I think they should let the men and women in uniform vote on the issue and let that be the deciding factor, they are the ones that have to deal with it either way.

' Times they are a changing' and it's time to end the 'don't ask don't tell' policy, so gays can serve honorably with their comrades in arms..

I also feel it is time to do away with this 'don't ask, don't tell ' policy. Gay people serve in the military and with honor; they therefore should not be put in the postion of having to hide their identity. From everything I have read and heard, almost all the heterosexual men and women who serve side by side with them say they are very supportive of their homosexual comrades and do not support this 'don't ask, don't tell policy.' There just is no need for it.

I agree with taxed...but if that doesn't happen I feel that ANYONE who wants to fight for our freedom should be aloud to. There are many of us that enjoy our freedom but would NEVER fight for it like our military does.

It's a decision that should be left to Military leaders and Military leaders only. Threre job is to defend the country and win wars. No one knows how to do it better than they do. The last thing I needed to deal with in the Army was two guys going at it in a foxhoe.

For those of you who have never been in the Military, you do not have any idea what it is like, therefore, you know nothing of what you speak. For those of you who have served, I respect your opinion either way on the subject.

I understand what you are saying but "The last thing I needed to deal with in the Army was two guys going at it in a foxhoe. " Come on now. Gay people are not animals that need to be "doing it" every second. I may not know much about the armed forces but I know enough that I am sure that when it comes to "fight time" any member of the military would be fighting not...loving.

I'd support gays serving openly in the military, so long as every distinction of gender is done away with. Just as a woman would not want to shower with a company of men, i don't want to shower with a group of gays. But the difference is, she is Ok for her point of view; I'll be called a homophobe for mine. While we're at it, let's hold women to the same physical standards as men too. Equal rights, equal push-ups.

berquis, you ever served? There is a lot more to it than "fight time".

agreed demsuk64. If your in a combat role, you should be able to meet a certain physical standard, its a standard for a reason. Yet, the standard is lower for woman, makes no sense at all. I am sure I will be called a sexist, go ahead, but if a standard is set because there is a need to be at a certain level of physical capacity to do the job, the job has not changed, it's just that now some people won't be able to get it done.

And your point on the shower is dead on, if a guy is attracted to men, theres a pretty good chance that if the guy next to you in the shower is gay, he's going to be checking you out. Is that not the reason that mens rooms and womens rooms are seperated? For privacy and dignity?

demsuk64,

I agree with your last post. Would female soldiers/sailors want to take showers with male soldiers and sailors? Many straight's don't want to take showers with or share bunk quarters with gays.

I also agree with your comments on women - if they want to hang with the big boys (in combat situations) they should have to meet the same damn physical standards. Right now they don't. Truth is - most can't. If your talking rear etchelon jobs not so much of an issue.

Actually, front line direct ground combat units (infanty, armor, etc.)are closed to women. Problem comes with having support units open to women, which in a place like Iraq or Afganistan can become hot, fast. Like the old saying goes every soldier is a rifleman first, but many (ala Jessica Lynch - have no place even close to that situaiton.)

I haven't served so I know I know... you don't think I have an opinion BUT you can't tell me that "even though there is a lot more to it than "fight time" that you would have to be worried about two men 'getting in on in a fox hole'. That is what you are saying right?

I don't get the issue. All kinds of comments like "let them serve with honor" and sim ilar comments. They ARE allowed to serve with honor. As some have pointed out in different posts, many gays have and are serving with honor. The rules just says don't tell. If they are just as good as any soldier, and their presense doesn't cause any issues as many argue, then why do they need to tell. Why do they need the right to tell all their fellow soldiers they are gay? On one hand they want to argue they are the same but still want to fight for the right to tell everyone they are different. Just come in and do your job and shut up about your sexual preferences. I haven't served, but have also never had a job where I walked in and announced to everyone that I was hetrosexual.

berquis:

Not sure how old boogyman is, and don't want to know.....but his opinion does not seem to reflect a lot of the young people and others in the military today. Studies,etc. have shown they have no problem with it...these are their comrades in arms....they often become friends....they are not "threatened" by another's sexual identity as they are very sure of their own. It is not this big deal to them. So, people see these things differently.

