Feb.12, 2009 Letters to the Editor

Under "The Arts", I got tripped up reading "the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act". What is it they say about lipstick on a pig? It's still PORK.

The most serious danger facing our country is ignorance, and those thinking that the government should grow and take care of me. This has been tried many times. It always fails.

My Republican grandfather, near the end of his life, said, "I railed against FDR for Social Security, and I railed against LBJ for Medicare, and now here I am, living on Social Security and Medicare." The so-called Socialist programs intitiated by two Democratic presidents made his last years much more comfortable. Market-driven health insurance kicks people out on the streets while insurance company CEOs pocket millions. It's time for the righties, who were trounced in November, to shut up.

Well said Hankwilliams. The Bush era is finally overl - let's cool it with all of the squawking about WMD in Iraq (false), 9/11 and illegal workers. How about we start trying to fix the mess we're in, care for our people and repair our relationships with the world?

Well said Hankwilliams. The Bush era is finally overl - let's cool it with all of the squawking about WMD in Iraq (false), 9/11 and illegal workers. How about we start trying to fix the mess we're in, care for our people and repair our relationships with the world?

Listen to the pigs squeal as they waddle up to the trough !!

So, howbri, you've never needed government assistance for anything? You can pay all your medical bills in a timely fashion? And ladyslipper, people who live in countries with universal health care have longer life expectancies than Americans. But heaven forbid the government tell some rich wife to wait for her facelift so an average person can get needed medical attention.

good morning all. well I just got home after 12 days in the hospital with no insurance....no maine care no nothing we make to much for me to qualify for maine care but can't afford the 600.00 a month for insurance...the cost of my stay will be about 25,000.00 I don't want free insurance I want affordable...and to those of you who don't like the stimulus...what would you do cut taxes? nobodies working to give tax a cut to...get people working again then cut taxes...it's a no brainah you have to invest to make money...we are investing in this country right now...and I'll bet we'll make money in the long run..

ladyslipper, by your metrics of popular vote, Al Gore beat George Bush by 48.4% to 47.9% and an electoral vote of 271 to 266, which if you check the Constitution determines who is elected. President Obama beat McCain by 365 to 173. That is over 68% of the only vote that counted. Even in high school basketball a score of 68 to 32 that would be a "drubbing." You don't get the chance to spin it both ways.

Searoses, sorry to hear about your illness, I hope your doing better.

hankwilliams: We know our new President won handily. The other party can basically only count on the south, and even there it wasn't what they expected (even Texas was closer than expected....not as Republican as in the past.)

and yes, hankwilliams: Well said!

searoses: Hope you are doing better. And you put a "real face" on the reality of what the situation is with healthcare. Some of the naysayers just want to whine (their Palin/McCain did not win, don't you know!!)

chaucer: Great name(yours). Yes, quite a drubbing, wasn't it?!!!

Chaucer, The electoral college as I am sure you know, was only created to give small state equal say with big states. To change it to a percentage doesn't match correct figures. Fact is slightly orver half the people that voted chose Obama. He won , and good for him, and he won comfortable in the college, but for a drubbing you would have to look back to Reagan.

Yes, he did win comfortably in the electoral college vote.......undeniable.

Hi searoses, happy to see you back. missed you. sorry about your illness and hope you're feeling better! so set up a payment plan with the hospital, at least there's that option. Do you remember Forest Gump when he was told he was a billionaire? "One less thing to worry about."

If you have nothing more then talking points and such don't bother answering this question. I just read a lot of posts by people about the wonderful things that will now happen because of this stimulus bill. I even read people saying praise God it passed. I am asking what you all see coming that I am missing. I try to read as much about it as I can, and I have yet to read something about it where I say there, that will help me soon. And I am not saying lets do nothing or that there isn't a problem. Times are getting tougher for lots of folks. I just wonder what parts you guys have read that makes you want to praise God. I get that we are spending a lot of money, but from all that I have been reading about Japan, just spending tons of money didn't work for them. I was also under the impression that credit issues are the crux of the problem. I am sure I even heard President Obama say credit was the core issue. What does spending do to help credit? And I am not taking the party line that all you need is tax cuts. I never remember getting a tax cut big enough that I said there my life is better now. I am just asking for what specific things you guys know about the bill that you can say there THIS will help me, or Maine? Not just general switching from blue collar to green collar fluff. What hunk of that money, and we are talking about a lot of hunks, what hunk of that money being spent will directly help us here?

hankwilliams and bangorian, you are what is wrong with america. FDR and his socialist programs did NOT get us out of the Great Depression. WWII did. This spending bill will not get us of the recession. How does $650 million for analog to digital TV converters help? And how long are you guys going to play the Bush card? Bush, while no fiscal conservative, did not cause our current situation. (and have you forgotten that the Dems supported going to war) It was the collapse of Freddie and Fannie - both of which Bush tried to regulate no fewer than 12 times - only to be defeated by the likes of Barney Frank and Chris Dodd. Go back and listen to the hearings from as recently as 2006 when the Republicans were sounding the horn while Frank and Dodd were telling everyone that these institutions were on solid financial standings. And while the greed on Wall St certainly contributed, greed has no party affiliation.

And forget the illegal aliens? You don't think they have contributed to our collapse? We spend, on various programs, more than $338 billion a year on illegal aliens. I'm in Houston and suspect I have a much better feel for the impact they have on our country than you do up in Maine.

Bigger govt has never been the answer and never will be. Taking less of Americans money is what allows people to spend. But people like you believe in income redistribution because you are nothing but socialist. Just like your two Senators - Snowe and Collins.

hankwilliams how much easier would the golden years have been for you grandfather if he had the money he paid in to social security and medicare to invest in his younger years? He might have been able to leave more to his family or have taken a couple more vacations or paid for his grandkids college...but we will never know because the federal government decided how much he needed to retire. Don't be fooled...the dems are holding hearings on federalizing 401K's won't that be nice? How many government agencies can you name that don't waste money? That aren't a big ol' joke when it comes right down to it? I am going to tell you I highly doubt that by time I get to the age I can collect social security that there is anything left to give for all the money I have paid in!

hankwilliams I don't know where you get your information from but people who live in countries with universal health care do NOT have longer life expectancies unless they have PRIVATE insurance! The rich will have access to top notch health care and the poor will be receiving substandard care! Go do some research on socialized health care and then tell me all about it! I'll even get you started....try these:

"Smokers, heavy drinkers, the obese and the elderly should be barred from receiving some operations, according to doctors, with most saying the health service cannot afford to provide free care to everyone." from the telegraph their newspaper over there! Go read the whole article! Very interesting! http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1576704/Don%27t-treat-the-old-and-unhealthy%2C-say-doctors.html

here is another good article to read!

The Benefits of “Free” Health Care in England: Early Death

http://tsfiles.wordpress.com/?s=the+benefits+of+free+health+care+in+england+early+death

Jack Rosser’s doctor says taking Pfizer Inc.’s Sutent cancer drug may keep him alive long enough to see his 1-year-old daughter, Emma, enter primary school. The U.K.’s National Health Service says that’s not worth the expense.

Rosser, 57, was told the cost of Sutent, 3,140 pounds ($4,650) per treatment for his advanced kidney cancer, was too high for the NHS — the government agency that funds the nation’s health care.

searoses sorry to hear about your extended stay in the hospital. Most every hospital in Maine will give you an application for 'charity care'. This does not mean FREE it means they will look at your circumstances and decide if you get a reduction on your bill. Call the billing department at the hospital I am sure they will send it out to you.

Saying the New Deal didn't get us out of the Depression is like saying there's no such thing as a government job. In 1933 unemployment was at 25 percent, in 1940 it was at 15 percent, a big improvement. The New Deal started in 1933 which is when the GDP bottomed out. Within three years the GDP was up over the level than it was in 1929. By the time we did eventually get involved in World War II, the GDP had been up every year except for 1937, when FDR started cutting spending. So, the only time FDR wasn`t helping get us out of the Depression was when he was doing what today`s Republicans say should be done.

Jennifer - I believe that Congress is discussing insuring the 401's not nationalizing them. Additionally, We could have taken our Social Security money and invested in the stock market like the last administration wanted. Oops....that would have wiped out a whole lot of people that the government would ultimately have to take care of.

Government is wasteful - noone will argue that. But how many vacations is considered wasteful, how many packs of cigarettes or bags of Dortito's? Every financial guru (both government and private) has said we must save on our own as well.

I do not believe Social Security will become insolvent. But I also believe that it will not be adequate when I retire. So I put my Dorito's and Latte money in a 401 for the future. And if the government wants to insure that that money is safe, I'm all for it.

Random comments about wasteful spending and stupid this and stupid that is not helping. Our congressional leaders need to hear from us. But they need articulate, insightful criticism as well as thoughtful ideas. We can and will turn this country around. Scurrilous rhetoric and name calling only makes us look foolish and ignorant. Collins and Snowe refer to even the most liberal, left-wingers in Congress as "My Friend." We may not all like each other, but a little decorum goes a long way to promote your argument.

I have stowed my soapbox under the seat in front of me and return my seat to its full and upright position. You are now free to argue about the country.

$13 a week? That means Bob and I can now afford Life Insurance policies. Hooray! OMG, we'll be BUYING something with it! Tee hee.

Clarifying, that's an extra $104 for us per month.

Hi searoses - I guess it would be a little insincere to say I missed you, but I do wish you a speedy recovery.

What needs to stop is the Sean Hannity / Ann Coulter tone from the right, equating liberalism with anti-Americanism. What vicious nonsense. We can have a debate about universal health care, but those of us who advocate it are not "what's wrong with America." You conservatives should have the grace to lose an argument occasionally without demonizing those who disagree with you. You lost the national argument in November. So stop claiming that you are the "real" America.

I agree that we as a nation need to become independent. We need to rally behind the people that have been cut down in the last decade: the farmers. We need to make our own foods, our own products. We need to advance to make our industries greener and have more renewable resources in our backyard. Some things we do need to import, but our American jobs have been continuously shipped overseas or over the border and we say "Oh, it's cheaper labor, cheaper fabrication...etc." Now our economic crisis is yelling at us from the corner we shoved it in so our CEO's and our banks could make a buck. Jane, you make sense, and I wish that in the past years everything hadn't been put on the back burner so that we could mass-produce and cut down our local economies. It's going to be sticky, but getting out of this situation is going to take the US standing up and fending for itself. We need to start all over and stop bailing out huge companies and get the jobs and the training down to everyone, even the lower levels.

And Siri Beckman, you make a fine observation as well. In these times,and in other times of crisis, things like the arts lift our emotions and help us out of the ditch we've fallen into. If we lose such precious local economy resources we will just be making it harder on ourselves. The arts should be as important as the huge companies with CEOS who gave themselves 9 figure salaries while the rest of us have to choose whether to heat our homes or buy food for the next couple of weeks.

The New Deal did NOT get us out of the Depression! Did it help? Yes it did but unemployment was still high! The economic woes were NOT behind us when we entered the war. The production of massive amounts of war goods, ships, tanks, arms, ammunition, and warplanes is what got us out of the Depression along with the draft. So massive unemployment and the great depression became a thing of the past! The Great Depression would have lingered for many more years, possibly decades had the US not got involved in the war effort.

If the war got us out of the Depression, why haven't the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq done anything except bleed our economy?

Jennifer, that sounds like Monday morning quarterbacking.

hankwilliams you so sound like the typical liberal throw out the constitution...you know FREEDOM of SPEECH! That is how Hannity feels...it's no worse than Obama trying to scare people in to believing that something major is going to happen if porkulous I mean the stimulus bill doesn't pass THIS week. Isn't it bad enough the Dems whine so much about the conservative talk radio that they are talking about re-introducing the fairness doctrine to shut it down...the only thing they don't have control over? Sad....

anne_of_mdi that would be because there was no production of war ships, tanks etc going on during these wars/conflicts.

anne - you don't think the war got us out of the depression? Wow. The difference between then and now, in a word is "manufacturing". I would also suggest it has done more than bleed our economy. The long term benefits of the war will likely not be realized for years to come. But a stable and democratic Iraq will be priceless in the future.

"The Great Depression would have lingered for many more years, possibly decades had the US not got involved in the war effort."

Heeeeyyyy!

Grrrrrreaaaat idea!

Let's thow another war!

Ok, Jennifer, if the new stimulus plan is the wrong plan what is the right one? kateindfcity seems to have the right attitude, not clearly blaming one side or another, but coming up with a widespread solution. The problem is that corporate America is so out of control (and so in control of the government) that her vision of an independent America almost seems impossible without government intervention of some kind, doesn't it?

Anne you fail to mention that inflation also grew over that time. And the gdp never spiked intill '41. His own secretary of the treasury said that he over reached with the social programs and actually made the recovery take longer then necessary.

Anybody have anything about that stimulas package that they can point out. Not claiming I have the answers, I just want to see what I am missing on that bill.

Gee, I wish Bush would have told us that "the long term benefits of the war will likely not be realized for years to come" before, like when he sold the Congress on it!

Jennifer, speaking of throwing out the constitution and scaring the populace into things... That sounds remarkably familiar to the past eight years' leadership.

You conservatives can keep your darn tinny AM radio heroes, just for Pete's sake stop calling the rest of us un-American and "what's wrong with this country."

Markko, why only focus on corporate america, our government has been out of control fiscally forever, and the american consumer is out of control on credit also. What is it you are looking for this intervention to do, what in particular, not a concept or talking point.

Did the mean soldiers in WWII force your grandparents to be protected and safe with violence against their will? I can't believe we sent them over there to murder those poor Nasis.

Unless you stop the playground teasing, you very small duckwa, I will not play with you.

Ladyslipper..Social Security has not gone broke yet, but if and when it does it is because the Government confiscates the incoming Social Security deductions taken from paychecks, and gives it over to the Government general fund to run the country. This has been going on for many years.That amounts to a stack of I O U's for future Social Security payments. You can check this and see for yourself.

I have two suggestions. Those people who would rather that the stimulus give tax breaks to corporations instead of the rest of us, perhaps you could just donate your extra $13 a week to your favorite corporate CEO. If enough of you could get together a grass roots movement to do this it would be wonderful. Also, Duckwa, clearly you have a burning desire to support our military. That's great! But I think it might be more constructive if you focus your energy on something more positive than continuing to harrass Markko for a comment he made in retaliation for an insult hurled by your classy friend boogerman. I think you will like this website http://www.homeofheroes.com/a_homepage/community/imposters/ They work to expose Medal of Honor imposters and other scumbags who like to pretend they were war heroes. (Think Warren Cook.) You might be able to help support their work somehow.

I wish I could stay on this blog all day but I've got to go back to work so that I can contribute to the stimulus package. You know, things like $200 million to design and re-decorate the offices of Home Land Security. Ya, I'm a Republican and I'm whining. Not because we 'lost' (58 million people voted against Obama by the way) but because I have enough sense to know that spending $650 million on digital converters is not going to help the economy. Even democrats should agree that's difficult to swallow. Have any of you even read what's in this package? Or are you just defending it because of your love fest for Obama? I could care less who's in the White House. I know that what we are doing will not work (that's history talking - not me).

And yes, the Republican do have the answers. It's called let Americans keep more of their money (to spend - stimulates the economy), let small businesses (which employ more than 70% of the work force - NOT big corporations) keep more of their money (to reinvest - thus creating more jobs). Income redistribution is NOT the answer.

