What is up with borrowing for 20 years and tax payers paying that interest on that money which just breaks down to paying additional tax revenue. I am a tax payer in this town and I dont want the city to go into business again using my money. Who is going to run this new facility and to whom if any is going to make this large investment make money. The people that are pushing this so hard do they have their self interest in mind at the tax payers expense. I cant beleive this city is considering putting the tax payers in debt more than we are now in times of financial stres that we have now ,incredible. If you cant afford it wait untill you find a way to raise the money without burdening the tax payer to fund your giant elephant.

How does a brand new arena with 5,400 seats "expand to 7,400 seats"????? What will the PERMANENT seating capacity be for events like ice hockey, ice shows, and basketball? 5,400 is just to small.....period. That is actually smaller than the capacity of the Bangor Auditorium! How can you spend $60+ million and only come up with 5,400 seats??????

I continue to be amazed that the city council is pushing this auditorium on us, without the benefit of a city wide referendum. With the economy in the tank and the reality that this auditorium will generate no more business than the existing one, spending this money makes absolutely no sense. It's time for a vote by the citizens - this is not a decision for the city council, it's too important. I don't think that we need a $60 million dollar aduitorium to host high school basketball games and ZZ top concerts.

Mainejeff- it's not going to have ice. There's already ice at Sawyer arena and no one is going to buy a ticket to watch the hockey men's clud play a pickup game on Saturday afternoons at the new auditorum. If you're thinking that Bangor is going to attract a pro-team, your delusional. The university already has its own ice, so they won't be using it either.

Let the people decide if it's worth it to them in a referendum next Spring.

Nckwark, the city intends to pay for the entire project with revenue from Hollywood Slots. That would include the interest on bonds.

mainejeff, the additional 2,000 seats would be folding chairs on the floor for concerts. As far as I know, although the arena would have a floor 200 feet long by 85 feet wide with piping underneath, there would not be hockey in the arena's immediate future. This, of course, makes absolutely no sense. With all of the youth and high school hockey programs jockeying for ice time at Sawyer Arena and at the rink in Brewer, it would be bizarre for Bangor not to have an operating rink in a new arena, which could also be used for community skating.

Bangorian, ice is essential for ice shows. A rink would be used for community skating and youth and high school hockey.

No it isn't a necessity. Lower taxes are a necessity.

Just follow Obamas lead and spend yourself into oblivion, I mean out of this recession.

Why even have government if there is going to be a "referendum" on every damn thing that comes along??? If no taxpayer money is involved, then there should be NO referendum! If this new arena does not have at least 7,000 PERMANENT seats and ice then it is DOA and the money should be put to better use. With $8 million already in the bank, I'm sure there must be SOMETHING that the city can use the money for to generate more revenue and development in the city. What about trying to lure some retail, dining, entertainment, and hotel development along the waterfront? Or redevelop Bass Park and the golf course into a hotel and conference center with other amenities including restaurants, spa, fitness center, IMAX theater, etc.

Great news, Bangor sounds almost "shovel ready"! Build it and they will come.

Bangor should look to Harrisburg PA for an example of what can be done. Once without an active downtown, Harrisburg leader started construction on the Whittaker Center which helped transform the downtown area. New shops, restaurants etc soon followed. It is now a vibrant downtown community. Bangor has a good start with the casino and needs to keep the ball rolling on this new project. This project should be considered an investment in Bangor's future

You just have to love it - The way our illustrious city council think that is - Just this week the State of New York is BROKE - Now they have the population and the BIG DRAWS - I haven't seen any figures being throw around about - How much money is the present Auditorium bringing in - What are the expenses - Are they saying that Hollywood Slots is the only funding source - That means what we already is loosing money - Now you want to spend $75,000,000 - heat and staff twice the space - I would consider this seriously only if Bangor Public Works was not involved - This is one of the Bangor's biggest money loosing departments - Bangor leaders have proven that they can't manage effectively - just look at $130,000 deficit from the Festival - Have the taxpayers of Bangor secretly paid that bill - This project needs to go before the voters - The taxpayers -

I think a referendum is a great idea, because "necessity" is not well defined. (I'm all ears). And NOW is a terrible time to stick taxpayers with something like this. Everyone is hurting, so I would be highly skeptical of any councilor trying to approve a project like this. BORROW, BORROW, BORROW, BORROW. These are fiscally irresponsible people.

I think a referendum is a great idea, because "necessity" is not well defined. (I'm all ears). And NOW is a terrible time to stick taxpayers with something like this. Everyone is hurting, so I would be highly skeptical of any councilor trying to approve a project like this. BORROW, BORROW, BORROW, BORROW. These are fiscally irresponsible people.

Just remember a referendum gets voted on by everyone in the city. This includes the uneducated people on the topic. Just look at our president. Anyone can get the outcome they want by spending enough money to make people think one way or another. Bangor citizens have already wasted enough money with relocating their police station back to downtown. Which they have already outgrown. Nice job Bangor. I would think you would rather have more seats than a bridge to hollywood slots. Also redoing the race track could bring events back their as well. Maybe bring the snowmobile racing back too. The reason they want to act now is to save money. Instead people want to wait untill the cost increases. A large reason why the existing building cost money is because of repairs and heating efficency. We need a new building. Try to reach out to surrounding towns and see if they can pitch in over the 20 year period. I do think it will benifit them as well.

Have the panel pay for it, It is not needed at this time of the economy, they don't make money now on BA what make any one think that they will on a new one, Hollywood slots who was crying to have a slut/slot house they were going to have a concert hall, so let Hollywood pay for it and keep their promise I mean motor booty should be able to fill the new arena :) Hollywood slots doesn't really want a concert hall because it will take people away from their moron machines, I hope they get a casino in western maine so that way people will realize that the mother ship will be slowly be sinking watch how much Hollywood sluts/slots spends to help defeat it, the new casino proposal It is amazing how much a small city can screw up so huge. Leave it alone it is not affordable at the time and like at the beginning Have the PANEL pay for it. :)

A referendum is the only way it should be, now if we can come up with a way to educate everyone on the subject to meet mudboginmaine standards. But the council needs to have plans drawn up that will allow the city to be able to draw big name events that people want to see. Most if not all events require 10,000 seat capacity.

mainejeff- I hope you saw the posts by ricts1 and myself on the article concerning Hollywood Slots funding of the new arena of a couple days ago. I think the 3 of us all concur. The handwringing, multiple proposals and studies, delays etc has us fed up! The "living in the now" folks don't want it at all cuz it might raise their taxes and they wouldn't use it anyway( which is a somewhat valid stance I guess?) The folks like us that want to see Bangor grow and develop want something that will be an attraction to the city and that will be truly multipurpose in both size and function. It won't happen I'm sorry to say. I think it's an embarrassment that the city of Bangor can't find a way to fund this project without laying it all on the taxpayers of the city and/or Slots... One thing is for sure, It seems that IF and it's a big IF anything gets done they have made up their mind on the propsal.... The one that will be obsolete upon opening.... Wouldn't you think that all the lessons learned from the existing BA ie. size, lack of functionality Issues that have made it antiquated 30 years ago SHOULD be addressed in any new proposal? Unbelievable....