I don't think they need to broadcast anything. That is not what I am saying....I do not know about anyone else's opinion about that. Just do not think if asked, that they should have to pretend. I don't think it had to broadcast. Maybe, as with many things, if this policy was done away with, there would not be any major upheaval and people will wonder what all the fuss was about !

Here we go with the whole "young" people thing again. Chersully, in case you missed something in life, with age comes wisdom and a different way of looking at the world, 18, 19, & 20 year olds do not even have completely developed brains, there life experience up until that point have been pretty limited. Hell, you can't even be president until your 35, there is a reason for that, would you want a 20 year old running the country?

Just because young people look at things differently, does not mean it is the right way to look at it.

Again, I don't care what the "studies" you refer to say, unless you quote who commissioned the study, who conducted it, and who paid for it. I know in your world, no one would fudge the results of a study to advance their personal politics, but in the world the rest of us live in, it happens all the time.

President Trueman saw that bigotry towards towards those citizens of non-european heritage was un-American and not in the national interest, and by Presidental Order, formally ended institutionalized racism in our armed services. Niether Clinton nor - apparently - Obama manifested the testicular fortitude to do so to address discrimination against gays and lesbians...which works to deny many intellegent and patriotic Americans a military career at a time when the services are struggling to meet enrollment goals. Though I am - at least for 60 years - a straight male, this just doesn't make sense...

While this situation will resolve itself in time - Americans under the age of 30 are far less homophobic than we older folks - many more military careers will be wasted along the way, a waste that will include the substantial amount of taxes spent training these skilled servicemembers.

"Niether Clinton nor - apparently - Obama manifested the testicular fortitude to do so to address discrimination against gays and lesbians." Maybe they listened to the Militay leadership and decided that allowing gays in the military was not condusive to the mission of the military.

Ror the record, neither Clinton or Obama manifested the testicular fortitude to serve in the Military either.

chersully

I would like to know how you are so enlightened about young people's opinion in the military these days. Have you carried out a poll yourself?

Please spare us with your so called "studies"

Or give us a reference.

SHEESH!

Ask Chesty Puller to see what he thinks.

I looked real quick for a poll or study. All I found was a poll of veterans which said 70% supported gay in military if they didn't declare it. Only 47% of vets support it if they are out in the open about it. I will say the more I read about this issue I am swayed to a point of I don't care if they are allow to serve openly. I don't like a big deal they make about it, if it came to a vote I would vote for allowing it, I think. I do think that even then it should be a place of non-sexuality. Nobody needs to announce if they are gay or straight. Just come do your job and shut up about it.

What about transgenders?

If they can take a leak in Denny's, they'll be fighting on the front lines soon.

I don't think I'd want a gay person fighting on the front lines anyway, I don't think they'd be as capable as a straight male.

He'd be the last person I'd want watching my back. Literally......

Boy is sure is nice around here without you know who and you know who.

Thank God.

Most straight Millitary men don't want gays in the millitary. Just the way it is.

They don't want to shower with them or sleep in the same room with them.

If you have never been in the millitary you wouldn't know this.

The policy was don't ask don't tell as far back as I remember. We pretty much knew how was gay, when you live in that close of quarters it was not hard to figure out. The unspoken rule among the enlisted men anyway was, we don't want to see it, here about it, or speak about it. As long as those simple rules were adhered to, no blanket party was in order.

taxedtodeath, they are already there, already serving, already. Why should the military have the ability of excluding gay men and women when we as a society, say it is unethical and illegal??

demsuk, you have already showered with a gay person if you went to highschool with more than 10 others, was it a problem?

duckwa, what if someone turned you in for being hetero?