And how has throwing money at the problem worked out for Japan and France? How are you going to like the double digit inflation that will make Jimmy Carter look like a fiscal genuis when the time these bills for the borrowed money come due? Can you say Argentina? Look it up. These are facts.

I don't think the stimulus tax breaks should go to big business. I also don't think that we should be providing $335 Million for adult sex workshops, which is in the stimulus bill. IF Obama really wanted transparency he would keep the pork and earmarks out of this stimulus bill. That is why I am so against it! We are selling our kids and grandkids futures. Where is the money coming form anyway? Loans or are we just printing more money? If we are printing money inflation will go up and that isn't going to help anyone! I think we need to concentrate on getting rid of the 'green crap' and allowing companies to manufacture HERE. That would provide jobs. Make us less dependent on China, we wouldn't have to worry about lead poisoning our children! When large container ships come here from China loaded and leave here empty there is a problem! Free trade? Sure cost us a lot!

Let me get this straight; the conservatives on here are whining that $13 per week per average worker is too LITTLE? Or too much?

Had the sum been $100 per week, would they be happier or more angry?

Brussell10, I thought 58 million people voted FOR McCain, not AGAINST Obama.

Japan’s federal expenditures, following their 1989 stock market crash, have had little to no effect on their recovery. Japan has been left with a huge government debt per GDP ratio and nearly 20 years of little to no growth. Why on earth would the U.S. want to follow in Japan’s footsteps?

— Gary Quinlivan, Dean of the Alex G. McKenna School, St. Vincent College

We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work.

— Henry Morgenthau, FDR Treasury Secretary, May 1939

We have been guided by a republican administration who believes in this simplistic notion that people who have wealth are entitled to keep it.

— Rep. Jim Moran (D-Va.)

This plan is a significant down payment.

— President Barack Obama

markko - is there a difference?

A few years back the inevitable liberal/conservative argument of cheap labor/cheap WalMart prices always came up every so often. Back then, most republicans lauded the system of cheap goods from "China" [or wherever the cheapest labor and regulation existed] citing the increased buying power it gave the average American.

Us horrible LIBS said that it was unfair to those workers (both abroad and those working for a pittance and no benefits at home) and very bad for Mom and Pop businesses in downtowns across the country.

The conservatives told us to shut our yaps and to go shop at those overpriced hoity toity stores in the downtown, because they were on the way to Wal Mart to buy a skid of plasma TVs.

Now the conservatives are playing our old song, and us awful LIBS are sitting here getting blamed for a "bloated" government which was deadlocked by everyone, but mostly the Republicans who have had the field advantage for the past couple decades.

No fairsies!

I would say there is, brussell10.

Markko, Its ok I don't want to play with you in any sense of the word and never expected you to answer a direct question.

Anne, first he has never said that was the reason for his remarks and there have been many over a period of time. Second, I never said i was just for tax cuts. I am trying to give the bill a fair chance, but not one person all day has been able to pointout one part of it in reguards to how it will affect maine. Aside from ladyslipper and extended COBRA, which is good but , but only a bandaid after the fact.

During Reagan, Bush Sr., Clinton, and Bush Jr the Dems had control in the House for 16 years and control of the senate for 12. If you want to go back to Carter add 4 years to each of those numbers!

Just on a side note, I find it interesting that the American press is not saying anything about the word wide situation having to do with other countries economies. China, UK, Iceland, France and others.....people are protesting in the streets, some places riots.....it's getting nasty and my thoughts are that we are in a lot more trouble then we are being told. Our media and governments trying to keep us complacent. But It looks like the world economy's are about to fail. This could be so much worse then we think. Check out other news sources and you'll see what I mean.

markko - let me try this: When you voted FOR Obama, that wasn't a vote AGAINST McCain? You're playing semantics. Next you'll be telling me that it depends on the definition of the word "is".

As for your diatribe on WalMart..... what Repubicans said was that you should let the free markets dictate themselves. If the ma and pop shops hadn't charged so much for their products they would have stayed in business. We never told you to go to a store and spend more than you had to for a product. Besides, who would do that even if they did?

You LIBS had control of the house AND senate when this economy collapsed. Why aren't you looking at Barney Frank? I mean, he is over the Banking Committee isn't he? And he was VERY boisterous as to the fiscally sound status of Fannie and Freddie just MONTHS before their failure started this mess. And it was your LIBS who told the banks that they needed to loan money to people who couldn't afford it - you know, all in the interest of spreading the wealth. How quickly you guys forget.

duckwa - here is a direct benefit to some of the folks in Maine: There is now extended medical coverage for the children of illegal aliens. You could also hope that someone in Maine wins the $200 million contract to design and re-decorate the offices of Home Land Security. Can't you just FEEL the economy bouncing back?

I will do this only once, so either bookmark it for future reference or just stop addressing me, trying to twist my words, duckwa.

It all started here with boogyman throwing the first punch, when he couldn't handle my critique of Rush Lumphead:

http://www.bangordailynews.com/detail/98531.html

On 2/2/09 at 09:47 AM, boogyman wrote:

"Has nothing to do with Rush you little punk. It has to do with the constitution, which I served 8 years in the US Army defending. Tell me you little maggot, how much time do you have in service of your country."

Then it went on and on. Then, amazingly, you got in on the action, tag teaming me with your pal boogy "viagra" man.

This has been going on for the past NINE DAYS.

Tell me, duckwa, why won't you just stop?

Jennifer, I wansn't threatening anyone's freedom of speech. Hannity and Coulter are free to call me (and all other liberals) anti-American. That doesn't mean they aren't idiots. Their name-calling contributes nothing constructive to our national conversation. I think a critical mass of people are beginning to realize this, because their tired tactics of character assassination failed in November. We can have debates, but let's have them on the facts, not on accusations of "anti-Americanism."

brussell, all I have to say is what HAPPENED to your market economy?

You CONS had it so figured out!

It was doing SO well... And... well, now it is not.

brussell, markko, it's easy: if they were voting AGAINST Obama, it wouldn't matter who they were voting FOR.

Ha ha. Viagra man. That's funny. Well ducky, here's a great graphic explaining the stimulus, maybe it will help you: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2009/02/01/GR2009020100154.html

The whole strategy of the floundering Republican party of attack and demonize is truly getting old.

It just doesn't work anymore.

markko - talk about calling the kettle black. It was the Clinton's who mastered attack and destroy tactics. Again, how quickly you libs forget.

And what happened to our market economy? You think free markets is what has caused this? You and the Barney Franks of the US told the banks to loan $ to people who couldn't afford it because you wanted to FEEL good about giving EVERYONE (and I mean EVERYONE) a chance to own a home. It was the Dems that looked the other way when the Republicans sounded the warning about Freddie and Fannie. Why is it that none of your responses address the specific facts and issues I raise? Typical Liberal is what I say. Hit you with facts and you come back with very mind provoking comments like "You CONS had it so figured out." You Dems won't take responsibility for what has happened and YOU did it. NOT free markets!!! For crying out loud.

Please respond to the following that is in the spending bill and has been in various comments throughout the day:

$200 million to design and decorate the office of Homeland Security.

$650 million for digital conversion boxes.

$335 million for adult sex workshops.

Barney Frank saying that Freddie and Fannie were sound financially just months before their collapse.

Japan did what we are doing 20 years ago and look where they are now (do you even know?)

Income redistribution.

Democratic control of the house for the last 16 years and senate control over the last 12. And this is an issue of the Republican strategy around free markets?

"We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work."

— Henry Morgenthau, FDR Treasury Secretary, May 1939

Facts markko. Facts. Not emotion. Not name calling. Not attacks. Facts.

Go ahead..... I dare you to try and address the above. Go ahead and defend $200 million to decorate an office. I can't wait to see how you do that.

(Chersully, if you're there I just saw that Fausto is posting on the Feb. 4th letters http://bangornews.com/detail/98728.html)

brussell, where did you get those figures?

Marko set aside the mud slinging for a moment. I remember those posts a few days back and they were blunt and got a little out of hand to say the least. What do you want? Do wish for all conservatives to vanish? Where would the checks and balances be if this were the case?

So, brussell10, the economy is in turmoil because of forced charity to poor people?

Nothing to do with predatory lending and deregulation, eh? Nothing to do with "investors" "flipping" homes left and right? Nothing to do with truly shady trading of debt and mortgages? Nothing to do with not even requiring prospective mortgage seekers to list their employer's name? Nothing to do with the president who, until it was absolutely ridiculous to do so, say... "our economy is STRONG!"

So, to speak to your outrage over the following points:

If the year was 2002, and Bush had proposed a bazillion dollars to put flashing Homeland Security Alert lamps on every street corner of the nation, he would have been given the big thumbs up by everyone... Now Homeland Security is a LUXURY? Had a LIB said that not too long ago, he would have been threatened to be sent to Gitmo by the entire chorus of CONS on here.

Analog TV, NTSC, is an ancient, outdated system. The rest of the world laughs at it (I know, because I am in the industry) call NTSC "Never The Same Color." In this age, television is part of a nation's infrastructure and it needs updating.

I have no idea what “adult sex workshops” are, so cannot speak to this.

“Barney Frank saying that Freddie and Fannie were sound financially just months before their collapse.” See above. Bush as well as the treasury said things were hunky dory. I’m not letting them off the hook, but the general consensus of the government was “see no evil.”

20 years ago, if you are old enough to remember, America was TERRIFIED of Japan buying up the US, because they WERE. Their boom HAD to collapse, it was inevitable. Additionally, Japan is a much smaller economy than the US, not to mention a third the population of the US. The whole world is adjusting to this new so-called global economy. Iceland is up the river with out a paddle too… But I don’t hear cries of sorrow for their plight (incidentally, their currency value is directly connected to the Greenback, unfortunately for them).

My fingers are tired... Why is it you CONS and religious freaks keep asking us LIBS to answer your questions all the time? Ever hear of google? ;-)

I can't wait for the government to tell my doctor what tests and procedures I can have done!! Where are the poor Canadians going to go when they are denied treatment because their government deems them unworthy or they are at the bottom of the rationing list??? There will be a shortage of doctors in this country which will mean longer waiting lines for being seen or getting MRI's or other chemo or other treatment.

The entire stimulus package can be downloaded as a 680-page .pdf file here http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/HR1.pdf

I know many of you object to the Huffington Post, and you can also download it from the House Rules Committee website, but I couldn't get the page to load, it's probably seeing a lot of traffic right now!

I just downloaded it and did a document search using the term "adult sex workshops" and it didn't turn up. I'll keep trying to verify brussell's figures.

brussell10, you waste your time trying to argue facts against emotion. You make a valid point about Dodd and Frank and frannie and freddie and the hearings. The response you get back is "uh uha". Like it isn't a fact that can actually be checked. He can't debate in any classic form, point...counter point.

And markko, you have never once said you didn't mean the things you did say about the military. Its nothing to do with sticking up for boogyman, he does fine with you. It is about sticking up for the sacrifice of thousands of Americans, many of which my friends and family, that you put down with your ignorant comments. I guess now you are trying to imply that it is Boogymans fault you said what you did. OK. Sounds like an interview about Rhiana getting beat up I heard, the lady said we dont know the whole story yet, As if there is a good reason to beat up a woman. Well let me tell you , your losing a match of wits with boogyman is no excuse for putting down so many people. If you said that about a different race, your lib friends would hang you out to dry, but its ok cause its the military.

YOU'RE STILL AT IT?

I am THIS close to filing a complaint against you.

Oh duckwa, anyone could win a match of wits with boogyman. Get serious.

So I've been searching this 680-page document for brussell's figures and haven't found anything. Trying to find the $335 million for adult sex workshops he cited, I first tried the entire phrase "adult sex workshops" to no avail, then "adult," which only came up once concerning medical expenses, then "sex" which only came up once (that's in 680 pages of text, mind you) and that was within the phrase "sexually-transmitted diseases." The word "workshop" or "workshops" isn't in there at all.

Oh, this is interesting. I searched on "335" and here's what came up: "(4) not less than $335,000,000 shall be used as an additional amount to carry out Domestic HIV/ AIDS, viral hepatitis, sexually-transmitted diseases, and tuberculosis prevention programs, as jointly determined by the Secretary and the Director;"

That must be what brussell is saying is "adult sex workshops!" because it's the only instance of $335 million. That's an interesting way to spin it, brussell! Thanks for the disinformation.

There's nothing in there about $200 million for Homeland Security. There was one instance of $2 million for Homeland Security, which is for oversight and audit of 20 programs, grants, and projects.

Brussell10 - Dems supported going to war because the Bush administration lied & used a campaign of 9/11-based fear to convince everyone that we were about to be blown up in a mushroom cloud. Your comment about the fiscal benefits of WWII makes it sound like you think we should continue the idiotic war in the name of fiscal responsibility. Whining about illegals in my view is really just a form of racism and I don't want to hear it. If you want to get rid of illegals, simply penalize the people who employ them. I've had all I can stand of the Texas way of doing things - I put up with your boy from Crawford for 8 years & it was a train wreck.

Markko, answer my question do you wish all Conservatives just vanished? No tricks.

No. What gives you that impression, workingpoor?

Bangorian, stop being a blow hard. Sadam killed thousands of his own people! Should we have just allowed this to continue?

Thank you by the way. There has to be checks and balances. Ying and Yang. It's frustrating when someone tries to ram their political and social issues down your throat that's all.

I'm just playing the game as it's played, workingpoor. I learned from the best of the CONS ilk; Rush, Hannity, that douche Beck... They're all mean SOB'S and have taught their minions well... and early on, believe it or not, I got my first taste of "conservative thought" via G. Gordon Liddy's radio show in the early 90's.

People on here like vichet are few and far between... That is, conservatives who use at the very least a modicum of reason and thought.

Generally, I have learned when I hear/read the term LIB in a derogatory way (which is mainly the only way we are referred to in places like this), just like on the playground, I need to come out punching because otherwise I will be blocked with obfuscation, doublespeak and downright nastiness.

FYI, workingpoor.

I gather brussell is a conservative, and that he has VANISHED when confronted with facts, gone off to some other websites to spread more lies about the stimulus package.

On 2/12/09 at 03:12 PM, workingpoor wrote: " It's frustrating when someone tries to ram their political and social issues down your throat that's all. "

I know what you mean. Imagine how this felt for us for the past eight years when uttering even the slightest dissent meant you were branded a traitor, told to leave the country or worse, to boot.

Your talking points are received. These are hard times we live in. I think for the most part it's a good thing to be passionate! I think everyone in here loves this country and will fight toothe and nail to pull it back if they feel it's going in the wrong direction. I hope people can find common ground and make America greater than it is.

Markko, honestly what have our political leaders done for us? Where is Washington, Jefferson, and Lincoln? What we have now are two political machines that jockey for control! Eight years one way Eight years the other. One will always counter the other with no progress made. I will agree, you and I have differing social views, but there is no other country we would live in. It used to be an honor to lead now its a way for man to be drunk with power.