MudboginMaine - Are you a city council member? Good lord, your argument that a referendum is flawed because it would give everyone a chance to vote is the same kind of one track thinking that seems to have taken over the Council. Of course we want everyone to vote. Besides, I'm not convinced that every voter needs to have comprehensive understanding of the details associated with building a new Auditorium to make an intelligent decision. Look at the city council - they have plenty of information about this issue and they seem to have lost their minds. At least if everyone voted, we wouldn't be any worse off than we are right now.

Maybe Brewer will build it- now that Bangor has all the hard part done.

Bulldoze the old one.

Forget the new one.

Sit in lawn chairs and watch the Bangor Band play during the summer. Go to the folks festival, and the fair.

1950 all over again. Sleepy little bangor, small-town minded to a fault. No growth expected or encouraged. Not when all our young people move away when they are able.

Or do it right, 10K seats, able to put ice in. The sky bridges need to be struck from this proposal. They are frivolous, use that money for more seating, to attract bigger and better acts.

Or have several more studies, then make a decision, then have a petition drive by the public to put it ot a vote, then vote it down after spending all this money on multiple studies. Rinse, lather, repeat.

Obviously we can't possibly run it as well as Augusta, who have managed their building for some time now. A nice building. Not us. Wooden seats that people from this century can't fit in comfortably (height-wise, and width, if you get my meaning). Horrible, unintelligible sound. The old barn served us well, and served it's purpose, but it's past it's day.

Oh well, good luck folks. A defining moment for the city, methinks, one way or the other.

Meeting Rooms, Banquet Rooms Conference Centers whatever you want to call them! Everybody and their brother in Bangor has this offer. Spectacular Events Center, Jeff's Catering and even Hollywood Slots to name a few accomodate these functions now. Why is Phase Two even being talked about??? Phase One is definitely needed to bring entertainment etc. to Bangor. Concentrate on that puzzle FIRST!!

Thinkaboutit, the city does not produce the Folk Festival. And "losing" is the word you're looking for, not "loosing."

Mudboginmainer, what makes you think the new police station has already been "outgrown"? The police station is a lot closer to where it should be instead of being out near the boonies (to exaggerate a little), which is what the City Council at the time wanted.

Jerks! Don't they know the state is broke, the people are broke, and the job prospects for many are broke too.

Good one ricts1. Sad but true.

Hampden1- You are absolutely right! The phase 2 project should be a privately funded project. If a new and desireable arena is built first, I'm betting a private company would be willing to do their own version of phase 2.

ryanrrobbins - Well since they are land locked and cant grow at all, plus the fact that it was said once they opened their doors. It wasnt the City Council that wanted the Police out by the airport. They had a company come in and find the best place for the police station. The location of the police station does not stop crime. Look where the old station was and all the crime that happened right up the street. It would be easier to get to every part of the city if it was out by the airport. So Bangor paid a company to tell them the best place for a police station is out by the airport. Then the people wanted it down town. So you paid a company to do nothing. Thats just a waste of money. You cant complain about that since you lost your own money. I do think that a new arena needs to be built and that along with the waterfront on both sides of the river will bring people to the area. Maybe surround areas taht would benifit from the arena could help with paying as well. Im not against Brewer helping out a bit. They shouldnt split it because Bangor is going to see the most from the new arena.

A new arena is necessary, but the revenue will come from the Civic Center side. Phase One needs to be completed first so that once Phase Two begins the meetings and conventions can be held in the arena.

For those still believing that the arena is too small - get over yourselves. The growth potential for the Bangor area dictates the number of seats, not the pie-in-the-sky "build it and they will come" crowd. Ice is not in Phase One as there is no one around to use it (the University has said no repeatedly).

The most important statement that came out of last nights meeting was the money. We will not be getting funding from the county or the state or the feds. This will be a Bangor building. If it looks like there will be an increase in taxes to pay for this project, a referrendum would be in order. It has been said, repeatedly, that the cost of this new arena will not be shouldered by the taxpayers of Bangor. Mr. Wheeler pointed out last night that that statement was not printed in stone (paraphrasing) and as such taxes could increase to cover cost.

If the only way this arena will be built is with a tax increase, a new building will have to wait.

As I've said before, I'd rather wait rather than build something "sufficient" for now that we could easily grow out of. Spending $50-70 Million on a "small" building makes no sense to me whatsoever. If you want to continue to haggle over ice, so be it, I can live without it. But the seating needs to be 8-10K regularly.

Being shortsighted isn't gonna help us at all. We're gonna have to live with this building the rest of our lives, so let's get it right if we're gonna do it at all.

If we aren't going to do it right, live with the old barn for as long as it can be band-aided together, then put it (and the rest of us) out of it's misery.

None of us can see the future. All we can see our what our limitations are, and in this instance, the limitations of "our" arena.

Is it OK to comment on this story?

mudboginmainer, although it is true there is less space in the new station than in the old station, much of the old station's space wasn't usable because of that building's structural problems. I see no reason the new station couldn't be expanded by building up. As far as the new station's location, you need a police station downtown, because that's where people expect it to be, especially people who don't know the city. And I know I'd feel more comfortable knowing the station is nearby if I'm walking downtown at night.

ryanrrobbins - im not talking about office space. Im talking about parking space. They also want to add two more officers because of a gov. fund. That is more parking they need that they dont have. Having the PD downtown shouldnt make you feel safer. People are sitting their waiting to run out the door and help you. They are driving around and once they get the call they drive over. I was at Sea Dog and saw someone hit a car and leave. Called the cops. Its a roll down the hill and had to wait 20 mins. How would this be any different if they put the station out by the airport. All people that are not from the area arent going to downtown. No one goes downtown in its current state. Hopefully with the new arena the downtown area will become more of an attraction.

ricts1 - The suggested number of seats is not arbitrary - a maximum of 7,400 seats is what the experts say Bangor can utilize. For every 400 additional seats, you're looking at $1-million. Your 10-grand seating will cost an additional $6-million and the question is still - what do we need 10,000 seats for? The market surveys (yes, plural) have always said 7,400 what the market could bear.

The sky bridge is necessary because we will not have enough parking once the new arena is build. When Phase Two is completed, the hotel will house convention and meetings participants, thus giving them easier access to the complex.

