Washington County snubbed
It is an absolute outrage that the Maine GOP thinks that with only 83 percent of Maine’s votes for the 2012 Presidential Preference Poll it can discredit the potential votes of 8,000 members of the party from Washington County. It is even more of an outrage that the Maine GOP can call a winner based on only that 83 percent reported.
At a time when the GOP needs to come together more than ever to clear out the current Obama administration, and at a time when the GOP needs to gain strength and the trust of its members, it has made an irreversible mistake.
Though the Maine GOP still could make attempts to save face and do the right thing, there is no guarantee that Washington County GOP members will soon forget how their party has so willingly disregarded their votes.
Ultimately, whether one member of the Washington County GOP or all 8,000 members would have made it out to vote, it is not Charlie Webster’s race to call. This is the people’s preference poll, not the chairman’s.
Lindsay Carter
Old Orchard Beach
School choice failed
“Children First” is a catchy slogan used by education reformers Michelle Rhee, Arlene Ackerman and now Gov. Paul LePage. What it really means is propaganda first, unions are bad, teachers are like car salesmen and we should pay them the same way.
In Washington, D.C., scandal forced Rhee from her job when it was revealed that in order to promote her agenda of merit pay, teachers were cheating to raise student test scores (103 schools). The same happened in Philadelphia (89 schools) and Atlanta (44 schools). These cheating scandals were done without recrimination, and to this day Rhee touts how well merit pay works.
As for education vouchers, the Arizona Republic printed the following: Wherever vouchers have been tried scandals have erupted. When comparing students from similar demographics, public schools have repeatedly demonstrated superior academic results over other alternatives. Vouchers circumvent the separation of church and state.
Maine deserves better than the failed policies of false propaganda. If LePage’s plan is to fund private schools and promote school choice by use of vouchers and charters, and to evaluate teachers based on their students’ test scores, ignoring the home environment and its impact on academic achievement, then Mainers deserve better than Paul LePage.
Ken Allan
Machias
Stop sales tax dodge
A sale is a sale. Simple enough, right? Wrong. Online-only retailers are using outdated legislation to bend the rules and get ahead.
Retailers such as Amazon and Overstock.com have found a loophole in Maine statute and have avoided paying state sales taxes. If you have ever wondered why you can get such a great “deal” online, it is because online-only retailers are not being held accountable. These retailers are able to sell their products at lower prices under the assumption that you, the consumer, will go back and file sales taxes on your own time.
Because few consumers know that it is their responsibility to file these sales taxes, the state is losing out. Requiring online-only companies to collect sales taxes is not a new tax; it is the money our state deserves. Whenever any other goods are purchased in Maine, a percentage of that purchase goes back to the state. Why should online-only retailers not be held to the same standards?
These online retailers are negatively impacting our local economy by not paying the sales tax. Look at the facts and you will see that there are losers across the board. Small businesses are shutting down and good people are losing their jobs. With at least a 5 percent price advantage over brick-and-mortar stores, our local businesses can’t compete with Internet giants such as Amazon and Overstock.com.
No more excuses. It is time that online-only retailers start doing their share.
Rep. Stacey Fitts
Pittsfield
83%? 8,000 voters? He is declared winner by 200 votes? During the two days prior to the caucus I received no less than 8 telephone calls from his office imploring me to attend the caucus and vote. This is apparently what super-PAC money does. Romney is clearly after money and power. I wouldn’t vote for him if he was the last liar in the land.
Chairman Webster is the last liar in the land.
Mr. Allan, are you really saying that our public school teachers would cheat to obtain a raise? Impossible.
As for the rest of your letter, you offer no evidence that school choice is not working. Just some outlandish assertions from an Arizona paper. Scandals have erupted where there are vouchers? As if there are no scandals at all in the current system, right? To paraphrase…Scandals happen.
The Supreme Court has decided that government funds to a religiously oriented organization do not violate the First Amendment as long as the government does not show a preference to one faith over another.
LePage’s proposal does for evaluating teachers does not rest on student test scores alone. He wants to include other standards to ensure fairness such as administrative reviews of performance.
How about if the religion that runs the school shows preference? Is that fair and worthy of tax support?
A religious school by definition will show a preference to teaching the religion on which it is founded. But nobody is forced to attend such school.
Here is a thought. Let’s say that we have a Parochial (catholic) HS in Brewer. Their students who graduate are all passing the college entrance exams and are being offered scholarships from all the major universities and colleges. Up till now they have been operating on their own, supported by parishoners and fund raising activities plus what tuition they could get. With school choice being enacted, where all of a sudden students from Brewer would have the option of going to this school, taking their state and community money with them. Wouldn’t it stand to reason that all those students who had been attending the Parochial school could now demand that same tuition money to help them pay their way?