"(4) not less than $335,000,000 shall be used as an additional amount to carry out Domestic HIV/ AIDS, viral hepatitis, sexually-transmitted diseases, and tuberculosis prevention programs, as jointly determined by the Secretary and the Director

and what exactly does that have to do with stimulating the economy? How many jobs are going to come from that? Seriously! Stimulus bill....or pork laden earmarks? You decide. I am against the bill as written.

anne_of_mdi - Jennifer actually contributed the figure on the sex shop. Her previous writings have been pretty intelligent and right on so she has credibility as far as I'm concerned. The other figures I pulled personally off of the bill. I did not make them up. You will find them, however, I must admit that the "find" feature didn't seem to be very useful for some items.

ok markko - my fingers are getting tired too and I'm not contributing to the bail out but here we go - one at a time:

You said, "Nothing to do with predatory lending and deregulation, eh? Nothing to do with "investors" "flipping" homes left and right? Nothing to do with truly shady trading of debt and mortgages? Nothing to do with not even requiring prospective mortgage seekers to list their employer's name? Nothing to do with the president who, until it was absolutely ridiculous to do so, say... "our economy is STRONG!""

I totally disagree with the idea that investors flipping houses contributed to our collapse. Again, supply and demand dictates the pricing. But I agree with your overal premise and point. But predatory lending was supposed to be overseen by Barney Frank. And shady trading of debt and mortgages had no party affiliation. And who set up the rules for lending? Wasn't that a function of the banking institutes - overseen by Barney Frank?

Next: Anytime someone starts something with "IF" you know you are immediately in the land of conjecture and hypothisis so I won't even waste my time. And I didn't say Homeland Security is a LUXURY. I believe it is a necessity. But do we have to spend $200 million (actually $198 million but what's $2 million when were talking a trillion?) to re-decorate it? How does that stimulate the economy?

Next: Television is part of our infrastructure? So now our govt has a responsibility to make sure everyone can watch t.v.? Where does that logic end? Why aren't we buying televisions for everyone who doesn't have one? How about everyone who wants to watch television after the conversion go buy their own converter box? Why is it my responsibility to pay for someone who can't afford one? This is the difference between you and I. You want the govt to provide everything for those who can't for themselves through income redistribution.

Next: What Bush said, and this gets taken out of context all of the time, was that the "fundamentals" of the economy were strong. They were and still are. Free markets. Supply and demand and proper oversight by the govt. (which was the part that was lacking) markko - Barney Frank was asleep at the wheel and you know it. Sure, there's enough blame to go around. I said earlier that Bush could never be accused of being fiscally conservative. But the FACT is that the Republicans DID try to warn us and DID try to implement more regulation (Bush tried 12 times during his tenure) over Fannie and Freddie and Frank and Chris Dodd lead the Dems charge that it wasn't necessary.

Next: True, Japan is smaller. But the mistake they made to recover from their collapse is the same mistake we are making. They tried to grow their govt and threw money at the problem. Go ahead and take a couple of Zero's off of our plan to compare it to theirs if it makes you feel better. The concept is the same and it has not worked.

Next: Google? You mean the site that took 4 years to fix the "miserable failure" search bomb that linked the words to Bush and then took 72 hours to fix the same bomb for Obama? Right. I'm on my way....

How close??

brussell, there's nothing wrong with my "find" feature. There's no $200,000,000 in there to decorate anyone's office. You never answered my question about where you got your figures. Would you kindly go back and pull the information directly off the bill again? Thanks in advance.

workingpoor, we LIBS, are zombies and cannot control our minds.

Anything the Benign Leader says or does is filled with Uplifting Greatness!

;-)

But seriously, I think Obama will do some good things if given the chance. I suppose it COULD get worse, but the way things were going until he got in office, they certainly weren't getting any better.

We were forced to grin and bear it when Bush and his Elves spread the fear, the loathing, drew lines in the sand.

I think it is ridiculous that people are calling his presidency failed, and he hasn't even been in office more than a few weeks!

Give it a chance! What choice do we have at this point anyway?

Wow, you have to be pretty ignorant, or paranoid, or both, to say you won't use Google.

wow workingpoor, you certainly have changed your tone since you called Obama a "terrorist-loving DIRT BAG!" (emphasis yours)

On 2/12/09 at 03:39 PM, duckwa wrote: "How close??"

Already submitted, creep.

Liberial is not an insult any more then conservative. Difference is that most conservatives don't mind the term. My understanding in a nut shell, and I understand that most people don't fit completely in either catagory. A conservative believes in the power of the individual to, when left alone as much as possible, puul themselves up and live the American dream. A liberial believes in the power of the government, and would rather consolidate the contrabutions of the many together for what they believe is a bigger punch at the problem. Both can be "good" americans. And most people don't feel all one way or the other but a combination of the two.

oh no.....

duckwa, you need to stop making up definitions for stuff.

Softening your brain say you. If this bill were 100% pro job growth I would entertain it, but every political hack who has added their own pet project in there is wrong. Our economy is hurting and now is not the time for the extras! We need food aka bread and water right now not lobster. In your own home you have a budget so should these clown.

Guys just read the bill and stop falling for all the hype.

anne i don't recall that, but all take it into consideration. I'll admit I was not a fan, but there are no do overs and we need to move forward and pray he'll do the right things. If he doesn't will just pick someone else who can't do it either. Let's hope for the first. Duckwa, just stop! Do you think you're going to change their minds. By the way a Libertarian wants to just be left alone not a conservative. The more I see of this country the more Libertarian I become.

Perhaps the chasm that has been driven between LIBS and CONS is the political process itself.

Remember during the 2008 campaign when Sen. John McCain derided a $3-million earmark for an "overhead projector" at Chicago's Adler Planetarium that Sen. Barack Obama had requested last year to replace the facility's 40-year-old projector??

Well, it wasn't.

http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/10/adler-planetari.html

McCain repeatedly called the requested equipment an "overhead projector" which brings to mind the simple light projector your junior-high geometry teacher used to display transparencies. But the Zeiss planetarium projector Adler has its eye on is no simple teaching aid.

The 78-year-old planetarium's current system weighs more than a ton, is around ten feet long and is capable of projecting over 4,500 stars on a 360 degree planetarium dome. Adler installed its first Zeiss projector in 1930 when the museum opened as the only planetarium in the western hemisphere. It upgraded a newer model in 1969, when humans first landed on the moon.

It's not surprising that nearly 40 years later it might be time for another upgrade. Once at the cutting edge of planetarium technology, Adler has fallen behind the Griffith Observatory in Los Angeles and the Hayden Planetarium in New York City, which already have the latest Zeiss projector.

We have to be able to see past the rhetoric of ALL sides (even the ones on our own).

This "earmark" debate is basically moot to us layfolk... It's just bickering at this point.

Maybe what we need to do is start getting along better? And stop with the lies.

Working poor, maybe over simplified but I would describe a libertarian to be a conservative that isn't caught up in the social issues. And again I'm not claiming anyone fits in that neat of a box. Just a general overview.

Anne, don't be defensive, I don't mean it as a negative. Don't liberial as a platform generally believe there is more power in pooling the money of many of us to do a better job of things like helping the poor, then what they believe a singal individual would be able to do? if you don't believe in the power of the government then why support the social programs? Again I'm not claiming it is an incidious view, just different then mine.

Yes, Markko, a big problem is the lies fabricated by the GOP and their minions, like brussell and jennifer, who are all too willing to spread them. Here's yet another example of a stimulus lie:

Thirty million dollars for wetland restoration in the San Francisco Bay Area - including work to protect the Salt Marsh Harvest Mouse, "Pelosi's mouse slated for $30M slice of cheese," headlined the Washington Times. On Thursday, Rep. Ed Perlmutter (D-Colo.) took to the House floor to set the record straight.

"There are no earmarks in this bill. There is no earmark for rats in San Francisco. There is money that goes to the EPA and the Department of the Interior for cleanup of wetlands and maintaining of wetlands and apparently this is on a list of ready-to-go projects but it, like many others, must compete within the departments for that money. It is not a specific earmark within the bill," he said. "That trivializes this bill."

Spokesman Drew Hammill tells the Plum Line's Greg Sargent, "There are no federal wetland restoration projects in line to get funded in San Francisco... The idea that $30 million will be spent to save mice is a total fabrication."

Have they no shame?

Point taken. Maybe it starts here. These people do not look out for their electors. They have forsaken the same people who's heads they have stepped on as to keep their own feet dry! I feel we need better leaders that love this country first and foremost! I believe we can find common ground on social issues in the future. What did cavemen ever do without politicians?

Duckwa, I am very conservative on social issues, but i want little government envolvement in my life. Oh, and I think you mean Moderate when you're talking about social issues. You're not helping. I must go its been fun. I mean that.

duckwa, I'm not being defensive. You are just way, way off with your definitions. And I don't like to be a grammar granny, but it's spelled liberal. No i at the end. Please look at actual definitions before defending the ones you made up. Here's one to start you off: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative#United_States

Three cheers for workingpoor!

ladyslipper, I really don't care what you think of me. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you are not pro- lead paint, so what exactly is bothering you about lead paint hazard reduction? You must realize it will create jobs, so .. go ahead and explain your view.

I don't mind being called a simpleton by you. Help me understand what you see the problem as. Do you think the dollar amount is too high?

233,500,000 in oversite alone in Porkulous/stimulus bill...Lots of cushy government jobs in DC.....

Anne, the only way that any of these guys on either side can stand up with a straight face and claim no earmarks at all in this bill is because the process used to write the bill, and the lack of a need for individual earmarks from crongressmen. If you think that means that no pork or pet projects have been written into it then you are being fooled. on your example of the mouse thing I really don't know that much about it. As far as reading the bill, anne have you seen it? I was under the understanding it numbers in the thousands of pages, I bet that most that voted for or against it or for it havn't read the whole thing themselves. Again anne, I'm not saying it is all bad, or that it should have been all tax cuts, I just keep asking for someone to show me a part that will help and how. And the lead paint thing is a great program. When we were first married and bought a house it had lead and it was getting to the kids blood levels. A government program came and helped us clean it out. Good program, not necessarly stimulative. Japan showed us it was not just about throwing money at the problem. Also you bust on my general definations, but what is so wrong about them.

Markko, G.I Not, Yea yeah, three cheers.... way to go spike.

Here's how it reads in the bill: OFFICE OF HEALTHY HOMES AND LEAD HAZARD CONTROL LEAD HAZARD REDUCTION For an additional amount for ‘‘Lead Hazard Reduction’’, for the Lead Hazard Reduction Program as authorized by section 1011 of the Residential Lead-Based Paint Hazard Reduction Act of 1992, $100,000,000: Provided, That for purposes of environmental review, pursuant to the National Environmental Policy Act of 1969 (42 U.S.C. 20 4321 et seq.) and other provisions of law that further the purposes of such Act, a grant under the Healthy Homes Initiative, Operation Lead Elimination Action Plan (LEAP), or the Lead Technical Studies program under this heading or under prior appropriations Acts for such purposes under this heading, shall be considered to be funds for a special project for purposes of section 305(e) 2 of the Multifamily Housing Property Disposition Reform Act of 1994: Provided further, That of the total amount made available under this heading, $30,000,000 shall be made available on a competitive basis for areas with the highest lead paint abatement needs.

WHAT'S WRONG WITH THAT?

Duckwa, On 2/12/09 at 02:37 PM, anne_of_mdi wrote: The entire stimulus package can be downloaded as a 680-page .pdf file here http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/HR1.pdf

You should download it and review it.

anne_ I haven't VANISHED. Do I sound like a guy who would run? But I can't blog all day. I have to occasionally work to contribute to the stimulus plan. Confronted with facts? When did that happen? markko's best come back started with "IF"

I'll find the page numbers for you on the converter box and decorating. Just because you can't find the info doesn't mean I'm spreading lies. You just spread a lie. How stupid are you going to feel when I give you the page number? You libs can't stand it. Go back and review the comments from today. Spreading lies? Confronted with facts? I missed it.

And please answer Jennifer. How does "$335,000,000 shall be used as an additional amount to carry out Domestic HIV/ AIDS, viral hepatitis, sexually-transmitted diseases, and tuberculosis prevention programs, as jointly determined by the Secretary and the Director" help the economy?

bangorian: Racism is your typical throw down card. I'm not racist and if you knew me - which you don't - you would know how absurd that claim is. I don't have a problem with legal immigrants. They have their place. But the problem is with the employers? There you go again. Mean ole business men. Let's not enforce our current laws. Let's not protect our borders. To do so would be racism? Log on to the Houston Chronicle and read story after story about "undocumented immigrant" crimes. (the Chronicle is about as liberal as the BDN so they don't use the term "illegal immigrant") I bet if you went to an emergency room in Bangor you wouldn't have to wait 4 hours to see a doctor because the room was filled with illegal aliens with a cough or sniffle. I have and this is a common story here - as it is in all of the states that border Mexico. We live it everyday and WE all are paying for it. Like Texas or not we are part of the union. (and you didn't like our president so now you don't like Texas? That's genius.)

In another comment, I'll share with you the cost to the law abiding citizens of the US just what the cost is to our country for allowing illegal immigrants to feed off of our tax dollars. And anne_ you'll be able to verify everyone of the FACTS I give you.

Anne, again no problem with the lead paint program, or even the aids funding that jen speaks about. Its just that these and a lot more programs have been push through in this huge bill. A lot like the Aids funding can't even be termed to be stimulative, unless you want to say any spending of money is stimulative. They have been put in for the convience of pushing them through. Most , even if they are a good helpful program should be voted and passed on their own merritts. I have bben trying you link, but it is bungged up at the moment. I did read the washing ton post link earlier.

Jennifer and Brussell 10, let's talk facts and figures, not your flights of fancy.

Social Security is not just a retirement benefit: it provides disability benefits, dependent benefits, and survivor benefits as well. Comparing what an investment might earn by age 65 is a false comparison. Let's take Hank WIlliams' grandfather and assume he became permanently disabled at age 25. His investments at that age would buy him enough to cover a cup of coffee a day for the rest of his non-working life; the disablity portion of Social Security will give himand his minor children a significant monthly benefit that lasts until the children reach adulthood and Hank's grandfather reaches the grave. Should Hank's grandfather have died in his 30's, his children will get their dependent benefits until they turn 18, and his widow will receive a benefit while taking care of any children 16 or younger, when disabled herself after age 50, and as early as at age 60 if she so elects, whether or not disabled. Her benefits are based on Hanks' grandfathers' brief, but productive working life, with a guaranteed minimum . Should Hank's grandfather have avoided both death and early disability, he will have retirement benefits until the grave. The right pretends that this package of benefits is merely a retirement stipend and peddles a knowingly false comparison in hopes that the geniuses who brought us the market crash can have more investment funds to squander.

