land and want it to survive. Yet, they can't even get health insurance. Somebody help the people that keep Northern Maine going. PLEASE!!!!!

It's Irvings land. To pass any legislation that directly is intended to force one company into what is Labor Negaotiations with some non-existent union is ridiculous, and probably illegal. If you don't like Irving, don't work for Irving. There are 49 other states with plenty of opportunity for the ambitious. I've been self employed most of my life and if there is one thing I learned, there are no gurantees in business. And that seems to be what everyone is looking for. Guaranteed employment with long term contracts. Not a reality in todays market. If we start allowing Augusta to determine labor rates, and dictate to business how to run their businesses, we are all in trouble.

tanker99, you are a smart person. Everything you said is absolutely true. I personally know of private business woodsman who were making an honest clean living on tree harvesting until the Irvings showed up. The munched and mowed everything in sight with their 200 billion dollar machines. Many of the prvate business owners went from earning an honest $80,000 per year to $0. Irving rides their equipment through rivers, streams, etc... and do not miss one tree. If they are required to leave 10% standing they will cut all the healthy trees and leave the dead ones up, just for profits. They are crooks, dishonest, and it is unnearving that people of this state actually support companies like this for MONEY!!!! I hope they shut the doors!

MAINE FREIND- YOU ARE A MORON, THEY COMPLY WITH ALL THE LAWS SET FORTH FOR CUTTING THE LUMBER.. AUGUSTA NEEDS TO CHANGE THERE WAYS OR WE WILL NOT HAVE ANY JOBS LEFT IN THE STATE

When did Irving move the Pinkham mill to canada? I was through there the other day. I saw the mill still intact and people working. No, the mill isnt sawing wood because it BURNT late last summer.

Loggers get paid by the metric ton, the more you cut the more you make. It is that simple. Those who are complaining and going out of business are those who don’t want to work for what they earn. Easy, you get paid for what you do. And to top it all off, Irving will help finance new equipment and technology for you while guaranteeing you steady work. How much better could it get?

soibudk, attacking a persons character will not get you anywhere. You do not know me, what I do for a living, my history, my knowledge base, or anything for that matter. Now the point is this state should not waiver to the threats of limited funding by a monopoly. Personally I don't care what happens, as long as the state runs this extra large crook of a corporation out! They must leave before we have nothing left. Think of this senerio as borrowing 84 months on your car! It's a bad investment!!! Irving is a bad investment! The company does not care about the employees, the people who live in Maine, or anybody for that matter.

northwoods guy. I think you were looking at the mill in Marsardis. That mill is re-opening, from what I heard, only to cut the wood that they have in the yard now, and will decide what is next after that cut. Pinkham is closed. Most equipment was supposed to be auctioned off a couple of weeks ago but I heard Augusta stopped the auction.

I also think someone needs to look into why Martin and Jackson are so interested in this. Most know that it is not for the people of Aroostook County. Using the legislature for their own personal gains? Leave Irving alone. If you want ot have new laws, then they need to include every landowner that conducts logging on their property, not just one.

Dansur, I’m pretty sure I know the difference between the Pinkham mill and JP Levesque mill. Thanks though. You are right Fraser Timbers (yet another Canadian based company) is currently operating to run out what inventory they have in the yard (roughly 2months worth of sawing) And Pinkham is closed. It BURNT last year. I have been into that site recently. The mill is still in tact minus the large boiler which has been dismantled and the planer mill which was destroyed in the fire. You really shouldn’t go by here-say and then regurgitate it like it is the gospel. If you want to know facts, see it - do it for yourself. Irving was going to auction off the Pinkham mill but it has been put on hold. They just recently auctions the Escort Station mill in QB as well. The cold hard truth is, it would take far more money to rebuild the Pinkham mill to get it operational than it is worth, especially when they can make 20 to 25% on the exchange rate by sawing the lumber in St. Leonard NB then sell it over here.