If you have a way of filling a 10,000 seat arena, please, please tell us your secret.

mudboginmainer, there is a parking garage right down the road from the new station. Heaven forbid someone would have to walk more than a few dozen feet to get to work. Also, you seem to contradict yourself when you point out that the police patrol the streets, yet earlier you said having the station near the airport would (somehow) make it easier for officers to get around the city.

Pjramsay said: "The sky bridge is necessary because we will not have enough parking once the new arena is build."

There would be more than enough parking. Perhaps you've forgotten there are about 3,000 parking spaces inside Bass Park itself. There are no plans to do away with the parking lot.

pjramsay, I am not nearly as savvy as you, or those who conducted all of the various studies that we've had over the years.

What I'm speaking of is from personal experience, and from perspective. You know quite well that I cannot tell you any "secret", as there is none. What I can tell you is that if you want to fill a 10K seat arena, you'll never do it in a 7400 seat arena. If you want to attract acts that require 9-10K attendance to even try to book, you cannot do that with a 7500 seat arena. If you ever want to grow, you are limited by your current capacity.

We will never be able to host any sort of Regional tournament for any of the UMaine teams. (Or Husson, an example of "growth" if ever there was one.) We will not be able to host anything that ambitious, ever. Conventions, political, or business. We will be limited. I am sure that there have been many different times over the years that we could have had events that could have taken advantage of that much capacity. Not one of us, market surveys be damned, can predict what will be the trends of various shows and events (and their attendance) in the future. The only thing you can accurately predict is that if you are limited to 7500, that is the most you will draw. You can NEVER do better.

What I can tell you is that if you spend $70 million for a 7400 seat arena, you'd better be ready to live with that, because that is all we will ever have. There won't be another $70 million (or more) to fix it later.

I fully expect that what I'm suggesting will not be considered. I've been here too long, and I know better. We'd rather stay small. This is just a way of insuring it. I don't need a market survey to tell me that.

Oh yeah, the skybridges and parking.... I'm still not buying it. The only reason they are in there are to placate the Hollywood Slots people. The walk up the hill from the parking garage isn't that far, we walk MUCH farther when going to shows in Portland, when the garage there is full or too much money.

If the new arena is where it has been suggested, it will only be across the street from the garage anyway.

Save that money, and use it for the actual facility.

It WILL NOT have 7,400 seats!!! 2,000 folding chairs on the floor is NOT part of PERMANENT seating capacity! Are they going to put folding chairs in the middle of the basketball court or circus or other shows requiring the floor space??? No ice in Bangor, Maine????......HAH, what a joke! So long hockey games, ice shows, public skating.........so long 20 or 25 revenue dates!

Again............WHY would you spend $60 or $70 million on 5,400 seats?!?! That capacity is lower than the CURRENT piece of crap! This building will have to last for the next 5 or 6 or more decades!!!

Good grief, there are WAY TO MANY backwards people in Bangor and the state!

If we aren't going to do it right, don't do it at all. Take a much smaller chunk, say $10 Million (a pie-in-the-sky guess, admittedly) and replace the seating and the sound system, and be done with it. Use the rest of the Hollywood Slots money for infrastructure in the city, in and around Bass Park.

Just don't spend all that money on something prettier, but no more functional.

So much complaining and not many offer solutions or ways to fill a 10,000 seat arena. As for ice, there are three sheets already in the greater Bangor area. Sawyer in Bangor, T.J. Ryan in Brewer and Alfond in Orono.

What types of acts will you attract with a 10,000 seat arena which you wouldn't with a 7,400 seat arena? If you have solutions great, but Monday morning quarterbacking multiple studies which all came up with the same capacity seems rather silly.

So what good is building a newer, smaller version going to do? Make us feel better about our pretty new building?

$70 Million Dollars is a lot to spend for "pretty".

I see NO return on that investment.

ryanrobbins - the infield space is designated "green space" as outlined in the Bass Family Trust. Part of the parking lot will be for the skate board park. With the increase in the size of Phase One and Two, parking will be an issue.

mainejeff - wow...where did you find 20 to 25 revenue dates and why do we need ice? U Maine has said no again, and again and again.

JD2008 - You're reading my thoughts again............

So tell me, pjramsay, why build it at all? Seriously. Less seating than the current venue, why build it at all? Occording to you and many others, we aren't going to draw any kind of successful acts here to Bangor.

Why spend $70 million, complete with a "skybridge", for less seating? We'll never see those additional dates, right?

I don't get it. And I don't want it. Fix the old one.

mainejeff and ricts1 I'm with you guys all the way! As Jeff says it's the PERMANANT seats that set capacity for most events! Also, ricts1 is spot on in his assesment of FUTURE LIMITATIONS with this project. Phase 1 is a 5400 seat arena for 57M! To me, an extra 5 or 6M is not THAT much more to increase the seating to where the future(or the present) will not be so negatively impacted. I find it funny that PJ and JD say with so much certainty that the area won't ever draw any acts that could fill up your hat let alone a 5400 seater for crying out loud!!!! There's no give and take with them they know for sure! Also ANY modern arena built ANYWHERE HAS TO HAVE ICE! I can't beleive how shortsighted some people are on this posting.... That's what got you the current BA. Bulldoze it down, and go to ne next "city" of Augusta and play your high school basketball. Bangor don't pay THAT much for so LITTLE when 10% more can get you something that will last longer than a genereration.

BTW, why is the other proposal from a few years ago being considered as well. Wasn't somebody paid for that "study" as well?

On 11/13/09 at 5:45 PM, Steve63 wrote:

"I find it funny that PJ and JD say with so much certainty that the area won't ever draw any acts that could fill up your hat let alone a 5400 seater for crying out loud!!!! There's no give and take with them they know for sure! Also ANY modern arena built ANYWHERE HAS TO HAVE ICE!"

++++++++++

Ummm that's not exactly what I said. I asked a question - "What types of acts will you attract with a 10,000 seat arena which you wouldn't with a 7,400 seat arena?"

and then made a statement - "If you have solutions great, but Monday morning quarterbacking multiple studies which all came up with the same capacity seems rather silly."

The new arena will have the piping for making ice. It will have the "plumbing" but not the refrigeration units.

I guess I will ask the questions again - What types of actis will you attract with a 10,000 seat arena which you wouldn't with a 7,400 seat arena? It's a question that needs to be answered.

Pjramsay, who said anything about the racetrack's infield? There is plenty of existing parking right next door to the current auditorium. Unless a new skate park would be ridiculously large, those parking spaces aren't going anywhere.

With ice, there is plenty of demand for a new rink. Alfond Arena is booked solid for the UMaine teams. Sawyer Arena is OK for youth hockey, but hardly a rink to be particularly comfortable in. Don't forget it started out as an outdoor arena. There is demand for another arena. Let's face it, Sawyer isn't even good enough for a high school championship game. Alfond Arena, despite UMaine's love affair with it, is a bad building. It won't last forever. UMaine won't be able to afford to replace it with a worthy successor.