Jennifer then quotes Henry Morgenthau, Jr., to prove that the New Deal didn't work. Morgenthau was vehemently against Keynesian economics, but Roosevelt ignored him at first. Sweden is the one country that tried Keynesian economics early during the Great Depression and it was the first to pull out of it. Roosevelt did as well initially, and GDP grew during the first three full years of his term by 7.7% (1934), 8.1% (1935) and a whopping 14.1% (1936). Unemployment, which was at 24.9% in the year Roosevelt came to power, had dropped to 14.3% by 1937. As that figure also included the discouraged worker and the underemployed, it probably equates to 8 or 9% as we currently measure unemployment. Roosevelt was more than half way home when he finally listened to his anti-Keynesian Treasury Secretary, Hank Morgenthau, and began balancing the budget and cutting back spending. A second recession ensued and Morgenthau, in 1939, spoke the words of self-justification that Jennifer selectively quotes. He was wrong then and Jennifer is wrong now. We began selling war materials to the Brits and were drawn into the war itself by Pearl Harbor, so big government spending was back again, and Roosevelt finished the job of pulling us out of the second recession. Spending government money to buy tanks has the same initial stimulus as spending government money to buy cars. However, the cars will be used and have to be replaced, while the tanks usully sit idle, unless war erupts. Reagan's deficit spending on the military was less effective than Roosevelt's, because very little of that hardware was ever used, unless you count the glorious and grueling war with Grenada in 1983. That money would have been more productively spent on retrofitting our economy to make it more energy-efficient.

Anne_of_mdi, don't be too hard on Brussell 10. He is from Texas and is clearly delusional. At 2:00 p.m. he posted about "Democratic control of the house for the last 16 years and Senate control over the last 12." Apparently, even though Republicans Newt Gingrich, Tom Delay, and Denny Hastert were running the House from January 1995 until January 2007, and Republicans Bob Dole, Trent Lott, and Mitch Mcconnell were running the Senate for all but two years of of that time, the Democrats were actually in charge! This poor man virtually screams at Markko "Facts" and then tells a pack of lies. Brussell 10 says he's down in Houston. Isn't that the City where George W. Bush did his early drinking and drugging? Do you suppose Brussell 10 got into some bad free market tequila or some bad black market cocaine? Something is causing him to become unhinged and emotional.

Preventable disease prevention programs? Those create basic health care jobs, as well as save the lives who will go on to become educated, get good health care at a reasonable price and become a working citizen in this country? Sounds OK to me.

It's not about "giving everyone a free TV," as you describe, it is about making the necessary transition technologically in the least painful way possible. While it could be said that the internet has now surpassed TV as the ultimate communications device for a modern nation, there are still remote areas that rely on the basics like TV and radio when it comes to getting essential news like terror alerts and when to duct tape their windows. I suppose only people who can afford that kind of information deserves to get it? ;-)

What ever is the "$200 million Homeland Security Makeover?" I don't know, I thought the naming of that department was a bit over the top and overwhelming. When is the right time to redecorate such an important office? But more importantly, *how* to decorate!?

$200 million? $200 million? In terms of overall governmental department spending? $200 million is like an Iraqi desert rat's fart (let's not forget that we spend a whopping $2 BILLION per week in the Iraq conflict alone. Not to mention all of the M&Ms on Air Force One, etc., hey! How'd Bush put it? 'They hate us for the way we live, go buy a car and 'keep the economy going!'? Most of us don't have money left for that now!).

But that government spending, ANY spending would naturally put carpenters and construction workers to work and go through the public bidding processes and all that glorious stuff involved in government expenditure, with MORE JOBS made available!

Right now private industry isn't doing too hot keeping Americans employed or secure. Are they?

So to you, the naysayers of the plan... What would you otherwise do to fix this mess?

oh but markko: They are the "real Americans" , don't you know!! Joe and Jill Six Pack and all the rest. Just what so many of us would want running the country!!

Yes, it is sad. Throw another war, and maybe we can help out the economy. That is just a fine solution!!!

Anne: I think that grass roots effort you suggest here is a great idea. At least they would feel they were doing something instead of criticizing everything that is being done to try and get this country's economy back up and running again. Since they are so unhappy with the current Administration, maybe they should run for office, or donate their extra $13 to their political party to help get it viable again.

markko: They do not care about the vulnerable low-income elderly person (and maybe with no family members to help this elderly person with the transition to digital). As long as they have their cable, satellite,etc., they are all set, don't you know, and who cares about anyone else!! Thankfully, most people do not feel this way. What a world, if so. An Ayn Rand kind of world. Everyone is on their own!

according to a Wall Street Journal estimate, only about 12 cents of every dollar will actually go to "something that can plausibly be considered a growth stimulus.

Fausto, I wrote that including the Reagan years Democrats controlled the house 16 years and Senate for 12 NOT "Democratic control of the house for the last 16 years and Senate control over the last 12." get it right. What I wrote is entirely correct. Look it up on wikipedia.

FYI President Obama has defined stimulus as money that would go into creating jobs and moving the economy in the next two years. Just so we are on the same page as to what stimulus is.

For example a very worthy causes but they belong in the regular budget NOT a stimulus package!

$28 billion is being provided to put kids in special education, Head Start and child care and development programs for disadvantaged children.

$100 million for the Lead-Based Paint Hazard Control Grant Program

$200 million to the Leaking Underground Storage Tank Trust Fund Program

$300 million for "Violence Against Women Prevention and Prosecution Programs"

$900 million for the IRS for the "Limitation on Administrative Expenses"

$1 million for the Railroad Retirement Board for administrative costs

$2 billion for the Drinking Water State Revolving Act

$50 million for Health and Human Services to carry out injury prevention programs

$1.1 billion for studies on the effectiveness of different medical treatments

$200 million to upgrade labs and facilities for the Department of Agriculture "to improve workplace safety and mission-area efficiencies"

$10 million for urban canal inspection

$16 billion to pay for student financial aid

$1 billion to pay for the U.S. Census

$600 million to pay for a fuel-efficient federal auto fleet

$650 million for the Digital Converter Box Program to help the constantly delayed transition from analog television

$485 million to the Forest Service for "hazardous fuels reduction and hazard mitigation activities in areas at high risk of catastrophic wildfire"

Up to $1 billion for "summer activities" for youths as old as 24

$40 million for the occupational research agenda

$3 billion for the Centers for Disease Control wellness programs and vaccinations

$410 million for Indian health facilities

$2.4 billion for carbon-capture demonstrations

On 2/12/09 at 05:55 PM, ladyslipper wrote:

".....the big push to get this thing passed ASAP is a big red flag!"

True, it is a bit daunting, but the alternative? Do nothing?

You do know that other countries' economies have already and yet may collapse. It's a GLOBAL economy. Andi it's out of whack.

Jennifer, do you have a link to this list?

embrace socailism you right wing scum.Thats all that will make them happy.

$88,000,000 Public Health Service Helps agencies in the Public Health Service building move when their lease expires in July 2010.

http://www.propublica.org/special/earmark-creep-in-the-stimulus-package-090202

So what do you want me to post links and exact lines where you can find this stuff?

"We are going to ban all earmarks -- the process by which individual members insert pet projects without review," he explained.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/06/obama-to-ban-earmarks-fro_n_155787.html

ladyslipper, "and the Liberal money grab begins... " I just got home and I'm in the mood to beat a dead horse. What. ladyslipper, did your precious leaders do for Halliburton and the entire arms and private security industries between 2001 and 2008? What did the Bush administration do to local law enforcement budgets? The giveaways have been going on for quite some time, in my twisted little world building things and helping prevent disease are good things. I guess in your world attacking countries that have never been an actual threat to the US and bombing them into the stone age followed by an occupation without end is the way to go. Each to his own.

brussell10, "Income redistribution is NOT the answer." If that's the case, you agree with me that the Republican legacy of redistributing the assets of the middle class to the upper-class that started under Ronny Reagunz was wrong. It's nice to see a true conservative posting on this site for a change, and by the way, free markets only seem to work for those with the money and power to control them. The rest of us get toxic waste, crumbling infrastructure, overpriced, shoddy health care that benefits only those that set the pricing, poisoned peanut butter and countless other foods, and the freedom to enlist in the armed forces to fight wars to protect the assets of the beneficiaries of the "free market" system. You are also SO misinformed about who has been controlling the house and the Senate since 1986. You said the Democrats had control of the house for the last 16 years and senate control over the last 12." actually the Republicans controlled them from '96 through '06. Maybe you're talking about some other country?

Saltoria, "I can't wait for the government to tell my doctor what tests and procedures I can have done!" I guess you'd much rather have millionaire health-care executives make the decision based on what's best for them, not what's best for you. Personally, because I can't have ANY tests because I can't afford them, I'll go for the government giving me at least some access to health-care. Oh yeah, a friend of mine spent a night in the hospital a few weeks ago and just got his bill. Among the dozens of absurd and ridiculous charges this one really stood out: $78.00 for three aspirin. Hey hey dittoheads, there's your "free market" working its magic for all of us.

Bangorian, great posts, right on!

I would love a link to the list of:

"$28 billion is being provided to put kids in special education, Head Start and child care and development programs for disadvantaged children.

$100 million for the Lead-Based Paint Hazard Control Grant Program

$200 million to the Leaking Underground Storage Tank Trust Fund Program

$300 million for "Violence Against Women Prevention and Prosecution Programs"

$900 million for the IRS for the "Limitation on Administrative Expenses"

$1 million for the Railroad Retirement Board for administrative costs..."

etc.

Jennifer, I respond in detail to your criticism of Social Security, the New Deal, and Keynesian economics and you respond to my criticism of another poster, brussell 10, as if I were critiquing you? Whether your original post was correct is irrelevant, Brussell 10 apparently made a silly cut and paste and never used quotation marks. I correctly critiqued him.

Let's get to the core issue: my post demonstrated that the New Deal was working until Morgethtau screwed it up, that your quote of Morgenthau was misleading, and that your critique of Social Security was an apples to oranges comparison. Your failure to respond to these criticisms and points is a tacit agreement that I was correct. Thank you.

Let's go to Japan: I visited Japan in the 90s. They did have the right idea in infrastructure problems and their road-building and train system was impressive: it puts ours to shame. Where they screwed up was in not cleaning up the banking industry which had gotten immensely over-leveraged in the real estate bubble. Bush and Paulson were repeating the Japanese mistake with TARP I. Obama will have to get it right. I think voting equity in the banks for the government and honest accounting of what these CDOs are worth will be at the core. This right wing noise about Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac is just noise. They were late-comers to the hog feed and the problem with CDOs and even larger problem with CDSs is at the core here. A CDO (collateralized debt obligation) allowed a mortgage lender to quickly unload a subprime mortgage, have it packaged with thousands of others by a Wall Street Investment bank, and sold as secured debt to greedy and incautious banks and investors who wanted a "low risk", high return investment. CDSs (credit default swaps) allowed banks to insure each other without any of the regulation that usually accompanies insurance. A defined problem in the housing market has now infected the world. A little regulation might have nipped this in the bud. Without CDOs and CDSs, we might have had another Savings and Loan fiasco a la Reagan's deregulatory misadventures. CDOs and CDSs spread the plague.

Ladyslipper, SSI is not the same as OASDI. The former is a means-tested minimum payment to a disabled person who never paid enough social security taxes. The latter is traditional Social Security. The less you read the more your ignorance shows.

Well, I guess we'll just have to wait until brussell10 gets back to us with those page numbers. Nice to have you back Fausto!

hankwilliams did you know that the only medical care that hasnt increased more than inflation is cosmetic surgery. it is also the only care that is totally private. socialism doesn't work. read your history books. tell me one program the goverment has run that wouldnt be better off run private. except for the military

Jennifer's list of programs that ought to be included in the budget but NOT the stimulus package...I'm getting a cognitive disconnect here. Forget it you guys. Stop flailing. The stimulus package has been hashed out over and over again by the best minds in the country ON BOTH SIDES. You are w-a-a-y outnumbered and outclassed. Especially ladyslipper. Why are you always seething? Go volunteer for the GOP for heaven's sake! Maybe you could jam some phone lines.

bcb it is not my responsibility to provide your health care, or your retirement. take care of it yourself. i have my own health care and my own retirement plan. im not expecting anyone else to pay for me.

Good for you shockin. Enjoy your little fiefdom, obviously unfettered by family and friends. Oh by the way, we're taking away your water, sewer, roads, phone, cable and power lines, police and fire protection, post office, military protection, social security, and schools. Feel better now?

markko - are you kidding? We should spend $650,000,000 on digital converters (page 51, lines 1 and 2 Anne_) because "essential news like terror alerts and when to duct tape their windows. I suppose only people who can afford that kind of information deserves to get it? ;-)" And I'm delusional Fausto?

We might get a terrorist attack (which we probably will as soon as the clowns get rid of the Patriot Act - soon to come I'm sure) so we've got to make sure everyone gets the information? Unreal. You're too intelligent markko to even believe that yourself. So then, why aren't we buying radio's and/or t.v.'s for everyone? I mean, if an attack is coming (just as if we're going to see it coming) how else are we going to tell everyone? I think $650 million is perfectly logical now. Thanks for clearing that up for me and making such a compelling arguement.

Anne_ how gullible are you anyway? Wow. You have to be pretty ignorant to not know I was making a joke. It was in response to markko's poke. I'll be sure to use the ;) symbol next time so that you can follow along. And, as usual, you didn't respond to my point about Google. Also, another fact.

Fausto - of course you are correct - kind of. I did post at 2 that the dems had controlled the house. But I had also said, leading up to that, that what I was posting was a composite of earlier postings. That was actually posted first by Jennifer at 12:57. Guess you missed that. Must be dillusional. While trying to work (my contribution to the stimulus plan) and post at the same time I made a mistake. And no, no bad black market coke or free market tequila for me but if I wanted some, trust me, I could get it on any street corner in the illegal immigrant part of town. And I'm originally from Maine - which I was proud of before Snowe and Collins acted like they were smarter than the other 532 elected Republicans (between the house and senate) and voted for this spending bill.

Why else do you think I checking out the BDN? And what's your excuse? Cold weather frozen your brain? I haven't said a thing all day about social security. I think you're unhinged and dillusional.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe one of the reason's the tank's sat idle after Reagan invested heavily in our military was because Reagan invested heavily in our military? It's called a deterrent. But you libs don't understand that. We just have to sit down and talk to the people who fly planes into our buildings and cut the heads off of innocent civilians.

And then you go on to say that the noise about Fannie and Freddie is just noise? You go on to trash the the "greedy and incautious banks" - the banks that Barney Frank was suppose to oversee? That's a fact. Not noise. And then you say, "a little regulation might have nipped this in the bud." No kidding. Go back and listen to the hearings from 2006 when the crazy right was trying to warn everyone that Fannie and Freddie were in trouble. (you can Google this anne_)

markko - what would I do? I would immediately cut the payroll tax in half. Now. I've never been to Japan but I've owned a few small businesses in my time and have a very clear understanding what this would do for our economy. Many economists are saying this but Nancy and Harry won't have it. Can't take their precious tax dollars. And I would tell the banks that they had better start lending money again - and not to those who can't pay it back. That's what got us into this mess to begin with. But people with good credit can't get money right now. TARP gave the banks our money and guess what they're doing with it? Hanging on to it. Nice move. And then I would fire Barney Frank. He has taken no responsibility for this and he ran the friggen' banking committee.