Pokeyboy, how right you are....it will work out eventually, too bad for those caught in the process now....

Duckwa cant give you an answer in 5000 words or less, so he wont answer you!!!!!!!! LOL!!!!

Had to do it since you know who cant be with us Duckwa...Sorry......

Well, I suppose on the flip side of this argument one could argue that claiming to be gay is the only way for a white male to gain "protected" status and thus be treated as equal to other minorities and women. I'm sure that if gays are allowed to serve openly than a big push will be made to promote a bunch to show "equality" regardless of qualifications.

"Sorry soldier, if you had the extra 5 points for being gay you would have been promoted. have you ever considered experimeting?"

I worked in an office with two gay men. They were not partners, but did share friends outside work. Other than being far more caring and sensitive than the "straight guys", there was no difference in the office atomosphere becuase of their orientations. In this same office, the larger crowd of straight males, married with kids, were party people after work.

As the lone woman in the office, I always declined party offers because I choose not to drink. I had kids at home and my priority was to spend as much time as I could with them outside the office. The problem does NOT lie in our sexual orientations. That is really a non-issue. The issue is accepting people who differ from what we perceive ourselves to be. We degrade what we do not understand and perpetuate predjudice.

jspear, that is why i said I will be in favor of letting them serve. I don't at all think they should be kicked out for being gay. I just also think it still shouldn't be told. They don't need to announce it and the straight guy wont tell everybody they are straight.

-------------------------------------------------------

Telefunkinu47, Speaking of which, I caught your comment yesterday about judyblueeyes, I was thinking the same thing. It would have taken some advanced planning. That name was a member since Feb. , but at the same time didn't seem to have ever posted till this week. Also Did you notice all the posts from judy yesterday have been taken down. That person is still out there reading everything I bet, just can't find a way in. Even the hubby's name hasn't been around.

raysgurl

working in an office environment with two gay guys is much different than expecting them to watch your back in action.

you make my point for me, they are far more caring and sensitive than "straight guys" EXACTLY why we don't want them defending our country.

Do you think Osama's buddies are "caring and sensitive"

I highly doubt it. If the defense of our country were left up to gays I'm afraid we'd be in dire straits.

nikolai

Bubba gets what Bubba wants.

Especially if it's been awhile.

"you make my point for me, they are far more caring and sensitive than "straight guys" EXACTLY why we don't want them defending our country. " they used to say the same thing about women....Many women in the military excell at what they do for US everyday. You really are on the "frayedendsofsanity" huh?

Okay, it's a little more convuluted than merely doing away with Clinton's policy. There is this little thing called unit cohesiveness. Bear me out, before crucifing. Some in the rear with the gear units this may not be major problem. Other more forward units it is. I have worked with all ages, races, etc. The things that will tear a unit apart are C.O.s, and those that don't fit the mold. And open homosexuals may not fit the mold. Are they serving... yes. Did I care ...no. If it became an issue in the unit...yes I did. Then I used what was at my disposal. Sorry, but that's life in the military. Made no differance what I felt. Mission first. Oh, and the young troopies were the worse.

women in the military do not serve in combat rolls.

----------------------------------------------------------

Fray, any idea why or how long? I can still feel her watching me!!! ;-)

I served in the military for over 20 years and have a daughter and son-in-law in uniform. None of us have been asked how we felt about gays in uniform, but if asked, none of us have a problem with homosexuals serving as long as they keep their lifestyle choice to themselves. It has no place in the military structure. I don't understand all the comments from those that have never worn a military uniform or put their lives on the line for their country. It's a different world that needs to be preserved, because if you mess with it too much, you might find yourself speaking Chinese or Arabic before too long. Leave the policy in place. Removing it will open a can of worms that will ruin our freedom protectors, and we'll all suffer.

The people that have never served will have different opinions than the ones that are or have.

Bottom line.

Join up and you will see. Dont sit back and talk about something you know nothing about.