That’s an interesting scenario
The Arizona Republic has an excellent national reputation and the studies it quotes have been repeatedly reaffirmed.
Lindsay Carter, the Maine GOP has been upfront for weeks that caucuses need to be held before February 11th. Washington County fumbled the ball. There isn’t much Webster can do until the committee meets in March to decide the issue.
The Maine GOP was attempting to make the Maine caucus more meaningful on the national scale by coordinating the dates of the caucuses and announcing a final result at a big event. This attempt has obviously failed, but I am not so convinced that Charlie should take the blame for the counties not getting their people to caucus. As for votes that seemed to have gone missing at headquarters, I would really like to know how that happened. This isn’t rocket science. The counties send you the totals, you add them up, you declare a winner.
I have not read such boot-licking loyalty to the Central Committee since I put down the Gulag Archipelago and its descriptions of Russian apologists.
That’s a reply after my own heart. But, Russian lit. aside, pretending the Maine GOP led by Charlie Webster is anything close to the sinister Central Committee is giving Mr. Webster way more credit than he deserves.
But you are an apologist for him, nonetheless.
Because of the obvious fraud involved the GOP should be prohibited from attending the National GOP convention. Fraud should not be validated. To deny this grevious offense would be a violation of the oath of office which is a perjury; 18 USC Perjury, punishable by one year in jail.
Ken Allen,
You are clearly a union hack who could care less about educating the students of Maine. The Union goal is not status quo but to make certain that no monies are diverted from ending up in union coffers
Hyperbolic and probably non-factual. I and many others have never been teachers, much less teacher’s union members, and we agree with Allan’s point of view (and similar).
Education is an abject failure. Teachers are more concerned with benefits than they are educating. Birds of a feather Gopher. In your eyes the only solution you offer is one that doesn’t work.
Your teachers clearly failed in working with you.
Ad hominem attack. Not nice.
If Flat_lander attacks an entire class of people he should expect our scorn.
I see you admit to doing exactly what you chastise others for.
Great example of personal ethics. Thank you for a demonstration of your character.
An attack on one’s lack of logic is not an ad hominem attack. Flat_lander stated a categorical absolute (“Education is an abject failure”) which shows that he has never been taught the rules of logic: thus, I posted that his teachers failed him. How is a critique of his education an attack on his character?
Humpty Dumpty, you still don’t understand the meaning of words. They don’t mean whatever you say they mean.
By the way, your post qualifies as an ad hominem attack, but I digress.
They were union teachers who sent their own kids to private schools
teachers care about educating their students…maybe that’s you interpretation of teachers, but you are dead wrong. With all the cuts and frozen COLAs, lousy health insurance coverage, changes to what you have been promised…this is a no win situation for teachers. Many teachers still have to work after retirement. Teachers spend more time teaching kids to do well on mandated tests than they do actually educating them. They are handcuffed by administrators who have to report to the State, who have no clue what is going on in our schools. Administrators are justifying their over-inflated salaries…look at your school districts, and see how many administrators there are….do some schools, such as RSU 19, REALLY need an asst’ Superintendent or an asst Sped Director? School choice is not the answer, otherwise many would be sending their children to the better schools.
Mainers deserve better than LePage no matter what….hoping he doesnt do too much more damage before his term is up and he can be booted out of office and on his way to FL.
The teachers get what the unions negotiate on their behalf. Lets try introducing a longer school year or extend the school week to a 1/2 day on Saturday and watch the unions go beserk. Lets see who would be really interested in education then. The union’s goal is to get as much money as possible to the teacher for the least amount work.
parents and students would probably also go beserk…you do know that most teachers dont really have a say in what the unions negotiate, don’t you? The union’s goal is to get teachers fairly compensated and with the benefits like other big employers offer. Longer school years would cost even more money. If you dont offer a decent salary and benefits, you won’t get qualified teachers who are interested in staying more than a few years. I really don’t understand all this hatred towards teachers….why don’t you aim it where the problems start….at the administrators of your school districts.
Flat: Every single morning, every teacher shuts the door to their classroom and they put every effort they are capable of into teaching. During the whole day they are teaching, counseling, teaching, disciplining, teaching, comforting, teaching and not one is thinking about pay, benefits or retirement. The only non teaching thought that may enter their minds is when they might get a bathroom break.
The literacy rate in the US is 99.4%. Education is not an abject failure.
The literacy rate is 99.4%? Congratulations. Kids should be accomplished readers by 4th grade. What do the teachers teach the children after that? 1 in 5 of our college bound “graduates” needs remedial classes when they enter college. Just imagine the state of education for the “graduates” who aren’t college bound. abject failure is being kind. We deserve more for our $130,000 per student.
What is the $130,000 per student figure?
