With the rest of the TARP money to banks; where is the reduction of interest rates on credit cards to those banks the American taxpayer gave money too? Where is the ability to re-negotiate a home loan with a sub-720 credit score? Where is the reset of all Adjustable Rate Mortgages (ARM) to 4.75% for 30 year fixed? Banks are just playing the American people for "Chumps", threatening complete destruction of the financial markets unless the American taxpayer keeps feeding them cash. I hope all these banks get nationalized, overhauled and recalibrated, then sent back to the public for stock offerings.

What about jobs, housing and credit? This is a bunch of spending and stupid tax credits. This bill won't do crap because it is crap. They should have called it the crap stimulus bill - at least everyone would have been clear on what they were voting for. Obama has an obvious plan - he's going after banking, business, healthcare, education, and the media. Whoever accepts any of this federal money will be on the downhill slide to socialism. Thanks to our delegation for going "across the aisle" on this!

Both parties are at fault for allowing their special interest buddies to play a major role with the additions of so much pork barrel spending, which will now place a huge debt on our future generations. I wonder if our delegates actually kept track of the pro versus con telephgone calls and email messages they have received from us taxpayers? Did they really listen to the people, or did they simply do what their special interest group friends and campaign supporters (e.g., labor unions) told them to do?

They voted on something they never read.

Would you sign a contract if you didn`t read it? of course not. But then again they are playing with your future and your grandkids future.

We are going to have to remember this vote when it`s election time. May Snowe be the first to fall

well byn....may as well try a little socialism....seems to me capitalism hasn't worked too well now has it......they all go begging the govt for money when they get into trouble....

HOw wonderful to see our Senators rising about it and supporting this bill. They must have been under great pressure to cave into the Republican agenda. I'm glad they didn't. At least we know that they are willing to work as bi-partisans.

Ladyslipper, he's actually signing the bill in CO.

We are paying the price for corruption running rampant in goverment and business. We are all to blame for letting this happen. It appears that our country is at a crossroads and is taking the easy way out. We all better figure out ways we can change this type of thinking over time. Hopefully it is not too late..

There is plenty of blame to pass around. Starting from the White House to all of us. Its time to stop blaming and fix the problem.

Sorry

Time to lay blame and get rid of the problem representatives first. You CAN NOT correct the problem and keep the problem makers. Believe it or not it is your representatives that are part of the problem. Pull your head out of the sand and splash cold water in your face. OK Awake now? Good.

Time for Collins, Snow and Michaud to go. They are the same old thing we have had for way too long. I for one will never forget their vote on this one. They crossed over because they feared their future would go in the pit if they did not stand with Obama.

Ask any and all of your reps if they read this before they voted for it? Your great president refused to give them time to read it. obama did not even read it, and he did not write it! (Surprised?)

As I heard yesterday on the news, this is a Nancy Pelosi bill and I can guarentee you an acient relic from San Fransisco does not have my best interest at heart.

They want that train from Vegas to San Fransisco???? Let Pelosi spend her multi miullions she has made on lobbiest, special interest groups and the taxpayer to put the rails in. NOT a person from Maines hard earned cash.

Next time elections come around. Stand up instead of say Oh well we can not do any worse. Proof is on the table we can and will do worse until the people of this state take a different track. TRhat track does not follow obama and his cronies.

We've lost our way in America. Instead of taking accountability for mistakes, we just spend, spend, spend. It doesn't matter if it's the citzens or the government. We have to save everyone, bail everyone out. Buy a $600,000 house on a $50,000 income? Well, that's not your fault. Blame the bankers, blame the economy. Lose your job and don't have any emergency savings? That's not your fault, Uncle Sam will step in and save you. And the politicians have now committed generational theft and just stole 1 TRILLION dollars from our children and grandchildren. They don't care, though, since most of the Congressmen/women are in their 60's and 70's. The future of America isn't important to them. What is important is how many times they can get on MSNBC or FoxNews.

This spending bill is an embarassment. It will do nothing to fix the problem. But when the economy does finally turn around (which it would have on its own) Obama, Pingree, Snowe and all will jump right in and take credit. The corruption in Washington is too much. They're all dirty and they don't care about you or me. They just care about their pet projects and kick-backs.

Right on changeneeded!! Our children and grand children are going to be scratching their heads (and cursing us) as they pay this mess off.

Somebody got it wrong here, again. God forbid, The Obamas went back to Chicago (their hometown) on Valentine's Day night for a dinner out. That was it. Obama is going to be signing the bill in Denver this wk....think it is tomorrow.

At least get your facts straight! I notice a lot of facts about what Obama does or does not do, get distorted here. (not speaking of the stimulus bill at the moment.)

WHAT?? 9:17 AM..."They crossed over because they feared their future.........." Unreal......you mean to say all the other Republicans were not afraid to not "cross over" but those 3 were afraid??! (and so they felt they had to cross over for the sake of their careers!!) Does not even make any sense.