FKmom2, it is true about the National Certification, but according to some of their foresters, Irving will be going for their certification again this year. Also, the law was effective in 2004. They suspended it for a year pending the Attorney General doing a study of the bill. It went BACK into affect 6/1/2009.

I must say dansur that I agree with you about Irving’s overall rights as business / land owners. They own it, it is theirs, who does the state think they are to tell them how to run their business. Irving should be looked at as the ultimate business model. Starting from nothing, growing, diversifying and ever expanding. Yes, they are in it to profit just as any business is. You can run a business in the red like the state does our government, you need to be maintain cash flow to pay bills. They do all of this while selflessly giving back. They donate, they sponsor and they pay an above board wage. They aren’t forced to do any of this, they do this because they to are hard working individuals who know the struggle.

I think if they were going to re-open Pinkam, they would have left the boilers. Very expensive items.

Irving oil isn't connected to Irving? Pinkams mill is open? I'm confused, so is the state. It shows how much people are not in touch with reality.

As a small business owner in Northern Maine, I am concerned about the impact I will feel should Irving discontinue forestry operations in the area. What I find even more disconcerting is Rep. Martins callous comment in this article , "I do think that the Irving employees should go file for unemployment this week because nothing is going to happen in the immediate future."

As a longstanding elected official, Mr. Martin has invested considerable time over the years helping numerous constituents attain a comfortable resolution for drunk driving offenses and other similar infractions. I am hoping he will invest the same effort in dissolving an impass which threatens the livelihood of a few hundered hardworking, taxpaying, people.

It is Irvings land, yes. Only because they have bullied their way in and taken out all the "little guys". Unless you have lived it, you have no idea what it is all about. There is so much more that goes on outside what is reported in the newspapers or written in laws.

ovrlck4 - just sounds like sour grapes to me

You are right. Sour grapes after watching the years of stress they have put my family through. Thank you for clarifying that.

Business is business and if you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen.

It amazes me how some people on these comment boards can't have dicussion without getting crass. Sad. I will stay in the kitchen, but I will get the hell out of here. Life is too short.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I wasn't trying to be crass, I was simply suggesting that you were just complaining. You're experience may not have been a pleasant one but that doesn't mean the government should try to shut them down.

The law is for loggers to be able to negotiate prices with Irving. That way, Irving can't drop the price so much that people can't afford it. Because when that happens, other landowners follow. It's security for the contractors that have 6-7 figure investments in the logging industry. Some people will complain when Oil companies raise the gas price, they say they can't afford to pay the extra $2 a gallon. It's the same thing with the logging contractors, they can't afford to run the equipment if they take a cut in pay. Don't think there is nothing wrong with Irving, just because it doesn't effect you. I hope that Irving raises their gas to $10 a gallon and all the other companies follow. I think then, everybody would be on the same page.

You would all be happy if the government got involved with the big oil companies!

Woodman, Thanks for the intelligent input.

You know it seems that if irving was paying a fair wage for services rendured then there would be no issue at all!!!!!!!!! The collective bargaining bond was set forth so the independants in this area could negotiate for fair pay for services rendered. The bill seems as though it is aimed at irving because all the people that got together to have the bill passed worked for irving at the time. Irving pays less than all the other landowners for cutting wood. When the bill passed they had some contractors lease their equipment to them so as not to have too many contractors in the same area,they also purchased their own equipment to operate,ask them how that went? They couldn't afford to make it so they had to park it all or sell it off . Irving can't pay more because they can't afford it to much company fat!!!!! Go by the fort kent office some friday and you will see for your self.I think they are in talks with the town of st.john to rent a few parking spots from them!!!! What did irving do this winter when the economy got bad why they laid off 10 or so contractors with out a days notice!!!!!! Now theres a company that cares!!! They did manage to keep a couple of others going though running multiple machines multiple shiftts,seems to me that they could have slowed everyone down to a single shift and kept everyone working.I guess that so many people with college educations can't figure that out.I wonder how many operations they shut down in canada last winter?As far as not wanting to do the work for the price set forth by the land owner......no problem there are 600-700 bonds coming out in june, you can bet those canadians will cut it for that price! We can't bargain with anyone for fair wages in this part of the country no matter who it is,as long as we have all the canadian workers crossing the borders every day.Just go to any border from jackman to st. pamphile any given morning and see the line of pickups and trucks waiting to come to work in the good old USA.Then try to get a job working in those parts!!!!!An american that can't speak french....sorry :) no work right now!!!!!!

