Snowe backs health care bill
poll

Snowe backs health care bill


Obama: Senate committee’s vote ‘a critical milestone’
By David Espo
The Associated Press
AP PHOTO BY CHARLES DHARAPAK
Senate Finance Committee Chairman Sen. Max Baucus (left), D-Mont., shakes hands with committee member Sen. Olympia Snowe, R-Maine, as Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah,looks on Tuesday on Capitol Hill in Washington after a committee vote on the health care reform bill.
WASHINGTON — Historic legislation to expand U.S. health care and control costs won its first Republican supporter Tuesday and cleared a key Senate hurdle, a double-barreled triumph that propelled President Barack Obama’s signature issue toward votes this fall in both houses of Congress.

“When history calls, history calls,” said Maine Republican Olympia Snowe, whose declaration of support ended weeks of suspense and provided the only drama of a 14-9 vote in the Senate Finance Committee. With her decision, the 62-year-old lawmaker bucked her own leadership on the most high-profile issue of the year in Congress, and gave the drive to remake health care at least a hint of the bipartisanship that Obama seeks. At the White House, Obama called the events “a critical milestone” toward remaking the nation’s health care system. He praised Snowe as well as Sen. Max Baucus, D-Mont., chairman of the committee, and declared, “We are going to get this done.”

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There were fresh challenges. Within minutes of the vote, labor unions and large business organizations demanded changes in the bill, which was an attempt at a middle-of-the-road measure fashioned by the committee under Baucus’ leadership.

Still, nearly nine months after the president pledged in his inaugural address to tackle health care, legislation to expand coverage to millions who lack it has now advanced further than President Clinton’s ill-fated effort more than a decade ago — or any other attempt in more than a generation.

The next move in the Senate is up to Majority Leader Harry Reid, whose office said the full Senate would begin debate on the issue the week of Oct. 26. Nominally, Reid must first blend the bill that cleared during the day with a version that passed earlier in the Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee. But in reality, the majority leader — with the participation of the White House — has a virtual free hand in fashioning a measure to wind up gaining the 60 votes needed to overcome a threatened Republican filibuster.

“The bottom line here is we need a final bill, a merged bill, that gets 60 votes,” Baucus said. “Our goal is to pass health care reform, not just talk about it.”

Reid’s most politically sensitive decision revolves around proposals for the federal government to sell insurance in competition with private industry. The Senate bill approved in committee during the day omits the provision, while the one passed earlier includes it and many House Democrats support it as well. In general, bills moving toward floor votes in both houses would require most Americans to purchase insurance, provide federal subsidies to help those of lower incomes afford coverage and give small businesses help in defraying the cost of coverage for their workers.

The measures would bar insurance companies from denying coverage on the basis of pre-existing medical conditions, and for the first time limit their ability to charge higher premiums on the basis of age or family size. Expanded coverage would be paid for by cutting hundreds of billions of dollars from future Medicare pay-ments to health care providers. Each house also envisions higher taxes — an income tax surcharge on million-dollar wage-earners in the case of the House, and a new excise levy on insurance companies selling high-cost policies in the case of the Senate Finance Committee bill.

Apart from Snowe, Republicans on the committee cited higher taxes, a greater federal role in the insurance industry and other concerns as they lined up to oppose the bill.

Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, said the legislation would place the nation on a “slippery slope to more and more government control of health care.” Sen. Mike Crapo, R-Idaho, elicited testimony earlier from the head of the Congressional Budget Committee that a substantial portion of the bill’s tax increases would fall on groups Obama has vowed would be protected: individuals making $200,000 or less and couples below $250,000.

Snowe, too, said there were problems with the bill, but on balance, the risks of doing nothing were too great.

“We should also contemplate the decades of inaction that have brought us to this crossroads,” she said. “The status quo approach has produced one glaring common denominator, that is that we have a problem that is growing worse, not better.”

The vote made the Finance Committee the last of five in Congress to complete its work on health care. It also marked a personal triumph for Baucus, who weathered criticism from fellow Democrats after his attempt at bipartisanship cratered earlier this fall after months of exhaustive effort. In the end, disgruntled liberals on the panel, including Jay Rockefeller of West Virginia and Ron Wyden of Oregon, went along in hopes the bill eventually would be reshaped more to their liking.

