Tuesday, Jan. 31, 2012: The body is a temple, prayers in the State House

I am a vocal advocate for same-sex marriage. 

I read those studies quite a while ago and I’m not going to spend hours looking.   I know, that will get me several replies that I can’t back it up.  As to details I do remember.

SS actually compares very well with OS.  Maybe even better.  The differences in outcome are low.  But there are a LOT of problems with the data and many of the studies.  So lets look at the reasons.

Lets start with the studies in general.  It becomes painfully obvious that studies finding either strong advantages or strong disadvantages appear to use skewed data and are usually done either by people with preconceived agendas or the studies are designed to support one position or another.  And because a negative finding goes against the PC bias on this subject any study finding a negative effect is attacked unmercifully.  This tends to have the effect that any researcher finding such a result either downplays it.  Another problem with these studies is the criteria used to determine positive or negative outcome and success.  Many of the criteria used are often more directly related to income level of the family or other factors unrelated to the SS vs OS.  If the children attend college is one of those, yet this is often used as a measure of “success”.  I don’t remember ever seeing a study using mental health, happiness, (really hard to define objectively), and success of the children in their own adult relationships as a measure of success.  Yet I would consider these more important in the long run than if the children attended college or make a lot of money.

Now for the data.  The problem becomes one of distinguishing between differences in outcome related to SS vs OS and those related to a multitude of other factors.  Many children of SS couples started out as children of OS couples.  And the age at which this change occurred is important.  So lets look at only children who were raised exclusively by SS couples.  This is a problem to start with because of there being a relatively small number of such couples to get data from.  But this data is skewed as well.  Many of these children are adopted and the adoption process itself is complicated and by design selects for stable and what I would define as “above average parents”.  Adoption is also expensive and this also selects for higher income and that alone selects for higher education, etc.  The last source of children raised by SS couples is artificial insemination and it’s variants.  These also cost money, etc. and tend again to favor couples with higher income and who actively want children. 

I hope this gives you some overview of the complexities of this subject in general and why there are no simple answers here.

The less than ideal OS families are really a straw man argument.  Many of these end up in divorce, etc. and I don’t think either of us disagrees that divorce or single parenthood puts children in much less than ideal situations. 

I guess you can’t read.  Or is your problem comprehension?  Or more likely, you have your agenda and feel you have to attack anyone who disagrees with that agenda even when that person is trying to add something constructive to the conversation. It is obvious that it is impossible to have an intelligent debate with you and many other ideologues  on here where each side could actually LEARN something constructive about the positions of the other side. 

The reason for my long post to RegularJoe was because he addressed my original post with an honest question, stated his position intelligently and without attacking personally.  Something you and several others on here appear to be incapable of.  As usual you just go on the attack and ignore the majority of the original post.

In my post I said this bias applies to the researchers and their studies and I stated it applied to both sides of this controversial issue.

And your last rant about Evangelical Christians is both ignorant and another attempt to inject completely irreverent issues into the subject being discussed.  Examples abound in other posts you have made to other people on this article. 

In answer to your last “question”.  (really an attempt to snipe.)  Evangelical Christians are more likely to get married in the first place than liberal Christians or atheists.  They are more likely to feel it is their moral duty to get married even when the relationship is not really a good one.   That skews the data when you are only looking at one aspect of the issue.

Thank you for your apology and I apologize for my over the top response.  Also, thank you for your reasoned and intelegent response.

I think both of us would agree that the real problem is the disintegration of the family.  I am also sure that we would disagree on the causes and the solutions.  But I also believe that we have more agreement than might be apparent on the surface.

My personal feelings on gay marriage are pretty much this.  I don’t care about the religious argument or sexual practices.   Just
don’t call it marriage.   I will not accept the continued redefinition
of  terms by single issue activists trying to make their issue more
acceptable in the greater society.    Call it a civil union and give it
all the same legal rights.  Heck, make heterosexuals have civil unions
as well.  I don’t have a problem with that.  After all we are only
talking about the legal issues related to benefits and government in
general.

You may feel this is a minor and unimportant part of the issue.  For me it is not.  I believe that it is important for a society to survive as a civil and stable society that traditions and definitions should change slowly and with great consideration for consequences of change.  There needs to be compromise, especially in the short term, that allows both sides to feel validated and respected while society deals with the change.  Eventually society will adjust and it is possible that in the end everyone will call it marriage.  But the very act of calling it gay marriage in itself defines it as different.  And there will never be compromise or acceptance as long as one side attempts to force it’s position on the other.

But don’t call it marriage and tell people there are NO
differences between SS and OS unions.  Don’t introduce me to your female
partner and call her your “husband”.  Or to your male partner and call
him your “wife”.  You want to pretend in private , fine.  But introduce
me to your male “wife” or female “husband” and be prepared to be laughed
at.

(Side note to think about:  In many European countries the abortion
issue was settled not in the courts, but in their legislatures.  Often
after long and heated controversy.  But it was settled in a way where
both sides at least felt their position was heard and respected.  One
side simply lost the debate.  In this country where the issue was
decided in the courts the debate has never ended.  One side won but the
other side feels the result was forced on them.  and here we are, what,
40 years later, still arguing.)

You would prefer to tear a society apart just so you get what you want when you want it and to he11 with everyone else. 

I’m waiting for your side to propose reeducation camps for anyone who disagrees with you. 

A lot of words…to say nothing.

Then is is time to make it illegal for all other types of families to exist …… for the benefit of children, take them out of these less than situations and place them with “traditional” families.  If you divorce… lose your kids, if your spouse dies… lose your kids, if you get pregnant or impregnate someone outside of marriage… lose your kids – as none of these are the best atmosphere for children.

I work with children. They come from all types of homes. They succeed or dont succeed for many reasons. The facts are the facts, it is heterosexual couples who make children who either succeed or not. For the most part gay couples do not have children and statistically (please research this) children from gay parents are successes. 

Where did you find those statistics? Statistics also show that more than one half of all marriages end in divorce. It seems to be that these traditional families don’t really have much of an advantage if half of them are torn apart by divorce.

You are absolutely right.  TWO parents is the most important factor.  Although I would add the word committed.  Two committed parents.     Marriage optional.

The take home message is that social progress should have stopped in 1955.

Lame.

STILL no good arguments. 

What “advantage?”