And while I'm at it, let me tell you what I wouldn't do. I wouldn't try to attach every friggen' social program I had on my wish list for the last several years in the name of a stimulus package during the first month of office. Read the bill. Line item after line item is full of pork. But when you have people like yourself trying to make a case for $650 million for digital converters so that everyone can get the information about a pending terrorist attack I guess anything goes.

brussell10, we're still waiting for the page number for the homeland security office decoration. ladyslipper, when republicans are in power our tax dollars go to support their friends in our bloated military industrial complex. Do you object to that?

anne i will gladly never draw social security if they stop taking it out of my paycheck. you are so predictable. anytime a lib talks about cuts its always the police and fire. i have a well and septic, i pay for my cable and phone, i'll use fed ex, and i served in the military. you are taking these all away from me ? if the goverment has control of all these things that gives them the power to take it from me. thank you for prooving my point. feel better ?

shockin, cable and phone are government subsidized, didn't you know that? How are you ever going to get anywhere without any roads? It boggles the mind. Shockin! (You're predictable too, by the way.)

Shockin, I don't think you're really thinking about this. Your employer wouldn't be able to print you a paycheck if there were no electricity, because most if not all payrolls are computerized, as are the banks. Anything having to do with banks or finance can't function without electrical power lines. Whatever you do for heating fuel wouldn't be able to be delivered to your house if the roads weren't maintained. Your cable and phone lines are government subsidized, so you wouldn't have those either. You wouldn't be able to order Fedex without a phone or a computer. Do you really think you could get along alright with just your well and septic? Well maybe you could.

ladyslipper, it's difficult to figure out what exactly is wrong with you. The entire House and Senate have been hashing over this bill. Don't you understand that you live in the United States of America, the greatest democracy on Earth?

the $88 million to move offices should be in the regular budget so should $870,000,000 for Pandemic flu preparedness!

One last-minute addition was a $3.2 billion tax break for General Motors Corp.

Another late addition was a quadrupling to $8 billion, at the behest of Obama and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., of money to construct high-speed rail lines. Reid's office issued a statement noting that a proposed Los Angeles-to-Las Vegas rail could get a big chunk of the money.

Now let's see what Pelosi is bring home with her....$50,000,000 for the California Bay-Delta Restoration Act well better yet go look yourself at the state allocations....

http://www.news10.net/news/pdf/StateAllocations.pdf

bcb do youknow why the phone companies are subsidized its because they are regulated. if you call the phone company and want a phone line put in 10 miles in the woods. guess how much it will cost you. the same as if it was 100 feet up the same road. call the cable company and ask the same thing, i think it will scare you. cable companies and phone companies are not regulated the same. now that you mention it, i cant go anywhere without roads . i agree with you i will send my whole check to the goverment they can divide it up ,how they see fit. thats a great idea thats never been tried before. where do you draw the line on goverment programs? by the way i do pay for those roads thru taxes and i still dont want to pay for anyones healthcare.

On 2/12/09 at 06:29 PM, markko wrote:

I would love a link to the list of:

"$28 billion is being provided to put kids in special education, Head Start and child care and development programs for disadvantaged children.

$100 million for the Lead-Based Paint Hazard Control Grant Program

$200 million to the Leaking Underground Storage Tank Trust Fund Program

$300 million for "Violence Against Women Prevention and Prosecution Programs"

$900 million for the IRS for the "Limitation on Administrative Expenses"

$1 million for the Railroad Retirement Board for administrative costs..."

etc.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/first100days/2009/02/12/pork-platter-stimulus-contains-items-boost-economy/

wow what are you people smoking? dont you get it? you are threatening to take away all of these goverment programs. so lets throw in healthcare. now you can control me even more. where does it stop? i do not want people like you making decisions on my health. if you want to fix a pothole in the road ypu have my blessing.

Shockin,

Off the top of my head:

The post office

The library

The public school system

The environmental protection agency

The national park service

Police, fire and rescue

NASA

The national endowment for the arts

I could name more, but it's getting late.

You "government is the enemy" people make me tired. The world ain't that simple. I'd rather pay for my neighbor's health care than for blowing up villages in Iraq. Yeah, that war's been GOOD for America. Goodnight.

Our Government has shown just what a mess they will make out of everything. They borrow from Social Security then complain because they need more money for Soc Sec!

Tell me just one Agency/Department that is run good, not great just good. How many Departments/Agencies could stand up to total public scrutiny of their total budget? How many would still be around if they were a private enterprise?

It isn't that I think the government is the enemy it is a little common sense goes a long ways. Where is the common sense in Government or don't they have to have any? I don't know too many households, towns, or businesses that could survive if they were run like the Federal Government is...wait maybe they could IF they could print money when they need it like Government does!

i cant argue with you. all you people do is list more goverment agencies. we need some goverment and i pay my taxes. please get the point that there is a line that i dont want the goverment crossing. now its back to iraq if you cant win one arguement change the subject. ill check back tomorrow for another list of agencies. goverment is not the enemy but for you it is the solution so dont stereo type me and read what i say. i hope this time it is clear if not i will see another list tomorrow.

Anne: there is a real nasty, prejudiced person that posts here!! You do not need to answer me as I am sure you figured it out long ago. .....oh well, there are not many like that in this world. (thank God)

Some here are so sure there is going to be a terrorist attack soon. They sound like they almost wish for it. As I recall, Republican George Bush was President when we had the last terrorist attack on our soil. Unbelievable....

Yeah anne: Seems as if they should be out vigorously and diligently working for their party to make it more viable in this country. I mean, are they just going to count on those southern states??!

And yes, vichet is a conservative who makes sense in presenting his views.....refreshing here.

And yes, good to hear more from Fausto again. It takes quite a "mind" to refer to any of her posts as "boring." They are anything but. Short attention spans for some, I suppose.

Still in denial....some here.....Obama's election victory was significant. Their team did not deliver the goods. Penn, Ohio, Florida, Michigan.....well, you get the picture.

thanks jen you said it much better than i.

"A brain and a heart"? truly delusional.

Anne and everyone: Just thought I would let you know that I have been renamed "chersulky" by a certain individual here.......oh, my feelings are so hurt!!!!!!!!

I thank the lord there are few like he/she in this world. I can think of quite a few names to call that individual but would not go down in the gutter where he/she is.

markko: The solution , don't you know, is to just do nothing......and throw certain people to the wolves. But wolves would be kinder than this individual.

Anne: I would be flattered to be called a simpleton.....consider the source.

Anne: Can they speak of nothing more than the so-called pork expenditures all the time!!

I'm a "liberal", but I bought my own conversion box and antenna. I am a liberal but do not expect the government to do everything for me. Some folks here are very simplisitic and stereotypical. I do have compassion for those who might need a hand up at times. Gee, guess that must make me a liberal! Oh dear...

Yes hankwilliams: All the character assassinations did not work in November.....and still do not seem to be working (including here) But they are the "real Americans', don't you know!

markko: Some here throw out the insults, and then conveniently forget that, and twist it around and do not take responsibility for their insulting remarks. Oh that's funny......thought they were all for everyone taking responsibilityfor their own words, life, etc. So many contradictions...

It's irresponsible to be completely without health insurance. There are affordable plans for everyone, with varying deductibles according to what fits one's budget.

Millie you are so right. I would suggest that people put down the cigarettes and beer and buy some health insurance! I am a single mom of 3 and I spend 1/4 of my full time income on awesome health insurance! Why? So my kids and I can go to the doctor when we need to and I can afford to do it. I do not have a car payment and the only debt I carry is my mortgage which is paid every month on time! I have one credit card for emergencies...if I can't pay cash for it then I don't need it or I save for it! I live by a strict budget! Why should I pay for anyone else's insurance? I don't make oodles of money...I live with in my means! The Government could learn a lot from me on how to make do on a shoe string budget! If I can afford it anyone can...it is all a matter of priorities!

Let's see: I was criticized when I posted about myself....."Me Me Me".....but I am a liberal and was criticized by someone who is far from one. So guess Jennifer will not be criticized for "tooting her own horn" ...Interesting..

But I commend you Jennifer for using discretion, will power,etc and not living beyond your means...."sacrifice" for your kids. All good things.

I also live fairly simply, don't go overboard, and pay my bills,etc....

I agree about the cigarettes,etc. That is not a solution for anything.

A thought from Abraham Lincoln on his birthday -

Lincoln understood that self-reliance is at the core of American life. But also that individual liberty is "served, not negated, by a recognition of the common good."

jennifer, it is clear that you are a responsible person, if the description of your budgeting is accurate.

You pay twenty five percent of your income on health insurance for you and your kids.

Assuming you make $2000 a month before taxes, that means you spend $500 per month on health care. Multiply that by 12 months and you get $6000 per year. Commendable, if a bit exorbitant.

What, jennifer, would you do if you got laid off or lost your job and chose to pay the heat and food and mortgage before you paid the insurance? If one of you suddenly had an accident or got sick, how, please explain, would you pay for health care for you and your kids then? If one of your kids got sick, say cancer and would need treatment. Would you just take them to the emergency room and hope for the best in terms of care and what the bill would look like? Maybe charge it on your credit card as an "emergency?"

Already, Maine has health care available at low cost to low income, uninsured folks.

My bet, if you already have never used it, is that you would use such care without hesitation, despite your whining right now.

In combination with regulating hospital fees, some form of health insurance across the board for people who need it is inevitable.

I hope we are not a society that will continue to let people go bankrupt and lose everything they have because they needed an operation or treatment.

If you are as independent as you say you are, I think you would sleep better at night knowing that should a catastrophe strike your or a member of your family, you would not be left out in the cold, having to decide whether to sell the house at a loss or get that hypothetical lump removed.

I don't think there is anything wrong with having insurance for low income people! I do think it is a bit ridiculous to expect others to provide for you if you are able bodied and working. Why people who chose to spend their money on frivolous things think that it is my responsibility or the governments responsibility to pay for their insurance while they tool around in a new car or go on expensive vacations. If that is you don't whine to me about not having insurance.

What about Massachusetts? It is mandatory for everyone to have insurance or you pay extra in taxes. Employers are made to provide insurance to employees, maybe they have the right idea and people here would stop complaining about the uninsured.

As far as my insurance being a bit costly, I chose the plan I did because I can actually afford to go to the doctors. I don't have a $2500/$5000 deductible. I have NO deductible and reasonable co-pays. A lot of good it does to have insurance when you still can't afford to go to the doctor.

Jennifer it sounds as if your health insurance is provided by your employer.

a portion of it is paid by my employer.

i hope you get everything you want? pretty soon i wont have to go to work, everything will be provided. if you cant beat em join em.if we do get a health care system like canada or england i can retire early.

Well that is why you are able to afford it and have no deductible. Don't come on here acting all self-righteous about universal health care if someone else is subsidizing your health insurance.

shockin, why does universal health care mean you can retire early? Are you only working for the insurance?

So, what you are saying, jennifer, is that at the moment you "have yours" and when and if the time comes that you MIGHT need health care when you are not as able bodied and employed. You want it both ways, it seems.

You truly think that people who aren't insured or are under insured (with ridiculous deductibles) are going on expensive vacations on a regular basis? This is your main argument against universal health care?

Strange outlook on humanity.

markko the difference is she went out and got her health care.you want yours provided.

markko there is insurance available for low income people/families and those who aren't able to work. Those programs should be in place to HELP people. I think there are a lot of people who live above their means and their health insurance isn't what it could be or maybe they have dropped it all together to pay for their $500 a month car payment.

I have posted a couple articles here about universal/socialist health care. It doesn't work. People aren't getting the care they need. The elderly are being denied services in Britain! Why do you think things here would be any different? Did you read the article 'the benefits of universal health care = death'? Or the article about withholding care to people who are old or obese? There are plenty of businesses here in Maine that are not being paid in a timely manner for the health care costs of the low income and elderly who qualify for medicaid. There are businesses that have had to go out of business or cut services to their clients because they aren't being paid! Why do you think that we can afford to have universal health care?

Jennifer, shockin, you are both naive. If you have employer provided health insurance, those days are numbered. Employers can no longer afford to offer employee health insurance as a fringe benefit. It's just a matter of time before you lose yours.

markko how much are my taxes going to go up to pay for universal health care anyway? I'm sure it is going to be a lot more than the $13 a week they are giving me in a tax break. If people can't afford insurance now how are they going to afford it when they have no choice but to pay their taxes? I am a firm believer in helping yourself and living within your means. How is taxing me more going to help me pay for healthcare and how is it going to help the economy when I will have less in my pocket at the end of the week to pay for bills and groceries? You may say that I won't be paying for my own health care any more but what choice would I have but to continue to pay for private health insurance to ensure that my kids and I get the care we need, like they have to in Britain.

anne then how are these companies who can't afford to help their own employees pay for health insurance going to do when they are taxed to death to pay for everyone's health care? talk about naive!

Its only a matter of time before folks lose their employer sponsored healthcare because government has made it (particularly in Maine) so expensive. It is almost as if the government planned on driving first private insurance companies out of Maine then driving up the premium cost so the state can take over.

Jennifer, what do you think would cost companies more: providing private health insurance for their employees, or paying taxes to universal health care? Do you think your personal tax increase for universal health care will be higher than what you're paying now for insurance premiums? If you are a single mom with three kids, I highly doubt it.

yes vichet, it's a vast right-wing conspiracy.

again, vichet, you must be right. it has nothing to do with corporate greed.

jennifer, don't whine about being afraid that universal health care is going to make it harder for you to afford health care and groceries for you and your children. If you can't afford it just find a better job. Isn't that what you're telling people without insurance to do now?

vichet, if you're finding it difficult to afford insurance for your employees, just make more money. that's what you have told me to do.

in 2006 the U.S. spent 15.3% of GDP on health care in that year, for the poor and elderly during the same time period Canada spent 10.0% to provide their health care to their people. In 2006, 70% of health care spending in Canada was financed by government, versus 46% in the United States. Total government spending per capita in the U.S. on health care was 23% higher than Canadian government spending, and U.S. government expenditure on health care was just under 83% of total Canadian spending (public and private). The health care system in Canada is funded by a mix of public (70%) and private (30%) funding.

Through all entities in its public-private system, the U.S. spends more per capita than any other nation in the world.

16% or 45 million Americans are uninsured at any one time, one study estimates that about 25 percent of the uninsured in the U.S. are eligible for Medicare, Medicaid, and the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP), or Veteran's programs but remain unenrolled; however, extending coverage to all who are eligible remains a fiscal and political challenge.

Federal and state agencies are paying about 45% of the $2.2 trillion the nation spent on medical care in 2004.

So anne tell me how we are going to come up with 65% of 2.2 trillion oh and don't forget to include those people who never went to the doctor that year because they didn't have insurance so increase that 2.2 trillion by what 16% (the average number of uninsured at any given point in time) and how do you think we can afford it? If we could afford it then why are so many doctors, hospitals, labs and agencies having to wait for payments NOW? Just like those articles I posted said, they can't afford to pay for everyone's health care and they have to pick and chose who gets the care. We would be in the same boat! The Government always over spends and mismanages money. I am sure it would cost a whole lot more than the figures I have posted. Did you notice that federal and state agencies are paying 45% of what the whole USA spent on medical care in 2004? That's not enough?

I work 2 jobs and live just fine supporting my family. So to change things up and make me support your family is a bit much to ask. I don't mind helping and paying my fair share to HELP those who qualify for programs but I should NOT be paying for people who work and chose to spend their money elsewhere! Universal health care is for people who work and don't have insurance because they choose not to get it either through their employer or on their own. We have dirigo here in Maine which is subsidized insurance for working people. what more do you want? Maybe I'll just quit my job and get medicaid and let the taxpayers support me.

