Keep fighting the good fight!

Thankful for men like this taking a stand for what is right and honorble in God's eyes. God loves the homosexual, He doesn't love the sin!

Troll (n) One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument .

I look forward to check back o nthis page in a few hours to read the ensuing wargharbl.

This referendum will probably be the last gasp of paleoconservatism in Maine. On the surface, most Mainers would probably agree with Heath. However, how many people nowadays can honestly say that they don't know anyone who is gay; perhaps a valued colleague at work or a beloved family member? And would they feel as comfortable sharing Heath's beliefs as such?

The truly traditional definition of marriage, for thousands of years, has been one man, one woman, and ONE RACE. Why isn't Mr. Heath defending THAT? Clearly the Lord created separate races, and put them on separate continents, for a natural reason. How does he tolerate such unnatural, un-Christian couples as produced our current President?

The fact is that Mr. Heath and his ilk have invented a new "tradition" to suit their fear and hatred of homosexual people. They actually believe that it's better to be heterosexual that to be homosexual. They've decided that heterosexual people are superior. That's the definition of bigotry, homophobia, or if you prefer, heterosupremacy.

As an aside: I don't speak to God personally, but I do get the sense He likes homosexuals quite a bit. Why? He keeps making them (we gotten coverage since Biblical times), He still makes them today (there are perhaps 300,000,000 on earth today) and He fills the animal kingdom with them too (it's been well-documented in over 700 animal species.) Personally, I think our God-given role is to shape-up heterosexuals, teach the children they don't have the time to raise, foster the kids that they didn't mean to produce, and to show them what true love, and marriage, are REALLY about.

What the heck is this opinion piece doing here? The BDN is supposed to be pro-Gay!

tomhenning -- One race? Not so. I challenge you to find that any evidence of that regarding God's word. Animal homosexuals? LMAO -- you are too funny, Tom!

upsidedownia -- did you notice how they titled the piece? One would never know what the "true" subject matter is. You'd think it was about a great fire experienced years ago in Portland. An attempt to "bury" the piece?

I feel sorry for Mr. Heath and those like him. Narrow minds instill narrow hearts. As a heterosexual I have absolutely no problem with the proposed law and will vote to retain it. But if we could vote to send people like Mr. Heath to some distant island where he could be with his own kind abandoned to his version of a narrow-minded God, I would do so. He would find it a lonely place.

glenna ;

Wow Glenna...I was thinking the same about sending homosexuals to some distant island where they could be with their own kind abandoned to their version of a deviant, evil, and sinful coupling!

But how would we as Christians reach them to tell them of the truth about their evil ways?

I will vote to end this foolish liberal democrat law in November!

homosexuals have never been found lacking in any sector of society compared to heterosexuals, why should marriage be any different.

they are not less a father, friend, pastor,counselor,attorney, engineer, soldier,neighbor, brother etc compared to heterosexuals

homosexuals bond out of mutual love, affection, devotion, trust,and respect for shared committed life together……..the same as heterosexuals.

My commendation on a fine article Mr. Heath. Now, for the twentieth time, WHERE CAN I FIND A PETITION TO SIGN??

People aren't born "gay", they're recruited. The top selling point is the lie that it's genetic. If it's genetic, how is it passed down, since "gays" (thankfully) can't breed? Yes, God loves "gays", He sent His Son to die for them, and for the adulterers and murderers and liars and (add sin here until you've included everyone). As for interracial marriage - I challenge you to find a taboo on that in Scripture. We're all just different shades of brown, when you get right down to it.

Guess what, the wonderful young person speaking for same sex marriage is the valedictorian of her class. This is a smart, articulate person speaking her mind, using the free will and speech given to her by god and this great country. She should be supported and encouraged to do just that. Was she speaking for a group or just herself? Isn't she entitled to think for herself, to have thoughts that might be supported by enlightened people of her age? Shouldn't the governor support her right to speak no matter what she is saying? Mr. Heath, your thoughts and feelings, your way of interpretting the world is not shared by the majority of maine, not every person in maine is a christian, some hold to other religious beliefs. Some are willing and able to include and support same sex marriage. They will not evil, that do not worship satan, they are not fornicators or sodomites, they do not wish to have sex with their pets. Before you scare them, threaten them, knock them down or promise eternal damnation, leave the judgement to god. The governor, as the sherriff of Maine, was not outside of the law that he signed into effect by listening to this smart, articulate young woman. I hope he stood and supported her, clapped for her accomplishments, applauded her bravery and strength of character. With people like Mr. Heath in Maine, it takes guts to stand in front of people like Mr. Heath and speak ones feelings and thoughts, knowing that there were people in the crowd who hate what she stands for. Congrats to her and to the governor for being there for her and for the gay and lesbian people of maine. peace

I pick apart Heath's "argument" at Turn Maine Blue:

http://tiny.cc/jDans

Glenna ...if there were such an island I would grab my family and move. So would many people I know.

Mr. Heath says, "I personally have led three such successful petition drives." I know that yes, he did successfully lead the drive to put a people's veto on the ballot to repeal the anti-discrimination law that was passed by the legislature in 2005, but he does not mention that he FAILED to have that law rejected.

He also doesn't mention that he failed, and miserably so, in his drive last summer to get another anti-gay measure on the ballot.

I absolutely agree with jspear. Mr. Heath portrayed the valedictorian as a simpleton who was mindlessly parroting someone else's opinion simply because it's a popular one. That is disrespectful and only serves to show how above us all he thinks he is and that only he knows the "truth."

Speaking of the truth, Maine Family Policy Council was once known as the Christian Civic League of Maine.

Joe

TimGrant:

Are we to use proscriptions against homosexuality in the Bible as a guide for our laws? If so, why are we not to use ALL of them? Are you ready to ban the consumption of lobsters, for instance? Or pork? Will you work to pass laws closing stores on Sunday, and barring sporting events to be held on the Sabbath?

Either use ALL of the Bible or NONE of it. One cannot pick and choose that which suits one's lifestyle.

TimGrant shows that he knows little about homosexuals and about genetics.

Joe

Compare and contrast; one of my high school english teachers drilled that into my head.?

Compare and contrast: Slave rights and gay rights; the contrasts are easy, the comparisons are profound. Slaves could not get legally married either. They could not create and sign contracts, and what is marriage mostly (legally speaking) but a huge contract with thousands of rights and responsibilities.?Navanethem Pillay, the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights spoke there last year saying, "That just like apartheid laws that criminalized sexual relations between different races, laws against homosexuality are increasingly becoming recognized as anachronistic and inconsistent both with international law and with traditional values of dignity, inclusion, and respect for all."?

Apartheid: A system of laws applied to one category of citizens in order to isolate them and keep them from having privileges and opportunities given to all others.?

Stop gay apartheid.

Economic issues matter and marriage is an economic issue. Studies show that married people are slightly healthier (less costs) and wealthier (pay more taxes) than their single counterparts and this is true for gay people as well. Therefore, it is in the state's best economic interest to grant marriage equality. This is because there are thousands of rights and responsibilities that come with the legal contract of marriage (yes, marriage is a legal contract and gay people deserve these contract rights).

Live and let live; the way Maine life should be. As a "friend of the institution of marriage" the sexual orientation of the partners involved is utterly irrelevant to me.

This situation reminds me of that wonderful 60s movie The Russians Are Coming, The Russians Are Coming!.

"THE TRUTH": to which Mr Heath refers that marriage is reserved to a certain class of people is seriously undermined by a US truth that "All people are created equal and that they are endowed with certain inalienable rights, specifically to life liberty AND the pursuit of happiness.

Mr Heath may indeed succeed in forcing his view on the people of Maine, however, the idea of personal freedom will outlast him.

and ElizabethAnn, I would help you pack.

Signed: A straight Female just sick of narrow-minded crap.

The Neo-Con Religious Wrong continues to look dumber every day.

TimGrant wrote:

People aren't born "gay", they're recruited. The top selling point is the lie that it's genetic. If it's genetic, how is it passed down, since "gays" (thankfully) can't breed?

-----------------------

I'm always amused at silly comments like this. So Tim, how EXACTLY are straight people "recruited" into becoming gay? No one ever seems to have an answer to this straightforward question. Also, why EXACTLY would a straight person want to be gay in the first place? Are they looking forward to being ostracized by society? ...and how EXACTLY does a straight person (who is attracted to the opposite sex) force themselves to be attracted to the same sex? I'm looking forward to your responses.

Watch these two YouTube videos from 60 Minutes discussing 'sexuality'. There is absolutely NO DOUBT that people are born with their sexual orientation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOO1Y4OryWY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYEJpcAHz5k

See... education can be fun!

GeraldWeinand: I do use all of the Scripture in its context. The dietary laws, the Sabbath, and many of the ceremonial laws were fulfilled and essentially terminated at the Cross. Read it.

I'm not saying that all Scripture should be law. I'm saying that this is a democracy, people vote and the majority rules. I vote against the "gay" agenda for reasons found in Scripture, which is Truth.

TimGrant, does that mean that everything in Leviticus was "fulfilled and essentially terminated at the Cross"?

upsidedownia: Depends on the context and what the whole rest of the Bible says. Off the cuff I'd say the answer to your question is, "No."

Let it be known that the Person who will have the last word on this subject is the Creator God Himself.

"And as it is appointed unto people once to die, but after this the judgment."

The Bible is the truth because the Bible says it is.

