Maine is ready for TABOR, unfortunately the politicians aren't. Augusta has screwed the citizens of Maine for so long that they don't know how to counter TABOR if it passes.

I haven't really made up my mind yet on this issue. I ask the question, if the govt has a legitimate expense that benefits the overall population and can plainly show it, why would they not want the input of it's people? If proposals for services such as police, plowing, road maintenence were shown to the people as absolutely necessary, why wouldn't they think people would approve it? What scared me was this profound statement "Rep. Jim Martin, D-Orono, who opposes TABOR II, said it is unrealistic to expect state and local government to treat budgets the same way taxpayers do. " Now if I ran my budget like the govt runs theirs, I would have been out in the street years ago. Why shouldn't we expect accountability and fiscal responsibility from our elected officials both state and local?

I do see where they may be nervous that the citizens may say they don't need or want something that could impact a community...such as a new school or a new fire truck. But I do think people when shown validity of something would acknowledge it. In the same token, you can't keep spending when you don't take in enough to spend and the burden then is put more on the working people and the home owners to bear the burden. Many folks want something as long as someone else is paying for it but if you ask them to kick in more since they use a service more than another person does..no way!

I still got some thinking to do on this one and excuse me if I may tend to be a little skeptical when the govt says TRUST ME to spend your money wisely.

LilMikey, I agree with your thinking but there is too much common sense attached to it. Remember, we're talking about politicians in Augusta here. "Common sense" and "polititians" just don't go together in this State.

Absolutely we are ready, we NEED it.

I have to say, I'm inclined to side with TABOR...there are plenty of accomodations for average growth, as it is tied to population growth.

Shocking to think they Augusta doesn't think they should live on a budget, like they expect us to...

YES on 4!!! (And a big fat NO on 6...)

Ok, I don't disagree that there need to be some sort of spending controls implemented for state and local governments, but I don't know that this is the solution. As for the comment of "Rep. Jim Martin, D-Orono, who opposes TABOR II, said it is unrealistic to expect state and local government to treat budgets the same way taxpayers do," I agree with him. I don't want to sound like a liberal whackjob, but there are taxpayers who have been presented with facts and still believe that the healthcare system is fine, the polar ice sheets are not melting at an alarming rate, and Fox News is fair and balanced. I have a job that brings me into close contact with small local municipal governments throughout the state, and there are many, many instances of the taxpayers in these towns making decisions based on emotion, and not rational thought. Is that what we want our communities governed by?

Our forefathers established a system where we elected our legislative representatives with the thought that they would be educated individuals who would learn about the issues at hand, and we would trust them to make the best decision for the people they represent. If the system is so broken because we cannot trust anyone that we elect, then maybe we need to abandon that system. We can just have referendums on all propositions - popular vote sets policy. Doesn't sound really efficient to me...

The crumbling of the Maine economy has little to do with government spending, in fact in many areas State government spending is the only thing keeping the economy afloat. Without the myriad of people working for the state, or for organizations primarily funded by the state, private business in much of the state could never survive. The loss of the logging and manufacturing industries has a lot to do with the lack of private business growth, and this loss was a direct result of CONSERVATIVE economic policy at the federal level. As in most other blue-collar states, little money was ever spent on education and infrastructure because the populus assumed that those jobs would always be around. Now it is exactly those things that big business looks at when choosing a base of operations, because the American economy has become mainly a service economy. Access to natural resources, etc. is a secondary concern for most businesses in the American economy today. TABOR will not spur any kind of lasting economic growth, if any at all, because not only does it fail to address this issue, it exaccerbates the problem. An economy cannot support small businesses on its own in the American economy today...the success of small business depends, unfortunately, on large operations which employ a multitude of people who in turn consume the goods and services produced by small business. This, again, is a product of CONSERVATIVE economic policies from Reagan up through Bush II that gifted control of our economy to Corporate America. Why anyone outside of the Bourgeoise continues to believe that this silliness is somehow good for them and the Nation is beyond me. Probably that excellent education system we have here in Maine...

etnajoh, when you said you don't want to sound like a liberal whackjob, you should have stopped right there and I would have believed you. The added comments about healthcare fox and global warming gave you away. It isn't the system that is broken, it is the people in the system who spend your money just like it isn't theirs that's broken. The system is there for these people to do the bidding of the people. I have seen and heard politicians say, "in my conscience I can't vote for that" although the people wanted it. They weren't elected for their conscience. I would also prefer someone who applies common sense to issues rather than someone with the best education money can buy having no common sense. If you agree with that congressman than you would see no harm in what is done with our money. How many times have we seen elected officials run on promises conning voters to THINK they would do what they say, reason why we voted for them, like you said, only to have them turn around and go against eveything they said they stood for. Nope, I think people in towns have enough of their own common sense to know when a new school is really needed or when road work is necessary and can rationalize what should be dished out if and when it can be shown why. I think this discussion is leaning me in one direction as I think more on it.

joshua...ever hear this? Sounds familiar to what you are saying.