Duckwa, I would imagine you know who is rip roaring mad that they can't make a comment on this article.

Maybe they need to focus on cleaning the rooms at the Bar Harbor HOJO.

raysgurl,

there is no comparrison between an "office" and the Military. Sorry.

nikolai, gay men don't rape!? Never? Yeah sure.

EJParsons. Right on! The Military is not an organization built on understanding and acceptance. The rules are different, you sign up, your constitutional rights stay outside the recruitors door. That is the way it HAS to be. Some people just can't seem to understand that.

Boogyman is right - no comparison between an office and the military - give me a freaking break. Also Nikolai said:

"Perhaps it is heterosexual men who should not be allowed in the army if everyone is so afraid of being raped."

Yeah, and perhaps we never want to win another war in our future too.

For most of our history the US Military has functioned brilliantly with only straight men (no women and no sissies) - against the toughest and most determined enemies such as Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. Clearly the US Military can function to its fullest with just straight men.

Could our military function to its fullest with only women and sissies?

I think we all know the answer to that don't we?

boogyman - A lot of people have no idea of how the military system has to work, but they're more than happy to add their 3 cents. Of course, that's the way American society has become. Everyone tries to control everything, even if they don't know squat about it. Sounds like the present administration.

Actually the more I think of it, Obama and the Military are not much different. He wants to control every living and breathing moment of our lives.

It's kind of like basic training. Or as Obama likes to call it "re-education".

I just heard a faint scream coming from the east.

Were some among us interested in facts rather than spouting bigotry, it would take about 30 seconds to find data to support or debunk their opinions...

"Youth Attitudes Toward Gay Rights - The survey finds that young Americans support civil unions, marriage, and protections for gays and lesbians. By six-to-one margins, American youth support gay rights and protections related to housing, employment, and hate crimes and those sentiments are held by all ideological, partisan, racial, geographic, and religious groups. One out of two respondents said they know someone who is gay; knowing a gay person has a significant impact on attitudes." Abstracted from National Youth Survey, January 15, 2004: CIRCLE, in collaboration with the Center for Democracy and Citizenship at the Council for Excellence in Government, released a survey of 1,000 Americans between the ages of 15 and 25. The survey was conducted by Democratic pollsters Lake Snell Perry & Associates and Republican pollsters The Tarrance Group. It was in the field November 17-24, 2003, and has a margin of error of +/- 3.1 percent. It was supported by CIRCLE, The Pew Charitable Trusts, Carnegie Corporation of New York, the Rockefeller Brothers Fund, and the W.T. Grant Foundation.

This is but one of numerous scientifically designed surveys, all of which suggest that our younger citizens will eventually end institutionalized discrimination against our gay and lesbian citizens. There is also data which suggests that as people - particularly women - age and are are in workplace, church or other settings more interactive with openly gay and lesbian people, their prejudice dimminishes.

And since citations have been requested (and provided above), let's just toss this into the mix...

Article: 'Is Homophobia Associated With Homosexual Arousal?' by Henry E. Adams, Ph.D., Lester W. Wright, Jr., Ph.D. and Bethany A. Lohr, University of Georgia, in Journal of Abnormal Psychology, Vol. 105, No. 3, pp 440-445. See http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8772014?dopt=Abstract and/or

http://www.philosophy-religion.org/handouts/homophobia.htm and/or en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophobia

Riddle me this...for those of you who believe homosexuality is the next great civil rights battle, why is it refered to as a "sexual preference"? Last time I looked, minorities and women had no choice as to a specific "preference" regarding their specific situation. A black man is black. A woman is a woman. No preference involved. A black woman can't live for 45 years on this earth and then decide one morning that she's been lying to herself; she is actually an Asian man. Where preference is involved a choice is made. Choices have consequences, especially for gays who decide to "come out" while serving. That is how it should be. To be descriminated against due to circumstances out side of your control is wrong; it is not the same thing as being discharged for a "preference".

