65,000? Have you got come proof of that number? And, yes, lifting the ban is bad for the military.

Start with the military and move quickly to have all people stand on equal grounds in all areas in the federal government. This is a ridiculous move to avoid fanatics and extremists unwilling to see that gay and lesbian and women can and do serve with honor now and have since the beginning of this nation. There is no proof, that is fact. Lift the ban.

The military is for men only, who are straight. Military life is tough enough without introducing this issue.

Adm. Mullen is just given the joint chiefs of staff something to do while waiting for our arm chair President, Politicians and its citizens to make up there minds on how they are going to screw up this war just like Nam. As he said he is waiting for orders from the President. For those that really know how the Miltary works. They are under under rules that govern what the Armed Services can or should say to the Public.

I would also have to wonder about the numbers used. Mostly though I would challenge the reason mentioned in the article of why gays leave the service.

Lift the Ban and issue all gay and lesbian soldiers Pink uniforms. Let them stand out and be noticed if that is what they want.

As a female, I would want to know if I were bunking with someone who might find me sexually attractive, just like if I were bunking with a man. I would want to know so if might need to protect myself from unwanted advances.

I'm a Army Veteran & while serving , I didn't know of any gays, if their were some , they were deep in the closet & must have been great actors, If any were visible, they would have been discharged fast, which would have been good for their safety. I would not want any gays in my outfit period.I don't think they should be allowed in Service.

http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=64564

Do you American Vets have input on this article?

or this:

http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=64894

or this:

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_GAYS_MILITARY_HAZING?SITE=DCSAS&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2009-09-22-14-12-16

Saltoria you may want to read them also.

Not saying by any stretch that this happens in every branch or to every serviceman/woman. but it does happen.

Jack B.

Saltoria - you do realize just how deeply offensive that is, don't you? Not just to lesbians but to straight men as well. If you are surrounded by people that you have to protect yourself from perhaps you need to find a better class of associates.

I'm sure this will come as a shock but, on the off chance that anyone made a pass, just say no thank you. Unless the other person is a jerk that typically ends the conversation, gay or straight.

Lift the ban, and reinstate the draft.

Our millitary is stretched to thin, if these are wars we must fight, then let the sacrifice be felt by all regardless of occupation, income, gender or sexuality.

SILENCE on the issue HAZING in the military. Huh

Jack B.

...blueskies, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not...

And ladyslipper "Lift the Ban and issue all gay and lesbian soldiers Pink uniforms. Let them stand out and be noticed if that is what they want."...perhaps they just want to serve?

I know what you meant, Saltoria. Actual logic won't get in the way of this one, I'm afraid.

10:27AM Blueskiesaboveme....WoW, I`m still grabbing my chest. Other then the gay issue in the military, this statement is not consistant with another tread you just wrote on about your anti-war stance. Are you bi-polar???

If Gays want to serve more bodies the better!

This issue is being driven by President Obama and friends. You know soldiers foremost of all are suppose to follow orders

If you support our troops at all (with the reality of what our troops ln sacrafice everyday) you would not support stressing out the troops anymore then the thought they carrry everyday. Dying for your freedom to open your mouth. Please be respectful to those that have and those that will die for you.

How many soldiers do you know other then gay ones your obviously hang with?

Still SILENCE on the issue HAZING in the military. Huh

Re posting of links from Stars and Stripes at 9:08AM

Jack B.

Im sorry ElectraGlide, my other post was probably in bad timing and bad tastes on that other thread.

It just irritates me that people like Beelzebubba thinks that the people that were out protesting during the run up to the war in Iraq were only out protesting because they didnt like Bush, and now that Obama has been elected, all the protesters have somehow been pacified.

I do support the troops, I'd like to bring them home.

But if these are wars we must fight, then let the sacrifice be felt by all.

How many gay soldiers have done anything to jeopardize the US security or personnel safety of us soldiers? Hear the crickets?

And except in a few minds of some homophobic generals in US military, there are no, none, zero studies that link military readiness or security breaches by gay soldiers.

Remember, Timothy McVeigh was Catholic and straight.

Actually the US military is more 'at risk' from soldiers suffering from mental health issues, depression, and suicide, not to mention their families when they get home.

