OK, let's look at the great job with lots of time off. Teachers are salaried to work 40 weeks a year, 200 days. Having worked in education for 27 years, I have yet to meet a teacher that did not spend at least 5 days setting up classrooms, moving classrooms, attending conferences, give them 5 days conservatively. That brings their work days alone up to 205 days, many do more. Someone working at BIW works 48-50 weeks, 250 days. They get holidays off, say that is Christmas, thanksgiving, fourth of july, memorial day, new years, other extraneous days, let's say 12 holidays,including some longer vacations, bringing their days worked to 238. With years of service they probably get another 10 days of vacation, bringing the time worked down to 228. They have sick and personal time, possible another 10 or more days, down to 218. So this great job with all the extra time off is acutally less than 3 weeks and those working in industry get to take vacation when they want, not dependent on the school calendar. TEachers must also maintain or obtain their certification through course work, workshops and conferences that many do on school breaks and when they are not otherwise being charged with growing our most valuable natural resource. We are asked over and over to take students that are not managed at home and manage them with 21 other students. We are asked to teach with less money available for basics, text books, paper and pencil and we are sometimes asked to teach students who see their families in crisis or hear about how we are overpaid, under utilized baby sitters. Step schedules are in place, like tenure laws to keep school boards and administrations from gutting teaching staff at difficult times. Maine used to be far lower on the scale, second only to Lousianna in how poorly they pay teachers. I applaud the movement up and would guarantee that with the cost of a teacher's education, teachers will look to where they can make enough money to pay student loans and have a home, maybe a family. I am proud of the work I have done with student's I have touched over these 27 years, let's please let go of the idea that my job is easy or that I make more than I am worth. I am worth every penny that I am paid and even with the "longevity" incentives would still work a second job to continue to work with kids every day. I demand more from myself than any administrator I have ever had, I demand that I try my best to move kids from where they are up to as close as they can be before they leave my charge. That's getting your moneys worth.

"generously compensated for a job with lots of time off..." an opinion heavily dependent on ignorance of the teaching profession, and on education work in general. Research clearly demonstrates investments in teachers, low teacher/student ratios and professional faculty development gives us as taxpayers, parents and citizens the highest return on our precious resources. That teacher pay is so quickly targeted is a reflection on our ignorance, shortsightedness, and failure to regard teachers as professionals. The average salary stated here surprises me, as it is out of sight of my experience here in northern maine.

The problem for many rural districts NOW is how to pay for teachers' rising salaries with decreasing incomes and Social Security payments. It's nice to say we need to be fair to teachers, but it's an entirely different and more crucial issue of managing to pay for salaries and benefits.

Health care costs, rather than salaries themselves represent the alarming compensation increases. The costs to maintain even stagnant wages have long outpaced inflation, and this phenomenon is seen in the private sector as well. Universal healthcare would go a long way toward a solution. What would a fair compensation package look like to those who continue to call for cuts? It's one thing to continue to cry "cut" "slash" etc., but more useful to commit to a satisfactory number.

"Maine teachers are now required to pass a test tailored to their subject area to earn certification. A similar assessment could be required for teachers to reach the five-, 10- and 15-year thresholds."

Who wrote this? It sounds incredibly uninformed. Teaching has about 10% to do with content knowledge. That's the easy part. They perform balancing acts daily, you can't measure what a teacher does by a "similar assessment" to the Praxis II certification test (which is a multiple choice style test that takes one day to complete).

I think it is very easy to blame the teachers for all of a school's problems. The truth is that all aspects of public education are highly political, even the hiring process. What makes you think that these 5, 10, 15-year pay assessments won't be the same? I can just see it-- "Oppps, the budget isn't gonna make it this year, let's deny a few teachers their salary increase, surely we can come up with some reason for it!"

This is a terrible idea.

This paper has often said these United States are "polarized" When they mention this "Polarization" it is usually in the context of political ideology, or the left/right thing. There is another part of society which is beyond "polarized" this part is fragmented. it is the attitude that "my job is difficult and underpaid, and everyone else has a job which is easy and overpaid.