So we build a 10,000 seat (extra $6-million) arena. We add the ice (extra $1.5-million). For fun we will not build the sky bridge (saving $1.1-million). So, our new Phase One arena will cost about $63-million.

Now, we have room for the Basketball tournament (7 days), Elmo (1 day), the WWE (2 days, maybe), Shrine Circus (3 days), and assorted days (40 days and I'm being generous) for shows, conferences and graduations. That would give us 40 to 45 days of venues. One needs to point out that we do not sell out the current venues. If we can't sell out 5,000 seats, how do we sell out 10,000?

With interest, our mortgage will be about $4-million per year for the mortgage (20-year note). The total cost for this 10,000 seat (with ice that we will need once a year for Sesame Street) arena will be about $2,500 per resident of Bangor.

In reality, the new arena will not draw a regional NCAA tournament - we don't offer the population base. The University has stated repeatedly, they will not use the new arena's ice. And that same population base does not now, and based on the studies, will not draw A-list concerts.

We can fill a 7,400 seat venue for conventions, basketball tournaments, a three ring circus and yes, even Elmo. The time of "build-it-and-they-will-come" is over. The current building must be replaced. But it must be replaced at a price we can afford and with a structure we can fill.

Bangor is on its own. We will have to fund this project with slot money, cash from naming and advertising rights. We will need to look at parking fees and ticket surcharges.

But I also believe that the City Council must honor their commitment - no new taxes to pay for this complex. And if we can't afford it so be it.

Ok here goes in NO particular order, NCAA hockey tournament, Elton John, AHL Hockey, Nickelback, Jonas Brothers, Icecapades, Eric Clapton, Rush, Miley Cyrus, Billy Joel, Taylor Swift, Journey, Kiss, to name a few that I either have seen in Portland or Manchester recently or I believe would play in a Manchester sized arena. IMO these acts WOULD NOT consider a small venue( 5400-7400)as proposed, but would in a new, modern 9k to 10k arena> You asked, so I came up with some. I'm sure I could come up with more. 5400-7400 is NOT a good slot (pardon the pun) to attract decent talent. Bleep the studies and I don't care if YOU wouldn't go to any of the shows listed above but others would. Just not in Bangor cuz they won't come there due to the venue, NO other reasons!

On 11/13/09 at 5:36 PM, pjramsay wrote:

mainejeff - wow...where did you find 20 to 25 revenue dates and why do we need ice? U Maine has said no again, and again and again.

------------------------

UMaine has never said ANYTHING! The entire administration up there is in turmoil.....who cares what the current regime thinks or says!?!? You (and a few others) keep making this FALSE and BASELESS statement.

On 11/13/09 at 5:42 PM, ricts1 wrote:

So tell me, pjramsay, why build it at all? Seriously. Less seating than the current venue, why build it at all? Occording to you and many others, we aren't going to draw any kind of successful acts here to Bangor.

Why spend $70 million, complete with a "skybridge", for less seating? We'll never see those additional dates, right?

I don't get it. And I don't want it. Fix the old one.

--------------------

Totally agree with you on all points! The current plan should be defeated.......if this is the FINAL plan then I hope that Bangor voters DO vote on it because they will no doubt vote it down!

ryanrrobbins - the current parking area will lose some space as the skate park and the entrance drives are relocated and adjusted. We haven't seen a "full" parking lot because we haven't seen a full arena.

The Auditorium had ice. It was under utilized and the monthly maintenance was costly. As for the Alfond replacement...you are joking right? Alumni dollars have continued to pour into UMO and Husson. Trust me, when it comes time for a new arena at UMO, the checks will fly faster than a puck on ice.

On 11/13/09 at 6:10 PM, JD2008 wrote:

Ummm that's not exactly what I said. I asked a question - "What types of acts will you attract with a 10,000 seat arena which you wouldn't with a 7,400 seat arena?"

I guess I will ask the questions again - What types of actis will you attract with a 10,000 seat arena which you wouldn't with a 7,400 seat arena? It's a question that needs to be answered.

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IT WILL NOT BE A 7,400 SEAT ARENA........IT WILL BE A 5,400 SEAT ARENA!!!! Do YOU want to spend $60 million for this project????

Regarding seating capacity........8,000 PERMANENT seats would be appropriate. 8,000 seats for hockey......8,000 seats for basketball.......and an extra 1,000-1,500 seats for concerts depending on floor seating configuration.

JD also look at the problem Portland is having with acts being taken away due to CAPACITY issues. No other reasons. Nothing against Manchester but I'd rather be in Portland anyday. The bands and other acts play where the most seats are, they don't give a darn WHERE they play.

On 11/13/09 at 6:42 PM, pjramsay wrote:

Trust me, when it comes time for a new arena at UMO, the checks will fly faster than a puck on ice.

-----------------------------------

Now that right there is FUNNY! How out of touch are you???

Steve63 - coming concerts to Portland - Jim Brickman, 311, Phish, TNA Wrestling and Elmo. Through the summer Portland offered U.S. Synchronized Skating Championships, Motely Crue and New Kids on the Block. They don't come for the venue - they show up for the venue - they show up for the population base. This is an old argument.

mainejeff - It was mentioned again at Thursday's meeting - the University of Maine will not use the new arena for hockey. That is why ice surface was shelved, but the piping will be part of Phase One. I was at the meeting as well as the August 3 meeting. This is neither FALSE or BASELESS.

Steve63 there is no reason to be rude with your answer..."Bleep the studies and I don't care if YOU wouldn't go to any of the shows listed above but others would." The questions people are asking are legit questions which need answer.

I looked at the tour cities of some of the list you provided and there one city with a population of less than 150,000 people, Taylor Swift will play on Moline, IL with a population of jsut over 43,000 with a seating capacity of 12,000 for concerts. I will let others draw there on conclusion regarding the population of Bangor and the proposed seating capacity of this arena.

PJ Portland is having problems drawing too. It's because Manchester has a higher capacity and a newer arena. Why is that SO hard to fathom?

Not hard to fathom Steve63. The point is population base sells tickets not the venue. The Manchester Monarchs have the lions-share of dates at the Verizon Arena. But they do draw monster trucks, Disney on Ice and the Harlem Globetrotters.

In March, the big name concert - Martina McBride and Trace Atkins. And in April the doors will open for the International Fantasy Hair Competition.