It's that kind of circular logic that made me leave Christianity and become Deiest. Well that and reading about 100 books on how and when the Bible was actually written.

DougRichards: Indeed this is true, and "gay" or "straight", if the person has accepted Christ, the sentence for that judgement has already been paid.

TimGrant:

I have read and studied Scripture. You are free to live your life according to its precepts, and I commend you for living your personal faith.

But it's your personal faith, not mine, nor anyone else's. Is the Bible the only reason you are opposed to same-sex marriage? If so, why are you not trying to enact laws enforcing all the restrictions in the Bible? Why the double standard?

God Says:

Psalm 2

1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,

3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Isn't it amazing. Mr. Heath has had lots of time to think up reasons why marriage equality is bad. But he doesn't even try to present one in this hysterical piece of nothing. He writes that marriage equality is the most important issue to confront the people of maine. Well is if it is that it must have some very serious secular, civil problems that will be caused by the law. But he lists none. He writes that the bill "contravenes every existing law, human or divine". Muslims in many countries allow polygamy. Non-Muslims in Africa allow polygamy. Many cultures allow very different forms of marriage. We frequently change our marriage laws. For example, allowing interracial marriage some 40 years ago.

So why can't Mr. Heath come up with a single practical, civil problem with this law. Well, that's obvious, the problem is in Mr. Heath head not in the law.

TimGrant,

Too funny. Do you sell ignorance or was yours aquired genetically. We have millions of genes. Many involved in sexuality. They act in combination over years to define our sexuality. They produce a range of sexual orientations. Adam had the genes to be gay.

GeraldWeinand: It's not a double standard to fight for the sanctity of marriage, defined as a union of one man and one woman for one lifetime, yet not fight for a law requiring or forbidding something relatively trivial. Abortion is another example of something a Christian should fight against at the human government level. Euthanasia is something to fight against. But (not that I believe in these taboo's - they're examples only) smoking, drinking alcoholic beverages, or (gasp) going to movies? There's no clear Scriptural mandate for or against those.

JonAlbrecht: Indeed by one man sin entered the world, and death by sin. We're all born with the sin nature that could lead to adultery, murder, etc., etc., etc. Don't confuse sin nature with genetics. Should the murderer be allowed to kill at random because he was born to do so? Look who's ignorant now...

guess what, scripture never said homoserxuality was a sin, and i challenge anyone to explain how the words of any particular verse says so. and please, quoting a verse, explains nothing................again....explains nothing............................. and to my fellow believers celebrating, affirming, and supporting homosexuality is christ and of his spirit. 2000 years of christendom has said otherwise by assigning meaning to certain verses IN SPITE OF THEIR WORDS TO VALIDATE CULTURAL UNDERSTANDINGS......................understandings that have been handed down generationally.

TimGrant:

Keeping the Sabbath Holy is hardly a trivial thing, and yet I don't read that you advocating for mandating it in our laws. Why not?

Jesus never mentions homosexuality, and yet speaks at some length about divorce. Why are you not advocating laws that would ban divorce?

Those that are interested in fighting against attempts to overturn LD 1020 can help by contributing to Maine Freedom to Marry at this ActBlue page:

http://www.actblue.com/page/mainefreedomtomarry

so now that we know that homosexuality is not a sin, what is the point of denying them marriage?

Furthermore, there is nothing in the Bible that condemns abortion or states when a fetus is a person and not just potential life....... However as it's been said, the Sabbath, Divorce are all clearly mandated. Furthermore, we're not a theocracy so I don't care what the Bible says when we pass laws.

DavidInHouston: Thanks for sharing that...and great comments.

glenna: I feel sorry for people like Mr Heath as well. He looks kind of sour. True contentment does not seem to come across with that man. The bright young woman who spoke at her graduation I am sure voiced her own values and ideas and thoughts. How arrogant of Mr Heath to imply otherwise; that somehow this very bright young woman was just mimicking or parroting someone else! But then what else would one expect from Mr Heath? He seems to think people are like sheep and just follow. He has got it quite backwards regarding this valedictorian at her graduation. I am sure she will go far in life with many accomplishments; we need more young people like her in the world. She sounds brave, intelligent and full of compassion for her fellow man.

tomhenning: re 7:36 AM I have had that same sense and message.....strongly.....that God likes all his people quite a bit.....regardless of orientation. These are His human beings. What you say is profound in its simplicity and truthfulness.

Mainecommentator: "Paleoconservatism"....not sure I have heard that one before. Pretty accurate description though!

GeraldWeinand: Find something in the New Testament telling me to keep the Sabbath (Saturday) holy. Also, re-read what the Bible says about divorce and you'll find it's not forbidden. Stuff isn't always on or off, sometimes it's just regulated.

Look, if the people push this to referendum then the democratic process rules. Right now the US and State Constitutions are in play, allowing the elected officials to make the rules and in this case, the people to reject bad laws. Until there's an absolute government ruling that says same-sex marriage is allowed, I'll fight against it. It's my Constitutional right to do so. And you can say I'm wrong all you want, it doesn't change my opinion the same-sex marriage law should be struck down. I say - and I have the right to say so - that same-sex marriage is wrong. Welcome to the USA.

No one is questioning your right to say, think or feel anything, we're questioning your "right" to impose your religious beliefs on others. Civil rights can't be voted on, it's in the Constitution. This should not be put to a vote.

MaineExpatriat: When the Bible speaks of pregnancy, the woman is "with child" or words to that effect. The terminology is the same whether the child is inside or outside the womb, with no distinction of which trimester or anything. Abortion is killing a baby, pure and simple. Same-sex marriage is not yet a civil right, nor should it be. By all means it should be put to vote.

If abortion is not killing a human, then destroying bald eagle eggs isn't killing an eagle and I should be able to eat them for breakfast.

TimGrant:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying that the entire Old Testament no longer need be followed? That it is not "the Word of God"?

Regarding divorce, when Jesus was asked this question, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?" (Mark 10:2), He ended his reply thus, "Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate." (Mark 10:9).

Surely, there is only one way to interpret that.

GeraldWeinand: No, I'm not saying the entire Old Testament no longer need be followed. I can say for certainty that none of the sacrificial laws need be followed. There are others. Regarding divorce, Christ also said that Moses allowed it because of the hardness of [men's] hearts. Later Paul talks about divorce and re-marriage. Taken entirely in context divorce is strongly discouraged but not forbidden.

Mr. Heath - Great article, great points, and good luck with your endeavor to negate this immoral bill. We need to re-instill morals in America and quit pandering to groups like the homosexuals that choose this lifestyle. Their entire goal is to remove God from American life so that they have no source for their burning guilt. I wonder what they're going to say to Jesus on Judgment Day when He sentences them to an eternity apart from God. Of course, they won't have to say anything if they repent, accept Jesus Christ as their Savior, and turn away from their sinful lifestyle. You see, as many have stated, God loves everyone, but He cannot accept their sinful lifestyles. Jesus Christ can fix it all.

Finally, to all of you that actually believe in the gay gene theory, it has been debunked by science. And you know what Obama says about science.

Tim Grant - You're holding up well. Keep up the good fight. Deep down inside I believe most everyone knows you're right. They're just too afraid to admit it.

TimGrant, you don't see the difference between an egg and a full-fledged eagle?

(By the way, I think bald eagles have been taken off the endangered species list, so eating eagle eggs might actually be legal.)

EJParsons, gay gene theory has been debunked by science? That's news to me! Please provide a link to the article you are citing.

upsidedownia: I see the same difference between fertilized eagle eggs and eagles as I see in fertilized human eggs and humans. (Wow, never thought I could use "same difference" in a sentence where it actually makes sense.)

TimGrant, unlike you, Jesus actually did recognize the difference between the living, "the quick and the dead" in the Apostle's Creed. I bet you didn't know that "the quick" in this instance means the unborn. Look it up!

TimGrant:

You can say with "certainty" what parts of the Bible need to be followed, and what can be ignored? Really?

EJ, this is NOT a Christian nation, no matter how much you want it to be. The founding fathers were Deists, look it up. And one does NOT need a two-millennia-old work of fiction to lead an exemplary life. Growing up, I never got in trouble in school, never had a detention, I've never been in any legal trouble. I've already met my creators...they're my parents...two of the most intelligent people I've ever known. I was fortunate to not have had dogma force-fed to me when I was younger. I'm fine with people of faith believing what they want, going to church, etc., but once they start trying to push it into public policy, that's where it crosses the line. Separation of church and state.

Oh, and Timmy...majority doesn't rule when it comes to human rights...the Supreme Court will eventually make sure that these perfectly decent, loving, capable people will be able to marry. Then you fundies can cry me a river, build a bridge, and get the heck over it.

Again the Bible is the truth only because the Bible says it is the truth. If someone believes the Bible was written by misogynistic power-hungry men and has no divine inspiration, quoting scripture to them is like peeing into the wind and less productive. I believe in God and I believe the Bible is an historic novel and nothing more.

upsidedownia: Jesus didn't quote the Apostle's creed, that is a document that was generated by the early church and is apart from Scripture. If "quick" refers to the unborn, then Romans 4:17 would indicate that God recycles souls, which just ain't so (even God, who quickeneth the dead). Not all versions of the Apostle's Creed say "the quick and the dead", some say "the living and the dead". The quick are those who are on our side of death, and the dead are those on the other side. Go to http://www.biblegateway.com and do a King James Version search for "quick and dead" (sans quotes). You'll see that the context in every case doesn't support your statement.