Dear unemployed...I hear McDonald's is hiring. I'm sure you could demand whatever wage you want and they'll pay you.

unemployed4monthsnow....I am not too sure where you get your information. I never heard of Irving laying off 10 contractors this winter. I DO know that they hire extra crews just for the winter when they are behind. I don't work for Irving but the other companies I have worked for do the same thing. Also, for the bonds issue. Irving never even applied for bonds this year. AND out of all the other landowners, Irving uses the least bonds!! You explained part of the problem right there....with this law in place, Irving doesn't have the ability to move different crews around to keep them going. If they put more than two contractors in the "zone" and they don't like their rates they can go to arbitration and some other party decides the rates. Shouldn't Irving have the ablility to decide the rates for the people that work for them?????? If the rates were that terrible than no one would be employed with them.

unemployed4monthsnow

you said,

“What did irving do this winter when the economy got bad why they laid off 10 or so contractors with out a days notice!!!!!! Now theres a company that cares!!! They did manage to keep a couple of others going though running multiple machines multiple shiftts,seems to me that they could have slowed everyone down to a single shift and kept everyone working.I guess that so many people with college educations can't figure that out.I wonder how many operations they shut down in canada last winter”

Ok, it is simple economics. Cutting timber is like any production operation. The higher your production the lower your costs. There is no way that 10 contractors could survive on “reduced operations” they need the volume to cover fixed costs. Also, by scaling back to a reduced single shift, they would of effected the same amount of people by eliminating second shift. Guess my college education is clouding my judgment here….

As for operations in canada, take a look to the east. There are more mills shut down in NB than there are in Maine.

TOO THE MAINE LEGISLATURE PLEASE STOP CREATING LAWS THAT HURT THE BUSINESS IN MAINE!!! As a member of the Maine forestry communtiy, the large landowners of the State of Maine have been putting food on my table for years, THE LAND OWNER MUST BE ABLE TO CONTROL THIER OWN FATE, other wise Pulp and Paper from Brazil and Timber from Asia are going to put us all out of work, trust me I see the realtime numbers from this on a daily basis, the complexity of this issue is far beyond the view people who are not seeing the actuall numbers that these landwoners need to remain viable, the capital demands are huge. The need for loggers, truckers, and other associated workers will not, I repeat will not, go away if owning timberland in the State of Maine remains a profitable business venture. And no I do not and never have worked for Irving, in fact I live 4 + hours from the Aroostook County Line, however don't take this as someone that is from "AWAY" I have never lived one day anywhere else but Maine, and have dear friends that live in " The Valley".

MAINE LEGISLATURE IT IS TIME TO WAKE UP AND STOP CREATING SHORTSIGHTED LAWS THAT BENIFIT ONLY YOU AND YOUR CAMPAIN CONTRIBUTORS!!!!

mountainman 36, couldn't agree with you more, I am from the Valley and know how hard all the contractors and employees of Irving work for their money. I believe most of them are happy doing what they do. Most live here becuase they choose to and would not want to raise their families else where. Looking around at the homes, vehicle and toys around the contractors and employees homes I believe they are enjoying life. I beleive they are all making a decent living. So when I hear people commenting on how Irving does not pay well or tries to screw everyone, I think that they are luckier then most and have worked all winter and hopefully when all the legislative bull gets settle they will be back to what they know and love.