The Republicans didn't have any problem giving President Bush money hand over fist to fund a war we should not even be in. This stimulus is to help Americans, and now the Republicans drag their feet and try to do everything they can to stop it. They're all willing to fund a war in Iraq, but not help the American People. Disgusting! Anything McCain says I take as being bitter about his loss of the Presidency. The Republicans have NO interest in working together to solve problems, they're too busy creating them. Snowe and Collins should be applauded for having the courage to go against their own party for the good of the people. The others in their party are more interested in getting their own agendas across rather than remembering that they're there to represent the people. Are you people that are against the stimulus suggesting they do nothing at all???? Also, remember that the first stimulus wasn't used as it was supposed to be by the Bush administration, and that won't happen in the Obama administration.

Hey Susan and Olympia.

Let me know what your shoe sizes are so I can fit you with your Jack boots! Traders!!!

sunnie1959:

They want more tax cuts, and more deregulation....the same things as always. Seems like right now, we need to try and do something different.

I agree that there definitely is some bitterness in McCain over his loss of the Presidency...definitely.

As for the bailout of the banks: I am not an economist, and must honestly say , that one is not something I have completely worked out. Still trying to digest more about it.

What's wrong with this web site? I can't get into the Letters to the Editor. That's where the action is -- that and gay marriage, which is a topic I'm totally bored with.

Happy Presidents' Day everyone. It's nice to have a real president for a change.

Desert dweller, did you mean Snowe and Collins are Traders, trading their votes for favors, or Traitors, meaning they betrayed their supporters? Of course, many Mainers voted Obama/Collins, with the rationale that our two senators are not quite as unreasonable as the national Republican Party.

I've also noticed, just as an observation, that the Democrat posters on this site seem to have a better grasp of spelling and grammar than their Republican counterparts. Not that this means anything. A lot of really smart people are Republicans. Some of them helped Bush steal the 2000 election. Eight years later, they're trying to convince the rest of us that our current mess is Obama's fault.

Republicans put us in this hole but don't want Dems to get us out of it. They want the credit instead, but they had 8 years to get us out of debt and look where it got us, 8 years older and deeper in debt (paraphrasing Tennessee Ernie Ford). Spending now is the point of a stimulus package, to help with the problem, not to add to it. Would you trust a used car salesman who sold you two lemons four years apart or would you go to someone else and take a chance and a change. Well, the USA decided that in November and he still has big support from people who are following this closely. I expect more support for Dems in the next election when things have improved and the Republican opposition has egg on it's face. Me, I'll have a smle on mine. :-)

Bravo to the entire Maine delegation. I do not like Republican senators representing the State, especially pro-gun ones BUT Collins and Snowe came through for all of us. You have to be demented not to see Reagan and the Bushies for what they are. If this is class warfare, in the immortal words of 'W the Sot' "bring it on.

I cannot believe some of the comments here in favor of this stimulus bill. Have any of you actually read the bill or do you simply have blind trust in those you elect to office? Do any of you understand economics or how government spending/taxation works? I spent quite a few hours going over the 1107 pages of the bill this weekend. It's an utter disaster and there is very little in it which will actually stimulate anything in our economy, except to line the coffers of state and local politicians, labor unions and special interest groups. It isn't even what Obama wanted, which was a bill that was 1/2 tax cuts and 1/2 spending on infrastructure spending ONLY. READ THE BILL PEOPLE and you'll understand why your Senators and Specter were the only Republicans to vote for it. Your great grandchildren will be living dirt poor because they'll have to be taxed at 75% of their income to pay for this or the United States will have to default on it's debt. You cannot get out of a problem caused by excess debt and spending by incurring more debt and spending more. Unfortunately, as Obama seems to be going down the same road FDR did, which turned a serious 2-3 year recession into a 15 year depression, this time it will be far worse. Back then, we had 60% more industry, far less personal and public debt and few public entitlements. Folks, we are 65 trillion dollars in debt if you count unfunded liabilities! That is greater than the GDP of the entire world! The Republicans dug a huge hole and the Democrats are going to bury us in it. WAKE UP and stop being mindless idiots!

Oh and by the way, I am an actual economist and a registered Independent. I have no political stake in this debate. This is not a conservative/liberal/Republican/Democrat issue. This is a mathematics issue and the math doesn't work. Math knows no politics. Until folks realize they cannot trust either party and start thinking for themselves instead of blindly following those they elect into office, we will sink deeper into the morass. Hope you loyal Democrats have plenty of food saved and at least 10% of your money in gold and silver. You're going to need it.

heyyy pro, for someone that has no political stake in this debate, your sure ragging on the dems.....the three republicans that voted for the stimulus are the only smart republicans in congress....

It is very interesting to see how many people who are neither experts nor economists there are that KNOW that this bill will do nothing. Even those who have read the monstrosity...do they really understand it or are they making judgement based on no knowledge or study?

I blasted GW Bush and his blind followers the same way as they spent us into oblivion over the last eight years. Now it's the Dem's turn. I voted for Ron Paul in the primary and wrote him in for the general election. If more people voted their conscience instead of their party, we wouldn't be in this mess.