Across the Capitol, Speaker Nancy Pelosi and her lieutenants have been at work for weeks trying to blend legislation approved by three House committees. The eventual result is certain to include a government option, but the details of the plan have split the rank-and-file and leaders have spent days struggling with the issue.

One group favors allowing the government to negotiate with doctors, hospitals and other health care providers for fees to be paid to treat patients who have federal insurance policies, an approach that involves higher costs for the government. The other, lower-cost approach envisions a fixed payment schedule linked to Medicare. Officials say that alternative was quietly sweetened in recent days for the benefit of hospitals, medical device makers and others to put them on an even plane with doctors. Apart from the details of the emerging bills, there were signs that the political struggle was intensifying.

Several officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, said business groups were discussing plans to step up their opposition to legislation. The health insurance industry made clear its own unhappiness Monday when it released a study by the prominent auditing firm PricewaterhouseCoopers saying the Finance Committee bill would raise premiums significantly for millions who already have insurance.

The report drew intense criticism from the White House, Democrats in Congress and other advocates of the legislation. By Monday night, the auditing firm appeared to backpedal, issuing a statement acknowledging its report was based only on an analysis of four provisions in the proposed legislation. In another sign of its more aggressive stance against Baucus’ bill, the health insurance industry began airing TV ads in six states on Sunday criticizing the Finance Committee bill for the more than $100 billion in cuts it would make in Medicare Advantage, under which private insurance companies provide Medicare benefits.

“Is it right to ask more than 10 million seniors on Medicare Advantage for more than their fair share?” the announcer says. Later, she adds, “Call your senators. Tell them we need health care reform that protects seniors.”

America’s Health Insurance Plans, the industry’s trade group, is running the ads in Louisiana, Colorado, Missouri, New Mexico and Pennsylvania, and in Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid’s home state of Nevada. The group declined to reveal how much the ad campaign cost. Associated Press writers Ricardo Alonso-Zaldivar and Erica Werner contributed to this report.

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Comments
51 comments on this item

Well you can count on the fact that she's already decided NOT to run again. Probably bought a nice big mansion in Florida too! Just one more day the woman makes me hurl. She must enjoy dressing up for Halloween. Every day in Washington she dresses up as a Republican. When underneath that costume is a democrat clear to the bone!

Just another way to get her picture in the paper

Put your trust in your insurance company's that's fine, give me a choice for a goverment run program that I can pay into! We needed our Blue Cross last year, let down, told who we could see, where we had to go, and thousands of dollars out of our pockets on top of our 800.00 a month premium payments, insurance is great just don't get really sick, if you like you house!!!

And as far as them putting up the rates, ours go up every year mostly in the in the 11 % range so what's new.. As we ship our jobs to China, the company's that once paid for your insurance will be some thing in the history books, who will you turn to then! The Big Bad Goverment OOOO Know!!

Snowe sucks

Stupid , stupid , stupid ,stupid ! I feel so bad for the young people of this country. Our government needs to smarten up, we have no business in the insurance field and need to get on with the business of running the country. Many politicians , including Obama and Snowe , received generous campaign donations from many medical and insurance related PAC's. How do we expect them to come up with something good for this country. Vote em out !

Since it was reported that Senator Snowe voted this way "with some reservation", we need thousands of upset Mainers to call her various offices and let her know this is a bad idea.

It's not too late, and We The People do have a say in what she is doing on behalf of our state. We need health care reform, but this path will only bury our USA in debt and an even worse system... but we still have time to help Snowe change-her-mind!

Please call Senator Snowe's offices today:

Washington, DC 20510

Phone: (202) 224-5344

Toll Free: (800) 432-1599

Auburn State Office:

Main: (207) 786-2451

Augusta State Office:

Main: (207) 622-8292

Bangor State Office:

Main: (207) 945-0432

Biddeford State Office:

Main: (207) 282-4144

Portland State Office:

Main: (207) 874-0883

Presque Isle State Office:

Main: (207) 764-5124

we should make a list of grievances we can all agree upon. eat the rich, feed the poor. something. we're too good for what's being done to us.

Olympia, you truly have been in Washington for too long.,,it's time to come home. It's not your fault, we (the voters) have been voting you back into office time and time again. We will not fail you next time...we will bring you home.