"This government is here to protect the people, not the bourgeoisie or the rich." That was from higo chavez while he was having the govt take over another industry down there. The word bourgeoisie..gotta love it.

My ? to myself and you is how to decide which way to vote in our continuing quest to at least not let my total tax burden go any highter at best,

You know what makes me not warm up to the no sayers of Tabor, espeically all the special interest crowd.

The underlying message seems to be that the average Joe citizen that incompasses a very brood spectrum of our citizens is just this. Our elected officials and special interest groups don`t seem to think that our Maine Citizens are smart enough or do not have enough common sense to do a better job then they have done. Well I can tell you right flat out I am ready to be the Gov of this State and I think alot of other citizens are also ready. One of my favorite Presidents was Reagan no matter what you think about his overall performance, the one thing that he demonstrated to me is a average man with a heart of gold could sit around and eat jelly beans and surround himself with people to help him make decisions and all the while pumping up the Spirit of the American People by showing them the glass was half full not the other way around.

The insults being thrown around that us citizens cannot figure out how to continue to maintain such services as libraries, schools, public safety, pothole repair — pretty much the gamut of public services. I guess according to them we are only good to blindly throw our money into whatever these arrogant condesending people think is the right way to do it.

Lets just take the word Tabor out of this. Do you know that there are at least 20 States that are doing very similiar type contols on how there tax dollors (you know our money) will be spent. The insult that I would let any senior citizen starve is just hitting me the wrong way. How about you. Almost any of us can surround ourselves with people to help make decisions that take care of all the common good of all the people. I dang sure don`t feel like that is happening now, how do feel about it? WE have the right to have any program to deliver services we want. And we are dang sure smart enough to change any control that is in Tabor to take care of any crisis that probably present itself in a more honest way. In my opinion we have to make up our minds and start somewhere for I have not seen much perfection out there in any form shape or manner. Have you?

Lets get together and change the Potatoe State to the Tabor State. As stated by Bullwinkle "It does not cut any spending, repeating that, it does not cut anything."

Voting for the Tabor State

Do You Know if you vote on this issue it brings you to the same subject but with very different comments and less of them.

I can't believe someone has actually used the word "bourgeoise" in these comments. How impossibly thick is that? Call me a capitalist roader or bring on the Great Leap Forward but I've seen Marxism first hand and it's no substitute for capitalism. You're either naive or simple-minded, Joshua, if you think that dialectic materialism trumps a free-market economy.

The greedy and pro-socialism liberals are busy telling lies about TABOR, because our best chance for true tax reform in Maine will come if

YES on Q.2 and YES on Q.4

win on November 3rd.

Please get out and vote!

FMI: www.MaineTaxpayers.com

I don't want to sound like a conservative "wackjob" but personally I can't take it anymore. My property taxes, income taxes, excise taxes and gas tax have increased (sometimes as much as 100% over the last 40 years,) while my income has not increased 30%, and I'm one of the lucky ones. We have 23 social service agencies in Machias, each with their own administration, staff, and State money. There were two such agencies in 1969. I want someone to tell me that the addition of 21 agencies and their budgets have made a significant positive impact on the town of Machias or the surrounding area. The D.O.T. just contracted Lane Construction who paved a 1 mile section of road from The Gardener lake turn-off to The Whiting town line. This stretch of road was already the best piece of Route 1 in East Machias. Other parts of route one are disintegrating back to dirt, like the piece between the Pope Bridge and the and the Gardener Lake cut-off. The State built a rest Stop on Route 9 about 4 miles West of Wilderness lodge, and people smashed it and left their waste on the floor, so the State's answer was to build them a new restroom fully modern down the road a-piece. Last time I stoped at that facility it was too dirty to use, despite the State paying a contractor to keep it clean and in good repair. My favorite governmental con-job was the replacement of the Verona Island bridge. The State went the whole nine yards to pull the wool over taxpayers eyes. They posted signs which announced the danger of crossing the bridge, then they lowered the weight limit to 60,000 pounds. AFTER they obtained funding for a new bridge, they returned the weight limit to the previous 100,000 lbs. Of course the new bridge was a Cadillac which included a sightseeing tower for tourists too lazy to climb a number of surrounding hills to see the same sight.