The A-listers must be waiting for the new "Dunkin' Donut Dome to open in Bangor.

ricts1, Bangor is not big enough for more than 7000 seats....when the original BA was built there was Dow Air Force Base, there was a paper industry that gave Old Town, Lincoln, Waterville and Millinocket higher than average incomes; times have changed and Bangor has become a SERVICE center for depleted communities. The population of greater Bangor has DROPPED. A Civic Center will not give Bangor economic growth any more than a slot machine parlor; economic growth comes form attracting businesses. With economic growth you will get your Civic Center. The Bangor Council must find ways of attracting businesses not rock bands. What about spending the blue haired ladies money on a technical business park and a marketing program to fill a tech business park? Or is there not an educated work force in Bangor to fill the jobs?

Steve63 says "NCAA hockey tournament". You are DREAMING! College presidents decide where tournaments are held and they will not send 6 (with Byes) teams to a facility that based on population can not sell out every game. Scenario: teams - Denver, Wisconsin, Minnesota, BU, Harvard, Maine, and Michigan. THERE IS NO WAY YOU COULD SELL OUT THESE GAMES....NO WAY. NO TOURNAMENT.

tommie - agreed. The study from a University of Maine professor wanted to take the buildings once occupied by Shaw's and Wal-Mart and make a Research Park. The Bangor Area Research Center (BARC) could employ hundreds and slow the brain drain of our smart and energetic local residents.

We could grow our population base and increase salaries which means we could pay for new arena's and stabilize our local economy.

Ok PJ you DID get a laugh out of me on that one. Pretty funny. As I, and others have said, just demolish the old BA and have NOTHING. You and JD don't feel it's worth doing (a larger venue than proposed) because there's not the population base and that stance is somewhat valid. One thing is certain, there never will be either because lack of development and poor planning have left the remaining citizens old and mostly underemployed. One last statement... If I said you could have 5400 widgets for $57 or 7800 widgets for $63 which would you choose?

Steve63 - trick question. How about having a 10,000 seat building empty 320 days a year or a 5400 seat building empty 320 days a year?

I can't even sell the widgets I have on Ebay..........

I went to watch UMaine at the NCAA tournament in Worcester... Not exactly a paradise either. I guess the college presidents thought so. I love the Centrum (or whatever it's called this week) though. I do like Dukin' Donut Dome though : ) it has a nice ring.

PJ you've convinced me... NOTHING is the best way to go. Give the 7 days of business to the BIG CITY of Augusta when it's tourney time.

The Time Horton Hall, The Irving Oil Orpheum, the Cianbro Center, The Burger King Dome, or the Wally World Complex. Doesn't matter whose name is on it as long as they pay $365,000 a year for the honor.

Steve63 , I also went to that tournament..................2 to 3 million people within 30 miles and quite a few empty seats; what does that tell you? Let's make more money by going to Bangor? DREAMING!!!

Yeah I remember tommie, I think I was sitting next to you. Cianbro Center hmmm. I like it.

pjramsay, have you noticed that the Cumberland County Civic Center has no corporate name? Did you think Bangor can do what the CCCC can not? It sits in a city with the corporate headquarters for IDEXX, National Semi Conductor, Fairchild, Wrightexpress, etc and they no takers. pj, you are dreaming!

Hey PJ if they name the new arena The Burger King Dome you'd rather have it be a Whopper Jr. than a Whopper right?

I don't believe that Portland ever made the offer. Augusta tried with no luck.

Bangor has 100,000 commuters traveling through each day. The arena will be located across from the racino and it is on the lower flight plan to the airport. The new structure will be visible in most city web sites and most advertising. The visibility and marketing potential is worth the cost.

More of a Whopper Lite Steve.........

Well then: " Have It Your Way" lol sorry couldn't resist... Trying to lighten up a little....

On 11/13/09 at 7:38 PM, tommie wrote: Repeated separate thumbs down will cause comment to be hidden

ricts1, Bangor is not big enough for more than 7000 seats....when the original BA was built there was Dow Air Force Base, there was a paper industry that gave Old Town, Lincoln, Waterville and Millinocket higher than average incomes; times have changed and Bangor has become a SERVICE center for depleted communities. The population of greater Bangor has DROPPED.

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When the Bangor Auditorium was built, there was no I-95 and the population of Maine was about 800,000 compared to the current 1.2 million.

On 11/13/09 at 8:12 PM, pjramsay wrote:

Steve63 - trick question. How about having a 10,000 seat building empty 320 days a year or a 5400 seat building empty 320 days a year?

---------------------------------

What is your point???? Does 3,000 more plastic seats cost more to maintain??? A $60 million dollar building is a $60 million dollar building. I GUARANTEE you that 5,400 seats will have MANY MORE empty dates than 8,000 seats! Either way, you are heating the building and scrubbing the toilets! I guess that you want to be remembered like the generation that planned and approved the inverted roof Auditorium that was made too small to have a regulation ice rink........too funny.

By the way, do YOU or others against a larger seating capacity STILL support a $60 million project with 5,400 seats???

Jeff I think PJ went to BK....

Harrisburg? Are you on crack? That market is a lot bigger than this one. Lets get those table games going at Hollywood Slots!

If they don't put in enough seating to attract well known musicians for concerts then it's a waste of time to upgrade at all. That's the only thing they could do that would actually attract more events and better utilize a new facility.

Hey Centaurmyst, I agree totally. Please tell PJ when he gets back from BK. OK?

pjramsay...you don't sell out the current venue because there isn't enough seating to bring in acts that people actually would pay to see. Everytime I check what's going on there now I've never heard of any of the acts. If there were more PERMANENT seats you could actually attract some popular musicians and bands that people currently have to drive all the way to Portland to see. And don't even say that more famous acts won't attract people. Look what happened when Obama came to speak...the auditorium was filled to capacity with tons of people still lined up outside trying to get in.

If they go with the current plan it is a complete and total WASTE of money. Not putting ice in would be ridiculous, too. Ice shows alone would be worth it but public use and school hockey potential would be huge. Either do it RIGHT or don't do it at all. Continue with the crap amount of seating and continue to get crap events and crap sales. Give Bangor more seats than Portland and maybe concerts like American Idols Live would book Bangor instead of Portland...or both. Those are the kinds of shows that will sell out.

Hopefully, $60 million won't be spent on a 5,400 seat arena......a total waste of money. Just think about what $60 million could do for the City of Bangor? It certainly shouldn't be wasted on an instantly obsolete facility.

Pjramsay, I'm wondering whether you know anything about the layout of Bass Park, because it sure doesn't sound as though you do. I used to live right next door to it.

A skate park would not significantly reduce the number of parking spaces there right now. And no, you do not need a parking space for each seat.