You are taking liberites with my comments Anne. I never said that and wouldn't have. I probably said something like find another higher paying job or one with better benifits or something of that ilk. I know you, as a matter of course, like to twist ones words to your own worldview and I suppose to some degree we all do that. But please do place words in my mouth nor attach concepts to my statemnet i did not say or mean.

The main reason that American health care costs so much is "indefensibly high administrative costs." Those costs will be drastically reduced with a single payer universal health care system. http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/21/why-does-us-health-care-cost-so-much-part-ii-indefensible-administrative-costs/

wow, vichet, saying "find a higher paying job" is so drastically different from saying "make more money." How ironic that you would be indignant over such a statement.

Canadians also experience waits for medical emergency and specialist services, although there are high numbers of people waiting under both the U.S. and Canadian systems. Studies by the Commonwealth Fund found that 24% of Canadians waited 4 hours or more in the emergency room, vs. 12% in the U.S.; 57% waited 4 weeks or more to see a specialist, vs. 23% in the U.S.

21% of Canadian hospital administrators, but less than 1% of American administrators, said that it would take over three weeks to do a biopsy for possible breast cancer on a 50-year-old woman; 50% of Canadian administrators versus none of their American counterparts said that it would take over six months for a 65-year-old to undergo a routine hip replacement surgery.

anne are we going to provide health care to illegal aliens too? I think that is where the drain on the system comes from and why medical care costs so much here compared to Canada. Someone has to make up for all the ER visits illegals never pay for. Maybe we should button up the boarders and keep the illegals in their home country. If we have universal health care would ER's or doctors be required to treat non residents without payment?

Yes Anne, There is a difference.Your response indicates that the ability to recognize that may be a little above your pay grade.

Oh anne please do not tell me that administrative costs are going to be less with universal health care. I bet when you add all the extra government workers that will be on the payroll it will be more! I will grant you that hospital admin etc will probably be less but the government loves to over do on admin and don't forget they'll have to have some over site committee too. That is the biggest joke I have seen on here so far! thanks for the laugh anne!

Jennifer, here's a hypothetical for you. My children are grown up and no longer in school. Now that "I've had mine," I think it's unreasonable for you to think I should have to pay taxes so your children can go to school for free.

vichet, I would be interested to hear what you believe is the essential difference between saying "find a higher paying job" and "make more money." I see the phrase "higher paying" as being synonymous with "more money." What am I missing?

anne that isn't even remotely the same. Your children got their education while my parents and grandparents were paying for it. A lot of people already get government subsidized health care. Those who don't qualify for free can get reduced for their children. Then the state of maine has dirigo health. I am saying health insurance should be a priority for people and it's not. Don't buy that new car repair the old one. Don't buy a latte every day and go out to eat a couple times a week. No where does it say that anyone is entitled to free health care. The constitution says life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. It doesn't say life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, free medical care, a nice car, a house, and a 6 pack of beer in the fridge. See those things after the pursuit of happiness you have to work for.

How about this anne. Anyone who doesn't pay into the system doesn't get the benefit is that fair?

a whole new world now? OMG That's right Obama is going to save us all from ourselves cause we are all too stupid to do anything on our own or figure things out on our own. His new transparency of Government workings is just wonderful and all the bills being available for public viewing and commenting WOW I love that (note sarcasm here). Now the very people who are voting TODAY were just given this bill late last night and are expected to read it and vote on it today! I want my 5 days. lol

anne I have an idea. How about we all work 40 hours a week doing something and the government can take all our money then send us a check so we all have the same amount of money. We can all have universal health care. We can even do rations so that no family has more than the next. Is that what you want?

Jennifer it's ludicrous, insulting and ignorant to say uninsured people choose lattes over health insurance. You sound like Marie Antoinette! Where does it say that your children are entitled to free education? Free education was instituted to level the playing field, universal health care will do the same. Everyone already pays into the system. You are mistaken if you think people who can't afford health insurance aren't subsidizing you, your children, and everyone else. People who work and pay taxes but can't afford insurance are getting the shaft. Dirigo isn't the answer, wherever did you get that idea? It's just as unaffordable as regular insurance.

Anne, I would be interested to know if you have ever had an original thought?

I gather that means you're not willing to answer the question.

Anne some people do chose not to have insurance and spend their money on lattes and cars and vacations. Even when insurance is offered it is up to the employee to fill out the papers and pay their part. Some don't care if they have insurance and don't want to pay for it. I have seen it more than once. For you to think it doesn't happen shows how naive you are.

No anne not everyone pays into the system. What about the people who end up getting back tax refunds that are thousands more than they paid in? Oh and they get what they paid in back too. Those people aren't paying in to the system anne they are taking from the system and they are usually the ones who qualify for free health care. Tell me how people who can't afford health insurance are subsidizing me? I pay taxes I don't get thousands back and I don't get back more than I have paid in. I pay my own way. My kids go to school and get an education. Myself, my parents and grandparents all pay or have paid taxes for their education.

DId you even bother to read the stats I posted above anne? The state and federal government already pays 45% of the total spent on health care annually. 16% of people are without insurance in the USA and 25% of those would qualify for a state or federal sponsored program! So that leaves 12% uninsured. Not bad if you ask me. Why are they without insurance? That is the question that needs to be asked. Are they illegals that don't have a counterfeit social security card to get free health care? Are they choosing not to pay for coverage under their employer? Or can they seriously not afford it. I wouldn't feel bad about giving someone assistance if they were being frugal with the money they have. Tell me why I have to subsidize people who make the same as I do and spend their money on things that they don't need but want?

anne I got the impression dirigo was a great program since my tax dollars are paying for it so others can have affordable health insurance. If it isn't so great why are we still paying for it? I am being sarcastic. I know dirigo doesn't work it costs way too much. I don't know how much it costs people to get insurance through dirigo but heck the amount of money the Gov has dumped into it I figured it must be providing some darn good health insurance to someone.

guess this goes for you as well anne.

On 2/13/09 at 09:08 AM, anne_of_mdi wrote:

I gather that means you're not willing to answer the question.

Jennifer, many of your questions seem rhetorical. Is there one in particular you would like me answer?

Jennifer, where did you get the idea that there are people who receive "tax refunds that are thousands more than they paid in"?

Anne I just got back from a meeting.... Not all of us can set back, NOT contribute to society, and expect "free" healthcare and insult people if they cant respond right away. If you want better healthcare find an employer who can afford to pay a better salary package that includes better healthcare.( It may mean you actually have to work) Baring that the only other way to do it... Is to grow yourself a business provide yourself with an income and if you are so forunate and work hard enough ... (Go without for a while... make some sacrifices for yourself ..). you can grow large enough to employ people .Then you are faced with the problem of taking care of thier requirements. Small business does the best in that regard it can. It doesnt need the state to step in and make it harder more difficult and more costly. Again if you dont recognize the difference you need to get some remedial help. I am not in that business.

anne go to any H&R Block and ask them it happens all the time. People who make say 8700 and have a few kids can get back 3000 do you really think that they paid in $3000? Or how about someone who has a few kids and make 20,000 they get back in the $5000 range again do you think they paid that much in. Heck no they don't. It's called earned income credit, child tax credit and additional child tax credit. You seriously didn't know that these people are given thousands in refunds? You need to do some research anne and see what is being doled out to people before you go making statements about me sounding like Marie Antoinette because I don't want to pay for universal health care. Some of these people that get that kind of money back qualify and get food stamps. Don't you think that maybe they should spend a portion of their huge 'refunds' on food for their families? Anne the economy is going to look like it is rebounding a bit consumer spending will be up the first quarter of this year because of these 'refunds', happens every year. I personally think if they are getting free medical and food stamps that they should not also be entitled to large sums of cash too! Some people work just long enough to hit what is called the sweet spot and that is where they can get both EIC and the additional child tax credit. Those are the people who abuse the system. I'll even go find the EIC table so you can see what these people are getting back PLUS what they pay in and sometimes the additional child tax credit. I worked at H&R Block to earn extra money to afford extras and dealt with these people daily.

Brussell 10, my post at 5:20 p.m. on 2/12 in the first paragraph called out you and Jennifer for parroting two right wing myths. The second paragraph addressed the first myth: Jennifer's apples and oranges comparison of Social Security, which provides disability, survivors and retirement insurance, with a simple retirement investment plan. Jennifer's silence means she agrees she was wrong.

My third paragraph addressed both your attempt and Jennifer's attempt to peddle the second myth that the New Deal didn't work. Yours and Jennifer's silence on that point means you agree with me: It's hard to argue with 10% per annum GDP growth and an 8% drop in unemployment during the first three years of the New Deal. Roosevelt's mistake was to listen to Morgenthau, a balanced budgeteer like the current right wing (save for endless deficit spending on wars and the military), and to cut back on New Deal infrastructure spending.

Finally, Brussell 10, the word is spelled "delusional" and there are not 532 Republicans in the House and Senate who disagree with Snowe, Collins, and Specter. As there are 435 voting Representatives and 100 Senators, your figure would mean that every member of Congress was a Republican. Don't get on this site and demean the intelligence of liberals and then make these kinds of mistakes: it makes you a laughingstock. I am a cold logician and will be merciless on you if you don't think before you type.

Jennifer, we have a comparison of administrative costs at Medicare and administrative costs at private insurers: Washington University in St. Louis points out on its website that Medicare administrative costs are 2%, Medicaid about 7% and private insurers up to 30%. The latter have to deal with advertising expenses , sales commissions, and profit, none of which are part of Medicaid or Medicare costs. Look at the low mortality rates and high life expectancy in countries like France, Germany, and Switzerland, all of which have mastered universal health care in better ways than the Brits or the Canadians. If you want another example of how public entities are often cheaper and more effective than private entities, look at the military: It costs us far less to post a Marine squadron in Iraq than to post a similar number of Blackwater mercenaries; the Marines are more careful in their shooting habits.

As Brussell 10 bloviates about socialism, he might read the dictionary definition: a theory of government that advocates government ownership of the means of production. The only purely socialist entity in the US is the US military: we own the buildings, land, and machines that these military employees use. We give them the type of benefits that the right wing claims are socialism: subsidized housing and food, generous retirement plans, and socialized medicine (where the government actually employs the doctors). The only step this nation has taken towards socialism on any large scale beyond the military was Republican George Bush acquiring shareholder status in a lot of failing banks. I am a business-owner who depends not at all on government contracts. Brussell 10, are you down in Houston on some sort of government -funded employment?

Vichet, the insulting tone of your comment is completely uncalled for. You write, "It may mean you actually have to work." I work. I have stated many times here that I am self-employed. I run my own business. I am putting two children through college. I pay taxes. You are the one who needs an attitude adjustment.

anne according to the table a person making as little as 12,000 and having 2 kids is entitled to 4824 in Earned income credit.

http://uticataxman.com/Documents/2008EICTABLE.pdf

and I am betting that if they make 12,000 they are getting free medical and food stamps. so they 4824 to go on a spending spree keeping all their benefits. Mean while I work pay in and pay for my own medical yet you say my children and I are being subsidized by the tax payers. OK anne. I can see from your answers you don't get out much and you don't really know what is going on in the USA and you don't know how much is already being given out.

Jennifer that is total fiction. No one gets back more than they pay in.

You're self employed anne? So when taxes go up say 15% or even 20% to pay for universal health care and you can't afford to help your children out as much you're going to be ok with that? What if they have to drop out because they can't do it without your help, that's going to be ok because everyone will have universal health care?

OMG Anne I am telling you that is a fact. Call H&R Block and ask or call any tax service and ask. It happens all the time it is not fiction! Where have you been? It is the truth look at the EIC table that is a refundable tax credit.

from wikipedia:

The United States federal Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC or EIC) is a refundable tax credit. For tax year 2008, a claimant with one qualifying child can receive a maximum credit of $2,917. For two or more qualifying children, the maximum credit is $4,824. Grandparents, aunts, uncles, and siblings can also claim a child as their qualifying child provided they shared residence with the child for more than six months of the tax year.

Enacted in 1975, the initially modest EIC has been expanded by tax legislation on a number of occasions, including the more widely-publicized Reagan EIC expansion of 1986. The EIC was further expanded in 1990, 1993, and 2001 regardless of whether the act in general raised taxes (1990, 1993), lowered taxes (2001), or eliminated other deductions and credits (1986). Today, the EITC is one of the largest anti-poverty tools in the United States (despite the fact that most income measures, including the poverty rate, do not account for the credit), and enjoys broad bipartisan support.

Jennifer, it's a credit, not a refund.

it is part of their taxes and they get the credit/refund from the IRS it's all semantics anne. they are getting a large chunk of money from the IRS. It is a refund due to a credit.

I should have edited that it is part of their tax return they get a refund due to a tax credit. It is a REFUND.

Jennifer, I don't know where you're getting your 15% and 20% figures, but universal health care can only improve my situation. With it, I wouldn't have to worry about being bankrupted by a single serious illness, in which case I wouldn't have anything to help my children out with now or ever. I wouldn't be able to continue to pay taxes either. Come to think of it, if all 50 million uninsured American citizens were to be bankrupted by an illness, then we would all end up on welfare and medicaid as a result. In that light, it's possible that universal health care could forestall tax increases in the long run.

It's a credit. It's an amount that is deducted from taxable income. It reduces the amount of tax you have to pay. You cannot get a refund for more than you pay in.

and what do you drive for a car anne? Do you children go to public or private colleges/universities? You can't tell me that you don't spend money on things you don't need. How much do you spend on clothing in any given year? Been on vacation lately? Where did you get the figure of 50 million american's being bankrupted by illness and over what period?

fausto, the military underpays their people for the job they do and provide them with a pension for 20 years of service along with disability benefits to those who are injured and medical. Have you tried to get an appointment at a Veteran's clinic? How long was your wait?

My ex husband was military. We never lived on a base, the closest we got was an hour away. We had crappy tricare insurance and paid a lot of out of pocket medical because a lot of places wouldn't take the insurance. They wouldn't have to pay a housing subsidy if they paid their men enough money. It was pretty sad that the commander brought all the guys food stamp applications and made them fill them out. To prove a point that they were under paid. Sad thing is a lot of guys E4 and lower qualified for them.

I still don't believe the New Deal was totally responsible for pulling the country out of the great depression.

I still don't agree that I am wrong on social security either.

Hi Fausto. Thanks for all the good information. You'll notice that brussell10 never got back to us.

anne_of_mdi I guess I never saw you post that. I apologize. I rarely read your posts anymore unless they are addressed to me. But still you seemed insistent that i respond to your every whim in your specified time frame.. What else am I to think? Congratulations on your business. Is it one the lends itself to innovation? Perhaps if you explored more options and you could increase your income. Provide more services... if you have the time. You could get better insurance. I have heard Bob say that he was satisfied with his income. So I guess I assume you are as well. Why should others who are strugguling to do better for themselves and their families and employees be forced to subsidize your healthcare?

exactly vichet. that has been my point all along but you said it much better and in less words than I ever could have.

Jennifer, are you calling Reagan a socialist for creating the modern version of the EITC? Do you not want to encourage people to work? While it would be even better to raise the minimum wage and increase unionization efforts, don't we want to help as many people as possible to work their way into the middle class so that they can help support an economy in recession?