I'm tired of paying for this foolishness. Tired of the Government making spending decisions without regard to citizens who must pay the bills. I will vote for TABOR again, and then if it fails to pass, I wait, like an old Red Sox fan, for the next time.

The term bourgeoise is often used in the rhetoric of the extreme left, and Chavez has used it many times. It is useful to those promoting a total command system because it is an abstract concept which the poor masses (especially large in a place like Venezuela) can collectively despise and blame for their problems. This works because control over the media in places like Venezuela is so one-sided. Much the same tool, however, is used in the rhetoric of the Neo-Conservative Right in the U.S. The media in the United States is more variable, of course, than in Venezuela. If a person's world-view, however, is shaped by only one source the end result is the same, hence the problem with FOX (or, for example, MSNBC on the left). In Conservative media rhetoric , the abstract terms or ideas involved are socialism and intellectualism . Consequently, poor and middle-class conservatives resent intelligence and a high level of education (disbelief of global warming, despite the consensus of the scientific community, is an example), resent government, and resent the idea of socialism (although very few actually understand the term's meaning). They blame these ideas, and the people who espouse them, for their problems without even thinking about the fact that the nation has been governed by extreme economic conservatives for the past 25 years or so. The loss of the manufacturing economy is a result of conservative policies, the fact that the United States has become one of the least socially mobile societies in the developed world is a result of conservative policies, the fact that, since the 80s, real-incomes for 95% of Americans have fallen while the real-incomes of the upper 0.01% have increased by 500% is a result of conservative policies. So, bourgeoise is a term often used in the rhetoric of the far left, but it also has a more real meaning, and that is not just "rich people", but a network of a handful of very wealthy families that dominate American politics and business.

Poor and middle-class conservatives do not resent intelligence and a high level of education - they resent those who infer that they're stupid because they don't believe in Marxist twaddle. And anyone who continues to preach AGW is a short-busser, man. Don't be so pathetically preachy and pedantic, Joshua. A smattering of liberal arts education and you think you've got the answers to all of man's problems.

if you'd actually read my original post, instead of picking up only on the term bourgeoise, you'd see I wasn't making a point about Marxism at all. I was making a point about the role of government spending in a predominately capitalistic economic system, where there is little current growth of large private-sector investment. My point was that TABOR is only going to exaccerbate the problem because we don't have all of the neccessary resources to draw investment at this point. If you look at any of the smaller (population-wise) states that have attracted big investment (Kentucky is a good example), you'll see that while these states have low tax-rates, they didn't accomplish their low tax-rates by instituting some silly catchall policy like TABOR. They accomplished their low tax rates by making an investment in things like infrastructure and education to draw modern businesses to their states. This increased private investment then allowed those states to pare the growth of their tax rates. I think that capitalism is primarily right, but that government has to play a balancing role in the equation. The fact that you picked up only on the term Bourgeoise, out of all of this, only serves to prove my second point about the dangers of rhetorical terms, and maybe that was my mistake to begin with. Regardless, my issue with the concentration of wealth in this nation comes not from a belief in Marxism, but a belief in the fundamental principles of this Nation. The people who founded this nation would likely have felt the same way, as their issue with Britain was much the same. Tyrannies are tyrannies whether they are governmental in nature or not.

I have already voted via absentee ballot. I voted Yes on 1, No on 2, Yes on 3, Yes on 4, No on 5, No on 6 and Yes on 7.

There, that's simple enough!

I am for TABOR, it is all over the news that the roads will crumble, aren't they already? They state that educatioin will be under minded, cut it out, it is a sin what the teachers are being paid in this state. Although as noted we may find that TABOR was a drastic measure and may have to be repealed in the future but this is a wake up call for the people in Augusta, hey the citizens of Maine if they want to get rid of the law then so be it, put it on the ballot, but the population in Nov will speak and I feel will speak with a heavy hand. Stop the run away spending in Augusta, put more control of the money in the hands of the local towns. I am sick of paying for services that I never see, why do I want to pay income taxes for a school in Portland or Presque Isle? I want to put my mone into my community, the roads I drive on, the local kids that go to school. Come on, lets put the power back in the hands of the residents. Vote for TABOR.

Our elected politicians have MADE us ready for TABOR. After TABOR I, they swore that they had "gotten the message." If they did, they have a short memory.