Really, I don't care what happens. But, I want to throw some numbers out there for people to figure out, about the whole double shift thing. Double shifting was inforced by Irving in 2004. Double shifting should show almost a 50% increase in earnings, right. It doesn't. I understand that most crews runs 4 nights,so your down to 40% earnings. Well, there is 11% earnings missing somewhere, since mary keith said that there is a 29% increase in earnings. Now where did it go? The 11% missing was the rate cut contractors experienced since 2004. People say, well 29% increase is good, Irving likes telling people that. But, don't forget double shift, means double cost for the contractors. Double the fuel, double the wages, double the parts from breakdowns, double the travel, an extra vehicle, double auto insurance, double hours on machine, double depreciation on machine, increased work. comp., and double the headache. I wonder what the contractors are left with? But, Irving will not show those numbers. They say what they need to, to convince the publis that the loggers are complaining for nothing.

Tanker99, you have no idea what your talking about. When they say they are getting a 29% increase, that is after all of the things you just mentioned above. That number already has the fuel and the breakdowns, wages, ect. factored in. They are earning an average of 29% more after paying all of their expenses compared to when they were single shifted.

tanker 99, if you don't care what happens, why comment. Have you ever worked in the harvesting industry? Where are you pulling your figures out of..........or yes I went there.

tanker99, I really don't believe you understand all of the facts. Irving will do and say what they need to in order to defend themselves. Do you really think they should sit back and let lawmakers pass rules against ONE company. DO you expect them to sit back and not reply to accusations that they are using blackmail against Augusta? Of course they should defend themselves with their facts, it is not any different than the representatives that YOU support. Now those folks will say what they need to in order to make Irving look bad in the publics eye. What's the difference?

One of the greatest delusions in the world is the hope that the evils in this world are to be cured by legislation. – Thomas B. Reed (1886)

fortkentmom, It doesn't effect me personally, but it bugs me when false facts are being thrown out there. Yes, I worked in the logging industry and I have family and friends that are contractors, people that I talk to everyday, I was also employed by Irving....oh yes, I went there too! Winter12.... you question me? According to you, Irving Woodland and Irving oil are not connected!, I suppose you also think pinkhams mill is still open For somebody that has no affiliation with Irving and just fishes and hunts the land, you sure pretend to know a lot! Ypu said you get your information from Irving foresters, that's a reliable source. There's no bias there! I'm sure each contractor goes in with each fuel bill, pay stubs, parts bills, machine depreciation value, and pickup expenses, or does Irving control there books too. Stop trying to make people your false facts. You sound like most politicians. Fourme2009, believe it or not, I agree with you, both sides need to be able to defend themselves, but do you think the little guys should sit back and take it also? One side has a bigger voice and is only giving 50% of the truth. The other side only has 2 politicians for their voice and most people don't trust politicians. That's where this website comes in handy, it gives everybody a voice. The little guy can come on here and tell his side of the story and it's not third hand information like winter12.

tanker99, I mean no offense here but if you consider yourself one of the little guys obviously. You really haven't told your side of the story. What's your issue with Irving? All you've stated is third hand information, things that may have happened to others you know but not you personally.

Ok tanker99 just wanted to know if your rederic was valid.

Actually Tanker99, I can guarantee that I HAVE THE FACTS. ALSO, I said that Irving Oil and Irving Woodlands are the same family but different entities all together. I am not too sure what you are talking about with the Pinkham mill. Good job. I never said i got my facts from the foresters by the way. ALL I SAID was that I asked them why they have their snowmobiles in the back of their pickups. They told me it was to lay out blocks that they can't get to with their pickups. Just to let you know, I am speaking the facts that I know. Its not third hand. I would like you to tell me which facts I have stated that are false.....

We can go on and on about this, but the facts are there are over 300 people anxiously waiting to go back to work. Valley people need Irving. We need to continue to be productive members of our Communiity, State, and America. And when polititians tell the people of northern Maine to get in line for unemployment, what message are they sending out.

This is wore than the torture debate.lol Winter12... I am 100% positive that the 29% increase is gross earnings, that means that it doesn't count the loggers expenses. I That is one of the facts that you got wrong. This issue I am 100% right. Also, I agree with fortkentmom, it will effect a lot of people if they shut. I hope it doesn't happen. I just wish that all facts not just 50% to get the public on their side would be told by them and they would stop playing the victim role. Because the real victims are the employees and contractors.