Alfond Arena is the joke. It is almost 33 years old and has already been patched. To upgrade it to today's standards would require tearing out all of the seats and installing wider ones with arm rests, tossing out that high school-caliber balcony, and building a real press box. Replacing the current seats would reduce the arena's capacity quite a bit. The university has no money coming in to upgrade the building. The school is struggling to find money to renovate Memorial Gym so the basketball teams can move back there. The idea that alumni are throwing their money at the athletics department is a myth. If it weren't for one man -- Harold Alfond -- the school would have no arena and no football stadium. The basketball teams would be playing in a gym in worse shape than a lot of high school gyms. The football team would be playing on a field on par with some Class C high school teams.

When the Bangor Auditorium was built, there was no I-95 and the population of Maine was about 800,000 compared to the current 1.2 million. ......the growth has been south and east of our fair city

Someone wrote that Moline, IL has a large arena with only 43,000 people; that is correct but do you know where Moline, IL is located? Obviously not, it is located next to Davenport, Iowa.....nice big city.....headquarters of Buffet's billion dollar empire. I will say it again, we can not afford a big arena.

Davenport, Iowa is a "big city"???.......lol.

I still say that if we aren't building anything bigger, don't build anything. I cannot see how to justify the $60 million for less seating.

If there is a supposed "vision" for this city, it had better rear it's ugly little head soon. because we have no such vision currently. Building a facility that cannot do any better than what we already have is beyond foolish. There is no point. It will be a pretty building, to hold a basketball tournament and graduations in. I want more for my $60 million, please. If it takes more, than let's work it out. But to throw $60 million at it simply to say you've done "something" and still have an inferior facility is foolhardy, and beyond wasteful. Someone with "vision" would see that in order to grow, you have to have room to grow. When you set your capacity at no more than you already have (or less0, you will have no growth, EVER. Not for the rest of our lifetimes, at least.

I will not support it. It is ridiculous.

Mainejeff....Davenport Iowa.....population 100,827 - Density 1,584.6/sq mi (621.0/km2) - Metro 376,160 (132nd) ; a lot bigger than Bangor ME. MaineJeff you live in never, neverland. Bangor is to Maine what Fiarbanks is to Alaska....a little, isolated town that can barely afford or sustain any arena....even a 5400 seat arena.

If Manchester cannot fill their facility nor attract the A-listers, how do you expect Bangor to do so. The realities are we can not fill 10,000 seats. The A-listers will require monetary guarantees to come to Bangor. It is population density and location that dictates where NCAA and A-listers play. Bangor does not fit the demographic of a 10,000 seat arena.

You can scream for 10,000 seats but all the surveys, analysis, and statistics say no. Concerts are based on potential ticket sales not venue. By-and-large Augusta, Portland, even Manchester does not draw the A-list.

If it takes additional taxes to pay for this arena - the taxpayer will require a vote. They will vote no, so all of our pontificating and chest pumping is for naught. I would love to see a venue with 12,000 seats but we have no use for it.

Hey Tommie - don't diss Fairbanks. I've lived there. Larry the Cable Guy could fill the Carlson Center (about 6500 seats) because driving 6 hours to Anchorage in the winter is crazy.

PJ Manchester CAN fill it's arena. I have been to many shows there and they are always well attended. For example I saw Rush in 2008 (a top 5 grossing tour of that year) an A-list band, attendance 9800. Also saw Steely Dan there. Also another very good crowd. estimate 7500. I will concede that MCH is a larger area. The bottom line is that it would be nice tobe able to attract good talent with at least a CHANCE for good attendance. If the building that is constucted( a larger one) is only is half full so be it. As mainejeff has said you have to maintain the building either way. For an extra 10% cost it's worth the chance. If you can only draw 4k or so for B-list acts I'd rather see Bangor utilize some of the funds for something else to bring some decent jobs and perhaps waterfront development. Btw PJ, I think Larry the Cable Guy could sell 9 or 10k tickets in Bangor.

Unfortunately, the Arena Funds from Hollywood Slots is mandated for a new arena, period. It would take either a referendum to move the money or the council to release it. The council is so screwed up right now, I doubt they could come to a consensus on who is buying coffee at Tim Horton's.

Bottom line - we are not going to see a 10,000 seat arena in Bangor. I have been to most of the meetings. The committee, the council and the budget is against it.

I think you are right PJ and that's too bad. I think that they are not using the history lesson that is the curretnt BA. How does the saying go? If you don't learn from the mistakes of the past you are doomed to repeat them. Something like that. Anyway in the mid 50's when the BA was built it was quite an amitious project for that time. 6k seats. No major highways, airports, rock concerts, minor league anything. I wonder what inspired the folks from that era to build the 2nd largest arena in New England at the time. I'm not trying to be wise here, I really do wonder. The" Bangor in Focus-Bangor Auditorim "article is really cool to read ( just google it) The sense of pride that the people had for that building was unbelievable. I wonder whether the same excitement will be generated if the propsed building is constructed. For roughly 60M I would think probably not... just a guess.

Anything new breeds excitement. The one question I have never asked at the meetings is the question of expansion. Can the new building be expanded if the economy and population base changes. One would hope the answer is yes.

Population base? Bangor is the hub for not only Bangor...but all of the surrounding counties. I will say it again...when Obama wasn't even the Democratic nominee yet he attracted MORE people than the stadium could hold. American Idol Live concerts sell out fast...often in only a day or two from sales opening up. Portland is in the south of Maine. Bangor is more central to a lot more of the state. If you want people to USE a stadium you have to book GOOD acts, not crap acts that no one has ever even heard of. You can't book GOOD acts with so few seats. Do the people who think this current "plan" is a good idea even realize just how many people in the top half of Maine drive out of state regularly to see concerts? I have no use for a sky bridge or convention hall. I'd never use them. I'd be first in line waiting to buy tickets to something like American Idol Live concert, though.

Thats an excellent point PJ! If you attend a future meeting would you be willing to find out? I think that would make many of us feel a lot better about this project.

steve63 I gave you the history lesson...Dow airforce base...1000's of airman; Millenocket., old town, orono, brewer class A high schools. The population has headed south, gone, won't come back with an arena; will come back with jobs!

Centaurmyst - conventions and mass meetings bring in the revenue to keep the Arena operating. Without Phase Two, Phase One cannot be built.

Part of the analysis was a zip code search of ticket vendors. We do not draw as much as you think. They also said that the bulk of the concerts would be country as that is what sells in this market.

Steve63 - I will be at the meeting on December 3. I will ask. There should be a provision for expansion.

That would be great Pj thanks. I am slightly skepticle about the zip code anaysis though. Since no one ( or certainly not many ) A or even B list talent has played in Bangor for many years now( due to the venue ), this has to be taken into consideration which I'm not sure if it was. Wish they had that technology when I was growing up cuz there were many big shows there and I would love to have that data. It might surprise you...

