Educators have a choice — allow teens to nod off or sleepwalk through the first hour of their school day or start high school at a much more civilized hour.

For years, teachers, parents and teens themselves have made the case that adolescents have a biological clock that keeps them wide awake until midnight and able to sleep soundly to noon. A number of studies have confirmed that this awake-sleep cycle is not some form of youthful defiance but in fact physiological.

So why do high schools often schedule homeroom for 7:35 a.m.? To make the bus in that schedule, high school students must rise at the ungodly hour — for them — of 6 a.m. or earlier.

One of the reasons often cited for the early start is that afternoon daylight hours are needed to accommodate after-school athletics. Increasingly, though, soccer, field hockey and football are played under lights at Maine high schools when the sun begins to set earlier in early November.

Another reason, probably a throwback to decades ago, is that early-start, early-release allowed teens to get an after-school job.

But put those arguments against what many experts see as facts that come with the early start: poor student performance, tardiness, missed school days and behavior problems. One small, rural, regional high school in Eastham, Mass. began starting school at 8:35 a.m. in September. A report examining the efficacy of that change — more than an hour later than last year — shows remarkable results.

According to the Cape Cod Times, data from the first two months of the school year at Nauset High School has been gathered and it is compelling. There was a 53 percent drop in the number of failing grades from the previous September and October, the school found, from 221 to 104. The number of Ds and Fs also dropped, from 597 to 368.

In September and October 2010, when the earlier start time was in effect, there were 166 student suspension days at the high school. Last fall, that dropped to 19 days.

Principal Tom Conrad had been advocating for the change for years, the paper reported. “I think the tone of the day has changed dramatically. That’s reflected in the overall [mood] of the student body,” he said. “Students seem to be more alert and they don’t seem to be rushing to get to class within seconds of getting to school.”

The school had hoped to also reap transportation savings with the change, but that has not materialized.

Since elementary-school-age children are typically wide awake earlier than teens, it makes sense to switch the schedules so lower grades start earlier. But tardiness jumped at the district’s elementary and middle schools for the first two months. Speculation by school officials is that parents, many of whom drive their children to school, were still adjusting to the time change.

One expert on teens, Dr. Mary Carskadon, says they need 8.5-9.5 hours of sleep each night, and since most don’t get that, they live in a continuous state of jet lag, as she describes it. Starting high school later is a low-cost way to make a difference in educational outcomes.

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101 Comments

      1. But,but, but, if my son’s circadian rythm isn’t the same as your son’s and her son’s and so on and so forth…….. how do we accomodate everybody’s circadian rythm??

         Does this mean that each child will have to have their own teach…….

         Oh, wait a minute……..  are you with the Maine Teachers Association?

        1. Well, the education Commissioner was talking about attempting to tailor education more to the individual…What better way to start than to let students pick their, um, start time?

          1. I would all but guarantee that if you start school later, kids will stay up even later, and also, the kids who are late to school all the time will STILL be late to school.

      2. It’s this type of nonsense that makes me fatalistic about the future of our country.  Do you think our global competitors like Japan, China etc are coddling their kids.  They would look at this editorial and rub their hands in glee appreciating how weak we’ve become.

    1. They’re still going for the same number of hours, just starting an hour later. What’s the difference.

      I think it’s a good thing: A 7:30 start is ungodly

    2. agreed. this is yet another step in that direction. what the heck, let them sleep til noon. no more red pen marks as it might hurt their self esteem. everyone gets a trophy just for showing up. on and on and on.

      1. We often underestimate the value of sleep, often to our detriment and to the detriment of others. Sleep has restorative value. Without sleep, we will die.

        No two people need the same amount of sleep. Some can function on four or five hours of sleep. Others need more than eight hours. Newborns require more sleep than adults. Likewise, adolescents require more sleep thanadults. This may be because the brain solidifies neuronal connections during sleep.

          1. Franklin has been supplanted by the attitude.

            Late to Rise, late to bed.

            Learn dependence, sloth and dread.

    3. It is idiocy to start school so early in the day.  Bad for the students.  Bad for the teachers.  Few must milk cows before going to school.  (And cows do not have to be milked before the crack of dawn either — even they like a later milking).  This is the 21st century – at least according to the clock — why is there ‘honor’ given to following rules that should have been abandoned long ago?