Don't want to ruin your town? Fine...send the amount of your income tax your town, and send your property tax to Augusta. See who uses it better.

Maine's economy is all about good, well-maintained roads, not just for the tourists and visitors, but for us, who live and drive here and beat our cars and motorcycles on cracked, heaving roadbeds, many of which are becoming like goat paths. TABOR II will hurt roads and highways, which means YOU.

commutah wrote:

"TABOR II will hurt roads and highways, which means YOU."

TABOR II will hurt nothing if the State learns to manage their money as a family must manage theirs. TABOR cuts nothing. TABOR doesn't even lower taxes. What TABOR does is send a message to Augusta that we've had it. That we're tapped out, and they should reexamine their NEW proposals and see if they fit into some economic reality. The idea that State representatives don't like to vote on raising taxes, and have devised a way to get the money without having to face their constituents on the issues (Indexing) forces us to slap them down with our legislation...TABOR.

If you are satisfied with the job our employees in Augusta are doing, then vote no. If you think they could do better, you might consider a "Yes".

commutah,

How does this bit of fiscal responsibility (TABOR) hurt anything? Like the above post says, this is not cutting any taxes at all. Do you think that the population of Maine is so stupid we cannot determine how our money is spent best. The politicians in place now are definately not doing it properly.

"U.S. deficit biggest since 1945

Obama administration closes the books on fiscal 2009: Falling revenue plus soaring spending leads to a $1.42 trillion deficit.

That made it the worst year on record since World War II, according to data from the Treasury and the White House Office of Management and Budget."

http://money.cnn.com/2009/10/16/news/economy/treasury_deficit/index.htm?postversion=2009101617

What's the difference between now and the end of World War II? The rest of the world isn't all bombed out anymore.

Interesting that no commenters played the Colorado card. TABOR promoters say that everything is rosy in Colorado and state or at least imply that this is due to CO TABOR. Things are not rosy in CO even though TABOR promoters infer that from talking to a few of their compatriots in CO. As what Prof. Revier says about the impact on education, even "ordinary people" with a conservative bent are down on TABOR for what it did to their schools. Several communities have voted it out and even more plan to soon. Lets not make the same mistake. NOT (No ON TABOR).

ElectraGlide: Ordinarily I don't like to play spelling or grammar cop, but don't make a Dan Qyale mistake ("change the Potatoe State to the Tabor State").

Worked in Colorado off and on, they are doing just fine with TABOR.

Aspen Boulder, Veil and Golden don't like it, Colorado Springs, Durango, Pasqugula Springs, and Nunn like it just fine.... Guess which towns are more like Maine...

Let me present this little logic puzzle for TABOR supporters. The primary arguments I am seeing in support of TABOR are that the citizens of the state are more than capable of deciding how our money is spent and that our legislators in Augusta are incompetent and are horrible at managing our money, with some people going so far as to claim that they could be governor, legislator, etc. and do a way better job. Well, last time I checked, the people in Augusta were elected by the citizens of the state. If the current legislators are inept and should not have been elected (or re-elected in many cases), then the wise judgement of the citizens of the state should not have elected them. This leads to 2 possible conclusions that I can think of: our elected representatives aren't that bad and they are doing the best they can with what they've got, or our fellow residents that we are now wanting to entrust with deciding (to an extent) how our money should be spent maybe are not the best decision makers.

The thing I'll say is that to those of you that are so sure you could do a better job than our elected officials, why don't you run for office? If the judgement of your fellow residents is so sound, if they can be trusted to be smart enough to make the right decision, then you would clearly get elected, right? The fact that you are not running for selectman, councilor, legislator, etc. says to me that you are either all talk and really do not think that you could do a better job running the local or state government, or that you deep down believe that the people would not be smart enough to elect you.

The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. Everyone feels entitled that they are better than someone else. Why are we trying to subvert the democratic system our forefathers created? Decision by mob rule is not a good decision. Let the people we elect do their jobs. If they do a crappy one, don't re-elect them! That's how the system is supposed to work!

David889327: the difference is that the federal debt was owed to American bond holders, not foreign entities. When Uncle Sap (not a misspelling) paid them back, the money stayed in our economy.

The simplest question to ask to me is...is this state running it's affairs the way you do at home? If you live over your head and need to buy the latest and greatest and have to have every toy on the market, then you would not see the govt as an overspender. If you maintain a tight budget at home and even during bad times find ways to cut spending and live within your means, still have what you need, still have services that are essential to you, maybe tabor is for you. For anyone to conclude the govt shouldn't be required to conduct business like a person budgets their everyday life is beyond me. No wonder these hogs step up to the trough every chance they get. They say FEED ME..and we do just that.