$10,000 per student per year for 13 years. That’s what the taxpayers of Maine pay to educate every rugrat in the state.
like to know where you pulled that figure from (one can only guess)….schools around mid-Maine get a fraction of that per year….check your figures and sources before spouting off, old one
I know you won’t apologize for questioning my numbers, but here you go. Straight from the education empire…
http://www.maine.gov/education/data/ppcosts/2010/geninfo2010.htm
2009-2010 it was $9,663 per student per year. Given the continual increases it surely must be $10,000 this year. 13 of years K-12. $130,000 to “educate” a kid. It all comes from taxpayers.
If you can read this thank a taxpayer.
If you can read this, thank a teacher.
Oh schmidlap…where are you? I know the $130,000 per child figure is scary for what we’re getting in return from the education empire, but I thought you’d surely reply given your insinuation that i was pulling number out of thin air (or worse).
please cite your sources!
Not true. SOME teachers put in this effort. Others assign reams of busy work that fill the time, but do nothing to help our kids.
Good teachers are a tremendous resource. Bad teachers are disasters that can set our kids back an entire year. But there’s no way to tell them apart, right?
I’m not going to ask where you pulled that 99.4% literacy rate statistic from. Either that or your definition of “literacy” is the biggest joke since Obama.
I had a neighbor in NYC who was earning $75K annually as a teacher and she was a complete hack and could care less. Many of the same teachers living in NYC would send their kids to private schools knowing the type of education their kids would receive in public government run schools.
You have this Norman Rockwell nostalgic view of teachers, take off those rose colored glasses once ion a while. This country is not doing well in a very competitive world.
Remember…. She is or was a teacher….
So your teachers were miserable failures. We get that. My children, however, had teachers that provided them with what they needed to do what they chose after high school. I appreciated all they did for my children. Teachers can only work with what a child brings to them.
I had many great memorable instructors, always thought I was a good student. Did your kids make it to university as I never graduated with a degree?
Sad that you may a blanket statement that is inaccurate and a generalization. There are some incredibly dedicated teachers out there. Sounds like you may have had bad experiences with teachers in your past.
I know many teachers and they are hard working people who love what they do. You, and people like you, who attack teachers and the education system are the problem.
I thought it was the freshman in college who can’t read or do arithmetic was the problem?
Teachers in other countries are respected and well paid, therefore they get the best that country has to offer to teach their children. Denmark, a country who’s children score in the top 5 in every category, pay their teachers the same as their doctors and teachers are respected members of society and because of that, they get the best the country has to offer to teach their children.
In the US people like you, conservative ‘think tanks’, conservative commentators and conservative politicians attack teachers, calling them “union thugs” or worse and attack the salaries they get paid as akin to theft.
We do not get the best and the brighteset like we used to and can you blame them with the way the conservatives attack them at every chance. That is what I meant by “you and people like you”.
Flat: you haven’t the faintest ideal what you are talking about. You either need to educate yourself about the field of education or choose a topic you know something about to comment upon.
Again you were and are an NEA hack. I am most grateful that the only kids you have influence over today are kids who read your posts.
So you would sell education to the highest bidder and give up public oversight of the education of our children? Now ALEC members really, really wants our public money and is pressing on prisons and schools being turned over to them. It is not working out too well in many states. Do a little research. It is a mixed bag, well all except for the profit being made which benefits who?
Ken Allan, Stacey Fitts: good letters.
Rep Fitts,
What value does the State add to any of these transactions that would entitle the State to tax the transaction. If I buy a book from Amazon why are you entitled to a piece of that?
I couldn’t have said it better if I tried. What is amazing is that is what Rep. Fitts believes.
The funding of the internet by state and federal governments made that purchase possible.
What part of the constitution allows the State to force any business to collect Maine tax on any transaction in which the business selling has no presence in the state?
A decision by the Supreme Court called International Shoe v. Washington addresses this issue and held that the Fourteenth Amendment did not prohibit the exercise of long arm jurisdiction by the state of Washington over an out-of-state corporation. The mailing of a product into another state is sufficient to establish jurisdiction of that state over the out-of-state corporation. Be thankful of this should you ever want to sue an out-of-state merchant in a Maine court for selling you a defective product.
You are confused as to what our Constitution does: it does not grant enumerated powers to state governments, but sets limits on what they might do. The Tenth Amendment reserves powers, as appropriate, to the states or the people, but does not say what those powers are.
Internation Shoe had a presence in the State of Washington (salesmen).
It is International Shoe. Cases since then have held that shipping a product or mailing flyers into the state was sufficient to trigger a state’s jurisdiction.
Only if you use your own vehicles or transporation. Using US postal service or common carriers does not give one Nexus.
Um, the sales tax is on what you and I buy. We are the residents and we pay the sales tax. The business just collects it. And, one could argue every computer gives it a presence in the state.
Every state would already be using that argument. New York is particularly aggressive. They would have already tried that if they thought it would work.