TolBig80: They do not care if what they say is "deeply offensive" to others....just read some of the comments here for proof of that.

fredrogers: Good comments. But for some reason they are not as outraged over an evil Timothy McVeigh who took all those innocent lives. They would rather focus on taking away rights from people who just want to serve their country. Unreal....

blueskiesaboveme....thank you alot. and I do respect the right to demonstations with all my might. But I also respect that a team of team players is much more effective then a team of non-team players. It is time for the World Team of team players

One of my fondiest dreams is that America and the rest of the freedom loving countries will rise up and do whatever has to be done to rid the world of all the tyrants once and for all. The only way to world peace in my dreams is to earn it.

We are in complete agreement on the draft, and now is the time for the draft for many reasons, one of which is to show the world once again that we are there from them, and to see if they are there for us. The other reason is to teach our young kids what it is to be a team player. There is no one set up (to teach large numbers) better to do that in this country then our Military Services.

You know one of the things that I learned when dealing with violent behavior in the ED Dept., was mere physical presence with numbers of personel, often times put things in prospective for the person that was being violent. That norm of human behavior hasn`t changed much in history and probably won`t change much in the future.

ladyslipper...your 7:35 comment was really ignorant...but speaks to your attitude toward gay people, who aren't looking to stand out in the military...they just want to serve.

It seems odd that the larger enemy so many of our military members face is their own phobia about homosexuals.

ladyslipper, I think you're off on this one...not pink uniforms. Blue uniforms with lots and lots of rainbows on them. That will help them celebrate diversity on the battlefield.

Why not? After all, they smack you in the face with their rainbows during their "pride" parades...

Ummm, why do you go to Pride parades? And get within "smacking" distance? Closet feeling a little snug, dd?

Did I say I went to one, seacoast? Making assumptions isn't a hallmark of a strong intellect.

No - the "gay pride" propaganda comes to me unsolicited where I work in the form of unwanted, in-your-face advertisements and celebratory photos.

Don't need a closet - I'm comfortable in my own skin...unlike those like yourself who have the insatiable need to remedy their insecurity by flaunting their perverse life-choices for all to see.

"Lift the Ban and issue all gay and lesbian soldiers Pink uniforms." - You know, just put a yellow Star of David on the sleeves of Jewish soldiers and some black triangles on the lesbians uniforms and call it good, right ladyslipper? Yeah, brilliant idea Adolf Jr.

Saltoria - "As a female, I would want to know if I were bunking with someone who might find me sexually attractive...I might need to protect myself from unwanted advances." - This really has nothing to do with gays in military except a portrayal of how paranoid people get when they're ignorant. If a soldier is willing to die for America, why are so many afraid of sleeping in the same room with a gay man or woman? Sounds like we've got a bunch of sissy straight boys and girls in our forces, and the gays are the ones with real balls.

Beaverfood - "The military is for men only, who are straight." Hmmm. Nope. Women make up 20% of the military buddy.

dirigodad - "the insatiable need to remedy their insecurity by flaunting their perverse life-choices for all to see." - Are you talking about straight folk? Because if you haven't noticed, 99% of what's on t.v., magazines, movies, etc. is heterosexual garbage. Perhaps you're the ones with insecurities?

ms_sherlock, how many "straight pride" parades have you seen? How many straight "diversity" groups are you aware of? How many national "heading back into the closet" days have you heard advertised?

The only ones pounding their chests and beating the drums as they almost literally scream for attention are those who are the most insecure (either that, or the most juvenile - throwing tantrums just to get attention)...and I think you're being just a little disingenuous if you can't admit that it's the homosexual zealots who create all the noise.

I'm just sayin'...

Continued SILENCE on the issue HAZING in the military.

Re: posted links from Stars and Stripes at 9:08AM 10/05

Jack B.

seacoast...I was being flip, a person that did not realize that is the ignorant one.

.

ms_sherlock, Jewish American soldiers are not screaming for special rights and recognition. The military is correct in their "don't ask don't tell" approach.Lifting the ban will only open a can of worms .Gay Discrimination lawsuits will flourish, Gays will demand benefits for their partners and any (god forbid) children that they will adopt, etc,etc.

.

dirigodad your idea is much better than mine...

.

seacoast and ms_sherlock I am a straight female who served 5 years in the USAF during Vietnam. Everyone knew there were some gays and lesbians among us. It was not an issue. They were excellent military personnel for the most part and accepted and liked....but then again they did not have the "attitude " of the gays of today......The decision to serve one's country should be a selfiess decision for the protection of the country....it should not be a ME ME ME attitude. No one is stopping gays from serving their country if that is what they truly want to do.

.