As for MuntJack, read the bill, study some basic economics and monetary policy, then you can slam me. Problem is, once armed with a little knowledge instead of blindly hoping for change, you'll be siding with those folks in both parties who are dead set against this bill.

Everyone, read it again....Chersully writes that the Obama's went to Chicago, their home town, because the wanted a dinner out on Valentine's Day---DUH, on Air Force One???? Hello, anyone home? Check out how much that baby costs to fly. He's been in office three weeks, how arrogant and pretentious can one be, right in our face. With the mess the country is in. Have a little class, Obama, just a little, even if you have to fake it. Why did the children and Mother-in law have to go along for this romantic occasion? LUDICROUS, and insulting our intelligence.

Elaine: Duh......the Bushes had their place in Texas to sometimes go to.....the elder Bushes had Kennebunkport, Reagan had his ranch in Calif,etc. The Obamas have chosen their hometown of Chicage as their place to sometimes go to.

How hypocritical.....your point is very shaky. It was all right when Bush went to his place in Texas (which he did fairly frequently and guess what....on Air Force One!) My, your point does not hold up. Amazing how you pick and choose but your "facts'' are off here. (or else you are being selective.)

Math is math Muntjack. 2+2 will always equal 4, no matter how much you hope it won't. But I'll give it a shot and see if I can educate you:

Take 10.7 trillion dollars in debt, add 56 trillion in unfunded liabilities (social security, medicaid and medicare) over the next 15 years, a near 1 trillion in trade deficits for four years running, .5 trillion in budget deficit last year, an estimated 2.5 trillion in budget deficits this year, an estimated .5 trillion in budget deficits in 2010 through 2012. Add that all up.

Where will the money come from to pay for all that? Our US treasury bonds are practically worthless. China and Japan, our greatest lenders, have reached their breaking point. Japan is even more bankrupt then the US so they won't buy our debt. China is already grumbling about buying more dollars and they only have about 4 trillion in reserves.

We're going to have to print the money out of thin air. That will lead to hyperinflation. So what do we do when a loaf of bread costs $20.00? Starve is the only answer. We have no money reserves left. The Fed has already lowered rates as afr as they can. They're at ZERO now. they can't go any lower. :) I suggest you read a bit on the Weimar Republic. That's where we're headed.

Now factor in the following: We have lost almost 60% of our manufacturing/industrial base over the last 15 years as companies move away to escape the second highest corporate tax rate in the world and take advantage of slave labor (and that was under Clinton my friends). We have become a consumption/spending economy instead of a production economy. Any Econ 101 course will teach you that only production economies are stable. Production means making things, growing things and mining things, exporting as much as you import. We now import nearly 65% of what we consume. In the 1930's we had a major trade surplus and only imported 10% of what we consumed. As we don't have that now, we're in deep trouble and New Deal spending policies will be the final nail in our coffin.

Watch the price of gold. We have entered a period of deflation. This will be followed by major inflation. The dollar will fall in value and prices will begin to rise. The Federal Reserve has used up all it's hold cards. It has no ammunition left. The only thing we have going for us is that many other countries are in worse shape than us. Look for more and more protectionist policies by the US and other countries. Gold will climb in value as the dollar falls as the two have an inverse relationship.

The stimulus bill does not create jobs; it creates work projects. When those projects are completed, the "work" will be gone. Only by stimulating businesses and encouraging investment in new industries can we create real jobs that last.

If you're really interested in learning rather than blindly trusting, I would suggest reading Market Ticker by Karl Denninger and Lew Rockwell's website.

"Everyone read it again"!!!

You insult my intelligence ,elaine at 2:29 PM

As for those who would say we'll tax the rich to pay for it all, guess again. The US takes in only 2.4 trillion dollars in taxes each year now and that's with the rich already paying 50% of their total income. The Congressional Budget office is reporting a 15% drop in receipts due to rising unemployment. The rich alone can't do it. It has to be all of us. By the way, the rich can easily move out of the country or use their foundations to escape our taxes. We can't.

If everyone in the US paid 75% in taxes each year, it would take about 200 years to pay off only half our debt with accumulated interest. We now work about 5.5 months out of each year just to pay all our taxes.

I must be myopic, could have sworn that's what you stated. Re-read it four times, said the same thing every time....was hoping for a 'change', but statement remained intact. So I cannot apologize.

How amusing. As you folks quibble over who flew what, when and where and wasted money, our government is busy keeping you divided so you won't realize how much freedom you're losing as they follow the path down to socialist nationalism. I would suggest reading Plato's Republic, Das Capital and Mein Kampf. We never seem to learn anything from history.

Based on history and ecomomics, aquapro is on the money (poor pun intented). When will we (collective "we") learn?

Yup, the Obamas went out to dinner in their hometown of Chicago. And yes, that is to be their place to go to now and then , as the Bushes went to their place in Crawford, Texas, Reagan to his ranch, etc., and all on Air Force One ! "Funny thing about that." Where was your outrage then......sounds very hypocritical to some of us. You strain credibility.