MaineExpatriat: Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God, or that he was just a good man? We'll assume there's adequate history (there is) that proves his actual existence. He claimed to be God. If he wasn't God and claimed to be, then he couldn't be a good man, either. He also quoted the major sections of the Old Testament as fact. There is plenty of proof outside the Bible that proves its authenticity. Do a study of aplogetics and you'll see ... there's not time or space here to discuss it fully.

STOP ARGUING SCRIPTURE, it's irrelevant. Yeah I know you're not going to but it's just such a pain in the a$$ on this site that 1/2 the discussions end up in people cutting and pasting Biblical fiction and it's getting to be ridiculous. Even the majority of Christians take the Bible as more metaphoric than verbatim. Guys back up your points with your own thoughts for a change.

From http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/quick.html

The earliest meaning of the word “quick” in English is “alive.” When a baby was first felt to move in its mother’s womb it was considered to have come to life, and this moment was called “quickening.” This original meaning of the word “quick” has now died out except in the phrase “the quick and the dead,” kept alive by the King James translation of Acts 10:42, which speaks of Jesus as judge “of quick and dead,” but even more by the continued recitation of the Apostles’ Creed, which says of Jesus that “he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.”

Tim STOP! I've already been through this when I denounced Christianity. Jesus was a good man, in fact he was the world's first bleeding heart liberal but he was NOT the son of God. Furthermore, Jesus never picked up a stylus and wrote anything, supposedly his disciples did but since his actual words weren't written down until centuries after his crucifixation that's *ahem" debatable.

And don't tell ME to study. Anyone that still believes as you do is the one that needs to broaden his horizons. It isn't knowledge if you only read things that back up your original belief.

There is NOTHING outside of the Bible that proves it is the word of God. NOTHING. There is only more garbage written by the church saying that it is the word of God. This circular knowledge makes me want to kick small animals.

My husband and I are quite content to guard the sanctity of our own marriage, thank you.

Even if the petition is successful, even if the people vote against marriage equality, I believe I will live to see marriage equality. Why? More and more people 30 and under support gay marriage. Our children are more likely to support gay marriage. The majority in opposition will simply die off.

http://pewforum.org/docs/?DocID=39

If I stop having sex with a woman, and start having sex with men only, then I am called homosexual. If I then stop having sex with men and have sex with only women, I am again heterosexual. Or I can do both & be bisexual. But, I was born white and will die white and can't change that. See the difference? Same-sex marriage is NOT a civil right. It's a choice based on a chosen behavior.

It SHOULD go up for vote, if for no other reason than the fact it's such a debated issue.

MaineExpatriat: Don't kick small animals, you'll get in far more trouble doing that, than for killing babies.

MaineExpatriat: Re: STOP ARGUING SCRIPTURE, it's irrelevant: In regard to the final outcome of the democratic process, you are correct. However, the fact that my belief system differs from yours doesn't invalidate my right to debate. Time to vote.

Tim, point missed. My comment was in relation to using scripture to debate laws and civil rights. It's just annoying and proves no point. Of course, you can do it, freedom of speech and all as I am equally free to point out how useless it is.

Tim in response to 1:15 PM, what you don't know about sexuality is everything. People don't change their orientation. Some people do live closeted lives. There are gay men that have been married to women because they wanted "straight" lives but they were still gay. I went through school with two boys that everyone thought were gay (this was beginning in the 60's), guess what, they both were. I have twin cousins that are gay. Their mother always knew that they were gay (she had 5 kids) she knew before they did but let them find out for themselves (didn't want you to think it was motherly inference 'CAUSE IT WASN'T). God makes people straight and gay. I don't know why but when I meet him I'll ask him for you.

tim grant

scripture is god breathed, and is inerrant, and it still doesnt say homosexuality is a sin. it says celebrating, supporting, and affirming homosexuality is of christ.

feetxxxl: Correct on Scripture, dead wrong on homosexuality.

feetxxxl: Leviticus 18:22, 20:13; Romans 1:27. Ain't no way that supports homosexuality.

So which is it, Tim? You just said that being gay is a choice, "It's a choice based on a chosen behavior." But earlier you said that straight people are converted into being gay, "People aren't born 'gay', they're recruited." So do gay people choose their sexual orientation or are they recruited? The idea that heterosexuality, homosexuality and bisexuality are ALL interchangeable is ludicrous. As a heterosexual man, it would be absolutely impossible for you to be aroused by another man. Please don't lie, and say otherwise. No one will believe you.

... and I'm still waiting for you to respond to the 3 questions I posted above.

tim grant

guess what, scripture never said homoserxuality was a sin, and i challenge anyone to explain how the words of any particular verse says so. and please, quoting a verse, explains nothing................again....explains nothing

MaineExpatriat:

Always important to remember that many more people read these boards than participate in them.

I know that I will not change TimGrant's mind, nor do I want to do so. What I am trying to make clear to others that are reading is that opponents to same-sex marriage that use Scripture for their reasoning are either a) hypocrites, or b) intend to reach further and impose all of the restrictions of Scripture on our society.

There are not too many in the second group, thankfully.

So, in making the hypocrisy obvious - that opponents only are picking and choosing what parts of the Bible to follow, while ignoring others, their entire method of reasoning is weak.

In TimGrant's case, he writes that he is "certain" that some parts of the Old Testament need not be followed, while other parts should be. Who is he to decide that? What if he is wrong? Could he also be wrong about same-sex marriage?

I'm sure that TimGrant is a fine upstanding fellow, and I wish him well. But it seems he needs to wroory about the plank in his own eye before he considers the speck of dust in his neighbor's.

DavidInHouston: I'll retract the absolute statement that "gays" are recruited, because absolute statements are often false (like "No one will believe you") and because I lack the time to develop the argument. I'll say that they are sometimes persuaded by someone who is determined. I will continue to say that homosexuality is a choice, and you can't prove me wrong. It's a choice just like a lot of other behavior. If it were not a choice, it would likely be not so common to find former homosexuals.

Tim,

I've never met a former homosexual. They are still a homosexual just no longer living a gay life BIG DIFFERENCE! And yes it can be proven all you have to do is know someone that's gay. I know you will never accept this and that is your problem and I don't hold it against you but I do feel a little sorry for you.

tim grant

lev not all prohibitions of themselves were sins, women wearing mens clothes also deemed abominable, and there were directives that today would be considered intolerable evils.. "take slaves for life, to be given as inheritance capital" as far as new testament scripture...................explain the words!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Maineexpatriat..or formerly mainelyme. You said there is nothing in the Bible about abortion....yes there is. "Thou shalt not kill".

Homosexuality is not the only reason I would leave this country. Too much government control and too much immorality. Not a good place to rasise kids anymore. Families don't have much of a chance.

ElizabethAnn. ... I have never posted as anyone but MaineExpatriat. Why don't you write a letter to BDN, you and 4HimToday. They can compare IP addresses and see that I'm posting in Boston. So I'm not any of these people you two keep accusing me of being. 75 to 80% of Americans refuse to link themselves to the Republican party these days. It blows my mind that you think it's impossible that there are two Democrats in America. Get a Grip..

"Thou Shalt Not Kill" applies to potential life? NOPE! but it doesn't seem to bother neo-cons when it comes to the death penalty (ENDING LIFE). There's a heapin' helpin' of hypocrisy for you.

Give me your address Elizabeth, I won't just help you pack, I'll pay your moving expenses.

Elizabethann and MaineExpatriat...I believe that the generally accepted translation is "Thou shalt not murder".

I'll say one thing - it may be about time to build an Ark!

MaineExpatriat: Not only is abortion murder, it is in the first degree (pre-meditated). Again all Scripture in its context, you'll also find that capital punishment, the taking of a life by the government, is recommended in certain cases. It's not hypocrisy or inconsistent to be against abortion yet in favor of capital punishment.

Abortion is not murder according to the laws of this country because the unborn are not considered "living." In order to be considered "living," the unborn child must be able to live outside of the womb, independent of the mother.

Thou shalt not kill. NOT thou shalt not murder. To all of those who oppose abortion, I ask: How many children have you adopted? There are too many in the system to count, more that are born into families that do not feed them, clothe them, or even love them. Until you are able to take ALL of these kids into your home, do you really have an opinion? I used to be 'pro-life' then this same question was asked of me. I wouldn't have an abortion myself, but it's not for anyone else to choose. Thou shalt not judge is also a BIG ONE.

upsidedownia...your 3:34 PM post is not universally accepted in all 50 states. In many states a person who takes the life of a pregnant woman and the fetus (baby) dies also, can and is charged with two counts of murder (or man slaughter) one for the mother and one for the fetus (baby).

tim grant

"Ain't no way that supports homosexuality".

what supports homosexuality.......................homosexuals have never been found wanting in any sector of society compared to heterosexuals. they are not less a brother, friend, counselor, attorney, soldier, pastor, engineer etc

homosexuals bond out of mutual love, affection, devotion, respect, and trust for a shared commited life together, the same as heterosexuals.

scripture..........the essence of all new covenant law.................".love your neighbor as yourself". jesus words "ÿou will recognize them by the fruit of the spirit."