I suggest that the critics (and the person who wrote this editorial) take a year off from what they are doing, and give teaching a whirl. You might find a second career that you love, or you might walk away saying "How can anyone do that job" One thing you would not say is that teaching is easy.

Walk in a teachers steps for one week and then decide if they are being paid ENOUGH not too much.

I was married to a teacher and most of our social circle were teachers or otherwise associated with the teaching establishment. And my daughter is a teacher. Never before or since have I known a group of people with such attitudes of entitlement, victimhood, and superiority. (Sadly, my daughter is starting to pick up some of these attitudes.) One of these friends was tired of her poor situation at school so she went to work in the dreaded private sector. Her change in attitude over the next year was astounding.

jspear me experience in the private sector is quite different than the rosy one you portray. Usually I had to work somewhere a year before I could get any PAID vacation. Often, only 1 week the first year and 2 weeks after that. No "personal" days, limited sick days sometimes having to use vacation days, and usually only 6 or 7 paid holidays a year. That means I usually worked at least240 days a year. Not counting days on call or weekends i was required to work. One job I worked required me to work 6 days a week, no exceptions. I know plenty of people who work jobs that require them to work more than 5 days a week. I gentleman who was doing some work at my home had only 3 days off in the previous month.

And those 40 weeks you are salaried for. Easter vacation week off, spring break week off, Christmas week off, Thanksgiving AND the day after off. I know, you are usually required to actually work on some of those days that the kids have off. But not all or even most. And as for the hardship of not being able to take vacation during the school year. Seems a lot of teachers i know plan a week in Florida during at least one of those spring vacation weeks. By the way, I have never worked at a private industry job where there were not restrictions on when I was allowed to take vacation. Depending on the job periods of 3 or 4 months were not allowed.

Go ahead and take one of those higher paying jobs out of state. In most cases you will find the housing and other living expenses eat up all that increase in pay plus more.

The grass is always greener...

Universal health care will help the teacher situation? If there isn't enough money here to pay the teachers what they deserve--which I do support--how is there enough money for Universal Healthcare? Because even the CBO knows there aren't those kinds of savings.

And how many people will say, "If I give my kids a good education, they'll just leave" because we scare away any future they'd want. It's the newest version of, "Don't study so hard...we'll get you on at the Mill."

Those of us who believe private, for-profit health insurance is less expensive, more efficient than universal coverage need only look at Medicare. Further, they are failing to consider all of the private expenditures universal healthcare would eliminate, freeing up capital and income to grow the real economy. As a percentage of our incomes in rural Maine, healthcare costs are consuming a disproportionate share amounting to an enormous disadvantage. As for teachers' attitudes of entitlement, I would ask what fair labor standards should apply to teachers? Would other professionals be remiss in demanding sick leave? Vacation? How does teacher pay measure up against other professionals? You will find it to be lower. Many Americans believe labor standards in the private sector are woefully inadequate, and by standards of the developed world they are. (Indeed, worker productivity in France is higher than ours.) It makes no sense to apply the labor standards you describe to anyone, teachers or otherwise, and Americans have every right to demand rules that uphold family values.

I have never heard that French per worker productivity is higher. I have seen their general strikes over having to work a whole 40 hours a week and not being able to retire before age 50, tho.

I hope that the push for universal health care involves salaried doctors, tort reform, strict medical supply/device regulation, and pharmaceutical restructuring. That's where the real costs are, and I believe the Dems could bring far more Reps on-board if they would gore their own oxen.

If Universal Healthcare is the goal, why not make Medicaid for All?

By the way: convert two-thirds of the the Department of Education overhead into in-service teachers.

Hi there ! I'm from the Maine Dept. of Education and I'm here to help. ( sounds all to familiar )

" I guarantee that I can fix all the money problems in education as long as it doesn't effect my salary and benefits."

seeker I found it difficult to believe that your experience with teachers was so negative. Seldom have I read a more generalized slander on a whole group of people. I had to re-read your post to be sure you were not joking, then I saw it. the tell-tale sign of bitterness and resentment "I was married to a teacher" Now I have it. I can't say anything nice about my ex either!