OK folks...pay attention...we've heard this kind of talk from D.C. about being urgent and having to do it right now or the world as we know it comes to an end...I go along with build it and they will come but the first order of business is to have funding solidly in place...NO BORROWING....it's not financially smart to do that kind of thing right now....don't give in or it will cost YOU dearly...use the stimulus lies as your guide....if you don't your wallets will be drastically smaller than you ever imagined....good luck bangor residents and KEEP your eye on the ball.....again, don't let them sweet talk you into anything;

as the old saying goes, people are filled with good intentions but things happen.....................

pjramsay...what conventions and mass meetings? Lumberjack conventions, gun shows and the occasional job fair?

Just one American Idols Live concert would bring in more revenue than a year's worth of conventions. Also, the more seats that a stadium has the higher percentage of the ticket sales the venue gets to actually keep. Most headline acts won't even perform in a stadium with less than 10,000 seats. If Obama can attract more people than can fit in the current venue than so could hundreds of popular acts. There are several colleges right in Bangor. Heck, you could fill a 10,000 seat venue just with students at UMO. Look at how many people came to Bangor to go to the fair last summer just because it was a little cheaper? Anyone who seriously thinks 10,000 seats couldn't be filled with GOOD acts are ignoring the fact that when something people consider worthwhile is offered in Bangor or someone famous comes to town people WILL come out of the woodwork. What I want to know is if these people who are deciding this are elected by the people or are they appointed? If they are elected they had better start looking for a new job if they go with the current plan because the people are going to be FURIOUS if they spend all that money and it offers nothing good for the people who live here. Like I said...I have ZERO use for bigger convention space or meeting space. I'm not a lumberjack. I don't have any interest in gun shows. I go to the circus and sometimes the fair. If there are even less seats for the circus I will probably stop going to that as well. I don't go to Hollywood Slots and have no intentions of ever going there unless I check out the buffet sometime.

How, exactly, does the current proposal benefit me? Simple...it doesn't. It benefits Hollywood Slots by trying to attract more conventions and putting up a "cool" sky bridge leading directly to their casino to make it easy for them to make more money off business people from away who are too lazy to cross the street. No thanks. I want REAL concerts and ice shows instead.

Centaurmyst - using the Obama rally as the template for future concerts is a stretch. The Obama rally was free. An American Idol Concert will fill most arena's in the country. So, you have filled the arena once in a year. We could build a 25,000 seat arena and the acts still will not come. The draw is population density and median income.

You seem obsessed with American Idol...........

pjramsay...are you completely blind to the thousands of college students within 15-20 minutes of Bangor? Just the students at UMO could fill a 10,000 seat auditorium. The college actually gets some decent musicians to go there so your claim that decent acts won't go to Bangor is obviously based on some seriously flawed research. When the committee checked the "zip codes" from tickets purchased by people in this area they didn't count all those college kids who live in this area but have permanent addresses somewhere else. Just between UMO and Husson there are about 15,000 college students living in the Bangor area. You said in an earlier comment that the only acts would be "country" because that's what the population would want. That comment is incredibly short sighted and proves that there was NOT any substantial thought put into this so-called study. It's NOT the older people who travel out of state to go to concerts...it's the young people. Over 15,000 college students in the Bangor area...over 1400 students enrolled in the Bangor High School. Don't even try to say concerts geared towards younger people won't fill a stadium because they most certainly would. They always did when I was a teenager and they actually had concerts in Bangor with well known popular musicians.

I'm not obsessed with American Idol...it was an example of the kind of concerts that WOULD come to Bangor if there were a venue with enough seating. The council/committee or whoever is coming up with these ideas need to dig their heads out of their rear ends and do a REAL study that includes ALL possibilities instead of only the ones that would appeal to them personally. Talk about short sighted...

Sorry Centaurmyst, but you still don't get it. The analysis was comprehensive, It covered (current and projected) demographics, median salaries, past ticket sales, venue size, tour scheduling and guarantees, etc.. There was also a survey of potential users of the Arena and the Civic Center.

Sorry, no matter how you dissect the data it does not support your wish list of 10,000 seats and a hockey rink. Based on the current economy, the city budget doesn't support it either. Based on our projected population growth rate, well, no support there either.

There have been multiple feasibility studies. All have drawn the same conclusion. Unfortunately, the conclusion does not support your desires.

Great comments Centaurmyst! I agree with you wholeheartedly. I have mentioned all the great shows I attened in the 70' and early 80's. Once the CCCC was built in Portland top acts shifted there do to a newer, more modern facility ( for the time ).. These shows were always PACKED at the BA. Now even the CCCC is being overlooked by top acts. It's because of the venue. Even though it's 22 years NEWER than the BA it is considered too small compared to the newer arenas in other similar sized cities. Portland has been weighing wheter they should replace or significantly renovate the CCCC also. I'll bet if they could go back in time they would have constructed the CCCC to have atleast 10k permanent seats as they are stuggling with capacity issues now in their 32 year old arena. The point is anything that is done in Bangor should be built for the FUTURE as well as today.

Steve63 - we are not living in the 70's or 80's. Back then we could afford to go to concerts. Back then most people did not have access to MTV, MP3's or CD's. Concerts and radio were the way to see and hear music.

Some things have changed - some things haven't. The Bangor area's population base has not changed. The median salaries have not changed. The fact that bands will play either in Manchester, Portland or Bangor has changed.

"Build-it-and-they-will-come" was the seventies and eighties. Build what we can afford and expand later is the new mantra.

Sorry pjramsay but YOU are the one that doesn't get it. The analysis was clearly NOT comprehensive because it obviously did NOT factor in the indisputable fact that Orono hosts the most populated college in the entire state. College students go to concerts. The recreation department would start hockey programs, figure skating, open skate, etc. Any study that doesn't take into account the college student population is flawed, period.

The college students are seasonal (when school is in session) Centaurmyst.

As to the recreation department would "start" hockey programs, figure skating, open skate, etc...The recreation department does that already at Sawyer Arena. They host open skating programs, they host figure skating programs, they host both youth, high school and adult hockey programs. These programs exist today and have for a number of years in Bangor.

School is in session 9 out of 12 months. The rec department would move the programs to the new facility. Ice shows would come to Bangor. I honestly don't know why you think all these new conventions would come to Bangor, though, because there really isn't anything much to offer. Not everyone is into gambling. It's so obvious by the proposals being made that the "plan" caters to Hollywood Slots and totally ignores the community and what would most benefit Bangor. Who cares if conventions would help pay for the new facility when the new facility won't benefit the people who live here. Personally, I would rather they just not bother at all since all they want to do is WASTE money to make a smaller auditorium. Our family will stop going to the circus because it's already too crowded with a bigger auditorium. We'll just either stay home or drive and see the Kora Shrine Circus in a bigger auditorium and spend our money in a town who cares more about what their residents want. And people wonder why most of the young people move away the first opportunity they get.