Etnajon..."That's how the system is supposed to work!"

Your right on that, but it is a fact for alot of people that it is not working now. I agree that we trusted our elected officials and I guess one could say that it took along time for alot of people to see that the trust has been broken. Are people ready to vote out alot of elected officials (yes I think so) is that going to take a long time (yes}. Can we use Tabor to help us out in the mean time, I think so. Will having used Tabor give a message to current and future elected officials. I think so.

One would have to wonder why a State that was in the middle of a boom cycle would vote in a Tabor. Could it be because Colorado elected officials were not in tune with there own citizens. There had to have been a good reason to have done it.

.

Gopher, how ironic is it that in criticizing EG for his misspelling, you also belittle Dan Quayle...and misspell "Quayle." How's your glass house holding up?

EtnaJohn,

You are again way off base. Sometimes these elections are pick your poison type of elections. There is nothing wrong with holding our elected officials accountable for there actions. Just because we elected them in, does not mean we have to live with it. Give me a break, your reasoning is so far off, its laughable. We as citizens of this State, see nothing wrong with holding our elected officials accountable. We are not cutting the budget, repealing any taxes or taking money (our money) away from them. We are simply acting as another check and balance. You tell me there has never been any elected officials that have voted or acted differently than you thought after you helped vote them in. Once they are in, Politics takes over.

Your post is so full of holes that it could be torn apart all night long. I have better things to do. When you have a better reason to not vote for TABOR, please come back. Later Gator

I admit to not fully understanding this issue. I also admit that I do not know how the state currently is spending the money. That is why, I vote each election for representation. These are the people that should be held accountable, they are the ones going to Augusta and hearing the facts, deciding how, when and where to spend our tax dollars.

If this law passes, I wonder how many citizens are truly going to take the time and examine the state budget to determine if a tax increase is truly needed. I doubt many.

Remember, there are the 2 Maines....Are people in Southern Maine going to be interested in voting for a tax increase that would benefit a project happening in Northern Maine....I am just saying...Be careful in your consideration of Tabor, there could be unintended consequences that would bring more harm than good.

cheeta wrote:

"...there could be unintended consequences that would bring more harm than good."

Please tell me what harm would be worse than being priced off family land, robbed by people who do nothing but sit around and collect State Checks, and maintain employees who have no respect for the people they are supposed to represent. I also love the Bangor-governor's message that those of us who "choose" to live in the rural areas must pay extra for the privilege.

TABOR is my way to vote in Southern/City Maine's election. The Portland-Lewiston-Augusta crowd has good roads, jobs, and far more voice in government affairs. They pay for their good roads with gas tax dollars that we in northern Maine must pay to get 35 miles to the grocery store, and 200 miles to a decent hospital. Geez, I have to drive 70 miles over the worst road in Maine to get a pair of underwear! I want a voice next time they want to spend a half billion dollars on a bridge. I want to be heard when they subsidize their bus system on my gas tax dollar. Maybe if TABOR passes The citizens of Portland Lewiston and Augusta will have to pay their own way. Even if they don't, I want them to know there's revolution brewing out here in the woods!

The Maine Heritage Policy Center, the Maine arm of the far-right wing National Heritage Foundation with close connections to Grover Norquist who is a libertarian extremist quoted as saying he wants to "shrink government to where it can be drowned in a bathtub" clearly shows the real motives behind these extremist TABOR initiatives. These extremists have been pushing this scheme in states all across the country (27 in total) for many years now, and even such very conservative states as Nebraska and Montana have rejected it. On their third try, they passed it in just one state, Colorado, which suspended it for five years after it caused havoc including high schoolers literally wearing their jackets in class because they could not afford enough fuel oil. In Maine we have LD1, circuit breaker, homestead exemption, balanced budget amendment, and school budget local referendums already. We also already have people's veto and local referendum provisions. We have also just re-structured our taxation policies. We all pay taxes, and we all agree that taxing and spending needs to balanced appropriately against our need to invest in the very things that improve our quality of life in Maine. We have just cut the state budget by $500 million, perhaps with up to $200 million more on the way. The TABOR scheme would lock us into these huge reductions through its ratchet down effect, and would strangle local control of budgetary decisions through its blanket, one-size-fits-all expensive referendum-for-everything scheme. It is a very bad idea which is why 27 states have rejected it, why Colorado suspended it and now wants to kill it entirely, and why we have already rejected it twice. It is not the right plan for Maine. Period.