Don't count on it Pokeyboy, those same youth find shows on MTV entertaining, that will go away with age too.

age has nothing to do with right and wrong. You don't defer from what is "right" in your mind just because you get older.

Age effects judgement, at least most of us anyway.

Again the Military is not about right or wrong, it is about defending the country and fighting wars, social norms and awareness do not apply. How much experience did you say you have in the Military again?

Two points. You do not lose your constituional rights at the recruiters door. The military does place certain coditions on your behavior when representing the service. Such as wearing a uniform at a political rally or a protest, that's a no-no. If I remember 'polling 101' you need a random selection of the target group. Malls are great places to get that 1000. And malls generally are around population centers. Attitudes are different between urban and rural. My opinion. And there is a big difference between those serving and those not. Will attitudes change. Yes. But this issue will be slow. You can regulate behavior on duty, but is it enforceable off.

So boogyman since I have never served I have no opinion, I get that. But just to be certain... the 'correct' judgement is not allowing someone who WANTS to fight for us to do so because he/she is gay because they are going to get in on in a foxhole....that's where this 'discussion' started. It's all clearer to me now. *eyeroll*

So, not having the choice to leave on your own free will until your enlistment expires and being trown in jail if you do is not contradictory to the constitution? Tell me one other job where that can happen to you? You are not entitled to a "Jury of your peers" in the military, is that not unconstitutional? Why do you think there is such a controversy about how terrorist are tried in the US? Many don't want military tribunals because they do not extend all of the rights that civilians have, they want Enimies of our country being tried as if they had constitutional rights.

I never said you don't have an opinion, I just said that since you know nothing of the institution you speak, your opinion certainly means less to me than someone that has served honorably and understands the Military. Clearly you don't.

boogyman:

Did not "miss anything" so you can cut out the condescending tone.

One of my son's is in his 20's. He knows many people in the military and elsewhere. I have heard many younger people (and I include someone in their 30's or so as well....not just talking of 18 yr ols!) Many even "older" military people do not seem to feel about it as you do. MTV?? (I have never watched it...do not have cable.....am not interested in MTV and never was.) There is wisdom and there is wisdom. Many older folks have it (some don't) and I have heard a 8 yr old sound wise about certain things.

No one is saying all change is right. As for this issue in the military......I have no idea what will happen and I suppose the people who serve in the military (now and in the future) have more of an investment in this issue than I do.

Whether you like a lot of "young" people's views or not, the fact is they are going to be running things in the future, with all their varying ideas. You sure seem to react a lot to the "young people" comment. Age is mostly a number anyway. There are "older" people who do not act their age and vice versa.

duckwa's post at 11:30 AM......Guess that is a good point...and will accept what you wrote there. I think you are right....."don't make a big deal of it."

But....the poll you cite was among veterans. Their viewpoint is important, but they are not serving in the future so will not be affected by it so much.. I think a poll amongst those currently serving would be more helpful maybe.

re 11:21 AM Don't you ever have your own opinion about anything.....someone else had mentioned the "poll"....gosh, you accuse others of being followers....guess you should look in the mirror.

berquis: I think you are being called to task for your opinion because you have not served in the military (therefore, supposedly you know nothing!) But I believe duckwa said he has not served in the military; I did not hear him being questioned for his opinion on it, when he has not served, if I understood him correctly. I will say , though, that I agree with some of what duckwa wrote about it. I am not in the military; I can still have an opinion; however, I think those now serving or in the future, should be the ones who will determine how the view it; what is the best policy on it,etc.

raysgurl: I found interesting what you shared about what you wrote about the people in your office and how they acted. But reading down further, of course you were chastised for that remark.

fair enough, I'm sure we'll find more to disagree on, on another day :)

"Whether you like a lot of "young" people's views or not" Again you miss the point. It's not a matter if I think anything about their view other than a person's views are limited to their lifetime experiences, most of a young persons lifetime experience is extremely limited. A lot of young people though Hitler was a great leader and would make their lives vastly better, how'd that work for out for them?

