I read parts of the report concerning Maine this morning. Significant criticisms were made of Maines system that were not mentioned in your article. Try un-licensed.teachers who are not certified may teach up to three years... How about there is no public disclosure regarding teacher abscence and teacher turnover rate in the schools. (Two of my childs school years were made more difficult by the coming and going of teachers) Teachers student records of classroom work may not match "official records". There were numerous criticisms that the State of Maine had the opportunity to respond to but chose not to. To blow off these and other criticisms because "Maine and New England are fairly independently minded places" is disingenuous and sounds a bit like union butt covering. It also implies that other states are less independant. I think they might disagree.

If the public schools were to dump all the incompetent teachers, class size would jump to about 150 pupils per instructor.

I had that problem when I went to school. Granted I went to Foxcroft Academy and it was somewhat a PRIVATE school but accepted public students and funding.

SeDumbMoCha

here's another fine example. I went there and it seemed like every year I was there (for 3 years) we'd have a new band teacher, and a whole new curriculum from which I learned dick.

JWBooth, What if the school system had a method of weeding out the poor teachers and rewarding the good ones... Do you think that might work? As it stands Maine doesnt do very well at that.

Oh like the fact at Foxcroft Academy where coach withee is a math teacher and I doubt he knows much about an algebraic equation much outside a teacher book

Isn't this the time when the Bangor Enquirer prints the salaries of the State government officials involved and asks why they get paid so much for such poor results?

Maybe Baldacci should take a pay cut too since he is ultimately responsible.

Oh wait, BDN loves Baldacci.

More shoddy slanted reporting meant to gloss over the State gov't failures.

As a former teacher, I can tell you that this goes both ways. In small communities, student grades can often be determined more by the student’s last name, as opposed to effort or product. Along with bad teachers, we need to tackle bad administrators, and the parents that strong arm teachers into fixing grades. It seems that the motto of “Education as a first priority” is lost as soon as the student becomes an athlete, or the parents complaints about teachers raising low expectations.

One school system I worked in made it a policy to keep teacher turnaround high, despite the fact that there were only four of us dedicated on the high school level. (art, phys. Ed and many other teachers worked pk-12)

Blaming the teachers is like finding a car that has been totaled due to a horrific accident, putting four new tiers on it, and shoving it on to the road.

No one is blaming the teachers. It the system of inconsistent or non-existant, oversight and methodology is the problem. If poor supervision is systematic then the responsibilty lies in Augusta at the doorstep of The State Department Of Education. Teachers must be paid and compensated based on thier abilities training and education ...not because of how long they have been a tteacher in the state system. A teacher can get 100% of retirement benefits at the age of 47. (provided they started teaching at the age of 22) That is disgraceful and wasteful of state resources.

My third grader has a teacher so bad that she'd be taken to the edge of town and dropped off if the public had any understanding about her whole story. I'm sick of the the teacher's union having such a stronghold on what happens in our schools - it's time for that to change. Though, the antique school department in Bangor is not likely to facilitate any change like that.

Two points..... 1) someone here doesn't know how the MSRS works for teachers.......you need to do some research.

2) as a retired teacher this report reveals a fact known for years...but it doesn't show a concern for the incompetent administrators doing

doing the evaluating.

Of course teachers are lousy in Maine, they get paid crap. Smart people will work were they can earn a good salary.

BadGolfer, I lifted the 47 year old figure from this report. Go to nctq.org and read it for yourself.

The problem the report sites with teacher evaluations is that there is no system in place. The evaluations methods vary widely from school to school when used at all.

This should come as no surprise. The MEA (Maine Educators Association) has enjoyed itself under Gov. Baldacci's reign - that organization has had unprecedented power with his administration. Unfortunately, they are concerned more with workplace issues than improving our public education system.

We need to start with the colleges and universities and make the teacher education programs more rigorous. We have to change the way teachers are paid - yes that may mean paying them even more, but we should also require them to work YEAR ROUND. Even if the students are not in school.

Check with your local superintendent and ask how many sick days teachers get in the contract. 15 days per year is the norm. Do you get 15 sick days per year? I certainly don't and you can bet most use every one of them too.

I'm so glad this article was printed!I have a child in middle school and I have been shocked by the lack of teacher quality. When I followed up with administration about my concerns I was told that there aren't any annual evaluations of teachers and there was nothing they could do about it because of union contracts. After the first 3 years, a teacher is evaluated by an administrator who sits in on a class (usually once). Students evaluate teachers every year, but only the teacher is allowed to view the results, administration is barred from seeing the evaluations!!! Is it any surprise that Bangor has a closed door policy to parents wanting to view their child's classroom?