"a good tree cannot produce bad fruit. " under the new covenant we are led by and serve of the holy spirit and live under grace which is also spirit. under the new covenant we are no longer have a relationship to god thru regulation as in deut 28 but directly thru the one who lives in each believer.....christ.

Tim in your post 3:27 PM you forget to write - in my rather bizaare view of the world......

JD murder/kill - who cares.

Upsidedownia YES! It's potential life, nothing more.

jd2008, Yes I think an exception is made in those types of cases because the mother intended to bring the child to term. However it does inform the law of the land in all 50 states in regard to abortion.

MaineExpatriat....one needs to explain the difference between kill and murder?

I wonder if there is a country that would suit those who wish to leave because of gay rights, too much government and too much immorality?

"thou shalt not kill", Is it "kill" or "murder"? Some states "kill" murderers. Some countries kill for 'immorality'. The Bible lists many "sins" worthy of 'killing'/'death' and yet we have the commandment, do not murder unjustly.

Again we have those who will take the postings off topic. This is about Michael Heath begging for help to repeal a law that has been passed. Last year his issue was far broader than same-gender marriage, it included Civil Rights teams, civil unions, domestic partnerships, adoption and the anti-discrimination law all rolled into one. The potential repeal of all these above reached into the lives of many other people, not just gays and lesbians. It would have taken away rights already given. The law passed states that churches/individuals/clergy will NOT be forced to perform marriages for same-gender couples, making the religious objection moot, in my opinion. And remember, no "marriage" is legal without the involvement of civil law, if you don't have the license and file it with the state, it is not a legal marriage. Civil Marriage is 100% Civil Law. Holy Matrimony is a combination of Civil Law and Church.

JACK

JD... no! it was a silly comment you made, hence my "who cares"

I feel very bad for you if you do not know and/or care about the difference between these two words.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31528426/ns/us_news-faith/

Very disturbing....

Whatever JD, hope it doesn't ruin your evening.

This was fun, hope there's a story about umm.... gun control tomorrow.

Internet discussions (even heated ones) are a blast. Tim, finally something we agree on. : - )

MaineExpatriat...it would take a lot more than a "whatever" to ruin my evening.

ok, JD I don't care. The difference between kill and murder is a discussion that even I consider too lame to debate. I'm sorry. Have a nice evening.

oh and it was the "I feel very bad for you if you do not know and/or care about the difference between these two words" that I said the "hope it doesn't ruin your evening" to. Meaning... yeah, like, totally whatever

TimGrant...do you even know a gay person? Gay people are recruited?? Yeah, I signed up at the gay recruitment office. It was right next to the straight recruitment office and across the street from the one for people wanting natural red hair. If you desired to be left-handed, that recruitment office was two blocks over.

The only thing we gays are recruiting is support in for equality.

To anyone coming at this from an ignorant, religious place...try talking to a gay person before showing us how little you know about the topic.

The website (article) I posted at 4:12 PM tells about a place (this one happened to be in Conn) where they try and "exorcise" young people who lean towards being homosexual. Hopefully, there are not many of these places!

Cf. "quick" and "quickening": indeed, this did refer to once the fetus could be felt moving in the womb. This was the point at which Christians up until only a few hundred years ago believed that life began. And isn't it interesting that that time is just about 3 months, i.e., end of the first trimester (when, in fact, most abortions are performed)?!

these conservative mice they run out making all kinds of claims. as soon as you confront them, they disappear behind a wall of unavailibility.......... albert mohler, joel olstein, franklin graham, pat roberston, and rick warren to name a few.

free2bee: In the long run, someone like Michael Heath will not get very far with his agenda or whatever you want to call it....he just won't. Not in the long run.

MaineExpatriat: You have not gone around "personally" attacking people as some here have in the past. I can't believe some are questioning that you are more than one person on here.

GeraldWeinard: re 3:19 PM Funny....I enjoyed that! And your comments at 2:37 PM were very intelligent and well-said.

Kristin006: Yes!

MaineExpatriat: Hope you did not mean the part about the animals, and not sure what you were saying there, but whatever.

steve2112: I have said it before as have others.....and now you have.....the majority does not rule when it comes to human rights.

Mr EJParsons mistakenly says, often , that people who think differently than he does, are "afraid." That is , I don't know, but it comes across as arrogant, as in he has figured out what is in others' minds and hearts. You do not, Mr Parsons. There are many people in this world, and they do not all think as you do. Which, sir, does not at all translate that they are afraid. That is what you like to think....not much more.

Mr Weinard: I know many people who believe in keeping the Sabbath (Saturday) holy, and I am glad they do!

For those of you claiming homosexuality is a "lifestyle", that is a false and ignorant statement. Homosexuality is not a choice. Just like you don't choose the color of your skin, you cannot choose whom you are sexually attracted to. If you can, sorry, but you are not heterosexual, you are bi-sexual. Virtually all major psychological and medical experts agree that sexual orientation is NOT a choice. Most gay people will tell you its not a choice. Common sense will tell you its not a choice. While science is relatively new to studying homosexuality, studies tend to indicate that its biological.

http://www-news.uchicago.edu/releases/03/differential-brain-activation.pdf

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/sex/dn14146-gay-brains-structured-like-those-of-the-opposite-sex.html

Gay, Straight Men's Brain Responses Differ

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,155990,00.html

http://www.livescience.com/health/060224_gay_genes.html

http://www.springerlink.com/content/w27453600k586276/

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2008/06/16/172/

There is overwhelming scientific evidence that homosexuality is not a choice. Sexual orientation is generally a biological trait that is determined pre-natally, although there is no one certain thing that explains all of the cases. "Nurture" may have some effect, but for the most part it is biological.

Here is why the slippery slope argument fails.

Let us take the 4 common arguments: beastiality, pedophilia, incest, and polygamy. First off, all 4 of these are fetishes, and irrelevant to homosexuality, which is a sexual orientation. Let me distinguish this for you using incest as an example. If a guy into incest is straight, he'll choose his sister, and if he's gay, he'll choose his brother. See the distinguishment? Now pedophilia and beastiality will never be legal, because both are non-consenting and harmful, whereas homosexuality is 2 loving consenting adults that is not wrong or harmful. Incest, also has been shown to lead to genetic defects, so that is also out of the question. Incest also is a fetish, not a sexual orientation. I have never seen a person exclusively attracted to their brothers/sisters etc. Which leaves polygamy. Now i'll prove why homosexuality also won't lead to polygamy.

Who the two people getting married are, is a completely different question in law than how many people can marry. The states have all agreed to prohibit polygamous marriage. They have given numerous public policy reasons and the prohibition stands.

Equal protect applies so long as a rational public policy reason exists to prohibit certain marriages.What is the rational public policy reason for prohibiting a gay couple from marrying? Six states and seven jurisdictions have said there isn't one.

No court or legislature has made a finding that letting two people of the same-sex marry will somehow permit more than two people of any gender to marry. Allowing prisoners to marry and allowing inter-racial couples to marry didn't make polygamy acceptable and it didn't make all married couples criminals or bi-racial. You have no point, you are relying on assumptions and "what ifs" that have been proven to be myths and false. There is no evidence showing gay marriage having a higher chance of leading to polygamy than heterosexual marriage.

All 50 states and the federal government have said there is a public policy reason to prohibit polygamous marriages. With 5 years of gay marriage in Massachusetts, no one has asked to marry more than one other person in Massachusetts, let alone say the 14th amendment of the US Constitution gives them that right.

The slippery slope is a myth meant as a scare tactic that's quickly becoming obsolete.

Homosexuality is not a sin according to the Bible. Any educated Christian would know that. Scholars who have studied the Bible in context of the times and in relation to other passages have shown those passages (Leviticus, Corinthians, Romans, etc) have nothing to do with homosexuality. These passages often cherry-picked while ignoring the rest of the Bible. The sins theses passages are referring to are idolatry, prostitution, and rape, not homosexuality.

http://www.soulfoodministry.org/docs/English/NotASin.htm

http://www.jesus21.com/content/sex/bible_homosexuality_print.html

http://www.christchapel.com/romans_inter.html

http://www.stjohnsmcc.org/new/BibleAbuse/BiblicalReferences.php

http://www.gaychristian101.com/

Thats why Jesus never mentions it as well. There is nothing immoral, wrong, or sinful about being gay. Jesus, however, clearly states he HATES hypocrites. If you preach goodness, then promote hate and twist the words of the Bible, you are a hypocrite, and will be judged and sent to hell. Homosexuals will not go to hell, hypocrites will.

This is very similar to the religious bigots of the past, where they took Bible passages to condone slavery, keep women down, and used Bible passages to claim blacks as curses who should be enslaved by the white man. People used God to claim that blacks marrying whites was unnatural, and not of God's will.

Violence against a minority group

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_LGBT_people

Gays are being beaten, shot at, sent to the hospital, killed. In the Middle East, they are killing gays among other groups out of hatred. Is this what we want America to become? Do we want America to revert back to the 1960's when groups were killed and segregated against for simply no good reason? Do we want to follow the ways of the Middle East and Al Queda? Let's push forward, it's time to end bigotry, discrimination, hate, and ignorance. This is modern America, not the Dark Ages.

Shadowman...great posts. I want to clarify one thing though, before "they" jump all over it. There is an aspect of homosexuality that is a choice, and that is behavior. But, it needs to be stressed that homosexual behavior, like that of heterosexuals, is based on one's orientation. And it's the orientation that is not the choice, it's part of one's natural state of being.