      1. Are you for real?  Some kids have to milk cows before going to school so lets have the other kids sleep for a couple of hours while all of the kids that live on the dairy farm go milk the cows. Ha ha, you are a funny person.  Now get up, its 7.40am

  1. Many people dismiss the need for sleep, and the effects of sleep deprivation, as matters or willpower or even silly jokes. But the evidence is now compelling that sleep deprivation in our teens is not only dangerous and counterproductive but that it’s linked to the extremely early school start times that begun several decades ago, largely to save $ on bus runs. Of course, early school hours aren’t the only cause of sleep deprivation, but they play a major role, and a role that can be changed. StartSchoolLater.net is a growing national coalition of health professionals, sleep researchers, educators, parents, and other concerned citizens who are working to ensure school hours compatible with learning and health for all children. We invite those who agree to sign our petition ( http://bit.ly/tWa4dS ) asking for minimum school start time, a first step that will make it easier for local schools to prioritize children’s interests when they set their particular schedules.

    1. My mother had to be at Bayridge High at 7AM the school day started at 7:15.  That was the 1930’s. White Plains High wanted us in Homeroom at 7:45.

      Up till the Carter administration, schools were soley  local institutions so start times were different.  A national mandate for a given time is more big-government clap-trap and my experience with children does not justify this change. 

      I suggest that maybe it is adults who do not wish to get up with their children, be sure they have a good breakfast, and see them off properly.

  2. Good policies are based on good information – not misconceptions or anecdotal information. When it comes to setting policies for school start times, districts need to understand that the research is crystal clear – early high school start times impact a teen’s health and ability to learn. My son’s high school starts at 7:10, his start time is among the earliest in the country and I can say with absolute certainty that it impacts his health. We are good parents and he goes to bed early every night – but his biology is changing and he lies awake until 10:30 or 11:00. For many kids, going to bed early isn’t a solution. I am proud to say I signed the petition on the “Start School Later” website. I hope others will too: http://www.startschoollater.net/

    1. Your household sounds remarkably like mine.  My kids are on the curb at 6:45 am for the bus.  They are exhausted everyday.  I’ve been complaining about this insanity for years.  To deaf ears… 
      With all the homework they assign, my kids stopped playing sports just to have a little bit of down time.  The absurdity of it is laughable really.  No private schools close enough or we’d have switched.

    2. The research is NOT clear.  Time is a man-made concept.  What real natural factors  cause the problem you are addressing.  Basing this argument on “time” of rising and “time” of going to bed is obviously a poor way of explaining it to us lay people.

      1. The research is clear: Kids today are not getting enough sleep. Starting school later would give them the opportunity to get more sleep.

        1. “Starting school later would give them the opportunity….”    To stay up later in the evening.

  3. Good policies are based on good information – not misconceptions or anecdotal information. When it comes to setting policies for school start times, districts need to understand that the research is crystal clear – early high school start times impact a teen’s health and ability to learn. My son’s high school starts at 7:10, his start time is among the earliest in the country and I can say with absolute certainty that it impacts his health. We are good parents and he goes to bed early every night – but his biology is changing and he lies awake until 10:30 or 11:00. For many kids, going to bed early isn’t a solution. I am proud to say I signed the petition on the “Start School Later” website. I hope others will too: http://www.startschoollater.net/

    1. 7:10 AM?  I had no idea.  What the heck is the point of that?  Teachers must have to get to the school at 6 AM, and other staff even earlier.  What a crock of nonsense.

  4. This will just push  back the hour they go to sleep thus negating any benefit. However did students survive before this ?

  5. I remember when school had a schedule and the kids had to meet that schedule. Of course, back then, teachers taught and the kids were expected to learn. Times sure have changed. And with those changes, our kids have become lazier, more arrogant, more demanding, and stupider. Just another liberal victory.

    1. Back then, we weren’t as intelligent as we are now. Now we know the early start times are impeding learning.

      1. We know nothing of the sort.  This study was done for whom? by what group? How many subjects did they use. What were the constants? What were the variables?

        For years it was boiler-plate that 40% of body heat was lost through your head, and that wearing a warm hat could make your whole being 40% warmer.  Recently new studies have “proven” that old saw false.

        This junk science is just the study of the day, and I’m sure if I live long enough a study with a different outcome will emerge.