Additionally, we as parents need to be aware that the grades our students receive are NOT an indication of the quality of instruction they are receiving. Our child is a straight A student, but the amount of quality content they have received this year could have been delivered within a month's worth of classroom time. Some classes have yet to provide ANY noteworthy content.

Finally, the disappointed parents I have spoken with are discouraged and find it difficult to be heard by the schools. Administration supports the teacher and their programs and parents are fearful, often rightfully so, of possible backlash. When the parents do finally talk to someone about their concerns, issues are swept under the rug, often sighting unions, state and national classroom requirements and/or mandatory testing. The results of such meetings are discouraging and it is rare that anything changes. HOWEVER, I have found a tool that gets administration to listen - the state standards for education. Find them online, read them and compare what is happening in your school to the requirements. What you will find is a giant gap. The standards not only talk about the content of what should be covered, but also the methods and teaching goals for each discipline.

It's a shame that the state leaders don't even recognize that teacher evaluations are a problem, it's an indication that we (the parents) have not been vocal enough about the issues we are seeing. Parents - don't take this issue lightly, if you get a response that does not satisfy you, take it to the next level, build support and do not stop!!

As a parent I am not going to let this issue die within my school district.

vichet, have you talked to any Maine state retired teacher's & asked how our system works?

What do you mean by 100% of benefits...........money, insurance, etc.?

Are you aware of the formula to calculate Maine Teacher's retirement.........years of service, penalties for retiring before designated age?

Just one fact.........to receive 100% of pay, a teacher would have to work 50 years...........

I did try to go to nctq.org but the computer I'm using "at work" is slow. Yes, I went back to work because my teacher's retirement is cutting it.

Sorry..I meant to write "isn't cutting it".

I am not sure what is the answer to this problem but I know there are great teachers, good teachers and bad teachers in Maine as in any state. I think that the school system needs to be more responsive to parents concerns. When one of my children was in middle school there was a teacher that had such a bad reputation when my son had problems with her (she called him stupid in front of the class- he was not the first student she did that to) I couldn't get him transfered. The princepal told me "if we transfered all the student's out of her class that had problems with her noone would be in her classroom" I think that is way past the time to consider doing something about her.

On the other had I have grandchildren in a small school on the coast of Maine and find that all the teacher's and support staff and administration are 110% there for the kids. I wish all of our schools and teachers could be like at this school. My daughter will not consider moving because she doesn't want to change her children out of this school system.

"Maybe Baldacci should take a pay cut too since he is ultimately responsible."

--Rick32

Maybe Baldacci should pay the state for the privilege of being Governor.

Yeah Ed Techs with barely a high school education in charge of entire classes. The Maine Department of Education should be VERY concerned by this and so should the parents of the children in these schools. The worst type of school system is where municipalities have local control over these issues. Because people that have only known that way are only going to vote that way and nothing every changes for the better. A teacher has a good idea or assigns daily homework, they get fired. Seneca you are so absolutely right, I couldn't have said that any better. Administrators in positions without having any experience and the ones with experience are not with the times because they don't want more work. These schools get used to being called the best in their district when they are no where near as good as the schools I went to 25 years ago. Damn shame is what it is too because the brightest students could have been so much more. The problem is that only the citizens can change this and if they are not educated enough to know how bad their "perfect" school is then it will never ever change. Why do you think so often when kids move here from away the teachers want them to skip grades? The minute one of these schools gets a real teacher who questions certain policies out the door they go.

"Although a national group has given Maine a failing grade in the way it retains good teachers and removes the bad ones, the state Department of Education is hardly concerned." This is why we have such a high rate of children NOT graduating from High School... It is NO BIG DEAL.... no concern... just let them fail and live off the system!

BadGolfer ... Get back to me when you have time to read that part of the report. Tell me how either interpreted thier data incorrectly or they did... I'd write em a note for slander if it is incorrect.

BadGolfer ... Get back to me when you have time to read that part of the report. Tell me how either interpreted thier data incorrectly or they did... I'd write em a note for slander if it is incorrect.

sorry for the double post..

It's a combination of problems. The break up of the family is also a big part of the problem. Discipline problems is one of the major problems in the school systems. Some kids have no discipline at home and act out in school. They go to bed too late go to school tired and are disruptive in class. Then you have kids who are hyperactive. Parents don't have the time to spend each day to make sure they are on track with school work.