If anyone wants to argue that with me, you should know that I'm gay and grew up in the straightest town you could imagine, before the Internet, before any gay-themed TV shows. My parents were very kind and loving, and my only sibling (a brother) is straight.

But from a very early age, when all the guys were noticing girls, I was noticing other guys. A well-guarded secret that I kept until I was 44. At that point, I did make a choice...the best one I've ever made.

Talk about being born again...I and don't mean religion.

The traditional definition of marriage is the purchase of a woman from her father by a man of her own race, into a relationship in which the man has all the rights and the woman has none. I thought the United States had left such barbarism behind in the 20th century.

Actually there are six kinds of marriage mentioned in the bible, which also include the marriage of a man to his female slave (her permission is not involved in any way), and one in which a man who wants to marry a woman whose family isn't willing simply rapes her and then she is forced to marry him.

Fortunately, none of the six kinds of marriage mentioned in the bible is legal today.

I am appalled that the Bangor Daily News would choose to publish such a bigoted and defamatory "opinion piece". It speaks negatively about the judgment of the editors.

Michael Heath, thank you for your tireless effort in defeating this immorality. I've personally heard you speak at church several times and something you stated once years ago I still to this day think about, and that was that there comes a time when we as Christians need to draw the line in the sand in regards to sin and say "no more, this is far enough". This sinful, lustful perversion has gotten out of hand, the time has come to say "enough". For those of us that want it to stop we indeed need to let our voices be heard loud and clear, get out and sign the petitions.

Would like to also say to TimGrant, nice job today! People that try and use the bible to support this sin are clearly ignorant of scripture and the Person of Jesus Christ, God incarnate. As Christians we are called to make a stand against sinful behavior.

I wish there was an "ignore" feature on this board. I really need to get better at just skipping over certain posters.

There are many people who live in this state who are not Christian. Must they abide by the laws of the state of Maine and the USA, or those of the Christian Bible?

Joe

There are many Christians that don't believe the Bible is law. There are many Christians that are gay (because God made them that way). There are many Christians that believe the Bible is the word and still live ugly, amoral lives. There are many non-Christians that live beautiful, giving, caring lives.

Christian means squat when discussing sin or morality. No group of people is any more moral than any other.

"People that try and use the bible to support this sin are clearly ignorant of scripture and the Person of Jesus Christ, God incarnate. As Christians we are called to make a stand against sinful behavior."

that's the best you or tim grant are able to offer a denegation......................... an aspersion. but you, tim and the six i named willl not or cannot engage in anything that resembles objective reason, objective reason is what paul used, throughout his epistles.

Immorality, is denying an entire group, same sex citizens, the same rights in total as any other American.

I have witnessed same sex parents adopt and care for children, I was humbled to see the nurturing they so tenderly gave their adopted baby girls. The couple were 2 gay males. They made sure to have all the things children need to thrive and be safe and loved. They took the girls to church every Sunday, participated in social groups with the girls, bought them the correct safety items such as car seats and safety cribs, etc. This couple was in it for life. They loved and they cared.

TimGrant -- While I don't agree with all of your statements, I do agree with some. What I don't agree with is people putting the thumbs down on your comments, so I support you in your freedom to give your opinion. You need to complain to the BDN when those who want to stifle you click the thumbs down until your comments disappear.

it is intersting that the most entrenched beliefs among believers are about issues that few, if any sermons are given and even fewer about the concerning scriptures......................women pastoring in church, excommunication or expulsion, homosexuality, sodomy. the question......................how did they become so entrenched.................................the beliefs were handed down generationally.

non believers are no different

forHIMtoday wrote:

...This sinful, lustful perversion has gotten out of hand, the time has come to say "enough". For those of us that want it to stop we indeed need to let our voices be heard loud and clear, get out and sign the petitions.

...As Christians we are called to make a stand against sinful behavior.

=======================

I'm still trying to figure out how a person's innate sexual orientation can be a sinful behavior. So the American Psychological Association (and every other mental health organization) has been wrong about homosexuality for the past 34 years? Interesting.

So, let me get this straight. Governor Mark Sanford who has continually preached about the "sanctity of marriage", cheated on his wife for a year. Yet because he is heterosexual, he is better than all gay people by default. Meanwhile he has used his "morally superior" religious beliefs to vote against gay marriage, civil unions and gay adoptions. You don't see the LEAST bit of hypocrisy here?! If anyone qualifies for perverse sinful behavior, I'd say it's Mr. Sanford.

The great thing about this country is that the younger generation knows that it's unacceptable for Christians to try and dictate civil law based on their particular beliefs. They also know that our country is not a theocracy, and they won't tolerate minority groups being discriminated against. You have the right to CHOOSE your religion. But you don't have the right to use those CHOSEN beliefs to restrict the rights of other tax-paying citizens. Every American deserves the exactly SAME rights, regardless of their sexual orientation.

feetxxxl: For some reason, I am having some trouble seeing where you are coming from with your remarks. Do you support the right of same -sex couples to marry, or not? I am not quite getting your points sometimes. Sorry....

DavidInHouston: I appreciate your comments. And yes, as the mother of children in their 20's (younger generation), I know their attitudes are very different. It is not the "big deal" it is to some others. They regard people as human beings and appreciate that there are people with varying ways of looking at things.....and they , for the most part, cannot countenance some of their fellow human beings being denied basic rights, such as the right to marry.

Re hypocrisy, the Governor of South Carolina,etc.....yes, you make a very valid and thought-provoking comment about that. I think many , many of us do see the hypocrisy there!

Heath, it's people like you who are driving people away from the Church in droves.

I really and truly hope you and your kind realize how badly you've screwed the Church and Christ over.

And I hope that leads you to change your hideous view of this world.

feet, it is inconcievable to me that someone who stands so anti-gay marriage can be given even a tiny bit of a pass after acknowledging that he so disrespected his wife and the sanctity of marriage. But don't be misled, there will be gay and lesbians who will also cheat. My hope is that we are all given the rights to enter into this contract and that will not be based on who we love or who we are, only that we are consenting adults. I think we'll probably screw it up as well. peace

"...This sinful, lustful perversion has gotten out of hand,"

because that reality is in your head does not mean it exists in the world. do you have one single witness thru a 1john1 witness in fellowship in christ with another. god's spirit lives in his people...................remember, the holy of holies is in you.

"For some reason, I am having some trouble seeing where you are coming from "

read the thread

jspear

i dont understand what you are saying.

Mark Sanford - from a liberal perspective - He lied! He deceived his staff! He cheated on his wife! He let the people of South Carolina down! So what! None of these things are against the law. Leave it be. Let him get on with his job. He's no more guilty than you or I.

Mark Sanford - from a conservative perspective - He lied! He deceived his staff! He cheated on his wife! He let the people of South Carolina down! He's gotta' go! He can't be trusted to represent me anymore.

Funny thing, I don't hear either of these groups saying anything like this. The liberals are crucifying him and the conservatives are sticking up for him. In other words, it's politics as usual. For me, I've lost all faith in him and he needs to go.

"This sinful, lustful perversion has gotten out of hand, "

are you familiar with paul's words. "all things permissable not all things are beneficial." that means that all things are permissable that dont come against the second commmandment(love your neighbor......................................)the summation of all new covenant law. there is no more any relationship to god thru regulation in deut 28.

that means all physicalities are permissable..................things like anal sex between men................................the concern is not the act but the spirit for why the act is engaged in. the spirit that makes it beneficial is that the act is an expression of human bonding................an expression of the devotion, affection, commitment, and the love in the relationship. homosexual believing marriages are filled with the fruit of the spirit in the same way as believing heterosexual marriages.

REEDIT

"This sinful, lustful perversion has gotten out of hand, "

are you familiar with paul's words. "all things ARE permissable, not all things are beneficial." that means that all things are permissable that dont come against the second commmandment(love your neighbor......................................)the summation of all new covenant law. there is no more relationship to god thru regulation in deut 28.

that means THAT all physicalities are permissable..................things like anal sex between men................................the concern is not the act, but the spirit for why the act is engaged in. the spirit that makes it beneficial is that the act is an expression of human bonding................an expression.... of the devotion, affection, commitment, and the love in the relationship. homosexual believing marriages are filled with the fruit of the spirit in the same way as believing heterosexual marriages.

ej, no matter who is looking at him, he betrayed his wife and the hopes and dreams of the people he was elected to serve. Liberals like to lynch people who are so righteous and so anti things, the clip I saw of his lambasting of Bill C is profound. He did not live the values that he spouted and for that, he deserves the negative press. I agree with you, be he who he was or anyone else, he let his family and his state down and should resign.

feet, I guess what I'm saying is that all I can ask for is the chance to try, that gay men and women will not be any better or worse then straight in respecting each other and being responsible members of a couple. They'll cheat and they'll fall out of love and into love with someone other than their wife or husband. I only want the chance to try. Having 15 plus years in already, I hope I've worked out the kinks.....so to speak......

Mr. Heath, I agree with you, marriage will last longer than maine granite, people will come together to lift each other up as long as there are people. My belief shifts from yours as I am convinced that marriage will include all consenting adults, soon I think, and that people like you, people who hate and judge and scare and lable and box people into a narrow way of thinking will be beat back on this issue and the righteous, level headed people of maine will not vote for discrimination, again.