If Augusta would have listened after the original TABOR vote, TABORII would not be on the ballot. Vote yes for TABOR!

cheeta....Ya somedays I agree it is all so overwhelming. For me anyday that a citizen takes the time to state there opinion on a major subject is helping to take the stress off of me, so that is a good day. Opinions are stated in alot of ways, some with anger and frustration. But no matter what there is some good info in there statement most of the time.

You have three good ?`s that I can see. All thru out your statements you ? what citizens will do or not do if there is not a Tabor and if there is a Tabor.

1. We have voted in alot of good legislators in alot of positions. What happens to them when they get there is the issue. We believed in what they told us and you already know where that has got us. I just don`t agree that using the SSDD approach to solving the issue of getting our legislatures to stand up and do what we put them in there to do will ever change unless we the people get involved in a different say. Like I said about Colorado people they are far from being stupid. Why did they do it. They are light years away from starving anyone in that State.

2. We citizens do not have to take the time to examine the state budget to determine if a tax increase is needed. That is the job of our legislators to present to the citizens of Maine (with a Tabor) that a new tax increase is needed and explain it to us why. With a Tabor it is then up to the citizens to either give it a thumps up or down. It really is the samething as voting for a legislator (which we will still be doing) only now we will also be deciding how our money is going to be spent on our tax dollors (our money). They already have in my humble opinion enough of our money plus the % of increase they are allowed to maintain services. Are you saying we the citizens can`t help and decide if extra money is needed to assist our legislators to start spending our money better if a tax increase is needed. It is our right my fellow citizen and our responsibility to change whatever is happening to our legislators that makes us feel that our money is being wasted.

3. The 2 Maine thang. We already have the 2 Maine thang and that is never going to change with or without Tabor. That my friend is anger and frustration talking. I for one think the average joe citizen can do the same if not a better job with that issue. Maybe if we help get them a casino they will see how fair the north can be. Remember they helped get us our casino no matter how you feel about that issue. I guess you have to just believe that our citizens are fair. You also have to remember that 45% of our citizens wanted Tabor last time and that my friend is one heck of alot of citizens. You have to keep in mind why Colorado did what they did at the TIME that they voted it in. Why are other states trying to decide how to correct the SSDD thing that has got so many citizens frustrated and angry.

You know that at one point in our lives we all had to learn how to drive a car.

You know that there are going to be alot of special interest legislators that don`t want us to drive the car. When we see who they are we can vote them out for they have demonstrated to me that they don`t know how to drive the car and need to go. Then after that job is done we can decide if we want to continue to be a Tabor State or not. No one is going to starve in the process.

I would like to use just one example of my frustration. This is on a Federal level which is nothing more then a big state.

I am very proud as a US citizen that we are one of the few if not only country that can take a big bullet (missle) and aim it at a small target on the moon and hit the target.

I am not proud though when this country that is in deep economic trouble has spent all that money to see if there is water on the moon. I think someone somewhere should of said. Gee could that have just waited a while and used the money to help our citizens in a different way. I might be wrong but I don`t think so. Almost anyone could of made that decision if given the oppurtunity.

rbilancia..you quote.."shrink government to where it can be drowned in a bathtub" My answer is you know that the truth ls somewhere in between most extremes. Who in their right mind doesn`t think this States government can`t stand at least a little shrinking or alot of shrinking. Great job though in trying to scare the citizens of this State.

Your quotes>>"We have also just re-structured our taxation policies". "We have just cut the state budget by $500 million, perhaps with up to $200 million more on the way". My answer to that is maybe they should of done it along time ago and are the cuts really being done in away that is fair and balanced. Or are special interest groups getting more attention then the average Joe citizen.

Or are you just part of the special interest groups that needs to be voted out.

Hard for me to tell.

Your statement or scare tactic that high schoolers having to wear jackets in school. I seem to remember having to do that back in the day. But now students seem to be living in the lap of luxury. I don`t think you have to look very far to see that. I have to wonder what special interest group other then the Educational special interest group is responsible for that. Not easy to out vote them at town meetings is it people. Can you see that there just might be away to do that with Tabor.

MoveThen: Well please continue then as your only argument against what I stated before is that politicians sometimes changes when they get to Augusta. Do all of them change? Are they all incompetent. The other thing I would bring up is that we keep focusing on Augusta, but in truth, TABOR II would have as much, if not more of a negative impact at the local level. Those communities with a local town meeting form of government would be forced to change to a referendum form of government. This takes away local control and will add additional layers of inefficiency to the current budget process. The other piece is that if the excise tax law also passes, local towns will be hit with a double-whammy of reduced revenue and an extra layer of difficulty in getting that revenue replaced. This just is not a good idea right now.