        1. This is not junk science, there have been many studies that show why and how sleep patterns change in adolescents. Also numerous studies that clearly show that early start times impact a teen’s health and ability to learn. FYI – I have searched the biomedical literature extensively using databases like PubMed Medline, CINAHL, and PscyINFO and I have never found a single study showing that early start times were good for a teen – but I found many that proved otherwise. See: http://greenfieldsleep.pbworks.com/w/page/15769273/Journal%20Articles

          1. “…..Although circadian rhythms are endogenous (“built-in”, self-sustained), they are adjusted (entrained) to the environment by external cues called zeitgebers, the primary one of which is daylight.”

            If you are saying that teens should only be educated under sunlight, I’ll be happy to entertain that notion.  If you say that our bodies, at any period of our lives react exclusively to the man made concept of time, I can surely and simply disprove that.

      2. Are you for real? What a ludicrous statement  “Back then, we weren’t as intelligent as we are now”….the intelligence level hasn’t changed, we are “more informed”. There is a difference between intelligence and access to information.

        1. Back then, we didn’t have EEGs to chart the stages of sleep. So no, we weren’t as intelligent as we are now, as we didn’t have the proper tools to study sleep.

          1. That is information not intelligence – you are truly ignorant of what intelligence is…..also EEGs have been around since the 1960’s – I had one back in 1970…..you really are clueless.

          2. From Merriam-Webster.com

            Intelligence: the ability to learn or understand or to deal with new or trying situations

            Before the development of the EEG, we did not have the ability to truly understand the distinct stages of sleep. The traditional school day’s hours were established long before then. Now we have additional tools to learn about sleep, such as functional MRI and video cameras.

      3. Back then parents actually parented too.  I wonder how many parents back in the day were ever heard telling a teacher or principal, “he just won’t get out of bed, there is nothing I can do”…I wonder if playing Xbox until 4am has anything to do with it.

    2. There are just as many conservatives in education as liberals. In fact, in my small town, I was guess that there are more conservative teachers than liberals since I live in a deeply religious town with 8 churches within a two mile radius. 

      1. Maybe in some small towns. Now, check out the lib to conservative ratio in the vast majority of colleges and universities. The libs have a shockingly big lead. And the colleges and universities are where the political and social mindsets are developed and honed in most of the students. 

      2. I wish that was the case in any school where I have worked.  The liberals vastly outnumber we conservatives.

    3. Politisizing every issue seems arrogant and stupid. How is this a “liberal victory”?  Calling kids lazy, arrogant, demanding, and stupider, doesn’t seem very helpful.

      1. It’s all part of their goal of dumbing down our kids so they will be easier to control. By many of the comments in these threads, it’s working on all age brackets.

      1. In some circles it is the acceptable slang replacement for “more stupid”. Even the President has used it on occasion.

        1. See how easy it is to get with the times. You used slang, and not proper olden days proper English with the tut tut’s and pinkie extended. Next thing you know we will have you saying “tho” instead of though, or a nice TTYL to a friend instead of talk to you later. C’mon, you know you wanna! The thing is, if this “study” can be replicated with similar results, it becomes “science” and once it becomes “science” it is accepted as true to the point that we have knowledge of. If that is the case, then, in order to give kids the best chance at the best education we start school later. The olden days have their place, as a starting point, not as a be all end all. Think about it, what would you say to the person who said, “Back in the old days things were so much better, we didn’t have to pay a neighborhood kid to mow the lawn, we owned people who did it for us” Today we find this idea ludicrous, but there was a time when it was true. We grow and change because of what we learn along the way.

          1. Actually, the thing is, how does the school system please the early risers, the late risers, and the no risers all at the same time? School is supposed to be an institution of learning, not pandering. One of the biggest problems we have in our school systems is that there are too many choices. Basic education is suffering in this country. And our country is suffering because of it.

          2. You can’t please everyone, you go with the averages, if the average best educational result is found to be a 9 am start, you go with it. There are advantages and disadvantages everywhere. I was a part of what was called “the open learning environment” experiment. No walls, only cubicle like dividers… yea that didn’t work and soon after i left that elementary school for middle school they built walls. I was also part of the whole blended educational environment where they basically brought together the smart, average, and below average kids into one class. The theory was it would help foster the below average kids to do better (i think) It didn’t work either, i was bored, the average kids kept on being average because that was the level we were being taught at, and the below average kids fell behind because they couldn’t get the individual attention they needed. I was part of two bad educational theories, but I still see the wisdom in trying to make things better. Sometimes you win, sometimes you fail.