"Having 15 plus years in already, I hope I've worked out the kinks.....so to speak...... "

dont be hard on yourself.................we are all sinners both heterosexuals and homosexuals. each of us stands and falls on his own merit.

feetxxx, you have a perverted view of the gospel. There's no other way to put it. Your theology is so far off in left field I'm not sure if your just fishing for an argument or if your mind is actually that darkened. But then again The book of Romans does say that God gave them over to their degrading passions.

"feetxxx, you have a perverted view of the gospel." everything i have said is scriptural.

what is your scriptural understanding of the gospel. please annotate.

what scripture that i have annotated have i used wrong. again please annotate

jspear - 8:51 - You're right, he should go. It's just too bad that he'll be the the headline, along with Michael Jackson, for the next week while the cap and trade tax fiasco is pushed through in the dark of night so that Al Gore and friends will get even richer. For the most part, the mainstream media couldn't give a hoot about Sanford or Jackson as long as they get their agenda through. And they'll never get it through if they have to report that it's going on.

"Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix."

-Judge Leon Bazile, sentencing the Loving (Virginia) couple to one year in prison back in 1959 for committing the act of interracial marriage

We all know where Heath and the rest get their Bible information about "homosexuality" - LEVITICUS 18:22 - "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable." Assuming we totally ignore the Constitutional Separation of Church and State and imagine we live in a Fundamentalist Christian Theocracy where the freedom to practice any other religion is illegal (which is what these bigots envision because it puts them in power), what else would be true? That reality is that all Biblical condemnations against homosexuality in the Bible (if it's even really mentioned at all) are selectively and narrowly interpreted, leaving out A LOT. Mike Heath and the like can't answer to the scripture below (best to just sweep it under the carpet), nor can they comprehend the separation of church and state. Sometimes they refer to the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, which is actually a story condemning rape and then following the destruction of the cities, God honors a father (Lot) who is intoxicated and raped by his two daughters, who then bear his incestuous children. Apparently the fundamentalists believe that incest, rape, and drunkenness are honorable, while condemning what they have called homosexuality in the Bible.

LEVITICUS 25:42-44

For they are my servants, which I brought forth out of the land of Egypt: they shall not be sold as bondmen.

Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.

JEREMIAH 13:23

Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

LEVITICUS 11:10-13

And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you: They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination. Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you. And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination

LEVITICUS 20:9

For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him

I'm too tired to list the condemnations against shaving, eating pork, wearing different clothing, or planting different kinds of seed, but they are all abominations. Notice how eating shellfish is much more of an abomination than so-called homosexuality. Leviticus 19:27, 11:7, and 19:19.

Additionally, if same-sex relationships are spoken off in the Bible at all, they are certainly POSITIVE and honored by God just as any loving relationship between couples of the opposite sex. There's Jonathan and David - see 1 Samuel 18:1, 1 Samuel 18:2, 1 Samuel 18:3-4, 1 Samuel 20:41, and 2 Samuel 1:26...

The soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul

From that day, Saul kept David with him and did not let him return to his father's house

And Jonathan made a covenant with David because he loved him as himself. Jonathan took off the robe he was wearing and gave it to David, along with his tunic, and even his sword, his bow and his belt.

After the boy had gone, David got up from the south side of the stone and bowed down before Jonathan three times, with is face to the ground. Then they kissed each other and wept together - but David wept the most.

I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother; you were very dear to me. Your love for me was wonderful, more wonderful than that of women.

Then of course the beautiful romance between Ruth and Naomi - Ruth 1:16-17 and 2:10-1...

Where you go I will go, and where you stay I will stay. Your people will be my people and your God my God. Where you die I will die, and there I will be buried. May the Lord deal with me, be it ever so severely, if anything but death separates you and me.

There is also Daniel and Ashpenaz, but that is debated because of the use of the word "Eunuch." Actually, all the words in the Bible that have been translated into "homosexual" don't mean that. There are words like catamite (boy slave), sodomite (rapist - male to male rape was used as a form of oppression/shaming after one nation conquered another), and eunuch, which probably meant someone who was castrated. The words homosexual, gay, and lesbian do not exist in the Bible. Actually, neither does the word marriage. It's just a concept in the Bible - that a man leave his family, and it's clear that a man or woman can leave their family for either a another man or another woman, whether they are gay or straight. It's clear from the relationships between David and Jonathan, Ruth and Naomi that the Christian God not only tolerates same-sex relationships, but honors them as equals.

But really, the best argument is that the Church has no place in government. Separation of Church and State, people! Maybe I should submit a bill to start taxing Churches and then *POOF* all the fundamentalists will suddenly remember the Constitution. Haha.

2005...Mainers overwhelmingly vote NO to discrimination against gay and lesbian people (about 55% to 45%).

2008...Mike Heath's "Act to Define Marriage, Preserve Equality and Eliminate Special Rights for Homosexuality" FAILS miserably as Maine Voters Refuse to Sign Anti-Gay Ballot Petition

2009...Opposition to Marriage Equality outnumbered 4 to 1 at Judiciary Hearing in Augusta. Judiciary favors Marriage Equality 11 to 2, House favors Marriage Equality 89-58, Senate favors Marriage Equality 21-14, Governor Baldacci signs Marriage Equality into law. Attorney General Janet Mills publicly supports Marriage Equality and spoke at the Judiciary Hearing in favor of LD 1020.

History shows us that supporters of Marriage Equality will win. The opposition should pack their bags of hate and go back to murdering abortionists.

SunnyF: Thanks for sharing that. re 12:26 PM. No denying it. These people here who are always quoting certain parts of the Bible, conveniently overlook a lot that is in there that does not fit in with their stands on certain issues.

In addition, the majority can not override the rights of minorities.

Patience folks... right-wing zealots have always attempted to stand in the way of civil rights.. and this time is no different.

It is my hope that my adopted home of Maine will vote sensibly and keep marriage equality in place. If folks veto it, then it's just a matter of time.

As with previous civil rights issues of the past, the federal government will eventually come 'round on this issue, and then no state will have the authority to treat classes of citizens differently on the basis of sexual orientation.

It will happen, and Heath and his kind will lose.

add to that............ there was a transposition of the word "homosexual" in the late 1800"s into 1tim and 1cor(2books of the new testament), as a sin, for the (kjv) original translation phrase "defiling themselves with mankind" WITHOUT ANY WRITTEN EXPLANATION. it was done in england (no seperation between church and state..........queen victoria was head of the church....the victorian era was responsible for a number of sexually repressive attitudes). up to that time there had been a 400 year old law on the books, that punished homosexual sex with hanging(it had been enacted by king henry the 8th(1500's) another head of the church). the translation was never challengeable because homosexuality was illegal. english settlers who came to this country immediately made laws about this issue with different punishments. it has remained illegal, because of this transposition, and therefore unchallengable until the 1990's.

is there any greater example of the benefit of seperation between church and state. it has been the state that led the rescue from persecution, not the church. the majority of the church has been resistance to this.

to believers....................................the fact that the church( regardless of the transposition, and homosexuality being illegal) led the understanding that homosexuality was a sin, is an indication that it has yet to fully embrace the new covenant of christ. the church still appears to hold onto the understanding that they are led by and live under regulation(catholics, anglicans, and baptists............. unchallengable regulation) and they appear to believe they still have a relationship to god thru regulation as in deut 28, instead of directly to the one who lives in them.

tedlick: Yes, it will happen (when, we don't know exactly.).....and compassion, reason, decency and love will win out in the end!

to believers.......................part of our relationship to the one who lives in us is to test everything(1thess5:21 test everything, keep the good) thru the spirit of the one who lives in us.

to trump this testing relationship with regulation, diminishes it and therefore comes against christ.

feetxxl:

I do not understand your posts quite often. When you say "believers", who do you refer to? Believers and supporters of same-sex marriage? I find some of what you say confusing and do not know what you support, or do not. I think you believe in the treating same-sex couples with fairness.....as you would want to be treated. Guess that is what you mean, but not real sure.

Let me preface my point by saying I know and care for/about a number of homosexual people. These are kind, caring, hard-working people living in my circle of friends and coworkers. I consider them friends and the feeling is mutual. However, most of them know that I do not believe in homosexual marriage -- some of them agree with me and some of them do not. We do not hate one another or have problems among us because of these differences. We live our lives, do our work, and get along. We eat an occasional meal together and work in tandem.

Here is my point of view: If one chooses to call a union between same sex couples marriage, it is simply untrue. There is no such thing, regardless of what the law says. Period. I will vote against calling homosexual relationships marriage for a number of reasons: morals, ethics, traditions, and more. That is my firm belief. That does not make me a homophobe or an evil person. My convictions and my freedom to state them honestly and live by them faithfully simply makes me an honest person, not a hater or a fearer of anyone.

And that brings up a point. You don't have to agree with people to care about them. Parents only have to look at their children to understand it is very possible to disagree with a person's beliefs and/or actions, and still love him or her. Children can look at their parents and understand the same concept. So far in America we've been FREE to hold and cherish our own, personal convictions and beliefs without fear of reprisal.

Carol, I wouldn't ask people to change their feelings towards homosexuality, your feelings are really of no concern to those of us who consider ourselves gay. What I am asking is that the state of maine treat me with equality, not discriminate against me with a law or the exclusion of me from a right granted by law. Your thoughts are yours to have, exclusion though is discrimination. What if your thoughts were that black men shouldn't own property or that women shouldn't vote. It does not make that the law of the land. Your thoughts are your own and I support you in having them. My rights are either granted or taken away by the laws of this country and the state regardless of your committment for or against them. peace

jspear, immorality has no right.

carol, very well said.