Maybe I was not clear. The contractors are bringing home 29% more revenue from wood than they were before. This is 100% accurate. Either way, the law needs to be gone or there are going to be a lot of people filing for unemployment. Just a quick question for you Tanker99, explain to me how only 50% of the facts are being told???

Winter12.... Your back pedaling, in your earlier comment you said the 29% increase was after expenses. Now your saying total revenue, now we agree. I think we are making steps. As far as 50% facts, I just typed a whole book on it in this comment section. If you didn't pickup on it, you never will. So there is know use for me to type all that again.

No I'm not backpedaling....Its taking the fixed cost into consideration but not the fuel. NEXT, Ask most of the contractors if they would go back to a single shift. They will tell you no because they are making more money than they used to. They are also double shifting trucks now and those truckers are making more money than they used to when things are all said and done. Looking over all of your comments, there is ZERO facts that your referencing. Its all just your opinion of what you think is going on. Also Irvings is trying to get their wood to the mills cheaper to make it more affordable. Those contractors back in the day that made all that money was because the land companies were paying crazy rates, hence the reason most of them went bankrupt!! Anyway, this conversation is going nowhere. I am assuming that you were a contractor for Irving that couldn't produce enough wood to build a fire so you were on the bottom of their list for production and thats the reason for your feelings.

I never was a contractor, but the machine I ran was #1 for production and efficiency for a long time. But, you can ask the contractors if they would get a reasonable rate, if they would continue 2 shifts. You can tell your BOSS the answers NO!

Of course you were number 1 for production and efficiency...of course. I am not sure what telling my boss NO would do? It doesn't matter if they got a higher rate, I can tell you that they would keep it double shifted to make that much more. Double shifted machines maximize production. This is starting to become repetitive so I'm done. Good luck buddy!

GOOD

Tanker99, Idle machines do not save money, they cost money. The contractor pays a fixed monthly rate for equipment and insurance. By running two shifts they can get 2 months production with months fixed costs. Obviously, there are several variable expenses in there that will increase such as labor, fuel and maintenance but no more in one month of double shifts that 2 months of single shifts would be.

Tanker, I suggest you brush up on your business and account pro-formas before you try to tell the people who are making a living doing just this what works best for them.

If it didn’t make good fiscal sense do you honestly think that all the large mills throughout the world would be doing this? It is the only way to maximize production with-out increasing capital expenditures. Should a contractor spend another 750k on new equipment double production or should he double shift? To me, it’s a no brainer.

Already applied at mcdonalds in fk..problem is, it's owned by a canadian as well.Same answer as from all the rest ...can't speak french.... no job. As far the 300 jobs lost,well there will be 600-700 bonds issued in northern Maine this year,each one of those is a gauranteed job for at least 3/4 of that contract period. Now if those don't get issued there would be plenty of work to go around. I guess there would be an abundance of jobs.

Why is it when you work on Irving lands you have to buy Irving products? I hired a logging crew from Fort Kent that wouldn't buy Irving products, they sent him down the road. Sound like a good company to work for.

northwoodsguy... what? Im not talking about mills. If you double shift, you will need newer equipment more often, to avoid breakdowns. The value of the machine is less than you owe because of hours. No brainer

Tanker99, think about it. So what if you have to replace equipment more often. You are still getting the same amount of tonnage cut out of the piece of equipment. Instead of lasting 10 years it may only last five. But you at the end of the week the contractor will have more money in pocket because expenses per ton will be less double shifting. I didn’t say you were talking about the mills, it is called an analogy. If the mills do it for better profits, why would the loggers?

I will probably get some big flack on this one but, I think Canadians should not be allowed to work here in USA.

If they were not allowed to have jobs in th USA there would be more jobs available for US citizens. You don't see us going over

and working in Canada do you?