Most of the high schools prepare the kids for college. The courses they offer some kids just can't do or don't want to do. And they'll never use them. Few high schools offer courses in the trades which I think is wrong. Not everyone is gifted to be an engineer or doctor. These kids get frustrated. When you have a frustrated, bored child you will probably have a disruptive child.

A friend of mine from Australia told me they have a different system. Up till the eight grade all the kids get a basic education. They hold the kids back if they don't meet the standards. Then they give the kids an apptitude test find what they are strong at. They then sit with the kids and find what their interests are. Then they place them in different curriculums according to what they are strong at. It makes alot of sense to me. If you want to be a chef you won't have to take calculus or advanced literature.

Went to the nctq.org site & couldn't find anything that addressed teacher retirement.

Something else that needs to be evaluated...........many teachers need to take on part-time jobs.......they pay into Social Security & earn their 40 credits.........they retire and receive 40% of what they have contributed because they also receive Maine State Retirement. They are penalized 60%........

Some may call this "double dipping" but the individual worked 2 jobs to make ends meet.

I agree with Nanax7. Before retiring I was a high school English department chairman/teacher in Maine and New Hampshire for thirty years.

Teachers in Maine and New Hampshire are the finest in the country. They are dancing as fast as they can preparing their lessons, wiping noses, mediating student conflicts, attending endless committee meetings, watching the kids on the playground, paying for supplies out of their own pockets, grading papers, motivating, encouraging, and educating our young people. Let’s support them in that effort. Let’s make sure that we are doing the best we can for our young people.

One of the best things that be done is for that ridiculous Leave No Child Behind program and the waste of time state testing programs be ended today. The teacher is the classroom is the best evaluator of student's progress. State mandated testing is always unreliable and irrelevant.

There is a 220 page document covering the overall report and it lists that sort of data as a comparison with other states. There is also a 100+ page specfic to Maine. Check both reports. Teacher do need to be paid better with salaries commensurate with thier education and evaluations, not thier tenure status and longevity. This will have the effect of bringing in good teachers but you cant do that until standards and evaluation procedures are in place. There are none and the Maine DOE sems to be disinterested in setting one up . As it stands poor teachers benefit and good teachers subsidize the rest. I took the time to look up the retirement chart for you. It is figure 46 on page 99 of the National Summary.

Rev, As long as we continue to harbor teachers who think it is reasonable to hold discussion on the art of swearing (best left to me) for my middle schooler. Protect teachers from scutiny by parents when the teacher is diciplined for wrongdoing (state law). When the teacher is held to little or no defined evaluation procedure and standard, why on earth should we as parents trust the judgement of a teacher to evaluate our children?

On the news it said the AVERAGE for the USA was a D...so F isn't all that bad. I think most teachers do a wonderful job, and maybe the reason not all of the lame ones are weeded out properly is that there is a shortage of teachers? I know one thing teachers have to put up with alot these days, having problematic students that should be in "special" classrooms not in with the regular students. I see it in my childs class, even though there is a one on one person with them every moment, they are still maxing out the teachers patience and disrepectfully disrupting to the whole class. Eventually turns sweet new out of college young teachers into bitter stressed out wrecks...then our state gets graded an F!

OK........vichet, I found the figure you mentioned.

That only gives the earliest age at which a teacher may retire. If a person retired @ 47, they would not be receiving a full retirement.......far from it.

The formula for Maine teacher's retirement goes like this---the base pay is the average of a teacher's 3 highest years of salary-------that amount is divided by the number of years in teaching over 50 (a 22yr career would mean 22/50 X 3year/avg)......now that amount is also adjusted for every year a person retires before their designated retirement age........say this 47 yr olds' designated retirement age was 60, that's 13 years X a %/yr from the 22/50 X3yr/avg

amount. It doesn't leave much especially if one has to purchase their own insurance. That in a nut-shell is how MSRS works for teachers. It stinks.

If you know a retired teacher, I'd suggest to talk to them.

LincolnMOM, They are not weeded out because there is not a evaluation process to determine who is a good teacher and who is a bad one.

I come from a family of teachers... and they DO NOT get 100% of their pay in retirement. If they worked another job and are able to collect Social Security, they are allowed only 40% of their Social Security earnings... they loose the other 60%. In other words... they are penalized.. because that's the law... Maine State Retirement System came up with this 'formula" several years ago.