Well put Carol......I have the same views. I am not a hate monger because I don't agree with homo-sexual marriage. We want what is best for society and individuals. We want the to keep and encourage the dignity of the human person and we want the laws and our institutions of learning and health to do the same.

Again I ask: what catastrophe awaits us when marriage equality is a fact of life?

Again I ask: would you feel any different if it were called "civil unions" but offered equal recognition by our government?

Carol1 your 12:36 posting is spot on and I agree whole heartedly....great comments, thank you....

Carol1 : Yes, everyone should be able to feel free from reprisal.....everyone. We will hope what happened to Charlie Howard, the gay man, in Bangor in the 80's will never happen again. That was what you might call some kind of "reprisal." You most likely know what happened to him so will not go into it.

Elizabethann: "We want to keep and encourage the dignity of the human person",etc. Aren't people who are gay, "human", as well?

I am not gay and whatever happens, happens. It will go to a vote from what I understand and maybe it will go the way you wish. Who knows....

Cher...we are to be the people God created us to be. A holy people. We all have temptations we need to over come. Homesexuality is one of them.

Tedlick they can't and won't answer your questions, especially the first because they know the true answer is no catastrophe, no problem, nothing. They live right next door to a state that's had gay marriage for 5 years, so they know it isn't a problem. I don't understand why they care, I don't and I never will. Their protestations that it is a sin etc. ring weak and hollow. My God doesn't need or want their help, he's not that much of a wimp. I think they need to pray to a better God.

MaineExpatriat,

I knew they wouldn't answer the questions when I asked them. You are correct that their protestations are very weak and hollow.

They won't tell us what catastrophe will await us, because there will be no catastrophe. And they won't answer the question on civil unions because for them, it's a holy war of their own interpretation and they know if they say "no recognition of homosexuals whatsoever" then people will turn away from them and their message.

This has been true since I started posting on these forums. I challenge any of them to rationally answer the two questions, and I will continue to challenge until some rational, plausible answers are offered..

You say immorality, I say life and equal rights. I think speaking intolerance in the name of god is immoral, hiding behind biblical quotes then calling people immoral simply for loving someone of the same sex, also immoral. All of these things are a personnal perspective, yours and mine could not be more different, why is yours the only one that is possibly correct? Maybe the muslims in maine are also right, maybe the jews but really makes no difference, we are talking law not religion here, as is always my point and others.....

Elizabethann, so is the sin of greed and setting yourself above god. Both of which you do when you preach yourself as correct and gay and lesbian men and women as sinners. You are not the voice of a God, you are free to express your views, not impose them on others.

Tedlick and expatriat, I find these posts repetitive from the side of you are evil, you are immoral, you are sinners with little else than what they believe god thinks or what god has sent them through the bible or what is "immoral". They should be ashamed but they are enlivened by the backlash, the petitions, the ability to vote down the rights of others. Sad and scary for those uf us who live outside of the light of civil law, perhaps others will see the scary part. If they can keep us out of marriage, why not keep catholics out of office, they are Christian lite according to people "born again". Maybe jews and people of other faiths should keep the bible according to christians, negate their interpretations of the bible, it isn't the christian way. Intolerance granted grows and grows and grows.......

Elizabethann,

YOU were not created to be "a people holy unto GOD". That was the Israelites, and more particularly the Levites, and even more specifically, the Levitical Priests (males) who served in the Temple. You are not an Israelite, nor a descendant of the tribe of Levi nor are you a male. Your group has been co-opting my holy books for 2000 years and now you are co-opting the traditions of my people. You have stolen both, along with the souls of my people, and changed them to your liking, to fit in with your pagan ideas. Don't you think it's time to cut the umbilical cord and let your religion stand on it's own for a change? If your religion were "the truth", it would be able to stand on it's own, not rely on a pre-existing religion to validate it. Tear your bible in half and discard everything that comes before the gospel of Matthew, for you have no use for it in your religion, nor can you read or understand it.

frankforter, can I assume ( I know it's bad to assume ) that you are Jewish? I have been amazed at the lack of feedback from others of different faiths when some christians take such a strong stance against any belief other than the christian one. I have to claim a STRONG lack of information about religion in general......

elizabethann, don't forget vanity.............

jspear, yes, I am.

One thing that really irks me though with the fundamentalists, is that they will readily accuse, demean and condemn anyone they believe to be a homosexual WITHOUT evidence. I asked before on this site if any of them had ever witnessed two men engaging in sexual relations (or two women) in person, inthe flesh, not implied in a movie, and no one responded in the affirmative. By calling people they believe to be homosexuals such things as sodomites, fornicators, heatens, etc., they are bearing false witness because they never SAW anyone they are speaking against actually commit the act they say is a "sin".

Mr. Heath and the Maine Family Policy Council and other 'religion' based organizations DO want to turn back the clock and repeal ALL legal recognition of gays, lesbian, bi-sexual and transgendered persons. Do not forget the far-reaching petition brought forth in the spring of 2008 by Mr. Heath, to repeal the Maine Human Rights Act, Civil Rights teams, domestic partnerships, prohibit civil unions, adoption laws. This was done to strip LGBT citizens of all protections under the law and further deny any forthcoming legislation. It was so far-reaching that it also affected heterosexual individuals and couples. It affected the ideas of tolerance and civil rights of ALL groups covered in the Maine Human Rights Act; religion, gender, disability etc. That is why there were not enough signatures garnered and the efforts were dropped. Will this stripping of recognition stop with this petition to repeal same-gender marriage? I believe it is the first step, the one that causes the most emotional debate, to begin to take away any and all legislative protections. Who will be next? The disabled, women (ERA still has not been ratified by all states), Muslims, the elderly, the list can go on and on; any group or individual who is a minority.

frankforter, thank you for your posts.

Straight Couple for Same-Gender Marriage and Equal Rights

JACK

By the way Mr. Heath granite releases radon,a known causation/contributor of cancer. Cancer kills. Think about your analogy.

JACK

free2bee, now I understand why you moved to Canada with your partner. Those nasty Christians are out to get you and dominate all people groups. Woman, children, the handicapped, elderly, left handed people, dogs,cats etc.. They have such a warped view of the world not wanting two men to marry. They are truly out of touch aren't they. Truth be told the homosexuals want nothing less than for all people to accept their perversion. And who stands in their way? Who do the homosexuals want to completely silence, and make it against the law to speak out against them? You will even go so far as to try and rewrite scripture to support this sin. Homosexuals are trying to redefine marriage. Homosexuals are teaching our children that this perversion is normal. Who's trying to dominate who?

4Him,

What catastrophe awaits? You have yet to enlighten us all, and as you are obviously the spokesman for God, you should know. What horrible things are going to befall Maine and the United States when marriage equality becomes a reality?

Would you feel different by calling these commitments "civil unions" over "marriage"? Or are you against all acknowledgment by the government of committed same sex couples?

These are sincere questions that many people here want to see asked. You are the ones saying it's so horrible. Now, please, if you can, demonstrate HOW they are so horrible.

I mean, you utterly failed at showing the words of Jesus Christ condemning homosexuality, though in the process have shown where He condemns divorce outright (interesting that there's no petition to ban divorce... I really don't get it). But you never did show Christ's words against homosexuality. Paul and John are not Jesus, so those still don't count.

4Him, FYI, those nasty Christians (your words, 'Badger') aren't out to get me, however they are on the slippery slope to oppress and discriminate against family members and friends. Do you really think that Mr. Heath will sit back and forget about the anti-discrimination status given to the LGBT community through the Maine Human Rights Act? Do you really think he wants to allow single heterosexuals to adopt children? Do you really think he wants tolerance of differing religions, abilities, races etc addressed in schools? Just stating the obvious, as he has tried before. You'd be crying persecution if the minorities of this nation tried oppress and discriminate against you for any issues covered by the Maine Human Rights Act.

Additional FYI, please refrain from insinuating that I am not a God-believing, married male heterosexual. It makes you look foolish and desperate. I don't know who "the homosexuals" that want nothing less than for all people to accept their perversion' are, the many gays and lesbians that I know only want the same rights my wife and I have. As far as the rest of your 9:36 post, you are again making yourself look foolish and desperate. Remember Dominionism, usurping the US Constitution with Biblical Law.

JACK B.

Tedlick: He can't use Jesus as an example, he and I have been over this numerous times... Jesus did not write the bible, and loves all people, even if forhimself doesn't like it. Hope you find a way to get it out of him though. I might just eat my skirt if he can show you where Jesus said, "Being homosexual is a perversion" Good luck! :)

also, it's pretty known that there are more Christians (like me) that believe you and your partner should be married if it is what you want, than Christians that don't.

berquis,

Thanks for the kind thoughts towards my partner and I.

I know he can't show where Jesus condemned homosexuality, but he can answer the other two. When cornered about Jesus condemning homosexuality, what he threw out was Jesus condemning divorce, yet there is no move afoot to ban divorce. Something in me finds that to be very, very strange.