Right now the supply of goods exceeds demand and people are being laid off. Might it not be a good idea to quickly boost demand so that those goods will be bought and people recalled to work to make and market the goods? Who do you suppose will spend that money rather than save it, the chambermaid supporting two children or the Wall Street banker earning $3,000,000.00? Have you ever studied economics?

Jennifer, let's get logical, not emotional here: this isn't about your individual preference, but about our collective judgment as a nation. We made a decision last November and rejected the Hoover/Bush economics that got us into this mess. Wake up and smell the coffee.

Jennifer, why should I have to subsidize a free education for your children?

On 2/13/09 at 10:26 AM, anne_of_mdi wrote:

It's a credit. It's an amount that is deducted from taxable income. It reduces the amount of tax you have to pay. You cannot get a refund for more than you pay in.

Anne, in this case I don't think that is correct. I know I read that in this case you can get the credit for more then you paid. In past bills you are correct about it cant be more. I will look for the information. I still cant get to that huffington post link, doesn't load for some reason. Did you say it was the actual bill?

Hi duckwa, they've divided it up into 4 smaller documents that you can download, there's an updated link here http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/12/final-stimulus-bill-full_n_166604.html

Vichet, I bicycle to work and rarely use my car. Why should I subsidize paved roads for people like you who drive all over the state? I think we are spending money on high tech weapons for an enemy, the Soviet Union, that no longer exists. Why shold I subsidize defense contractors who are still scamming our government with delusional thinking like missile defense shields and thousands of nuclear-armed weapons? I feel we can learn all we realistically need to know about Mars with an earth-orbiting telescope. Why should I subsidize the aerospace industry with expensive unmanned Martian exploratory vehicles? I can go on and on. Every government expenditure involves someone paying taxes for government activities he or she thinks unwise. If we looked at macro-economic effect only, i.e., how does this expenditure affect overall national productivity, we find that affordabe education, universal healthcare, and transportation infrastructure have a greater effect over time than inter-planetary modules, nuclear weapons, or a host of other funded items. Indeed, the post-war success of Japan and Germany is testament to what happens when the size of your military expenditures is small as a percentage of GDP. This "why should I subsidize?" question has a simple answer: because policy choices were laid out in the last election as clearly as they have been for a generation, and our side won. Wake up and smell the coffee.

Jennifer, vichet, if you think people can't afford health insurance because they're stupid and/or lazy, why do you, Jennifer, accept subsidized health insurance from your employer, and why do you, vichet, offer it to your employees?

Did I say that Anne? I dont think so.

Well, here's your opportunity to clarify your position, vichet.

why did my grandparents have to subsidize your childrens education anne?

anne duckwa is right in the case of EIC people can and do get a refund for more than they pay in.

How many private sector jobs will be lost so you can have universal health care anne?

So anne you're going to have a governmental overseer deeming what is the appropriate treatment and cost. That's great huh? Tell that guy in England who's life wasn't worth the cost of chemo meds. Tell the woman in Canada that had to wait weeks just to have a biopsy. Why if Obama wants transparency is this hidden in a stimulus bill? Why isn't it it's own bill that could be debated? Is it because they don't want us to know what it is going to cost? They are just going to keep attaching bits and piece to every bill going through congress until they have what they want?

There are 47 Million uninsured people in the USA right now but take out illegal aliens and you have about 8 million US citizens who have no health insurance. So we are going to federalize the health care for 8 million people and out of those how many chose to gamble and not take the insurance. There was an article in the NY times, front page, that talks about that. About a girl in her low 20's who chose to buy furniture instead of getting health insurance. She got sick and now wants health care. So I should pay for her health care when it wasn't a priority to her to pay for it herself? Gee maybe I should petition the government for a new furniture program? It isn't fair I can't afford new furniture because I pay for HEALTH INSURANCE!

People come here from all over the world to seek medical care here in the US. Why? because we have top notch health care here in the states. What are the chances that will still be the case in 25 years if we go to universal health care? Why do Canadians come down here for medical care?

Fausto Yes policy choices have been outlined ... The problem is that if my expenses go too high. Someone loses their job. I imagine it will be that way for your business as well. If things are really that good. (by Annes Logic) Why dont you hire 2-3 more people and cover their insurance? While you revel in your victory stop to consider that indeed there will be new winners and losers and from what you have said on this site about your business and income you may end up being a bigger loser that you think. You will not be exempt just because you are an Obama supporter.

anne... i dont have to spend my day answering your questions while you decline others which has been your M.O.

it is called a bebefit of employment anne one that the company i work for provides and if you don't take it they pay you a quarterly stipend. So if I were married and had insurance through my husband I would get paid more. It is part of my wages! It is part of my benefits and it isn't subsidized I pay for it with my earnings and the job I do for the company.

where can I find the numbers you provided as far as 50 million people filed bankruptcy due to lack of health coverage? I would be interested in what they were earning. Was it a choice or was it not available to them?

Just so you dont beat me up If i dont answer right away i am off to a lunch meeting.

Jennifer everything you just wrote is complete and total fiction. And why do you say your grandparents subsidized my children's education? That doesn't make sense! My husband and I were working and paying taxes the entire time our children were in school. Aren't you working and paying taxes while your children are in school?

Frances healthcare system was not universal until 2000 they started it in 1945 and phased people in. It also isn't free. In the hope of curbing consumption and expenditures, copayments were implemented and have increased over time. These copayments are relatively high for many out-patient services.

For example, patients must pay 30% of Social security's tariff for a physician's visit, moreover, roughly 40% of specialists and 15% of GPs are allowed to charge more than the tariff. Copayments are also high for dental prostheses and eye-ware. This tends to deter the poorest citizens (few of whom had supplementary insurance) from seeking care.

Great system huh? Read that last line....tends to deter the poorest citizens from seeking care.

Yes but my grandparents had one child and paid the same taxes, actually more because they have less deductions for income taxes, than people who had 2, 3 or more did. So they must have been subsidizing the education your children got. I work and pay taxes, income and property, not big refund here.

What is fiction anne? Just like you claim people don't get back more than they pay into the IRS. I think you should do some research before calling me a liar anne. I have sources to back up everything I said about universal health care in Britain and Canada from reliable sources and their government websites. YOU NEED TO DO SOME RESEARCH! Read a paper or two besides the BDN.

You have told me twice anne that what I post is fiction even after proving you wrong the first time you continue. I guess there is not getting through to you. You see things your way and anyone who doesn't is Marie Antoinette or a liar. Did you not read the sources I posted in regards to the man who was denied chemo because of cost? or go check wikipedia for the info on Canada's wait on biopsies for women.

Jennifer, first of all go back and read my 10:23 post re 50 million bankrupted, I wrote "if," which means it is a hypothetical example. Second, what I am asking you is, do you think you could pay for your own family's health insurance if someone else wasn't subsidizing it. Dirigo would be about $14,000 a year including deductibles and co-pays, maybe more, I only know the cost for a single parent and two children.

I'm still waiting for you to clarify the whole 50 million filing bankruptcy over what time period a year or 5 or 10.

well anne I am not writing hypothetical situations to 'prove' my point I am talking facts maybe that is where I got confused with the whole 50 million thing. But again there are not 50 million US citizens uninsured in the US right now! The claim is at most 47 million and that includes illegal aliens who wouldn't be covered oh wait maybe they will be covered under universal health care. I certainly hope not.

it is more like 8 million and some of those US citizens CHOOSE to be without health insurance. That is their gamble to make last I knew.

Jennifer, I don't understand why you keep using the examples of the guy who was denied chemo or the poor people being deterred from getting eye-wear in other countries. You obviously don't care about whether people have access to health care or not. What do you think is happening in this country now? I use the figure 50 million because the 47 million is last year's number. Hundreds of thousands of people have lost their jobs this year, I assumed you knew that, and that for each policy holder there are usually 2, 3, 4 or more beneficiaries. Your notion that there are 39 million illegal aliens included in the 47 million figure is ludicrous.

You are correct unemployment is rampant right now. I also know the federal government has programs like Cobra available to the unemployed if they chose to continue coverage. And how many families qualify for medicaid due to the decrease in income? Lots! There have been plenty of articles about how states are crippled because of medicaid payments due to the shear number of people who are qualifying now.

Ludicrous huh? how many would you say were in it? Illegal aliens are a drain on the system. There are millions of them out there and they are counted in that number of uninsured in the USA although they shouldn't be. They were counted so it sounds so much worse than it is.

Jennifer, according to USA Today, 1/22/08, "Illegal immigrants represent about 15% of the nation's 47 million uninsured people," which would make it 7,050,000 illegal immigrants, not American citizens. You got it backwards.

Jennifer, I gave you detailed facts about Social Security and the Great Depression, and your response is "I still don't believe" and " I still don't agree." Conservatives on this site keep telling us that we liberals are just not smart enough to understand. However, I wonder whether the issue is that the first rule of modern conservatives is to simply believe. This is fine in matters of religion, but it is destructive of dialogue in political matters. Do you really want to think in an evidence-free zone? Are you willing to analyze your own assumptions? That is what free speech is about: not outshouting your opponent, but convincing them in reasoned debate.

Sadly, talk radio has had a dumbing down effect on its listeners.

As to the EITC, both you and anne_of_mdi are right. For a single person who works, but has no children, the credit amounts to a refund of the employee share of his FICA tax. If that person has children, the credit also includes amounts in excess of his or her FICA tax, largely because, when we ended AFDC, we wanted an incentive for parents with children to work. Think of it as a modest amount of money to keep that child from having no babysitter as his mom works. It is surely an investment in the future that we should all be proud to pay. I have no children, but I sure want to see a well-educated, well-fed workforce for our future.

Vichet, my business is doing just fine. Historically, GDP and the Dow have grown much faster under Democrats than Republicans for the last 80 years. Social spending has worked. Between 1928 aqnd 2008, Republicans have held the Presidency for exactly half the time. The NY Times did a chart of Dow performance under both parties last year and it was a resounding win for Democrats. Check out eriposte for a similar analysis of GDP growth from 1953-2001 and it makes the same showing as to Democratic Presidents. Can we talk evidence and not beliefs, Vichet? If you want a low tax state with a minimal safety net, go to Mississippi.

My family has lived in Maine for over 235 years. I am the last of my line to live here. The others were quicker and smarter and left years ago. Thank you for the Mississippi suggestion. Actually my kid has been campaigning for North Carolina. Keep the exodus moving along Fausto... just show people you disagree with that big bridge in Kittery.

Ah, Vichet, you ignore the evidence of Democratic/Republican stewardship of the economy and engage me only on my closing riposte. Understand that low tax states such as Mississiippi get more in federal tax dollars than they ever pay in. North Carolina is beginning to prosper because it has built a great public education system.

If your business is doing just fine then you are probably are in the social service field or tied in with government spending somehow.

Not at all... that graph is nothing new it has been that way since WW2. Give me something i dont already know.

Vichet if your business is struggling it might help if you take some business management classes. Is your business one that lends itself to innovation? Perhaps if you explored more options and you could increase your income.

'we' may have ended AFDC but in it's place is TANF which here in Maine is NOT just for a limited time like it was supposed to be. Aid for Families with Dependant Children or Transitional Aid to Needy Families it is all the same. EIC was implemented long before AFDC was 'done away with'. Nice try though.

Gee all this talk about doing for others....maybe we should federalize college and everyone can get a free education some people can't afford college even though the Government says they or their parents can.

I do not believe that the New Deal is what got us out of the Great Depression. It had more to do with WW2 and all the manufacturing that was going on to provide things for the war effort like tanks, planes, munitions, guns etc.

Social Security is a fine program that the Government sucks off. They have all but emptied the Soc Sec trust fund all to fund other projects. How many times have we heard that Soc Sec is going to be nonexistent in the year 20 whatever due to mis-management by the federal government? Social Security is the mother of all mismanaged retirement accounts. The government immediately spends most of our Social Security contributions on current retirees. Were other retirement plans to do that, it would constitute an illegal Ponzi scheme, in which money from new investors is used to pay off old investors.

The Social Security contributions that do not get spent on current retirees are commingled with general funds, going toward government salaries, departmental budgets, pork-barrel projects, foreign aid, and the many other things that the government spends money on. Not a penny of it is ever saved for workers' retirement. In the private sector, that would be grounds for certain conviction.

anne you are a good one to be giving business advice to Vichet. maybe if you explore more options you could increase your income and buy some health insurance!

On 2/13/09 at 01:50 PM, anne_of_mdi wrote:

Vichet if your business is struggling it might help if you take some business management classes. Is your business one that lends itself to innovation? Perhaps if you explored more options and you could increase your income.

Vichet, I take not a dime of government spending. My clients are individuals for the most part. I have always done better under Democrats, but take the necessary precautions when the Rs take power. When Bush came into power, I moved parts of my 401(K) portfolio into European and Pacific rim economies, as I could see that this halfwit was going to depress the dollar's value. Had I realized that Bush's zeal for a hands off approach to Wall Street would be as fervent as it has been, I would have poured more money into municipal bonds. Yes, my investments have taken a hit, but the Dow always rises under Democratic presidents. Four years from now it should be back to 1400.

Actually Anne it is a constant..,. We are always learning new things and ways doing things. Every Day. Its a process. Nothing in life is static Anne except maybe if you are selling those baskets you weave at the group home on e-bay.

Long-term investors rarely lose money in the stock market. We've already lost the money we put into Social Security. The government had a moral and legal obligation to save Mr. X's money for Mr. X. And it failed. Without a stock market crash or an economic collapse and despite the good intentions of thousands of well-educated government officials the money disappeared.

I voluntarily put into my 401K roughly the amount I am forced to contribute to Social Security. And yet conservatively speaking my 401K will perform just as well if not two, three, even four times better over time. And that's not even considerin the 401K contributions made by my employer. I have lost money with the stock market being what it has the last year but I imagine that in 30 years when I retire there will be more money in my 401K than soc sec for me.

Jennifer, it must be nice to have an employer who pays for your health insurance and matches your 401(k) contributions. I hope for your kids' sake you don't lose your job, because then you might have to eat your words.

I did throw some savings into municipal bonds in 2001 and had been increasing that share of my portfolio. I also, about the same time, increased investments in Asian small markets. i didnt get out in time and took some hits there. I sold a bunch of large cap stuff about a year ago and am setting about 35% cash. Down but not out. Just as an aside I send a small amount each month to a outfit I found lasy year... Microplace (an e-bay company) that places small loans in, among other countries, Cambodia. I have about 25 small loans out to people there. I would recommend you take a look at this site microplace.com. You will not get a big return on investment about 1 1/2% but despite Annes' belief to the contrary it isnt always about the money. (but you cant do things like this without it)

Vichet why did you say this: "despite Annes' belief to the contrary it isnt always about the money"?

What words are those? I have savings to last me a while and unemployment would kick in eventually. Like I said before I have kids and if I had to I would swallow my pride and get in on the help that is out there for families. I am NOT against helping I am against providing and people who make welfare a lifestyle choice. I know people and work with people who have been on welfare, I think no less of them actually I give them a lot of credit for going through what they have to end up where they are. I think Fausto has a warped view of welfare and thinks it is for a limited time. It's supposed to be but it's not in Maine.

I am against providing insurance to people who chose not to have it. There are a lot of programs out there and more in Maine than other places for the uninsured.