Bye.

aquapro: Yes, I have heard that over and over from the Republicans..."work projects." Could we hear something "original"! President Obama does talk about creating jobs in new industries, but you would conveniently overlook that, and any specifics you would just shoot down anyway. Auto industry jobs (bring back a lot of those), environmental related industry,etc. Some of you of the other political persuasion lose credibility sometimes as you shoot down everything. I do not recall that all the Democrats were completely negative about George Bush so early in his tenure as President. Obama has not been in office long at all. You aren't even open to giving it any kind of chance or benefit of the doubt. None. I find such rigidity hard to take seriously.

Cher, you are correct it is just sour grapes to bust on President Obama for Air Force one. It is not his problem that it cost a lot to move a President around, its just a fact of life.

aquapro, Informative and scary posts. Thanks.

I buy gold too, but not as an investment! It is a hedge against inflation and that is all it should be. Beware tying all your money up in gold and silver. Eventually, even if the economy collapses, it will eventually recover, the dollar will gain and gold/silver will drop like a stone. I recommend no more than 10-20% of total investments be in precious metals, and ONLy precious metals you can hold in your hand. Also, only buy gold paying cash from dealers who do not record the sale with the government. Remember that FDR confiscated gold when his policies drove up the price so he could recover wealth as he couldn't raise taxes - almost everyone was broke. If you purchase using cash and there's no record of the sale, they can't find your money.

Also keep in mind what got us out of the last major economic collapse - war. It was stepped up production during WWII that restarted production, exports and created jobs. Let's hope it doesn't come to that.

Speaking of history, here's a quote:

"We are spending more money than we have ever spent before and it does not work. I want to see this country prosperous. I want to see people get a job. We have never made good on our promises. I say after eight years of this administration we have just as much unemployment as when we started and an enormous debt to boot."

- Henry Morgenthau, Jr 1939 - Secretary of the Treasury of the United States during the administration of Franklin D. Roosevelt. He was also the father of Robert M. Morgenthau, the current District Attorney of New York County.

It took another seven years after he made that statement for the US to get down to 9.9% unemployment from close to 25% in 1931. Too bad GW Bush and Obama never actually read anything other than revisionist history about FDR and the New Deal. Bush never would have done TARP and Obama would have slashed payroll taxes instead of going for this boondoggle. But that's what we get when we whitewash over facts and then teach this stuff in our schools.

Unfortunately, Bernanke and Geithner both know darn well what really happened during the New Deal. Even Bernanke admitted under oath to the finance committee that the Federal Reserve caused the Great Depression. problem is, Bernanke was a Goldman Sachs man as was Paulson. Geithner was a NY Fed man. Who do you think they want to help? Us, or their best buddies in the banking system?

Cher, you had me on the Air force on thing but lost me on your last post. You are forgetting a lot if you don't recall the dem's jumping on Bush so early in office. I am debating still today on another page weather or not Bush was elected President. I have yet to see too many "Obama is not MY president bumper" stickers like we had then with Bush. I do think we need to give President Obama a chance, and he won the election and has the right to govern the way he chooses. With that said as his policies come out, such as this stimulas package, then people have the right and responsibility to assess the bill and judge it by what is in there. As we now actually have time to look it over, it does appear to be a lot of problems with it and its hard to expect people not to talk about them.

chersully2000: I'd bet a cool grand right now that you haven't read the bill. You are simply parroting what you've heard on TELL-A-VISION. You say "Obama does talk about creating jobs in new industries" but that is talk and talk is cheap. I doubt he's read the bill as no member of congress has read the whole thing. It took me two days just to get through 3/4 of it and I'm still reading.

Think about it. The bill was rewritten Thursday night with lots of things added or taken away and much of the language changed. The bill wasn't posted online until Friday afternoon. What's Obama been doing these past few days? Think he read it? Think his staff has even read it? Think again.

If you actually read the bill, you'd have a hard time finding any provision that actually has long term creation of new industry to create jobs or supports the auto industry. In fact, GM has to appear before Congress tomorrow with a viable plan or it goes bankrupt and it doesn't have that wrapped up. Chrysler isn't far behind. The most profitable auto company in the world is Toyota, and they're closing plants left and right. As for new industries, what new industries? The spending on new industry is for studies and research, not actual production.

And I'm an Independent not a Republican or Democrat. I voted for folks in both parties in the last election and even some third party candidates in local positions. As far as I'm conccerned, most elected Republicrats are the same animal; they both achieve the same results and only differ in how they arrive at them.

Again, I speak of math and the numbers don't add up.

Uhm and yes, chersully2000, Democrats began ripping GW Bush in the first month after he took office, just as Republican ripped Clinto in his and Democrats ripped GHW Bush in his and Democrats ripped Reagan in his, and Republican ripped Carter in his and so on and so on and ad infinitum.

But it's all the same. Republicans blindly follow theirs and Democrats blindly follow theirs and history keeps repeating itself and we keep making the same mistakes. Perhaps you're too young to remember the euphoria when JFK was elected. It was not much different than what we see with Obama today.