Get ready for higher taxes and higher insurance cost! Sen Snowe proved today she could careless about what is right for Maine!

I think Olympia is doing what she thinks is right, the destruction of conservatism in the United States. After the Republican party is marginalized and largely swallowed whole by the socialist/facist dominated left wing, there will simply be lone conservatives without a party, now that will be interesting.

What's wrong with this Health Plan is it doesn't go far enough. It is comparable to stepping out of your door in the winterinto your driveway, after a 12 inch snow storm and taking your shovel and shoveling four or five shovels full of snow and saying "Ah, that looks great, the wife will have no problems getting out of the drive, now I'll go back and brew a fresh pot". Duh? Health plan? Duh?

WWW.CONSTITUTIONPARTY.COM

Olympia Snowe is an American Hero.

Just about sick and tired of all of this. Nice one Olympia, you took the middle ground and didn't accomplish anything. Except probably lining your own pockets a little more and certainly fueling your ego. America is not served by moderates of any kind. Passion and self sacrifice is what made this country what it is...where are those people?

The ignorant continue to work for the insurance companies and they dont' even know it. My gosh! If you add up our premiums, the matching premiums our employers pay, the annual deductible and our co-pays, our annual healtcare expenses already top $15,000 for 2 people. Everybody already has agreed that regardless of the plans currently under consideration insurance companies are going to continue increasing premiums. They also admit that taxes are going to continue going up to cover the uninsured. Why do the ignorant continue to harp about these issues when this scenario is going to happen regardless of whether we continue with current policy or embrace one of the plans under consideration. I want a Single Payer system such as the one the French have. It works! Yes taxes go up but if we and our employers are not paying premiums the taxes could go up substantially and it would still be a bargain. This has the added "pro business" effect of taking the healthcare burden off of the backs of small and large business alike.

Roadking, Pay attention! This piece of legislation is a complete cave in to the insurance industry. It requires everyone to buy insurance. Read it please. There is no govt. option. Dems have long been in the closet with big business. That's why the term "rich republican" has always seemed so misrepresented.

Sick.. The Gov't couldn't even get the cash for clunkers right, yet they think they are going to fix health care?

Yet another vote by Snowe to keep the people of Maine relying on the Feds for everything and keeping us a poverty state.

Three Cheers for Senator Snowe...!!!

She is the only GOP Senator with GUTS...

ALL THE REST ARE TAKING THE INSURANCE MONEY AND SELLING US OUT....

Those opposed should lose their insurance which the GREEDY insurance companies

CAN DO ANYTIME NOW at the drop of a hat... SMARTEN UP PEOPLE...........

PUBLIC OPTION WILL REDUCE ALL COSTS BECAUSE IT MAKES THE INSURANCE COMPANIES

COMPETE WITH A GOVERNMENT PLAN THAT IS PROFIT FREE........... USE YOUR BRAINS........

I usually do not agree with Senator Snowe. I very much dislike moderates and believe that the moderate position is just a sell out...a way not to make the tough decisions. There is nothing more repugnant than a politician going along to get along. That garbage has been happening for 30-40 years, and look where it has taken us. In this particular case, however, Senator Snowe may be on the money. She has moved the process forward and put the liberals in a box. The liberals, and the President, must now decide whether or not they want bipartisan health care reform or a liberal go for broke bill which will for sure cost them the next few elections. Snowe says she will not vote for a future version of this bill if it contains a public option; does not lower the deficit; or in any other way increases costs. Hopefully she will also demand considerations for the State of Maine behind closed doors. This self help for the home State is done all the time, and it is about time Maine found an issue and had a Senator in the unique position to take care of Maine. Snowe now controls the health care agenda and by taking advantage of this ingenious position, she can really make history for Maine and the nation. She is quoted as saying " when history calls history calls." Well, Olympia, the ball is in your court.

Snowe should not worry about Health Ins, she worked for the government so she get all every thing,,,, Dental, EYES EARS,,,, etc.

She does not care about Mainer nor any other person in the USA as long as they do not take her Ins away from her and give her the raises

and the people on SS get nothing for 3 years, what a lump on a log. Give me it all and let the middle class pay for it all thru taxes that is what she wants

So her and Obama will give each other a kiss and on goes the country. THE USA IS GOING DOWN THE DRAIN,, WE ARE ALL DOOMED

Ms. Snowe is a true Maine hero . In years to come she will be held in as high a regard as Margaret Chase Smith, another true leader in the history of this country. She should actually be the first Repub. woman presidential candidate . Thanks Olympia. Snowe

now... Please dont cave in to hysteria from the donothings .