Anne I am willing to bet you make more than I do and I know that I have paid out plenty for health care beyond my insurance payments out of my check. My oldest needed braces that cost me around $5000 after the insurance paid. That was over 2 years and was like having a used car payment so my child could have straight teeth so in one of those years I paid at least $9000 in health care costs between the insurance, 1/2 the braces, and co-pays due to surgery. If I can do it anyone else can. It is all about choices and priorities.

Jennifer, my family has medical expenses which we pay for. My son had braces which we paid for. I don't see your point. We are talking about insurance. Would you have been able to pay for the surgery if you didn't have insurance?

Because of your constant comments about my "money agenda" you have in more than one occasion accused me of having.

Jennifer, so much to say, so little time to say it. Look at GDP growth and unemployment figures for the 30s and don't just spout opinions. I gave you detailed facts and deserve a factual rebuttal. Yes, WW II spending finished the job, but any type of government spending primes the economy. Sweden recovered the most swiftly from the Great Depression because it began the most serious Keynesian government spending.

As to Social Security, what would your 401K have bought you had you become disabled at 25 or died with children at 26? What is the safest investment known to the world, the one investment that every one comes to in uncertain times? U.S. Government bonds. That is what the trust fund is invested in. Had we not embarked on the ruinous Bush tax cuts, we would have built up a surplus over the last eight years that would have made all this right wing noise about Social Security seem silly. The shortfall in Social Security is at least 30 years away, and is easily remedied by FICA taxes on income over $250,000. The EITC has been expanded over the years because we thought it right to reward work. It was expanded again with the abolition of AFDC.

Fausto, "GDP growth and unemployment figures for the 30s " you are not implying that is the only method to measure the economy are you. If that is the case then you must consider the last eight years the greatest in a long time. If I remember unemployment still never got out of the double digits till WWII. Roosovelt own money man said in 1939 that they had spent and spent and it had not helped. That was the point man on a bulk of the New Deal saying it didn't pull them out.

The shortfall in Social Security is at least 30 years away, and is easily remedied by FICA taxes on income over $250,000. Fausto. What is the source of your data on this? If you have time... just a site ...thanks.

The ruinous Bush tax cuts kept revenue up even after 9/11. If they are so ruinous the why would Obama keep them for half of his term as President?

anne when you say nobody is getting back more than they pay in ,it makes me realize that you know of noone who qualifies for earned income credit. you should really get out and see whats really going on with the people that you say you support.

See that there is a big gap in posts here, for 3 hrs or so. Think people were not able to access letter section. Maybe I am wrong about this. Maybe everyone just got busy!

I called the BDN and sent tech dept there some emails.....seems it is now resolved (at least for now.) When that happens one can access the current (only current, though, as far as I could tell) day's letters by the following html:

http://bangordailynews.com/detail/99379.html

but many probably already knew this.

I notice that anne doesn't like to answer questions. Heck I asked tons today and she couldn't be bothered to say anything other than someone had to be subsidizing something at my house or making up hypothetical situations. She does like to tell me that everything I post is 'fiction' which she may as well call me a liar. Sad thing is I provided sources of the information and well that was ignored.

No response to Soc Sec being a big Ponzi scheme.

Know what is sickening:

"Texas Congressman John Culberson says they had to rush to vote because Nancy Pelosi was taking an eight-day trip to Europe to meet the pope and get an award. So far no one in Pelosi's office has come out to deny this."

I thought the dems had promised 2 days to review this bill? They didn't even have 12 hours to review it and then they voted on something that they didn't have a clue what was in it. I feel this is exactly what is wrong with our government. How can people we voted to represent us say that they really represented our interests when there wasn't even time to read the bill or have someone else read it and be briefed on it BEFORE casting a vote? and all so Pelosi can go on a freakin' vacation? Nice huh!

* $14 billion for one-time $250 payments to Social Security recipients and veterans receiving disability and pensions.

These kinds of cash injections are considered high "bang for the buck" payments, since the recipients are unlikely to put the money in savings.

"People who are incredibly cash-strapped are going to be spending what they get right away," said Josh Bivens, an economist at the Economic Policy Institute. "These are people who go paycheck-to-paycheck, so it goes right back into the economy."

Don't forget the 14% increase in foodstamps.

I know it is far from a stimulus plan, might as well call it a spending bill or another budget. I don't understand why 88 million to move offices in 2010 for the Dept of ??? it escapes me at the moment, anyway why that isn't in the budget for 2010? Stimulates the economy how to have that in the stimulus bill now?

Duckwa, read my post at 2/12 at 5:20 p.m. re the Great Depression, GDP, Morgenthau and unemployment. Please note that unemployment rates were measured differently then. Because we now exclude discouraged and minimally employed workers from the currently used rate, the adjustment factor ia about 1.5 fo make a proper comparison, i.e., 6% in 2009 equals 9% in 1936. Actually, if you read the monthly reports, there is something called the U-4 rate (I may be wrong on the label) that includes discouraged and minimally employed. The media never post that rate.

Job growth under Bush has been the worst since Hoover. Clinton vs. Bush is an embarassment for Bush n terms of job growth and GDP growth. Clinton raised taxes and Bush cut them. Don't focus on tax revenues, but taxes as a percentage of GDP; that automatically adjusts for economic cycles. Tax evenues under Bush have dropped to a low point as a percentage of GDP and we have not generated a revenue surplus that would be handy as we face an economic crisis. Such an accumulated surplus would have been nice to be able to spend to more quickly pull us out of the current recession. I save during good times to weather the bad. Our government should as well.

Vichet, it is late, and I will give you the site for Social Security info at a later time. Don't Jennifer and Ladyslipper embarass you with their illogic? The right needs more thoughtful people such as you and Duckwa.

I also appreciate the posts, many times, of duckwa and vichet. I may view things quite differently than they do, politically speaking, but they are always informative and make carefully thought out comments. I may come at things from a different place, but I respect their approach and their being open to consider another point of view. When they disagree with someone, they are fair and hardly ever stoop to insults and name-calling.(I say hardly, as we are all human.)

anne should be embarased for not knowing people do get more money back from the government than they pay in talk about out of touch. Just because I don't agree with you I am illogical? Please! A liar and illogical all in one day.

Ladyslipper, the Senator's last name is Specter. Your party is headed to a permanent minority status. Had you read and understood my earlier posts, you would have an understanding of Keynesian economics, which even the Right's hero, Milton Friedman, agreed was correct.

Jennifer, I have never called you a liar. Your are simply misinformed, and when corrected as to your facts, simply restate your beliefs. There are conservatives who can engage in logical debate on the national scale, George Will being one example. When he has been fed misinformation by Rush Limbaugh, such as the claim last year that China was drilling for oil off the coast of Cuba, he has quickly apologized in print. He is not a parrot. Sadly, you and Ladyslipper are. I will feed you no more crackers. To do so is to cast pearls before swine. Matthew 7:6

I also read and listen to conservative George Will, even though I am not a conservative. He provides great analysis, too, on Sunday mornings on ABC with George Stephanaoupolis. He had President Obama to his home in Maryland a month or so ago along with conservative David Brooks of the NY Times, and others. That also tells you something. I found it admirable.

fausto reading your posts make my since crawl. i work with a guy like you he's really inteligent without an ounce of common sence. how are they misinformed? is it because they didn't get there information from some high school english teacher with asperations to write for the times.

fausto wrote:

Don't Jennifer and Ladyslipper embarass you with their illogic?

Then chersully writes:

When they disagree with someone, they are fair and hardly ever stoop to insults and name-calling.

So it is ok when fausto insults people chersully? But not ok for others to do it right?

Fausto I never said YOU called me a liar. Anne did twice and I proved that what I posted was indeed accurate. No apology or acknowledgment that she was wrong though of course.

i mispelled a bunch of words will you correct my paper

9:47 AM..Maybe you did not catch it....a post (before fausto's) made a dig about "embarassment"....Fausto picked up on that and cleverly sequed into making her point.(She, fausto, used it as a taking-off point.) She wasn't mean-spirited as the previous person had been (your sidekick). You do not seem to pick up on what is really insulting. Perhaps nuance and subtlety passes you by.

"Segued", rather.

Fausto: as we know, Anne did not call you a liar, but I am sure Anne could speak to that.

Oh, rather it is being said that Anne called someone a liar....twice. I made an error (gee, guess I am human.) I misread it.....my apologies.

Fausto, seven or eight months ago I provided the coast of Cuba drilling data. I presented in graphic form the leasing and drilling rights map to the North Coast of Cuba. My sources for this map were the Havana Times that reported a joint China-Cuba venture. Cheney was premature in his announcement at a Chamber of Commerce meeting that China was drilling off the coast. It had obtained only "exploration rights". China had placed an order for several rigs to be built at the time. This was in late 2006. A European-Brazilian consortium that obtained a similar lease at the time has built an exploratory rig and was moving it into place in the 4th quater of 2008. (I wonder if they stopped because of the drop in price of oil. I have not seen any further news). China is of course not yet ready to pull oil out of the Carribean cost effectively, as thier newly built fleet of supertankers (some single hull) are too large to fit though the Panama Canal and would have to travel around South America. Hutchison Whampoa , The Chinese company that operates the Panama canal for the country of Panama has lobbied to widen the Panama Canal. A vote was held in October 2006 and the Panamanian people gave the green light and it passed. They are spending $5.25 billion dollars to widen and deepen the canal. A Chinese company has won the bid to do the job. I have non-specific information that a US company has won a contract to bulld the new Railway. One imagines that when the different pieces of the puzzle come together they can cheaply pull oil out of the carribean including that from thier leased properties. On the web it is sometimes hard to get through all the extremist propaganda. To get the information. So I feel I should let you know the varying sources for my information. Havana Times, Brookings Institute. National Geographic. a book by Parag Khanna of the New America Foundation.

Ladyslipper, why would my house be a mess because I'm posting? What an odd thing to say. You seem to have a very limited imagination.

Jennifer, so the EITC law has changed in recent years, during the Bush administration. Big deal. It's been a while since I was eligible for it. I should be embarrassed for being wrong about one thing? Then you must be really embarrassed about being wrong about everything. I didn't see any mea culpas from you about getting your stupid illegal alien number backwards. Is that something Rush spoon-fed to you too?

Speaking of which, I just saw a great video entitled "Anatomy of a Smear" about how Rush's lies get fabricated. This is the one concerning how the government is going to be telling your doctor how to treat you. I know you all hate Olbermann but if you check it out it might give you pause: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNnEPs1bIhE

P.S. Fausto, that was fun celebrating the stimulus last night! Let's do it again soon, how about when Bush and Cheney get impeached? Oh, and Bob says hi.

ladyslipper, that "mouse" story has been debunked all over the internet. You seem to be aggressively stupid.

" how about when Bush and Cheney get impeached" I didnt know these two were still in office?

Indicted then, and thrown in jail. Happy now?

Just was wondering if the 22nd amendment of the Constitution had been repealed, Four years had passed, There had been a new election which Bush-Cheney had won. Some new "high crime or misdemeanor' had been committed, Congress had handed down an indictment and you were awaiting a US Senate trial verdict. I am happy to hear you admit you don't know what the hell you are talking about!! I thought I lost a few years. Phew!!

hooray for you vichet. enjoy your victory.

As you get older ....those years count more.

I don't listen to rush can't stand to listen to him! As far as being wrong on the numbers, so I transposed them BFD.

The EIC was changed years ago and it wasn't Bush that made it a refundable credit. From my research it has always been a refundable credit. My point is before telling someone that they are posting fiction it might behoove you to do a little research.

Jennifer I would like to know what you are smoking. So what about your little doctor myth? Where did you hear it?

You just keep setting them up, ladyslipper, I'll just keep knocking them down. Here's your mouse story, a complete fabrication: http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/stimulus-package/pelosi-staff-conservative-talking-point-about-30-million-for-mice-is-fabrication/

“There are no federal wetland restoration projects in line to get funded in San Francisco,” Pelosi spokesperson Drew Hammill said. “Neither the Speaker nor her staff have had any involvement in this initiative. The idea that $30 million will be spent to save mice is a total fabrication.”

anne I am glad you admitted to eitc, but i had friends 20 years ago in the military getting more back than what they had paid in. this just didnt happen in the last eight years. im not defending rush but it sounds like drudge and cnn also repoprted on this . so why are you throwing this out ? nobody on line here quoted this. how many times did dan rather report wrong and stand by his statement. dont go to one source and think its the gospel.

shockin, Saltoria made the statement 2:36 on 2/12. I know you realize that people pay a lot more in taxes than just income tax. believe what you want.

No. That isn't what it says. The jury is not out. Are you hoping that people reading this will believe you and not read the article? Here's what it actually says, so there will be no confusion:

>>snip first 7 paragraphs >> The [GOP] staffer held to the claim that the mouse money would ultimately be spent, however, arguing that the bill’s passage would ensure that money would ultimately go to the unnamed agency. “If the bill passes, the project will be funded according to what the relevant agency told our staff,” he said. “The bottom line is, if this bill becomes law, taxpayers will spend 30 million on the mouse.”

But Pelosi’s staff disputes even this point, arguing that the only projects being referred to here are federal wetland restoration projects — and that this wasn’t even Pelosi’s project to begin with, despite claims about “Pelosi’s mouse.”

“There are no federal wetland restoration projects in line to get funded in San Francisco,” Pelosi spkesperson Drew Hammill said. “Neither the Speaker nor her staff have had any involvement in this initiative. The idea that $30 million will be spent to save mice is a total fabrication.”

http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/stimulus-package/pelosi-staff-conservative-talking-point-about-30-million-for-mice-is-fabrication/

Vichet, the end of a President's term does not end the possibility of impeachment. As one of the punishments for conviction is the disqualification from any further federal office, impeachment technically is always available. We know it won't happen, but it is not impossible.

As to China drilling off the coast of Cuba, Cheney and Will both picked up the myth from Limbaugh. Both stated that China is drilling. I research my posts better than either of them researched their speeches/columns. "Is drilling" is enormously different from possessing drilling rights. Indeed, during the entire "Drill baby drill" drivel Democrats patiently pointed out all the unused leases that Big Oil already had in the Gulf. Will retracted. Did Cheney? Soon to be Senator Franken wrote an entire book about Limbaugh's lies, yet the Right continues to embrace this embarassment. Republican congressmen repeat his misinformation on the House and Senate floors. The Right really has to clean up its act if it doesn't want to disappear into irrelevance. The latest Research 2000 poll shows 31% approval and 61% disapproval ratings for the GOP. The Democratic numbers are 56% approval and 37% disapproval. If the GOP doesn't move to the center it is doomed.

Finally, you asked for a cite for Social Security being funded for 30 more years and only modest adjustments being necessary thereafter. Check out Paul Krugman's column in the Times on 3/28/08. Krugman says even the 2042 trust fund depletion date is based on unduly pessimistic assumptions about future economic growth.

anne i just read what saltoria said on 2/12, it took me a while but i can see how you could compare this to the oberman video. he never quoted rush, i believe his meaning is that if the goverment controls the money they will control the decisions. take social security for example how many times have the rules changed since you began contributing.

back to talking about income taxes. i wanted to make sure you knew that this wasn't something new. you admit your wrong earlier but then say its bushs fault because it changed on his watch. now you say there are other taxes, yes i realize this, but again just admit you were wrong without a yabut.