Snyder, you pantload, seeker's comments were the understatement of the year, so far.

11:25 muguet You said "they are failing to consider all of the private expenditures universal healthcare would eliminate, freeing up capital and income to grow the real economy."

You demonstrate a basic lack of understanding of economics. Universal health care as proposed does nothing to control costs but actually increases total expenditures. All you are doing is cost shifting, changing which pocket you take the money from. Instead of those private expenditures you deplore you wi

11:25 muguet You said "they are failing to consider all of the private expenditures universal healthcare would eliminate, freeing up capital and income to grow the real economy."

You demonstrate a basic lack of understanding of economics. Universal health care as proposed does nothing to control costs but actually increases total expenditures. All you are doing is cost shifting, changing which pocket you take the money from. Instead of those private expenditures you deplore you will be paying the same or even more in taxes, either direct or hidden. In case you haven't read the bill, you are still responsible for co-pays and deductibles. And the government subsidy for health insurance only applies to the basic level of coverage. And that basic level is only expected to pay somewhere around 70% of health care expenses. A true single payer system would require even higher taxes and fees to cover that other 30%. THERE IS NO FREE LUNCH.

As for teachers being considered professionals. Most are actually salaried unionized employees. They want to be considered professionals then they should start acting more like professionals. Of all the teachers I have known or worked with only about 20% have come anywhere near acting and performing as professionals. Comparing professions is like comparing dogs. Are you saying that anyone who gets a degree should all be paid the same. Different professions require different skill and knowledge sets. Those skill and knowledge sets that are more difficult or rare are paid more. It's that simple. Frankly, what it takes to be a good teacher is not that rare of a skill set. And has a limited correlation with education level. Worst teacher I ever had was the head of his department at the university. Couldn't teach worth a damn. After the first class over half of the class, (including myself), tried to switch classes. We were told we would not be allowed to switch to another professor because he was head of the department and was required to teach a certain number of hours a week.

My advise is quit teaching if it's all that much of an over worked underpaid job. I do know too many parents expect teachers to raise their kids, that way if the kids turns out to be a last winner it's the schools fault.

I also don't know if the "average" pay mentioned above just applies to teaching if not I can tell you thats b.s.

And so, right here, these are the queues we give children. "Teachers are just big whiners, they don't act like professionals, they're lazy and get too much vacation time. Those who can't do, teach!" Then we expect the children to respect their teachers when their parents and society don't? We trust teachers enough to teach our kids, the next generation, our future leaders, but we not enough to give them a decent amount of respect.

seeker: you're right. Most teachers are unionized employees. And they have a very strong union which, despite its protestations, is NOT thinking about "the children" first---it's a labor organization advocating for its members first.

You can tell what their real focus by their reaction to programs that bring industry people to become teachers. People with real-world experience and expertise who don't subscribe to the divine pedagogy...heaven forbid.

(1997 graduate of the UMO education program)

seeker @ 12:48: I support universal healthcare, either Medicare for all, or a strong, sensible regulatory framework in which private insurers operate. The bill at hand doesn't even come close to that, but is more of a revenue machine for corporate insurers. As for cost-shifting, the status-quo does that in spades. Citizens of other countries achieve universal care and have eliminated medical bankuptcy for far less than we pay, especially when all of the externalities are included. Furthermore, a tax is limited to a percentage of income that is lower than that consumed by inadequate insurance "products" for which there is no upper limit. How bizarre that those of us who want a system like those seen around the world, cheaper and better, are deemed in pursuit of a free lunch. In truth, Corporate America is eating OUR lunch, and will resort to ridiculous fear tactics in order to continue. That anyone with a college degree should be paid the same is just silly, and teachers who do not behave professionally can and should undergo due termination processes. Truth is, that would narrow the field for too many school board members who prefer to pass over experienced, proven and expensive teachers for inexperienced, recent graduates at the bottom of the scale. There are bad apples in every profession, and yes, I said profession. They should not diminish the status of those who behave as consummate professionals. Many of these are paid well under the average stated here.