First I have never said "conventions" would come to Bangor.

Second just moving these "programs" from Sawyer to the Auditorium does not mean the people who enjoy them would move with the.

The ice time cost at Sawyer was $400.00/hour 4 years ago and I am sure it has risen just like everything else. So let's say they "move" the programs to the new Arena. What is the ice time going to cost? Will it be the same as it is at Sawyer? I highly doubt it as the cost of the facility will be MUCH higher. Would you be willing to pay say 2/3 more, 3/4 more or double per hour more?

Besides, Bangor Youth Hockey has a sweet deal with Sawyer. They get prime ice for practice and games and everyone else works around them. So maybe some would go, but has anyone figured out the per hour cost for ice time at the proposed Arena and asked the current users if they would pay the higher cost or would they look to TJ Ryan in Brewer or Alfond in Orono for ice time or would they simply no longer exist because the cannot pay the higher cost?

Centaurmyst just said "I honestly don't know why you think all these new conventions would come to Bangor, though, because there really isn't anything much to offer."

The same could be said for all these concerts you are bringing to Bangor. Why don't you come to the Arena meeting on December 3 and voice your opinion.

Perhaps I will...where is it and what time?

Normally at 5pm, Council Chamber, Third floor, City Hall.

PJ in response to your 11:29 am post. I know times have chenged and I also know that times in Bangor NEVER DID! Everytime I go there (which is quite often) I am reminded of why I left. There is NOTHING happening. Don't get me wrong, I still LOVE the place but I am saddened that things have become even more stagnant than they were back then. You make some decent points PJ but I also wish that you were a bit more optomistic about the future. I went to the Sea Dog on a Sunday last month, the Sox were playing in what turned out to be their last game of the year. The Pats were playing a big game later that afternoon and there were 6-10 people in the whole place! It's a very nice sports bar and I love it there! I was shocked. If it were in Portland or even Portsmouth the crowd would have been much bigger. Maybe you are right PJ and it's just not the same anymore... I will always wonder though if some of these projects would have been completed 20 years ago, would things be different? Bottom line to me is, if they spend 60M on a 5400 seat arena they WILL be sorry! The proof is as easy to find as looking at what they have now... BTW, I appreciate you trying to find out about expansion possibilities and although you and I disagree on this issue I hope that you might be able to see why many of us feel the way we do... We saw all the big acts leave for Portland once the CCCC was built. Now it's happening to Portland because of the same reason. Building a new arena happens once every 50 years, what will the marketing surveys from 2025 say? Probably that we made a mistake in 2010....

Steve63 - I agree that we don't always agree. The fact is Bangor has been stagnant for nearly thirty years. The population and median salaries have not changed. New industry has not arrived. The City Council believes it has a "new vision" that will probably be 15 years old.

I have moved back to Bangor three times - I do love it here. But I have also moved 17 times in my life. Whether it is a large city or small, I have seen the mistakes politico's can make. Their vision often consists of a sign boasting of their accomplishments or a proclamation declaring the day theirs. But we are responsible because we keep electing them. And as the city's population ages, we repeat this mistake every three years. We have become as complacent as the council.

The past does dictate our future. Statistical trends, analysis, survey's all point to a stagnant economic environment. Without economic growth, even a 4,000 seat arena will not fill. Wind energy is huge in Maine, yet we close our streets so that wind towers from Brazil can navigate north. Research and development is the future of our nation, yet we do nothing to build the incubator's that the University says we need to develop.

Our congressional leaders are like street junkies. They look for the quick fix, the instant gratification - ignoring the future until an election year. I have asked our delegation if the Over-the-Horizon-Backscatter-Radar System at the Bangor Airport could be retooled to run the nation's Air Traffic Control System. If yes, 600 to 700 high paying, new jobs for Bangor. These controllers would be paid $60,000+ per year.

The economic impact to Bangor - a housing boom, a retail boom, additional flights in Bangor, more tax revenue without raising taxes. Unfortunately, no congressional delegate has been able to tell me if this facility can replace our 40 year old Air Traffic System - it is not a quick fix.

So yes, at times, I paint a dull picture of Bangor's future. I believe that we need to reduce the number of councilor's to six and elect a mayor (4 year term) that can babysit these miscreants. An elected Mayor would not be under the thumb of the council - just the opposite. I believe that any research and development or manufacturing entity should pay no property tax if they hire and build locally. I believe that downtown Bangor should be declared an economic disaster area affording it federal funds and the governor should make downtown a tax-free (sales tax) zone for the next 160 days.

I believe in Bangor. I also believe, like the Penobscot River, the city's course will not change.....unless we force it too. Maybe the 32,000 residents of Bangor need this new vision to come from us and not a myopic city council.

Well PJ we finally agree! Great Post.

PJ...Buillding for what is ensures nothing changes or improves. Bangor needs to build for what the town would like to become. Just based on this plan it is painfully clear that this so called "new vision" is just more of the same old same old stagnation that has always kept Maine a good 10-20 years behind the rest of the country. Maybe that's why I'm seriously considering moving to another state shortly after I finish college. I want more than is available to me here...and yes, that includes good musical entertainment and concerts.

Centaurmyst, That's what I did... It was the right thing for me to do then and I am glad I left when I did. I just don't know why they haven't been able to attract good jobs to the area in all this time. I feel that people who have lived there all their lives don't realize what's out there to be had as far as jobs and just plain old fun! When I left at age 22 it was hard because growing up in Bangor was all I ever new. What I realized was that in some cities there IS nightlife, professional sports, concerts, theaters, modern office buildings, people buzzing in a bustleing downtown. As I have stated, I still LOVE Bangor even for what it is. Perhaps when I'm older I may even return. I would just like to see the right kind of progress towards being a viable "CITY" again not just the sleepy little town it has become. I really wish some folks that have been outside of Bangor could perhaps become leaders of the city to provide a different perspective. Something needs to be done. The arena is just one example, but it's a telling one. Building virtually the same building that hasn't drawn a good show in at least 20 years is .. well, dumb. It shows a complete lack of vision and understanding of what's wrong now! Sure the new small arena will have A/C and more modern features which will be nice. But a similar small capacity which will limit its immeadiate as well as future sucess is ... well, dumb! To add 5 or 6m to a 60M project is 10%. That would give you 8k seats. Considering the current BA is almost 55 years old it means what you do in 2010 will be what you'll have for a VERY LONG TIME... Do it right this time please Bangor. Show some foresight like your counterparts from the 50's did when the current BA was conceived. In it's day it made the city proud and rightfully so.

Why is pj haggling with us over seating capacity......but he seems to have no problem spending $60+ million on a 5,400 seat facility????? Why not 8,000 PERMANENT seats pj?????

I REALLY hope that this latest arena proposal falls flat on its face!