Trust me... they don't have it easy... another case of: Walk a mile in their shoes. I do have to say that no matter what area of work you look at... there are slackers! If you are concerned... start going to the school board meetings and make your feelings known.

.

Thanks for the input and the formula. I know a retired super who pulls in 100k .. not exactly teacher wages.... I was struck by the 600k+ figure on average paid to ex-teachers before they reach age 60.

There's always the option of home schooling.................try that on nay-sayers.

Bad Golfer is 100% right about how MSRS works and yes... it stinks big time!!

I'm assuming that the 600K+ amount is for ALL teachers in the state before 60.

Think about that......if 1 retired superintendent is pulling in 100K..............

Yes BadGolfer, (I like your name) that number is the average according to this data. ... This part of the discussion may be part of the solution... but for me the issue is teacher accountabilty.. From my childs middle school experience it seems like I am entrusting their care to a disfucntional family when i send them out the door in the morning. Swearing and vulgarity is OK, a teacher can tell a proud ADDH child he was a moron. These cannot be the cream of the crop teachers... and it appears they are everywhere and there is no one to hold them to some standard.

Someone in all of this discussion mentioned the breakdown of the family and poor parenting..............

I went to a conference year's ago and the speaker said..........." you know you can't get a Clydesdale from two Shetlands"..........

And vichet ......I say again leadership.........if those examples are happening....shame on the leadership...........administrators need to have their feet held to the fire for not having the fortitude to deal with these cases. If the protocol is being followed and consistent leadership will work.

They are making the big bucks and need to be help more accountable ............

It is very interesting that the mouth piece for the DOE, David Connerty-Marin, says that the group doing the report doesn't "want the locals having control of their schools." Gee, on that they agree with the Baldacci administration and the DOE, who pushed through school consolidation, thereby stripping local communities of that local control, that Mr. Connerty-Marin speaks so fondly of.

its no wonder maine gets an FFFFFFFFFFFFF didnt we just read an article that said parents have no right to observe the class..???? we have some wonderful teachers and some that should GO

Although I understand the frusteration parents have with their children recieving what they feel is less than adequate eductaion, I have to ask why aren't you doing anything about it? Are parents are you talking with the student(s), the teachers, principals, administrators, school boards, DOE, even the Govenor? Or are you all just wondering why it is the way it is? Change does not come about by typing a comment in the BDN, it comes about by being active and getting involved. If you do not like the policy, figure out how to get it changed. As a graduate of a small town school in Maine I know first hand how incomplete the education is in most Maine schools and I can guarantee that my children will not suffer because there is a lack of funding, materials or good teachers. Let's not forget that we are the parents, and these children are our responsibility. If you do not like something change it! There is no law that states your child has to go to a public school. In about 10 minutes time you can have your child removed from you local school district and either place them in private school or you can homeschool them. Yes, I know that there are financial considerations to be made, but what value can you truly place on your child's education??

Educating our youth today is a challenging balancing act. It encompasses the students, teachers, school staff and parents being involved. Educators and parents a like must balance the best interest of the children involved along with their budgets and abilities. At the center of it all however, is not only the student, but the survival of our state and our way of life. Maine is rich with a history of logging, farming and fishing but we also have many other resources to add to this country and the world at large. If we are to continue to thrive and contribute to society in a meaningful and productive way we need to ensure that our children are educated to the best of our ability. We can only truly measure our success as parents and educators by the success of our students and children; and we can only continue to enjoy a rich and fulfilling life if we continue to educate generation after generation.

Remember, to fail to educate our children is the equivalent of educating them to fail.

I sent my all "A" child to an out-of-state college and found that what she had learned in 4 years at our high school was only good for about 1 month. There were a lot of privately schooled children there and they, according to my daughter, were far more knowledgable than her. She graduated in 4 years but she had to do a lot of studying to keep up and had to accept a GPA of a b. I have another child that has a learning disability and needs to use a calculator and requires extra time to do assignments and tests as she processes things slower than her counterparts. I cannot explain in this small space the struggle I have had trying to get ALL her teachers on the same page. It certainly wears a parent down!! One person here said to go to the school board. What a joke. They obviously have never done this before. I witnessed parents who stood up during public participation time to tell the board that their child got beat up so bad in the hallway of the high school that they had to take him to the hospital. The school board just sat there stone-faced. When the parents were finished the chairman of the board said, "Thank you"! Nothing was addressed nor was there any apology. They were clearly upset but no one, NO ONE, went to their aid. I do not worry about the lose of local control because local control is not working here!!