GMouffette Most of us do not have either the money or are in a position to send our children to a private school of our choice. We are forced by law to turn our children over to teachers and an education system we can no longer trust. Effectively a monopoly.

Teachers used to earn our respect. But along with the rise of teachers unions, state involvement, and increased federal involvement has come increased failure to teach many children even the basics. Blame enough to be laid at everyone's feet, including the parents. When we see failure to preform, union protection of incompetence, refusal to even admit there are failures, and actual efforts to limit or even deny us choice then one of the results is loss of respect.

Most teachers I have met are good, well meaning people. That has nothing to do with their competence or suitability to be teachers. Too many people confuse one with the other.

Oh, in the interests of full-disclosure: I am married to teacher, yes -- one who not only behaves as a consummate professional, but also one who recently came from another field and brings his wealth of "real world" experience to the classroom AND, is an avid student himself of pedagogy, in order that he may effectively convey his rich lessons. His union's function is to advocate for teachers, and ensure fairness and due process. That teachers should be expected to take a vow of poverty, or accept whatever standard of living is visioned by those posting here is hardly the position of child advocacy.

muguet: I am a strong advocate of better pay for teachers...and more teachers in the classroom! I am for fewer (but not zero) bright ideas from Washington, more local control of schools and curricula, smaller administration, and tighter behavioral standards for students.

"Teachers used to earn our respect. But along with the rise of teachers unions, state involvement, and increased federal involvement has come increased failure to teach many children even the basics."

So, teachers don't deserve our respect because they've unionized and because they follow state/federal guidelines? And then private school teachers are better because they get paid more and aren't given the extra task and difficulty of following state/federal regulations? I'm not following that logic.

2:23 muguet I'm glad to hear that your spouse is a teacher who came to teaching from another field. A large percentage of the teachers I have come to respect were also in another field first. I think that real world experience does more for creating a great teacher than most of the "education" classes required in college. But I also believe that the more he studies pedagogy the more mediocre will his teaching become.

Many of my friends have told me I would make a great teacher. However, I am smart enough to realize I would last about a week with the administration bulls--t and the union crap.

The union's function is to make sure it is next to impossible to lose his job and to extort money from taxpayers. I learned a long time ago that if a work situation is poor you are better off leaving and finding a place where you fit in better. The union may help you keep your job but that doesn't mean the workplace will be good. Lots of ways for a boss, (administrator), who doesn't like you to make life miserable within the rules. (If that happens at more than a couple of jobs then you should really look at if it is you who are the problem rather than the workplace.)

Your husband chose to be a teacher. Nobody forced him to. Like it or not he can only receive as much pay as the community can afford to pay. If he doesn't like that then he should go back to whatever he did before.

I don't know figures for Maine, but nationally all too many teachers of math and the sciences have minimal or insufficient education in the subjects they are supposed to teach (well). So far no critical commments on no value to advance degrees, but if those advanced degrees involve more subject material, such endeavors should be rewarded. Properly run (if that is possible), I think the five-year incremental step policy is a good idea.

Oh yes, most of the teachers I'm aquainted with are excellent and are providing a good education.

3:12 GMouffette The ever lowering performance of our schools has happened coincidentally with the rise of unions and state and federal interference in schools. You draw whatever conclusions you want from that data. Or you can put your head in the sand and ignore it or just pretend the facts don't exist.

Just maybe if there were fewer state and federal regulations and more local control the schools might accomplish more. Funny, but both charter and private schools have less interference and better results.

Actually, most private school teachers make less that their public counterparts. It might have something to do with caring more. Or maybe it's because if they do not perform they lose their jobs.

You might understand my posts better if you refrained from making connections and inferences that neither exist nor are implied.

I think it is important to note that largest absorbtion of funds in the education system does not come from the teachers' salaries. In fact, teachers encompass less than half of the staff of an institution.

4:05 Gopher You said "most of the teachers I'm acquainted with are excellent and are providing a good education"

Funny, but almost everyone says that about the school their kids go to even when that school does horribly when compared to others. Something to think about....