You should never have to say thank you to someone who believes ALL people should be treated equally :) You're welcome.

forhim, christians by your own admission see anything other than following the bible as less than normal, homosexuality immoral, loving someone against the teachings of god. If free2bee found a place that supports his relationship legally, why not go there. I doubt he was chased out of town by christians but who knows. I do want acceptance of me and my right to marry so if by that we need to redefine marriage, yes, that is the point here. We are teaching children acceptance of all people, gay, straight, narrow minded, hateful ones who call us perverts and sodomites, fornicators on and on. If you do not see your christian monologue as dominance of this society then you are blind to your own postings. Seems to a rational mind you are attacking anything that disagrees. Where is your free will, your free choice if you only think one thing correct. All the gay and lesbian people of maine have asked for and are entitled to is the free access to marriage. Enlisting the youth, brainwashing the confused, filling the ranks with heterosexuals is your fantasy or fear, not truth.

jspear, Rev. Badger does not show free will because he is obsessed with the perceived 'homosexual lifestyle'. He is convinced that Jesus told him directly to 'save' all people who are not 'born again', that the world will end if this does not happen. He lives in fear of what he believes may happen. He does attack anyone and anything that does not meet his standards, his personal standards. He attacked my wife's beliefs a few weeks ago, convinced that she was me and convinced that I am 1) female and 2) lesbian. I would hope that my wife would continue to love me if I were. My sister moved here to be with her partner and are they are fully recognized by the provincial and federal government.

Straight Couple for Same-Gender Marriage and Equal Rights

JACK and EM B.

jspear, what free2bee fails to mention is that he leads the charge against Christians, perverting his word, saying he's ashamed of people that proclaim God's word in truth. What he fails to mention is that Jesus does indeed speak to us through the bible, and is quite clear on His stance on homosexuality. What he fails to mention is that God wants none to perish, but all to come to the saving knowledge of His Son, Jesus . What he fails to mention is that Jesus in John Chapter 3 says a man must be born again to see the kingdom of God. What He fails to mention is that the bible does say that this world is passing away, and no one knows the day or the hour, and if you should die without Jesus as your Lord and savior you will spend eternity in hell. What he fails to mention is that the bible says perfect love casts off all fear, as a Christian there is nothing to fear. What he fails to mention is that someone involved in homosexual behavior is living a sinful life that will no doubt lead to darkness in regards to your relationship with God. Why does he fail to mention this? Because he is in complete darkness himself and is quite content to give hearty approval to those who practice the same [Romans chpt 1]

If he wants to call me names, so be it. I for one will not fail to mention Gods word in truth. He is clearly posing as a Christian yet contradicting the very word of God, he is the one that should be scared.

forhim, why is anything that differs from your point so tragic, so far in the darkness. Is there no room for discent in your church, your way of looking at the world?? Perhaps you should find a christian government, a christian state where there is no room for difference. I don't think it exists but you should look for it. Gay men and women should put their pillows down tonight after looking at their actions for the day. Did they do good work, did they respect others and themselves, did they work for a great good. If they did, sleep peacefully, if not try to do better tomorrow. I sleep like a log and have no doubt that I am answering positive in all areas, most days. We can always be better, even if you ascribe to a literal bible, you can do better. I would say that free2bee is welcome to his thoughts on the bible and christian beliefs. They are his to hold......peace

jspear, truth be told it is tragic, this world is in darkness. Are you aware that the bible say's the ruler of this world is satan? Are you aware that millions are going to spend eternity in hell because they don't know. That Christianity has been so watered down that even many evangelicals are buying into this pollyanna view of God. Sin and hell aren't even mentioned in most churches anymore. People find it offensive and would rather not hear it. Hell is actually spoken of more than heaven in the bible. We are all sinners in need of a savior, all of us. People need to hear the truth. can I do better, absolutely! We can always be better, yes, but never good enough to stand before a perfect, Holy God. That's precisely why Jesus paid the ultimate price for our sins. It's a free gift from God available to all who accept it. People need to hear, it is tragic when they don't. You will never know what true happiness is till you submit your life to Jesus, all of it.

4him, not my world, when will you understand that. My world isn't ruled by satan, I believe that hell is more spoken about, kind of like a bad novel, only focussing on the exotic to keep the reader interested. I can stand before anyone and any diety and support myself and my life, I do not fear your hell or your assumption that my loving will put me there. God has given us many gifts including free will and we are talking laws here, not religion. Keep your religious views to yourself, they are not mine nor do I suscribe to them.

That's funny 4Him... I don't live in a world of darkness. I live in a world of light, family, and positive energy. I never go through my day worrying about jealous monsters determined to fry me for eternity. I don't think those around me do either.

If we need a savior, and that savior is to be Jesus, then His commandments I shall follow. The words of hangers on and wannabes who you claim to be inspired by God I'll put in the same boat with Joseph Smith and watch them float off into the sunset, for they were mere men and I need them not. Those men spoke of hell more than heaven to scare people into submission to their ideas and will. Jesus did not.

I know no fear, I know no judgment... I am in every sense, happy.

And I treat those around me in ways I wish to be treated, for that is what Jesus would have me do. You cannot deny that.

Face it! All of you zealous, over imposing, & mini God's need to come to terms with the fact that we do NOT live in a Theocracy! This is the United States of America, NOT IRAN!!!! Look at what Theocracy gives its people over in Iran! As much as you oppose same-sex marriage and will fight against it into your dying days.....masking your hate with biblical verses, America will NEVER be the Theocracy that you dream of. If you want a Theocracy, move to Iran. Maybe you can control women, society, gays, media, and impose your lack of human and civil rights in your own little IRAN. You're a disgrace to the founding fathers who set up a DEMOCRACY....I repeat....DEMOCRACY.....(you know the thing you wish was a Theocracy so you could impose your religious beliefs through religious law?)! If your not proud to be an American, leave. Here in America EVERYONE is welcome and all men are created equal! You can take that one to the bank!

The comments are getting somewhat redundant and it's pretty clear people on either side of this campaign aren't going to change their mind. I just got a kick out of of Elizabethann's statement on 6/28: "Repeated separate thumbs down will cause comment to be hidden Cher...we are to be the people God created us to be. A holy people. We all have temptations we need to over come. Homesexuality is one of them."

I laughed a little when I saw this, for two reasons: 1) There is no temptation to be gay. With hateful people like Mike Heath in the world who celebrate the deaths of gay and lesbian people (see his quote about Katrina), gay bashings, discrimination, etc. the temptation is just in the opposite direction. I am gay myself and I KNOW I was born this way, that it's natural and healthy - more so than any "Christian" could possibly "know" that Jesus is the one true God, and 2) If homosexuality was a common temptation that everyone had, you can be sure there would be a lot more of it in the world than the generally accepted 10%. I would dare say every human being has lied, cheated, and committed acts of violence (verbal, emotional or otherwise) against another human being in their lifetime, probably more than once, but the majority of people have probably not had a homosexual experience. We all have temptations to cheat or lie or steal or say something mean to someone we don't like, but homosexuality is not a temptation. If it were, us gay people would be getting a lot more action, I can tell you that, haha.

sunny, well put, it isn't a lifestyle choice for us, I would have chosen an easier course for sure but I too am happy with who I am and who I love and it is what I have always felt.

There was a petitioner gathering signatures for the November referendum at the Kiwanis breakfast in Brewer the other morning. People were lined up waiting to sign it. :o)

I am a female and not once in my life was I ever "tempted" to have sex with another female.... because I'm heterosexual. When people write things like "We all have temptations we need to over come. Homesexuality is one of them." I have to wonder if they're living in the closet.

Yes, MaineSurvivor2, I watched a man cause his wife to cry as he forced her to sign the petition. Whole thing was sick. In the end, it's all a wast of taxpayer dollars: cuz it will happen, and at the Federal level where Heath and his fundie army can't do a damned thing about it.

I don't fear a people's veto... The supreme court is the only body outside of Congress who has ever made a difference in civil rights cases. This one will be no different. When I look at how long blacks fought for equal protections and guarantees, I can be patient. And the reason I'm so confident: nobody can demonstrate how homosexual marriage or homosexuals themselves for that matter are bad for America. Not one person. It may go against their world view, but there is no real harm.

MaineExpat, if they're not living in the closet, they're definitely living in the past.

"Yes, MaineSurvivor2, I watched a man cause his wife to cry as he forced her to sign the petition."

WHAT?!?! FORCED?!?!? I thought that was against the law. You did not come to this womans aid?

Can't say it was physical force, but she obviously didn't want to sign it.

I also admit that the folks taking the petition were on her side and stated as much Guy was just an old crabby fart.

Has anyone heard how many signatures have been collected so far?

I feel so badly for the woman crying, not just that he was "forcing" her to sign, but what he must treat her like behind closed doors. I am sure he's abusive in every facet of their lives aren't you?

tdlick and Confederate_Yankee, you're both LIARS! I worked at that event and was 20 feet from the petitioner. Your fabrication shows how desperate you are to win your cause. See you in November.

Re-read my post before calling me a liar, Mainesurvivor2, because the post you made makes you look to be the one with the problem getting it straight.

Dude, I was not at the event Confed_Yank speaks of.

Cool the jets.

And sure, take November. It will come at the federal level, and that'll end it all.

OH, and Mainesurvivor2... since you're one of the neigh-sayers:

What exactly bad is going to happen when gays do get marriage equality? Fire? Brimstone? Flood? Meteor? Comet?

Exactly what bad things are going to happen?

we'll see eye to eye there for sure mainesurvivor2. I'll second that motion.