Etnajohn....so true about the anger. I don't think it is misplaced anger though. I agree, we do keep sending these people to represent us and vote them in. Why do we ? Because they promise, promise and promise then let us down. You do make another good point about the town meetings, maybe passing something that everyone has a piece of the pie in it's involvement will spur more activism. When people do voice their concerns, they are called whackjobs and nutcases. Only when the politicians find them screaming in favor of their side of an issue do they speak warmingly about dissent and how wonderful it is to speak out. Since DC and state pols don't seem to want to listen to the people, maybe this is a good way to send them a real message and tell them the trough will be filled if and when we feel it should be filled. Tell the hogs to eat what is in the trough and we will decide when it gets low enough to be filled. Is it the right answer? I really don't know but until something is done to send a real message that the people are in charge, I can't see any other way. Maybe with more public input and showing these people that money should be used, not wasted and throwing some of them out at re-election time, others taking their place may get the hint. People are fed up not only with states but with federal as well.

EtnaJohn,

If everyting you purpose were to come true, you still see no tears from me. Too bad, so sad. We are not cutting taxes with TABOR, we will make these governments act responsibly. I don't care two craps if you think we should trust our elected officials. This will be a balance and check for them. People are fed up, and this is our way of having a say. You say this is not good idea right now, what is your idea and when?????? You can cry me a river, but the polls show this is going to pass, as it should!

On 10/16/09 at 10:12 PM, Joshua wrote

Spoken like a true liberal who worships at the alter of government spending.......

"Please tell me what harm would be worse than being priced off family land, robbed by people who do nothing but sit around and collect State Checks, and maintain employees who have no respect for the people they are supposed to represent."

Amen, HarryHSnyderIII, AMEN!!!!!!

When the Maine State Employee's and Teacher's Unions break out their shiny, top of the line protest signs, I know I need to vote YES! for TABOR.

EtnaJohn, I wonder if our forefathers ever foresaw a time when the voters would know so little about the people running for office at the time the voters were expected to make the decisions as to whom was to be their legislative representatives. Even with the media and all the various forms of quasi-coommunications, we only heard media-selected "sound bites" or edited captions in the print media for the most part. The Mail system has become prohibitive in costs. How much do any of us know about how the political PARTY dictates what decisions OUR representatives will make. Those parrties seem to dictate which candidates we will even be able to hear. So "trusting" our representatives can no longer be the issue because those representatives cease representing US as soon as the votes are counted. It's time WE took back countrol of OUR government (and our pocketbooks at the same time).

Frankly, I have more faith in the common sense of the American voter when the issues are put to them - if only for the questions the voters will ask until they think they have received enough information to justify any more spending. And if they don't get enough justification, they will say "no." At least we will not be going to lunch (or somewhere else) with the lobbists and that should stop a lot unnecessary government spending!

HarryHSnyderIII, with all those social service agencies in Machias, maybe consolidation in those services with one central office would save a bunch of taxpayer money. Wonder how those people would feel about that idea? Suppose the Governor would go out on a limb and promise consolidation of social services agencies would prevent increases in property taxes? Doubt it.

As to all these references to Conservative political ideas or Fox news network v the other networks - I am an INDEPENDENT - registered as a Republican in this state because I think the Maine Democratic Party has done terrible damage to the state's economy. I don't watch Fox News because I think it is only interested in preaching one thought/one opinion. I do watch news programs and panels on all of the other networks and listen to all sides from the conservative to the liberal. And then I make up MY OWN MIND. I am well educated with a post graduate degree. But I am also retired and trying to live in this state on a fixed income - and that's not easy. Gets more difficult every year. Because of the every increasing taxes (by one name or another). I can see areas in my own town where costs could be reduced. I can see areas in our school district where costs could be reduced. And I have absolutely NO PROBLEM with supervising any increased tax/fee proposal MY state GOVERNMENT wants to impose on me. But first I want to see this state's government get down as lean and fiscally responsible as I have had to be because of this state's government.

And DON'T THREATEN ME WITH EDUCATION, POLICE AND FIRE PROTECTION CUTS. It turns me off. If the need is there, I will support it. BUT this state's government has been using Education as the carrot in front of this voter too long. Ever hear the story of the boy who cried "wolf?" Well, I'm not running to the rescue any more.

glenna>>>Just WOW, WOW, WOW!!!! Same to almost all here!!!!