@seeker

It seems to me that you blame teachers for problems they are, in many ways, not responsible for. They do not write/create the legislation on school regulations. You're using them as a scapegoat for all the problems in the system. That's cowardly and pathetic. Not to mention you've been incredibly rude in sharing your opinions. Have a good day, I won't be replying again.

Seems that teachers salaries were the largest single item in my school districts budget.

GMouffette I believe that if you read all my posts on this subject you would find that I lay the blame across everyone's feet. parents, administrators, unions, state and federal regulations, and lastly, teachers. The reason they have been picked on the most in this thread is because, (surprise !), the editorial is about teachers and their pay. Give me an editorial about state and federal regulations and my contribution will be quite different. They are not a scapegoat since they are only a small part of the problem. But they ARE a part of the problem and I for one am tired of them not accepting any share of the blame. And they happen to be in the best position of everyone involved to demand changes in regulations and policies that would make real differences in educational results.

Sorry you think I'm rude in sharing my opinions. I think you are thin skinned. So what. I'm tired of the way you libs try to be all PC and nice and not hurt anyone's feelings. I believe in stating my beliefs and thoughts honestly and with adults I don't believe in sugar coating either the truth or my opinions.

I wouldn't have been as "rude" if you had not deliberately misstated my position and points in an effort to marginalize those points. I don't even mind that you made a personal attack by calling me cowardly and pathetic. If I am going to stick my opinion on here then I better have big enough shoulders to take the heat. LOL ( BDN, PLEASE DON'T REMOVE HIS POST FOR BREAKING THE "RULES" )

I work in Education. That said, here are my thoughts:

#1) there are good teachers and bad teachers just like there are good bank tellers and bad bank tellers or cashiers, etc.

#2) School administration CERTAINLY CAN FIRE TEACHERS. Teachers have a 2 year probationary contract. If they survive that (some do, some don't for a variety of reasons, not always for being a "bad" teacher). If a teacher survives that period, they have a continuing contract. After that a teacher can be terminated. There is a process, and it certainly is not "next to impossible." What might be next to impossible is getting school administration to actually take the time, do the documentation, etc to make this happen.

#3) I do believe, overall, teachers are underpaid. However, I also acknowledge many (especially those who have not worked in the "real world") have some very interesting views and can, many times, feel entitled. As in any other profession, all of us can be replaced. If I left my school after this year, they could find somebody to fill the position, no disillusionment here.

#4) As for standards, and I would say they are certainly lower than when I graduated HS over 20 years ago. I don't blame that necessarily on teachers. I blame it on society, and when I was in school, parents supported schools and teachers. Now, you deal with parents who blame everybody but themselves or their child for their low grades.

#5) Certainly teacher salaries make up the largest chunk of a school budget....OFCOURSE IT DOES. Teacher salaries by district can be found (takes some digging but they are there) on the MEA's website (Maine education assoc). The salary ranges from district to district can be quite large. I don't necessarily think that is fair, and that is why school districts who pay higher salaries may enjoy larger applicant pools for their positions. THIS should allow for higher better teachers than those districts who do not pay as well. That is an investment in education that each town makes. How that works out for each town idepends on how that school district hires (and fires if and when necessary).

Health care costs are the really crazy part of teacher benefits, as those costs have gone through the roof.

I am a big believer in education, and I have no problem with teachers getting more pay for getting more education (which also goes toward recertification as required by the state).

Yes, teachers have quite a bit of time off, which they certainly should not be complaining about.

My feelings on the many differing opinions on teacher salaries:

Some believe anybody can do it (well, many can, but trust me, being an outstanding teacher is not easy). Some believe that it can't be too hard, we all went through school, right? Well, given the attitudes of some kids and parents these days, it can be very challenging..

Some may be envious of the good working conditions (schedule, time off, benefits), and to those I say, if you wanted to teach and enjoy those benefits, you would have. If you did not get a college degree as required to teach, go back and get one.

Some have had poor experiences with teachers and have a jaded view of them....hard to fight that. I deal with parents who will badmouth teachers, and I know those teachers are doing more than they should have to to help students. Some people simply cannot be pleased unless their kid is simply given good grades.....those parents are out there.