Some people's lifetime experiences have not made them better people, well-informed,etc. It is not a given.

I do not have the answer for this "do not ask, do not tell" thing. Like many, just weighing it, mulling it over. I will not be deciding it anyway. Time will tell with it, I guess.

chersully: I agreed with that this morning at 8:15 and I think it is very very true. The ones who serve in the military should be the ones who make the decision. It was the 9:07 comment that began my "attitude" on the subject. I am making friends all over today!! :) I can say one thing for the BDN it has made my Friday at the desk fly by wonderfully with all these 'debates'.

I don't know why you are so offended by my 9:07 comment. I said it is up to the leaders of the Military, if the Military leadership could just be allowed to make the decision either way with no political pressure, as thay should be allowed to do, I'd support whatever they decided, like I said, no one knows better then they do. And the Military leadership has it's share of liberals, just look at Colin Powell.

Man, people around here are way to hypersensitive.

oh yeah, the men and woman in the Military do not "vote" on issues as taxedtodeath1 wrote this morning to which you agreed. Again, a very non-informed comment on the inner workings of the Military. The military is not a democracy.

You folks who keep happily cheering on pro gay attitudes among youth forget that manyeople tend to get more conservative with age. What was that old saying - If at 20 you are not a liberal than you have no heart and if you are not more conservative at age 40 you have no brain.

You enter into a contract upon enlistment. And like any contract it is legal and binding. Unlike civilian court where a lawsuit would be forthcoming for breach of contract. If you decide to quit that would be AWOL (a unique military crime). As far as jury by your peers. It would be (dependant on the charges) and option to request an enlisted member on the Courts Martial, if you are enlisted. The military system is based on the constitution, as a matter of fact it is far more efficient than civilian courts. But that's a different comment. As far as illegal combatants...

Boogy they are hammering you...

You can take it.

1 vet to another.

They dont understand thats all.

I thought i was done here but apparently not....yet. What I agreed with was that it is up to the military to make the decision. Sorry if I wasn't clear and you took it as they shoud 'vote'. What set me off was the foxhole comment and you know that. Hypersensitive is not what I would use to 'classify' myself. Prehaps overly opionated but definately not hypersensitive.

So I can enter a contract with my boss that says if I tell him to go f himself when he tells me to do something, he can have corporate security lock me in the broom closet for the weekend? Do you think that would hold up in court for him/her? No, because he does not have the right to imprision me, no matter what the contract says.

key words (dependent on the charges), I don't recall seeing those in the constitution. There are similarities, but the constitution is not the rule of law in the Military. Can a person in the Military appeal their conviction to the Supreme Court?

Fuzzy but after the US Court of Appeal...Yes. But if memory serves me right only for certain capital Offenses. It's been four years

Boogy, good post at 4:04 when I read above somebody say you don't check you rights at the recuriters door I had to laugh. You are signing your self over to somebody who can legally shoot you if you don't run into a deadly situation when they tell you to. Thats what I call a loss of a few rights.

From reading these comments it's clear that some are for and some against and neither side will be influenced to change their mind by the arguments of the "other side " . That being said, Venting is probably a healthy thing because the feelings expressed in some of the comments could become very dangerous if repressed . When I was in the service , rule 1 was let the guys the guys complain and rule 2 was watch your back when they got real quiet .

sounds like a good rule. :)

berettastorm....you're right about becoming more conservative with age. But you're wrong about equating conservatism with being anti gay. Most older anti gay people I know have been anti gay since they were old enough to know there were such things as "gay" people . "Becoming" anti gay when you reach middle age is as unlikely as "becoming" gay at forty . Both conditions happen much earlier in life and don't change as you get older.

What exactly does anti-gay mean anyway. Is that just a watered down version of homophobe?

Well it's been a blast. But gotta get the toys ready for what will hopefully be at least a partially nice weekend.

Thanks Bobo for only deleteing one or two of my posts today, have a good one.