THEY ARE POLITICIANS FOLKS! They say what they need to say to get elected. Once elected, they do as they wish, until their last year in office when they switch back to saying what we want to hear again. Until we wise up to the game and stop taking sides, we must accept the fate we dealt ourselves. When times are tougher and things get rough, remember who you should really blame. Hint? look in a mirror.

okay aquapro: I hear you and you make some valid points. I actually do not watch tons of TELL-A-VISION, thank you very much.(you really do not know me and making assumptons here.) I find you talking about the "work projects" as parroting, isn't that odd? We all see it differently. And I also am no one to adhere to some rigid party line, and have voted other than Democratic in my lifetime, but yes I was/am glad about this last election.

duckwa: Thanks for your input and responses. I guess I just never ran into many of those signs you mention "Bush is not MY president"( bumper stickers, rather.) We all see it differently. You would be amazed at the flak I have taken (not from tons of folks though) for being an Obama supporter. All this talk I have heard (from anti-Obama people) about him being some kind of Messiah,etc. (because they don't get the enthusiasm and interest of some for him and call it naive,etc.) and my being told by someone who posts frequently here, that I am "infatuated" with Obama. I am sure you can understand that that is an "insult" to my intelligence. How do these people feel they can say what another thinks and feels (when they do not even know them.) I guess it is for purposes of discussion.

I read Obama's books about 3 yrs ago now. So when people who do not like him,etc. attack him for taking a little trip to his hometown of Chicago as Bush did to Crawford, altho' it might see a petty issue in the scheme of things (all the serious issues we face), I still find it notable (they do not even get their facts straight. One said he was going to Chicago instead of signing the stimulus) Give me a break.

yeah aquapro: I get you about the numbers. In a different context re numbers: My oldest son during the run-up to the election spoke of the numbers (states,etc.), and how he was quite sure Obama would be elected. He said the same thing to me election night when he called from Miami right after the election was called. He spoke of how the math had been there,etc., and how he had been "tracking" it,etc. Of course, there was no way to know for sure how Penn, Ohio,etc. would go till the end.....not even Obama really knew that. So, one can determine a lot by math and numbers, but it gets "messy" because there can be the unexpected.

Anyway, I respect the way you rationally express the points you make.

When will people realize that this mess is still politics as usuall.You cant fix anything without acknowledging where the broken parts are.Lets not forget that these people are supposed to be working for US.Would you all run your bussiness like the government runs the country? Dont think so.

ladyslipper: I think this administration is making another attempt at growing government. Like many before them, they think "they can get it right this time around" and avoid the mistakes the "other guys" made. Unfortunately, we're in way too deep to get out. The idea that deficits don't matter only makes sense if there's a plan afoot to forgive debt all the way around. Somehow, I think China, Russia, Middle Eastern nations and a few others will have a problem with doing that no matter what we want.

Jefferson may be turning in his grave, but Hamilton is having himself a big belly laugh.

If we dont secure the borders and start drilling for oil then nothing matters!

If I were a Republican I would be furious that my representatives either did nothing or "crossed over." The zero vote on the stimulus was a disgrace. Clearly they do not represent the people when they put politics over people. Anyone who voted "no" without offering an alternative should be thrown out. That's not why they're elected and not why they're living off the taxpayer's dime. Absolutely disgraceful.

ladyslipper: If you google Campaign for Liberty and go to their website, you can read all about Ron Paul. His articles are available at lewrockwell.com.

anne_of_mdi: Actually, the Republicans did offer up an alternative plan which was voted on in the House. It was voted down along party lines with only 9 Democrats supporting it (the same Blue Dog Dems that voted no). Same thing happened in the Senate. The Republicans were completely shut out of any input in writing the House bill and all but two of their amendments were voted down in the Senate. The Democrats own this one, all by themselves. They shut the Republicans out of the process. Only the (R) senators from ME were allowed any input into the final conference bill.

Historically, the last time this has ever happened was during the Johnson administration. No congress majority party since 1965 has ever effectively banned the opposing party from any input at all in writing a bill, and never for a spending bill of this magnitude.

Anne: So only Snowe, Collins and Specter were not "shut out"??!!! It doesn't even make any sense!

Anne: Go to the end of the site we were posting on yesterday (vichet,etc.) I wrote one thing today....saying I had not seen anything from you and vichet (well, except your one early today) and lo and behold.....there was a "real nice" (!!) one from shockin". Some don't get the message!! What is the issue there?!!

chersully2000 wrote: "Anne: So only Snowe, Collins and Specter were not "shut out"??!!! It doesn't even make any sense!"

No it doesn't, but that is the truth.