          3. Well, the educational system prior to the changes that started in the late 60s and early 70s worked quite well. After all, American children tested number one in all categories when compared to the rest of the world. We must have been doing something right. But, not any more.

            Have you noticed that the more we try to suit the students, the more we fail, and the further the students fall into the abyss of ignorance and stupidity? The more we try to be tolerant, accepting, and liberal, the further we get from having our children accept responsibility and independence. We are becoming a nanny state, a welfare state, and a nation of people increasingly dependent on the government. That ain’t America. 

          4. I see it differently. The more we encourage students to think freely the better off we are. Have you noticed that since the 60’s and 70’s we have come a long way in equality for all? Have you noticed when students are encouraged to dive into what they are good at they wind up knowing more than their instructors (Bill Gates and Steve Jobs ring a bell?) You can not cookie cut education. I think we should have more trade high schools where math is taught in relation to carpentry, welding, fabricating, etc, so these students who fall through the cracks of cookie cutter education will excel. I have a “College Preparatory” Diploma, the highest diploma my H.S. offered, it did not prepare me for college, as a cookie cutter education my schedule was so full of english, math, science, etc. I had no room in my schedule to take any courses that may point me toward a profession.

          5. I think you’re referring to social engineering (which, by the way, is not the American way). My point is that students these days lack the basics. Without the basics, they have nothing to build on to help them reach their goals or fall back on if their chosen path doesn’t work out for them. 

            In addition, free thinking, in modern-day terms, is for the greedy and selfish. It’s the free thinkers that Occupy. It’s the free thinkers that push their agendas and look down on the hard working backbone of this nation. It’s the free thinkers that ignore the Constitution, our history, and our greatness as a nation. Sorry, but I’d rather be an American thinker than a free thinker.

          6. Did you also notice that the early-rising students of the fifties and sixties did a lot to make that equality happen?  Or don’t they teach that today

  6. As I recall, the start time for our local schools started years and years ago when the district decided to save money by having the same bus drivers make two runs, one after the other, instead of having two sets of bus drivers transporting kids at the same time. Rather than rouse little kids out of bed in the small hours, they made the teens get up early.

    This was HORRIBLE in our house–the article is correct–teens’ bodies and their circadian rhythms are changing, and they need to get up later, rather than earlier, if they are to be able to focus and learn in school.

  7. I think we should let the kids start at noon
    and get out at 1. Then we can say they are
    not eating at an appropriate time and they
    are undernourished because of this.

  8. The liberal education establishment won’t be happy until their entire graduating classes look like a scene from Bevis and Butthead Do High School.

    1. Right cause there is no science behind it at all. Just like there is no truth to the “rumors” that girls are hitting puberty and starting their periods at earlier ages than even 10 years ago. Who cares about what is actually biologically happening, who cares about the studies, if it was good for me way back when its good for them now. I hope this article didn’t get your blood pressure up, hate to see you have to goto the doctor for a “bleeding.” Oh wait, science disproved that practice, but since it was good enough for your ancestors, I guess it is good enough for you.

  9. How about parents actually making sure their kids aren’t playing Xbox until 4am? They tell the schools “he just won’t get out of bed, what do you want me to do.”

  10. Funny thing.  I’ve fostered over 100 teenagers during the last 40 years and I never found two the same.  It is true that if you allow your teen to stay up until 11PM, he will usually be tired when you wake him up at 6AM. The key is to have a routine which doesn’t change.  I found that bedtime at 9:30 on school nights, makes for pleasant mornings.  I also found that despite personal differences, my teenagers were always bright-eyed and bushy-tailed when I woke them up for camping trips, driving lessons, or some other activity they considered fun. Educators might do better attempting to make the school day as enjoyable as a camping trip.

    In fairness I’ve always been a morning person.  If the schools were 9 to 5 affairs when I was young, Teachers would complain that I was drooping at the end of the day.

    I would suggest that a good breakfast, and and a morning conversation about the up coming school day would be more beneficial than changing the school schedule.  The teen’s future employers probably won’t be so accommodating.