Saltoria, In basic training, Myself and two other girls "bunked" with 1 Lesbian ( a real "butch type") in our room . She was very funny and helpful. Basic training is tough, and a couple of the girls may not have made it through without her .....The military takes "sexual harrassment " very seriously .

dd...it is you who now assumes. We could be co-workers and/or friends for years and you'd never know I was gay. It is nothing I've ever "flaunted". For those who are more obvious, the world would better itself by showing kindness rather than being divisive.

ladyslipper...I know you were being flip. But for some reason, Nazi triangles came to mind when I read your post.

dirigodad: define this "flaunting." In your workplace, what exactly are these "in-your-face advertisements and celebratory photos"?

For those who are constantly worried that gay people may be sleeping in the same place or using the same showers, I have a couple of comments:

1. We showered with you in high school gym class and after sports practices/games, and you seem to have survived. Which leads me to point #2:

2. Get over yourself, you're really not that attractive. Seriously

Why would a gay soldier want to put himself in that position? It's asking for trouble, especially when you got a bunch of sex starved drunken servicemen, i.e. Iraq. The stories coming out of there are horrendous, and there would be a lot more casualties from "friendly fire" I'm sure. I'm certainly not condoning picking on the gays, so calm down, I'm just saying that there would not be two sides to the story when all was said and done, I'm sure one side would be quieted permanently.

The same sorts of arguments used to keep gays and lesbians out of the armed services were raised when the military was racially integrated, and again when women were allowed to serve. Appropriate handling of discipline issues took care of the problems then and will do so now.

Oh yeah, I forgot, MOTHING gets swept under the carpet in the military, my bad.

Sorry, my statement should have read, NOTHING gets swept under the carpet in the military.

The reasons being given for excluding gays and lesbians from serving in the military seem to have to do with the lack of discipline among our straight service members. How is this the fault of gays and lesbians again?

haakon: Excellent points. It is just a smokescreen to "mask" discrimination; it is about the comfort level of the opposition, little more.

Ladyslipper - "Lifting the ban will only open a can of worms .Gay Discrimination lawsuits will flourish, Gays will demand benefits for their partners and any (god forbid) children that they will adopt, etc,etc." --- Protecting oneself from discrimination and allowing benefits to adopted children is "opening a can of worms" ??? I honestly didn't know people were that heartless. Huh.

Ladyslipper - "The decision to serve one's country should be a selfiess decision for the protection of the country....it should not be a ME ME ME attitude." --- Maybe you don't know this, but the majority of gays don't want to flaunt their sexuality anymore than you do. Most just want to be able to say, "yeah I'm gay, I have a partner and I miss them" without losing their job. They want to enjoy all the freedoms and rights that they're trying to protect. In my opinion, the only selfish aspect about this whole discussion involves people like you denying an "out" gay to serve.

Dirigodad - I think you're being a tad extreme when you say that gays "pound their chest" when it's clear that the ones thumping their bibles are screaming the loudest in this state. These people are using any tactic they can to keep gays quiet, closeted and second class. Sorry, it's not gonna happen. America will never go back to that time, so we might as well learn to live with one another and respect each other.

Can you help me remember the last time we had a "Bible-Thumper" parade in this state?

Didn't think so.

Just sayin'...

dd...on the other hand, can you remember the last time a gay person knocked on your door trying to convert you to homosexuality?

To answer your question...no, I can't recall any Bible-Thumper parades in Maine. KKK marches down south are the closest that come to mind.

dirigodad: You seem to have missed (read: ignored) my question, so I'll ask again: Define this "flaunting." In your workplace, what exactly are these "in-your-face advertisements and celebratory photos"?

As far as your "Bible-Thumper" parades, I don't know of any currently, but you most certainly have the right to organize one, don't you? Don't blame gay people because you don't have your own parade. We are happy to have you join us in ours, though. We welcome all supportive people, regardless of sexual orientation.

Continued SILENCE on the issue HAZING in the military.

Re: posted links from Stars and Stripes at 9:08AM 10/05

http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=64564

Do you American Vets have input on this article?

or this:

http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=64894

or this:

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_GAYS_MILITARY_HAZING?SITE=DCSAS&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2009-09-22-14-12-16

Jack B.

7:54 AM, joesalters, SGT Leonard Matlovitch, was a decorated war veteran and he was given a dishonorable discharge.

12:13 AM, dirigodad, the last gay pride parade was in June. It happens every June. 1 day out of 365.

Another day and continued silence, so I'll ask again:

dirigodad: Define this "flaunting." In your workplace, what exactly are these "in-your-face advertisements and celebratory photos"?