In the House on the first bill, Pelosi made a rule that there would be only one hour of debate and no amendments would be heard. The bill was written by House Democrats and the hour of debate was all the Republicans got. That bill was never read before it hit the Senate. Debate and amendments WERE allowed in the Senate version, but only two out of fifty amendments offered by Repubs were passed - along party lines. The conference committee for the final bill was 100% Democrat, and only Snowe, Collins and Specter were allowed to attend. Snowe and Collins were there for about an hour, Specter was there for 15 minutes. After those Senators left, the Dems continued modiffying the bill until it grew from 875 pages to 1107. The bill was then handed to all members of Congress at 11:00 PM, the night before the vote on Friday afternoon.

Obama made the mistake of trusting Pelosi and this has caused him some embarassment after he promised bipartisanship. I don't think he'll do that again. In fact today, his staff have hinted they may not enforce all the provisions his party wrote into the bill. Barney Frank is already up in arms about that announcement. I think from now on, Obama will do what Clinton did - have his staff write the bills and send them to the house. From there, the house can still modify them, but they'll be more careful not to tread on too many toes.

Anne, sounds like you are the one playing politics as usual. For one they did offer 2 alternatives that i know of, maybe more. Second, even though I will give you they themselves were not much better on spending the past eight years, I and many others are glad that they stood together against this bill that wasn't as much about stimulas as it was about putting through pet projects. I don't blame President obama as much as Pelosi and reed. His biggest mistake was letting them write the bill. At least the GOP'ers had the courage to stand up against what they didn't think was good for our country and vote against it. Contrast that to all the Dem's that didn't want to go into Iraq but were worried about looking bad if they voted against it, so instead of having the courage to vote against it they fall back on " he tricked us". The GOP'ers could have voted for it, and then if it turned out like the congressional budget office perdicts it will and it doesn't work or if inflation expands, then they could cry Obama tricked us when he said we had to vote in a hurry with out reading the bill.

On 2/16/09 at 06:18 PM, chersully2000 wrote:

Anne: So only Snowe, Collins and Specter were not "shut out"??!!! It doesn't even make any sense!

Cher I don't think that this point is debated. The gop was not allowed to offer admendmants and was left out of the conference meetings between the house and senate. Thats not just talk it is just the facts of how they did it. Look into it and you will fine what aquapro said was true.

The Republicans (or most) are going to say , if the stimulus works, that they are the ones to praise as they stood for some revisions,cuts,etc. If it fails, it will be, "I told you so."

chersully: I agree and disagree. If the plans work, the Repubs will lose in the mid-terms no matter what they say. If the plan does not produce results (unemployment rises and stocks fall more), the Repubs will gain a majority in the House in 2010. They can't gain a majority in the Senate until 2012. Regardless of which party you stand with, it is ideal that one party not rule both the congress and the executive. Checks and balances must be in place to protect all of us. IMHO, the two-party system needs to be looked at. It's time for a third party. Competition is good and breeds honesty.

aquapro: thanks for the informative postings! I hope you will continue to post often on this topic in the future as there is going to be a lot to stay on top of. I really enjoyed your info and insight! Thanks!

aquapro: What site is this available on. Thank you.

Rino (Republican In Name Only) Olympia Snowe said this: "The plan has provisions to increase direct cash payments to those out of work and the poor, has broad tax cuts, and has longer-term government spending on public works projects, education, health care, energy and technology. President Obama is expected to sign it this week."

Maine's two RINO senators, and Pennsylvania's Arlen Specter, sold out this country so as to be in favor with the Obama administration and the Socialist U.S. Congress. Republicans from all over this country put up campaign finance money to see to it that Maine was represented by responsible seantors, so that the republicans would have at least the power of the fillibuster in the Senate to try and curd the hard left swing to Socialism which is what anybody paying attention knew was what Obama and the Liberal U.S. Congress was up to with leadership from California Limo Liberal Nancy Pelosi, and Slick Las Vegas hustler, Harry Reid in the U.S. Senate. Then, these two dames from Maine sold us out, as did Specter.

This spending bill has nothing to do with a stimulus. This bill is something that the Far Left Liberals have had laying around for years waiting on the hopportunity to force it down our throats. The Democrats staged the October Surprise and crashed the market with their words, and sent the country into fear mode, after they saw that McCain and Palin were overtaking the Democratic Puppet Obama's lead. This worked and we sent $750 Billion to Wallstreet because the Democrats made the American Public believe that the Sky would fall without it. It worked, Obama won the election, and now the Perfect Storm of Socialism was ready to be spawned. Obama gets elected, and then, all of a sudden, The Sky Is Falling Again, and the Democrats pull out all their old socialist agenda, and dust it off, and say, here it is, complete with Pork to Fund Pet Projects of Harry Reid, an 8 billion dollar Bullet Train from, of all places, Hollywood to Los Vegas. Hollywood, California, the home of every Anti-American and communist in the United States, and Las Vegas, the Mafia Owned Sin City. Real necessary train, and I am sure it will have a Real Clean Carbon Foot Print, traveling at speeds over 100 MPH so that Hollywood's Perverts can get to Sin City in a hurry. And, good old Nancy Pelosi, who is heavily funded in Windmills in Pickens Plan, of course made sure that hundreds of billions also go to Fund Windmill Dreams of Pickens, and then there is the $4 billion to ACORN to pay them back for all the Illegal Votes that they drummed up for Obama. So, now that the paybacks to ACORN, Unions, and others are built into this so called Stimulus Plan, where does the money go. Hundreds of billions to Socialist States such as California that has huge multi billion dollar budget deficits run up by thier Own Socialist Regulate and Tax governments, and to other states, as a way of making states become more beholden to the Democrats, and as a way to take even more state's rights away, as the U.S. Government now can tell them how to run their states if they accept the bailout money.