    1. I agree Harry. My kids are homeschooled so they are used to getting up when they are ready to–but my two teens go to a tech program every other day. Even though on days off they can easily sleep to noon, on school days they get up at 6 AM on their own. This is a full hour and 25 minutes before their bus comes. It amazes me that they can do this–in my high school days I was always sleeping to the last possible moment and barely catching the bus with my hair still needing to be combed and my toast and juice in my hand…

      1. My teen is in bed by 9:00 draws or reads til 10:00. Is up by 6:00 and we are out the door by 7:00. Activities most evenings. Weekends are on his schedule which most of the time sleep til 9-9:30  but only because of a later bedtime.

        My plan is to keep him tired.  Works too.

  11. This is the most ridiculous opinion piece this staff has ever printed.  Encourage laziness, its what makes America great, right?  Wrong.  America used to be early to bed early to rise but now its late to bed, late to rise.  No one wants to work, they only want to consume.  We have created a class of entitled people, lazy and useless and the BDN editorial staff wishes to encourage it using a study from the Cape Cod Times.  Brilliant, now go back to bed.

    1. What does school start times have to do with laziness? Don’t you want to get the biggest bang for your education tax dollar? My kids — particularly at 16 and 17 — were wide awake at 11 p.m. I vaguely remember watching Carson on school nights, long after my parents had gone to bed. The sleepy students in first period is one of the reasons schools rotate classes, so that they don’t do poorly all year long in that early class.

      1. What I want is serious and focused students that put learning ahead of Johnny Carson or texting or Facebook, something that will not happen because we have no expectations anymore.  I call it lazy, which is exactly what it is.

        1. OK, but school start time is the subject of the editorial, and whether high school starts at 5 a.m. or noon has no bearing on laziness.

          1. I know you have a study Tom and studies are all the rage these days. Never the less-work a kid hard all day (school and activities) feed them well, put them to bed at a decent time and they awaken ready to face the new day. Even if it is 6:00 AM.

            btw My 16 year old is not awake after 10:15 school nights. 

          2. It’s true that if you tire out a teen — more outside time, more sports, etc. — he or she is more likely to crash earlier.

          3. I chatted with my teen about how this change might effect him if it really happened.  He was
            most concerned about how his after activities would be effected. He would have to reschedule and was concerned that his routine would be effected. BTW he gets an A in his first class of the day. (English)

          4. Excellent! Maybe he’ll join the Professional Organization of English Majors (see Garrison Keillor), of which I am a charter member. POEM members have lives rich in ideas and expression, but not so in compensation and savings.

          5. I must disagree Tom.

            Time is man made, and habits are formed by routine.  There is no innate gene telling teens to stay up until 11PM.  If parents do not insist on specific bedtime, then what happens happens.

            Tell me do you have any information on the “laziness” factor by geographical region?  There was once a study which claimed people living in the northern hemisphere were more industrious than those living in the southern hemisphere.  If the sun rises early are teens more ready to go to school?  in Alaska where the sun is unavailable through out most of the school year are teens behaving differently? Are the teens living in Miami more prone to rise early in July than teens in Bangor in January?

            Again, we made time.  if there were no humans there would be no time, so what are the other relevant factors which cause this syndrome?

          6. google circadian clock. You are right, time is a man made concept, but our bodies have their own “clock”. Try and find the article featured in National Geographic a few years back. A woman lived in a sunless, clockless environment. She wound up staying up for days at a time and sleeping for days at a time. Why do you think there are no clocks in the casinos? Circadian rhythm dictates when we are tired, not a clock on the wall. The clock on the wall just gives us an idea of “time.” Its 11pm I should be tried. What this study is showing is that the natural circadian clock in some teens isn’t buying the argument that just because it is 11pm I should be tired.

          7. Again, ’cause you must have missed my other post above….

            “…..Although circadian rhythms are endogenous (“built-in”,
            self-sustained), they are adjusted (entrained) to the environment by
            external cues called zeitgebers, the primary one of which is daylight.”  (From Human Development and behavior) Extreme heat, cold, noise, silence, the sound of rain, and other conditions can also be zeitgebers. External man-made time is not.

            If you suggest Teens only be educated in sunlight, please explain how we do this with a nation of children in parts of Alaska, Northern Montana, and up here in New England, as opposed to Corpus Cristi Miami, and Hawaii. 