People think that your a bigot because you do not believe in homosexuality...

"comrades in your arms", thats what they dont want. Cold nights in the barracks. Holding each other tight. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!

It reminds PAB of his long long long canoe trips with his buddy wearing a dress. That was his NEW Navy. IPOD cranked up to the Village People...In the Navy full blast. Oh how sweet it is....

Another saying is your a liberal in college until you realize Mommy and Daddy are done paying for your college. Then you get a job pay taxes and them you realize that conservative is the way to go. Then you realize that they are both hosed up and become an Independent.

I just walked through the beer isle at Hannafords.

I heard the voices, "come to papa" "come to papa" "come to papa" "come to papa"

I bought a 30 pak of Bud and the voices stopped.

I think I've got it all figured out now.

My wife will be so happy.

frayed ends of sanity

hear them calling you!!

I really think that don't ask don't tell denigrates the maturity and integrity of our men and women in uniform...

Once again the comments are influenced by the law of entropy.

Joshua:

I think eventually this "don't ask, don't tell " policy will be a thing of the past. It is just true, whether some of the "old fogies" on here want to admit it or not, that the younger generation is coming up; it is well-known by most that they , or a lot anyway, do not see it like some on here. They are more tolerant and open to different things. If it proved to be harmful, that is one thing. But it won't adversely affect morale in the military. The ones here who seem to have real hang-ups figure all heterosexual men think like they do. That just isn't the case.

Yes, PaulVo: Inert,etc.

wow again..........

repealing "don't ask, don't tell"....yawn...

I think the 'don't ask don't tell' policy is in place more to protect gay soldiers than to discriminate. Think of all the women complaining of sexual harassment and rape. Do you think the type of men that would do that would tolerate working with gay men? It is unfortunate but there is a lot of violence and testosterone on the front line. It is great these men defend our freedom, but people need to be realistic when talking about these things. People on the front line kill for a living and if they don't like or trust you, you may end up being a casualty.

berettastorm, they are there now and always have been, the "sissies" you worry about. They have served, died and carried themselves with the same bravery as their peers. Did they worry about their mascara as bullets flew through the air, doubt it, they worked with the same training as their comrades. Women in the armed forces are raped at an exponetially higher rate than the general public, so much for valour and courage. The us military has never functioned in a war situation without the support of gay men and women within the ranks and outside of it, never. EJ, my opinion about how the military runs or who it accepts comes from my support of the armed forces, as an American, I can have my opinion and it is neither diminished or elevated by my service.

Demsuk, it is nor more a choice than your choice to be attracted to women, thus the civil right's slant. Gay men are gay just as simply as black men are black and women are women.

Telefunkinu, are you 12?

yes, jspear: It is a well-known fact that women in the military are victims of rape at a higher rate than the general public. This has been in all the media in recent months. Where is the outcry about that? Instead of focusing on a gay person who wants to serve their country, it seems there are some troubling things that go on in the military , and elsewhere, that should be addressed.

jspear - You made the comment that 'gay men are gay just as simply as black man are black and women are women'. Bring on the proof. And where is the proof that rape of women in the military is higher than the general public? I've been associated with the military for 35 years and have never heard anything like that. Supply that proof, too.

EJ, guess I don't have any science, only my experiences and those of the people I know and love. I guess the proof is that gay or straight, people don't choose to be one way or the other, I didn't wake up and decide that I would like to be a type of person hated by people in society, feared of losing my job, housing and denied priviledges that straight people enjoy, that's a life decision alright? Did you decide to be straight, did you wake one morning or after exposure to some great straight people think, that's what I want to be? Where is the proof of that? Maybe you tried both and decided you preferred women to men? As far as the rapes in the service, I guess I get that info from reports of service men burning their pregnant girlfriends and burying them in the back yard and statistics of the rampant sexual abuse and harrassment happening now. I'll look for "proof" but please, show me some that says it is not happening.