And, now, here is the stickler, and what all of it is about. The expansion of the Federal Government Bureaucracy and along with it even more Federal Control over every aspect of every Americans freedoms. This has $135 billion to expand the U.S. Department of Education, which has been singlehandeldly responsible for having destroyed the public school system and dumbing down our kids while brainwashing them. This $135 billion is twice their annual budget and does not replace their usual $65 to 70 billion dollar budgets, all of which is needlessly spent, if you are relating it to actual public education in the sense of teaching academics. No, the U.S. Department of Education under this bill has expanded it's power over public education, and strips States and Communities of all power in public education. Public education was always intended to be a local and community concern and under states control and states rights. This bill strips the 9th amendment to the constitution, and puts all states under federal control, when it comes to public education. The leftists have wanted this for decades. It all started with LBJ and the Federalization of public education, when he brought in the troops to force federal laws on states in the 1960's. Then, another Socialist, Jimmy Carter, gave as a gift to the Teacher Unions that helped elect him in 1976, the U.S. Department of Education in 1978. After that, education went down hill fast as the federal government and the teacher unions subverted the educational process, and almost destroyed all local control including local norms of what is decent and appropriate in schools. They have dumbed down the kids over the past 40 years while at the same time brainwashing them into little mindless and irresponsible citizens who were dumbed down enough to elect Barack Obama. In 1966, we were #3 in the world for public education. Today, we are at #27 in the world while spending more than any other country. Was this an accident. No, it was not, Communist rule #13 states that in order to control a country and it's citizens, they had to control the hearts and minds of the children. Hitler knew this. Stalin knew this, and so has every other dictatorial government in history. The destruction and dumbing down of America is no accident, and now, with this Bill, public education is totally under Socialist Control from Washington D.C. Thanks, Senators Snowe, Collins, and Specter for selling out your country for political favor of Barack Obama, and your Fellow Socialist Limo Liberals in the U.S. Senate and U.S. House of Representatives. It was expected that Maine's and other states Democrats, for the most part would go along with this sellout, but it was not expected that these so called Conservative Republicans would have gone along with it, thus destroying the only Power that We, the People had, and that was the chance for a Republican Filibuster, that could have saved this country from this Fraud, Waste, and Abuse bill that they have forced on us. But, we will not forget you Senators Snowe, Collins and Specter. You will not win another election, and you will go down in history books as modern day Benedict Arnolds. I hope that the citizens of Maine who voted for you will burn up your phone lines and emails with their protests. And, this writer is also cranking up the machine against you, and you will not only hear from Mainers, you will hear from The Real Voices in this country, and you will be fought from every corner of this great country. But, on the other hand, thanks for showing your true colors.

So, yes, Senator Snow, we know that this plan has long range plans as you mentioned in health care, education, infrastructure, etc. and yes, we know what that means: Socialized Medicine, Socialized Education, and to make states beholden and under the control of the Federal Government if they take any Infrastructure monies. And, of course, you all are countring Infrastructure necessity, that Bullet Train from Hollywood to Las Vegas. What a country?????

aquapro:yeah, I hear you : Once again, interesting, and you make some good points. I do think checks and balances are very important too.(even if I am a Democrat and like Obama!!)

But, do not relate to what greyhawk writes. And also, I think he will be surprised. I do not believe it is so certain that Snowe, Collins and Specter will not be re-elected. I know that is what he hopes for, but it very well may not turn out that way. He sounds quite angry, which is his right. Let's put it this way.....I think there is a much greater chance that Olympia Snowe, etc, will be re-elected than that Sarah Palin will ever be President!

Snowe, Collins, Specter must have known they would incur the wrath of many , such as greyhawk. Apparently , they must believe in what they voted for and felt it was the necessary thing to do, as I do not believe they would jeopordize their careers knowingly.

I do not believe Senators Collins and Snowe made their decision lightly. I do not think they made their decision based on whether they would be re-elected again. Maybe hard for some to imagine a politician might take that risk.

I agree with cher that Snowe and Collins will both win again easy. Thats just the state we are right now. I didn't read greyhawk, so if he mentioned her I am sorry in advance, but cher I find it funny that I never hear the name Palin brought up, but by you. She really must have hit a nerve with you.

Duckwa, you're right, I was playing politics, because after all this article is about politics. I am happy to see a new and intelligent commenter here speaking up for the right, aquapro. I agree with aquapro about one thing, I don't think Obama will try for bipartisanship again. Yesterday one of the pundits said the passing of the stimulus was "a presidency in a box," meaning he got more initiatives passed in 3 weeks than any other president did in an entire term. It should be very interesting to see what initiatives pass now, now that the "bipartisanship" obstacle has been neutralized.