            My 13 to 16 Y.O. body liked the early morning (probably because my parents were up at 5AM and I didn’t want anything to happen without me.) I was done out and in bed usually by 8:30 or 9PM even though my parents never mandated a bedtime.. To this day I can not sleep when there is sunlight outside… even if I can not see it. I do get droopy when it rains

            The children who have lived with me over the years seem much more awake and active (at any time) when promised something exciting to do. 

          8. I am the opposite, I am up and running at 630 and drag until 8 or 9. I do my best work in the afternoon when everyone else who are “early risers” are having their 3 o’clock naps, and I am usually up studying until close to midnight, and most nights I have to force myself to bed. Each person is different, if these findings in the study turn out to be correct, then we go with it, if not we don’t.

      2. No doubt the drill instructors at Parris Island will see the folly of their methods and retool their program to be more in line with your sage observations, Tom. No sense to put these fragile 18 year olds through any unneeded stress.

    2. Im sure in countries like China, Japn the kiddies lay around and start school at 9 or 10.  Eurpoeans probably let their kids sleep in as well.  I guess a lot of parents can’t get their kids to bed earlier enuf to get a good night’s rest.

  12. Studies going back 30 years have resulted in similar recommendations. Start school later. Let teenagers sleep in the morning. But school administrators don’t listen. They start school early so that the almighty football, basketball, baseball and other sports can be practiced after school. Sports are more important than academics? Apparently.

  13. You bought your kid a cellphone with unlimited texting, they’re texting friends all night, you gave them a 42 in flatscreen for their bedroom with directv, a dvd player, and playstation 3, but it’s the school’s fault they can’t stay awake in math class at 8am? 

    1. They didn’t blame the school, they blamed biology. The reason kids are up texting, playing Xbox, etc. is that they are wide awake, which kinda makes sense. You are awake and bored, so you do something.

  14. Actually, a later start could be positive for HS team sports.  Instead of practicing in the afternoon they could practice in the morning–much as many HS Ice Hockey teams are forced to do, due to ice availability issues.  
     
    Furthermore, many studies suggest that conducting exercise in the morning pays many more dividends than  conducting fitness activities later in the day.  Running sports after school may be one of the contributing factors why students don’t get enough sleep: biologically, it is very difficult to go to sleep after just exercising then eating a large dinner meal. 
     
    I support starting High Schools and Middle Schools/Junior High Schools at 9-9:30 AM instead of the bucolic hours they currently start at.  If schools insist at starting at “zero dark thirty” then at least start the day with everyone (staff and teachers included) participating in a supervised exercise regime to wake everyone up properly.

  15. Nowhere in all this BS is there any mention about teens that want to (GASP) work for a few hours after school.

  16. Good routine means good rest.
    We are early to rise in my home.
    The working world requires it. Isnt that what school and adolescents is about, getting ready for the real world.
    Work, socializing,responsibility,healthy good routines?

  17. I did not go to school here in Maine, but in NC – and we didnt start school until 8:05 – of course this was in the 90’s

  18. If you’re asking for any type of change to this system good luck. 
    It is NOt meant to educate but meant to dumb down our children.
    Starting at such an early hour is done to train them for their mind numbing ‘careers’.
    Make no mistake, this system is NOt meant to educate.

    Check out these books—the Leipzig Conection and Charlotte Iserbyt’s (she now lives in Maine) 
    he Deliberate Dumbing Down of America.

  19. To further refute the naysayers…

    Inadequate sleep not only affects adolescents’ ability to learn, it predisposes them to behavioral problems, depression and anxiety, obesity, substance abuse, and driving while tired.

    The notion that simply starting school later would only push back students’ bed times doesn’t hold up. There is the case the editorial cites above. There is also the case involving a study in Minneapolis. School began at 7:15 a.m. and let out at 1:45 p.m. The start time was pushed back to 8:45 a.m.

    “Rather than students staying up later, the study found that students obtained an additional hour of sleep each school night,” write the authors of “Adolescents’ Sleep Behaviors and Perceptions of Sleep” in the Journal of School Health. “The results of this study showed statistically significant improvement in attendance rates for students in grades 9-11, less sleeping in class, and less student-reported depression.”

    This isn’t about “coddling” or raising weaklings. It’s about maximizing learning potential. Just because we struggled during our school days doesn’t mean it should always be this way.

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