Glenna......amen. Well put.

I guess it depends on the town and city governments. If it shorts them on money, of course local taxes are going to go up. Schools, local services, etc. can only be cut so much and with less income, do the math. There is probably much less fat in local governments than with the state.

Well put Glenna. Here is what always happens though. The state bureaucrats slough off their responsibilities and turf it to the towns. Towns with decent populations, and some jobs can handle this situation much better than those with less than 2000 people. The smaller rural towns will suffer in this, while southern Maine with a larger population can more easily handle the state budget cuts. Right now, southern Maine is pulling more than their fare share. I suspect this issue will pass. Uninformed voters always vote with what they think is their pocketbook. It usually comes to bite them, because in the long run, the burden just get shifted.

I work in the education field, and I know we are always used as a whipping boy by everyone. The pols say we do a poor job, and the local people think we are overpaid. Just remember, do you want an illiterate taking care of you when you are in the nursing home? Where I currently work, insurance deductibles were doubled, and we had a 15% premium increase, couple that along with a 5-10% pay cut. I have always worked two jobs, and now may need to look for a third. I have never like the state boys using us to gouge taxpayers on our behalf when the money always went SOMEWHERE else in the end.

I'm from Colorado. I don't think TABOR had much to do with Colorado's growth . We had a housing boom, homes and busiess centers were built reguardless if they had an owner to occupy it. Build it and they will come. Towards the end, many sat empty a long time. TABOR hasn't helped keep the government or politics here in check. They may have rose along side with the boom, well now they are falling with it too.Only to cut spending they are having state employees take days off without pay, cutting funding for police and fire departments. Finding more ways to tax us. And schools, some still have $150 or more per child registration fees each year. Some books and school supplies have to be bought by the parents for the child. Books aren't cheap, and their resale value isn't always that good. Think carefully how you vote on this one!

On 10/18/09 at 9:35 AM, rbilancia wrote: "The Maine Heritage Policy Center, the Maine arm of the far-right wing National Heritage Foundation with close connections to Grover Norquist who is a libertarian extremist...."

rbilancia, Because I (and most Mainers) want accountability in State government, having the brakes put on the wasteful spending and growth of unsustainable, failed government programs (Dirigo!), you label me as a right wing extremist!

Judging from your talking points, you are either A) a state employee, B) a teacher or C) a politician. Your reference to high schoolers being forced to wear jackets in class leads me to guess. "B".

Tabor is a BAD idea. Even if Mainers would vote to support tax increases to fund crucial services that's not the only concern. If there is an urgent situation the state would have to wait until the next election cycle to put it to a vote OR have a special election, which would actually COST a lot of money. Maine has actually been cutting costs where they can be cut. Even some programs that people need have been cut already. Enacting Tabor would lead to more cuts because of the associated costs of holding special elections. It also just adds more red tape to the governmental process. Don't we already have ENOUGH red tape?

Voting NO on Tabor...it's too risky and has too many potentials for problems.

Responsibility! That's why we need TABOR. It will force the State of Maine to be fiscally responsible through responsbile and ethical budget balancing. Punish the politicians like they've punished the taxpayer for decades! Force Augusta to do their job! The rape of the taxpayer MUST end somewhere...so let it be now.

MaineSurvivor...enacting TABOR won't force the State of Maine to be fiscally responsible, though. You would think it would but that is never how these kinds of things turn out. It would lead to cuts in education, services for the elderly, poor and Maine communities. Maine has the ability to take really bad policy changes to a vote right now. It's A LOT easier to stop something from being enacted than it is to overturn a law that turns out to be harmful. Tabor is WAY TOO RISKY for this state. It would be far better to enact same sex marriage because that will bring an estimated 60 million direct spending dollars to Maine businesses in the next 3 years. No on 1 and No on Tabor...that will help Maine's economy without risking cuts to critical services.

With the fact that Maine truly has 2 completely different Maines. The solution to many of the issues may be in the cession of Northern Maine, from Southern Maine. This could allow the individual states to form their own laws custom tailored to their own unique electorate. Then Northern Maine could legislate to bring in more business, therefore, creating jobs without the over weighted vote influence of the wealthier Southern Maine to the contrary. Further, Southern Maine could be rid of its “poor relatives”, and be rid of the burden of having to only need the north for their exclusive “backyard playground” and with their exclusive” indentured staff”.

Augusta has "NO" credibility

Vote yes on #4!!