Ms. Snowe is a true Maine hero . In years to come she will be held in as high a regard as Margaret Chase Smith, another true leader in the history of this country. She should actually be the first Repub. woman presidential candidate . Thanks Olympia. Snowe

now... Please dont cave in to hysteria from the donothings .

She is A hero all right, of what? More taxes? We pay enought taxes and she wants us to pay more, well I guess she thinks that Mainer make enough money do pay more taxes, Why do the Mainer take this? Smith was the same way lump on a log

On 10/14/09 at 9:18 AM, mallett wrote: " Snowe is a true Maine hero . In years to come she will be held in as high a regard as Margaret Chase Smith, another true leader in the history of this country."

To compare Snowe to Margaret Chase Smith is a slap in the face to Smith!!!

Both of our current Senators should be voted out in the next elections.

How unexpected! The big governmen RINO votes to advance Big Government. If the moribund Republican Party in Maine could rustle up so much as a toaster to run against this "Republican", I'd vote for it. Every day, there's more evidence that Mainers have morphed from "rock-ribbed" to "whiny wards of the state."

While I am in favor of burning down the insurance companies and creating parks for a population covered by a single-payer system on the ground where they once stood, this bill is a small step in the right direction. I hope we get a public option when all is said and done. What have the Republicans ever done to address the real problem: the unbridled greed of the insurance companies? The health of the public is a public matter. At least Snowe recognizes this.

taxes and more taxes didn't our fore-fathers &mother fight to stop all of this .we need to take back our country.we all need healthcare but not at this price

Well, Well where are we at according to me. Lets see the senate has a bill with no public option and the house is pushing for a public option. Do we chose the devil we know or the devil we don`t. They (special interest and policticians) are doing a masterful job of this production of we care but. Well fellow citizens they have set it up so now we and they have a little time to hear from each other and my prediction is that the masses are going to scream we will take the devil we know. Of course folks you and I couldn`t have come up with a worse plan (devil we don`t know) for ourselves no matter how hard we tried. That was the plan so they could have the production of but. What is the but, well here it comes citizens.

This is a Presidential Address; The people of America I am here to tell you that because of all the conflict and all the manure that has been spread and the fact that most public input of the people would rather have the devil we know, I have no choice but to tell you that at this time we have been unable to come to a consenses on a Healthcare Bill. I President Obama will not stop trying to get the people a healthcare plan and after mid-term elections we can possible try again if the climate is right. Does the Bill and Hillary era ring a bell?

So citizens now we get to see if they are going to come up with Tort reform, regulations to control the insurance corp. and pharmo. corp. etc.. Not sure about how that is going to shake out, but in the mean time we have countries threatening us with possible atomic weapons, missles, the middle east in a complete uproar and the whole country holding its breath on what the President is going or not going to do. People are in an uproar on the taxes we are paying. We don`t know what to do about illegal immagration. Well folks here it comes again. It is now Nov 2211.

This is a Presidential re-election promise if you vote for me for another term I promise you that if you re-elect me, I will get you the healthcare plan that you need.

One can only imagine what it is like to be a Senator from a little ole state that alot of American Citizens wonder if we even have electricity above Augusta, being on the National News every night looking all so powerful. Sen Snowe is so full of herself how can we expect the poor women to care about what we care about. The woman can do no wrong in the minds of the uninformed.

I saw a couple of people above mention A Single Payer Public Option, I know what that is I wonder how many other people do. OMG that was the type of Public Option that President Obama ran on, it is the Public Option that Sen Snowe is on record as the best for us. One form of Single Payer is HR676 that special interest have so freakin buried. You owe it yourself, your kids, your grandchildren and the kids to look this up.

Olympia Snowe and Susan Collins really care about people. It's sad to see the republicans who seem to think that we were all created equal and the the ones that don't perform are just faking it. HELLO...not everone is born with with same mental and physical abilities...some do much better than others...so...the republican way seems to be just step over these misfits and "let's go out and make more money". Sad that they are the ones that "don't get it" . Their hearts are made of gold...not love and compassion. Again, it's good to know the poor people of Maine have friends in high places. Thanks again to our two great senators and of course our governer...who keeps fighting the rich and powerful who want to step on the poor and laugh while they fill their pockets with money....