It was Ron Brownstein of The National Review, who made the "presidency in a box" remark Sunday on Meet the Press. It's funny because I just googled the phrase and of course the first hit was a seething right-wing opinion piece calling the show a "disgraceful Obama lovefest."

Like it or not, we are all going to have to get behind this stimulus if it's going to have any chance of working. I think of it this way: last year our furnace was diagnosed as having only a few weeks to live. (in January of course.) Even though we couldn't be absolutely sure that the furnace was going to die, and we really, really didn't want to spend $11,000 on a new furnace, we took out a loan and got a new furnace installed. There were a few kinks that had to be ironed out at first but now it's working well. If instead of working out the kinks we had said, this furnace sucks! We're not going to spend any more money to get it up and running! If we had had that attitude, where would we be now? Deeper in the hole? Without heat? Moved to a warmer climate?

duckwa: It is not the big deal you are making it (Palin). No, he, greyhawk, did not mention her. I was using it as an example (Palin.) She seems to represent that party for some here (not all of course) more than McCain did, that was all I meant.

"Hit a nerve"?! I would not put it that way. She is not important to me. She did not speak to me as a woman or in any way. So please do not try to read something into it that isn't there,as many do here. Enough about her.

I hope you have a good day.

Anne: Good and interesting posts from you (as usual) Loved your analogy...made sense to me and others, but of course not to everyone here.

Hope your day goes well.

Anne: I know what you mean. Obama had good intentions re bipartianship. Too bad the reality is something altogether different in Washington DC. Guess you learn the hard way! But I think you and I would agree on who (or whom) we think came out looking better.

Ok folks, a final footnote on this bill. The Congressional Budget Office, a nonpartisan oversight agency charged with tracking congressionals spending, has just released the final total cost of the bill over the next ten years.

$789 billion for the bill itself

$744 billion for interest and debt servicing

$2.527 TRILLION additional dollars in total for ten years for the new permanent spending programs created by the bill.

Total cost of the bill over the next ten years: 4.06 trillion dollars.

Sure hope it creates a lot of jobs.

Obama does not want bi-partisanship. Whoever heard of a bi-partisan dictatorship. The reason that Pelosi, Reid, and the rest of the DNC chose Obama as their Hand Picked Hand Puppet, is that they knew that they could take a full left assault on this country, and of course, much of this money is being spent directly in creating an even larger welfare state, in order to enlist more deadbeat voters who will continue to vote for those who promise to give them something for nothing.

But, of course, what Obama and his loony tune leftists do not realize yet, is that they are fully exposed now, and we are happy that they are showing their true colors and intentions so quickly. What they do not understand is that it has been industry and those who work in this country that keep this ship afloat. With the Obama Spending and Socialization Bill, they are killing the Goose that lays the Golden Eggs that Obama and his co-conspirators are planning to take. Without industry and without a work force who pay taxes, these tax, regulate, and spend socialists, will have nothing to draw from. They cannot print Monopoly money forever, and foreign nations, even our old Communist Buddies, the Chinese, are not going to buy into Obama's Socialist plan to turn this country into a Marx-French Style Socialist nation. There are too many Americans who did not vote for Socialism, and this 46 percent is a thousand times smarter and more industrious than all the idiots who voted for Obama. Obama may have center stage as he puts on his Dog and Pony show, but he is not fooling anybody except the fools who already adore him in the public sector and in the media, but the rest of us are sickened and disgusted with this Conspicuous Display of Arrogance and Narcissim, and the back lash is going to be more than Obama and the Socialists can stand, and even with all the Illegal Votes that ACORN drums up in the next off year and following elections. You all sit back and watch as everybody associated with this gang of Limo Liberal Socialists, gets defeated at every level of government. The Sleeping Giant, called the Silent Majority of hardworking, taxpaying, people with morals and family values are now wide awake, and we will do everything in our power to take this country back from these Communists. Obama is now and always has been a communist. The leftists in DC know this. Everthing in his background shows what he is, even his own ramblings when he has written things. Look at his heroes, and mentors: Alinsky, Ayers, Jeremiah Wright, Rezko and others Obama is dirty, sleazy, dishonest, and has zero integrity, and on top of this, he is and always has been a Marxist. End of discussion, and yes, Snowe and Collins are finished. They sold you folks and the rest of this great nation out, and you watch the campaigns against them the next time around. Republicans and conservatives from all over this country helped get Collins elected last time around, and look at how she repaid us and you sane folks in Maine. As for you liberals in Maine, you are just like liberals anyplace else. You are suffering from a serious mental disorder, and likely will not recover your senses, as you are probably, for the most part, deadbeats living off the government in one for or another anyway, So, you are already a lost cause. No sense in even commenting on anything you say or on anything that you say your know or believe. That would be akin to dueling with an un armed man.