Again, there are good teachers and bad teachers as there are bad employees in any other profession. I would not paint them all with the same brush any more than I would police officers, bank presidents, social workers, town managers, etc.

Also, don't believe the myth that it is "virtually impossible" to fire teachers. It is not, regardless of how many years they have been teaching.

5:18 tjones4 Great and fairly well balanced comment on this topic. I may disagree with you on some points but with as realistic and open minded attitude as you have I believe it would be a pleasure to sit down with you and discuss the issues.

You are right, it is possible to fire a teacher. But it is very difficult and in many cases takes so much administrative time and is so expensive that it only actually happens with the worst of the worst. Many times efforts are made to just get the teacher to move on to another school district rather than deal with the problem. In the private sector you work at will and can be terminated when ever necessary. For cause, economic downturn, or simply you aren't doing the job.

seeker @3:55

Neither I nor my husband complain about his chosen career. My input is intended to enlighten, as, also raised by education professionals, the ignorance I have encountered here is nothing new.

Seeker thanks for the kind words...I think I see things pretty clearly. I will say this about firing in companies, yes some (maybe most still) can just fire on the spot, but many companies still have quite a process to go through, much documentation, warnings, etc.

A good local teacher's union should work with administration to improve instruction. If that calls for a teacher to be fired, they should support it (and some do). Also, if a district fires 1 bad teacher, many others in that district or school may fall into line. I think what makes it seem difficult to fire tenured teachers is the fact that most administrators have little or no experience doing so. If they did it more often, the process would become easier (just like practicing any behavior makes it easier). Yes, some districts will sandbag other districts with their poor teachers. It is unfortunate, but it does happen. Economic downturn can certainly result in teachers losing their jobs (and it will happen in many districts next summer). However, the part of that is when a teacher is "RIFed....reduction in force), it is usually clearly stated in the contract how it is determined as to WHO loses their job....it could be simply based on seniority....it shouldn't be but could be. Other districts could look at seniority, level of education, evaluations, etc.

Remember getting rid of the "worst of the worst" will still make other teachers fall in line. Once they see administration serious about improving the school and getting rid of people who should not or really do not want to be there, things will get better.

4:08 PM, seeker, making broad statements is not presenting "data." You need to state your sources if you want to be taken seriously and not just links to other broad statements. We now measure everything so real "data" is available.

While we get rid of the "worst" teachers, what will we do with the "worst children"? -Keep them home. Not everyone is an Einstein. It is amazing that schools do as well as they do given the children who show up at the door, with as few resources as they have. The Maine Heritage group has a political agenda and is seeking to draw money away from social needs in the state in order to cut taxes. -So they attack schools and teachers.

This is the kind of nationwide movement that brought us No Child Left Behind - a fiasco.

Agreed there are good and bad teachers, also agreed, should you want this spa like job, get the degrees needed to perform the job, let's talk about the cost of that when we look at what teachers are paid. Also, teachers are fired every day, the tenure process is tough and there are external requirements that really don't let anyone teach, you have to jump through a lot of educational hoops. My point is this, teaching is a rewarding job for the majority of those who choose it, I know of a few who look at their jobs as entitlements but most just bang it out week after week. Here is my best example this week. A kindergarten teacher that I work with has a tough class, students who do not fit into the process she calls her cirriculum, she has 20 years of experience. One boy, Derek, lost his father suddenly this fall. She was 24 five year olds that require teaching every day, she just does not have the resources to deal with this boy who started out with an IEP, with supports, with lots of related services, before this tragedy. She has called 15 meetings with every person who will attend and can help, she has stretched services she already receives to meet his needs, she stays at school later to meet with his family, she attends conferences on her breaks dealing with students with emotional handicaps, ADHD, grief. She pulls and pushes on the system to bleed our help for this boy. She is a typical teacher in my school, she is insulted by comments about how hard she is working for him and he is not her most challenging student. I would suggest that she deserves her salary and a pat on the back, not questions about her working days or the ability to fire substandard teachers. I say let's celebrate these brave souls that choose this as their life work.