But Sen. Susan Collins, R-Maine, told The Associated Press that the bill approved Tuesday by the Finance Committee needs substantial improvements to make coverage more affordable, contain costs, and protect Medicare. Nevertheless, she joined her Maine GOP colleague Sen. Olympia Snowe in endorsing the goal of far-reaching changes.

Yeah, right these two will vote with the BIG government spenders everytime thanks for NOTHING you boneheads!!!!

Don't vote for yellow Snowe.

I hope for a public option. That said.....I admire Senators Snowe and Collins of Maine who have been working with dedication and thoroughness for healthcare reform. They have reached across the aisle to try and come to some kind of agreement....they are still doing that! Good for them! And they do the state of Maine proud!!

Way to go Senator, still a REAL republican!! Since when has republican=conservative robot? NEVER in Maine. Sure there are a few of you wingnuts out there in Maine, but the good news is your not the one's electing the Senator, WE are! Take your conservative vote away all you want, our coalition will still mop the floor with ya no matter who runs! Frankly I hope the Senator is running for President next time around, she'd have a good shot at winning without the conservative vote. Conservatives are so vastly in the minority that they don't get republicans elected anywhere. Moderates, independents, and democrats do. Go ask the Reagan and both Bush campaigns who got them elected, and then go ask John McCain's.

I feel bad for the young people of this country, too. When the wingnuts are being misled to the point of spreading lies about healthcare reform. Oh, no lies?? How about "death panels" and other asinine hogwash? My health insurance was cancelled last month. $1,000 a month for wife and I, and it was cancelled when we were on vacation because the company tried to auto-draft from our account a week early. In fact, over the past 2 years, they've never drafted on the same day, and sometimes only 20 days apart. No notice, no contact, I found out it was cancelled during a doctor's office visit. So they made over $50,000 from me with no claims filed. Always looking for an excuse to cancel - git while the gittin's good.

The good thing is I found the alternative for $2000 a year instead of $1000 a month. YOU can't get it. We're "out of the Country" for over six months a year, so we qualify for ex-patriate healthcare. The risk pool iis much stronger than, say, United or Cigna, where you're pooled with people in S. Florida. On top of that, the REST of the world doesn't charge the ridiculous prices for healthcare found in the U.S. The policy assumes that if you're in Chile and need hospitalization, that's where you go. And you do have the option (and they'll pay the airfare) to fly back to the U.S. for healthcare.

It's all a game of dodge ball, and all I'm doing is dodging the thieves that stand between me and my doctor with their hand, upturned and perpetually extended, demanding MORE. But for some reason, the wingnuts don't see this, and seem to fervently believe that the capitalisitc approach - simply handing your money over to the middleman who has the power to deny healthcare to you - is somehow "better."

Bangorean...have to with you again. I almost took off on a couple of comments here but decided why waste energy on the impossible. It am always amased at ultra libs somehow think the are relating to the independants. Oh well, I said I would let it go for this time except you cannot lie to someone if they are informed and you don`t have a clue if you are so polorized that you are paralized.

By the way - love the ads from Newsmax. com. One of their writers recently outlined what he felt was a good military coup plan to overthrow the current administration. The article was pulled almost immediately due to its over-the-top treasonous content. Similar to the big-money (Vanderbilt, Rockefeller, Ford, etc.) plan to wrest power from FDR shortly after his election through a military takeover. These people were enamored with the workings of facism, since it is fundamentally a right-wing premise. Power in the hands of the rich and powerful. Google "General Smedley" (I believe) and you'll discover a true American who foiled the big money right wing plot to take over the reins of American Government entirely for self-benefit. Very interesting stuff. History repeats itself.

Sorry. GENERAL SMEDLEY BUTLER. Google it. REAL interesting reading, with a short bio on Wiki. His book "War is a Racket" is extremely interesting.

I wonder how many people who feel Snow has betrayed them by supporting a very weak version of health care reform depend on the government for their health care? Do they support closing the VA hospitals and ending medicare and medicaid? What about ending all government programs? After all any government support is a form of socialism as defined by the dittoheads and the leaders.

As usual, the comments today can best be described by that great politician, Spiro. T. Agnew: "In the United States today, we have more than our share of the nattering nabobs of negativism."

Think!

Bangorean,

Love it. Love mention of the 1934 Coup. And you are right to advise googling General Smedley Darlington Butler. I've been descriping the coup for some years where its appropriate but never got much reaction. My mother's maiden name is Smedley and we would hear the story frequently on growing up.

You are incorrect though in naming the Vanderbilt, Rockefeller, and Ford. They could have been involved but the only ones named were those that spoke directly with Gen. Butler (Singer Sewing Machine (the largest industrial Co of the time), Dupont, Remington, and the organizer of the plot Charlies Davis presidential candidate of the Democrat Party and Chief Counsel for Morgan Bank. Its a great story never heard. It was the founding of the modern Republican Party.

This was a deft political move by Snowe. Leaves her in the game. Keeps her above the fold in newspapers and right out front on TV talk shows. In the end she will vote against the Health Care Reform Bill because no competing bill is as pro-insurance co as the Baucus Bill. Now that everyone knows the insurance co have been double dealing and by their own report confirm that there is no free market for health care insurance and they will continue to raise premiums above and beyond what the market will bear. If they continue, private insurance will not exist because no one can pay for it. The Senate hands will not be tied up and they will re-insert a public plan into the final bill. A public plan is the least expensive and most effective plan being offerred. The public plan will not add a dime to the deficit. We can pay for the whole reform by just bringing the troops home from Iraq.

"I was on my way to spend my money at Lowe's this morning to do my part to stimulate the economy and I found myself behind this little hybrid of a car bearing a bumper sticker that read, "We did it! - Obama/Biden"

Well, as luck would have it she pulled along side of me at a red light about a half mile down the road. I beeped my horn and gave her a big thumbs up. She rolled down her window and I said, 'I love your bumper sticker!' She thanked me. Then I quickly added, 'It's GREAT that you are taking responsibility for your mistake!'

She gave me the finger and drove off." Come to think of it - she did look a lot like Olympia...

jimlay...thanks I needed a laugh.

Progressive liberals (AKA socialists) will assure the demise of the USA.

I meant that the Vanderbilts, Rockefeller and Fords were enamored with facism as a means to an end. Not that they had any hand in the attempted coup.

And janenj, it's just as easy to say "ultra right wing republicans (AKA facists) will asure the demise of the USA." Centrist thought is important. Believing that either extreme is what we need is downright scary.

Thank you Bangorean I misunderstood. But now there are two of us who understand the last 80 years of us political history.

Janenj; BS. Its the Republicans that have caused our economic collapses, exported our jobs, and wasted our military resources by invading non-belliegerent countries.

janenj & Bangorean, centerist thought sounds good but its an adication of intellectual honesty. We have a clear trail from the coup to a coordinated plan by Singer, Morgan, and Dupont to create the intellectual capital (Chicago Economic Department funded as part of the plan, Penerdine University created as part of the plan, the Mellon heirs contributed $600 million to implement the plan from 1940's through 1990's) necessary to rebuild the Republican Party. The takeover of the Party by the extreme right-wingers in 1964. The "Southern Strategy to bring in southern racists in 1968 and 72. The defeat of ERA. Infiltration of the military by extreme christian fundamentalists (on-going). Along with many other actions. All to rebuild the Republican Party as a credible political threat. Original cause - restore the gold standard destroy the FED of the coup. As I remember that's part of Ron Paul's current platform. His wing of the party are the heirs to the intellectual leaders of the coup.

I knew she'd buckled. If anyone needs an operation and your a baby boomer do it now or the government will say your not worth the money later.

So far all Snowe did was really nothing. Instead of yeaing or naying her, this vote was to move the so-called bill forward. It would have moved anyway so her vote was really no big deal. When the rubber meets the road and all the other garbage gets added in by Reid and cronies, then we will see how she votes. Then we will see if she sticks by her guns and says no public option when pelosi pushes her agenda around and tries to get it in when they reconcile the bills. Now Collins is piping up too, they all want some of the press and thunder. Maybe if obama invites them for a beer, he may persuade them.

The Republican & Democrat parties are equally to blame for the mess in Washington. They all need to be "recycled." Useless is as useless does.

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