What part of “business to collect tax” didn’t you understand?
He is one of many of the politicians grasping at anything to get more money in the state coffers. We could probably save alot of money by cutting back on the amount of representatives in our House and Senate by a huge amount…doesn’t Maine have more state reps per capita than any other state? Why can’t these guys cut the amount of reps…oh, they may lose their cushy jobs with the fantastic benefits and pensions…..who is he really looking out for.
I don’t know. I kind of like our citizen legislature. Even when it is dominated by the other guys.
I think the issue is that retail store fronts must charge a sales tax. Online only retailers need to do the same. They are selling a product. If a state says you pay when you buy it should not matter who you buy from. Move to New Hampshire if you do not want to pay a sales tax. Maine has a sales tax. Until that changes you need to pay it. Imagine! If businesses stopped using loopholes, tax breaks, public assistance wages, subsidies, and other corporate welfare we just might see that deficit disappear.
So you’re a little Mom and Pop selling collectables on eBay. You would have the little operation be responsible for charging the correct tax in thousands of jurisdictions across the US and make the needed payment to the appropriate authority. The little Mom and Pop would have to be aware of any and all changes to the respective taxcodes.
I don’t have a problem paying taxes but do have a problem when that money is used to buy votes.
Lindsay Carter–Those of us who understand that the modern Republican party has become nothing more than a tool to service the needs of corporate special interests are not surprised at all by the current ruckus over the caucus. We expect more of this type of scandalous behavior in the future.
The party is actually now divided between its insanely wealthy wing and its insane wing. I’m rooting for the insane wing to win the nomination fight!
It is too funny for words that this is the same party that has been carping about so-called voter fraud.
It is fun, isn’t it.
It even hit Rachel Maddow last night! http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/02/16/maddow-speculates-whether-maine-gop-rigged-caucuses/
Rep Fitts,
As far as I am concerned, the more money the citizens of Maine, can keep from giving to Augusta, the quicker they can rein in the monster that is Maine state government. Cutting off its blood supply is the quickest way to put it out of business.
The biggest joke is that the lack of sales tax is why the internet is filled with “deals” when it is a lack of overhead and more progressive business models developed by younger more tech savvy business people. A few bucks in sales tax is not what is making Amazon.com a worldwide leader in retail. The sooner that local businesses can figure out that expanding their store to an online presence can bring more sales and more money the better. Until then they will fight to pass legislation to cripple their competition rather than rise to the occasion and show us what this “capitalism” and “free market” is all about.
It is nothing but less taxes and regulations when it is business making money but as soon as someone steps up with competition they need the government to fight their battles. The market is either free or regulated, you cannot eat your cake and have it too.
Sort of reminds one of the way RR’s fought the onset of truck’s.
Yeah, I buy online because the selection and prices are better. Sales tax savings are just a bonus, but not the motivation.
The lack of sales taxes is not always an advantage when postage is taken into account. Also, if a pair of shoes doesn’t fit, it must be returned with the added cost of more postage. The buyer oftentimes ends up paying more for the product.
Amazon is free shipping!
And Zappos rules for returns….
Ken,
Maine and Americas educational decline has nothing to do with politicians, teachers, buildings etc. It is all a direct result of the collapse of the traditional family. It’s easier to teach your dog then it is a whole lot of these kids today. Many don’t want to be taught, and there’s nothing anyone can do about it, unless your willing to get serious, and our society is not. Send all those who choose not to learn home to their parents and let them worry about their education.
excellent point, amconservative…and i usually dont agree with you. The downfall of the traditional family has harmed our children, they come to school angry that dad has left, that mom has had her 3rd of 4th boyfriend move in and he is suppose to be looked at as the new dad, that they dont get enough attention at home, enough food to eat, or parents that actually care how they are doing…
All generalizations are false.
I’ve told you a million times not to exaggerate.
not so, work in schools, see it firsthand…of course, I am not saying all kids come toschool angry….but enough to cause concern and worry….
Cute, I like it….
There was no generalization made, but your response leads me to believe you support the millions of bad parents and it’s just not their fault for their kids behavior.Now that’s a typical liberal generalization. A whole lot of kids today are worthless, just like the parenting they recieve!
You don’t seem like a very happy person Amcon.
The fact that most families have both parents working just to provide the basics and keep the bills paid has put time constraints on families. Most families today do not have the time to spend quality time with their kids. When they get home from work they are exhausted. They may not even have time to simply sit down and eat together. The families of the 50’s where mom was home with the children all day with opportunities to teach the counting, pre-reading, listening and speaking skills needed for a successful school beginning are gone and there has been nothing to replace them.
Either we have to go back to jobs with salaries that allowed for stay at home moms or dads or we have to create a new and competent pre-school system.
That argument really doesn’t fly. Back in the 50’s there were plenty of women working. They didn’t have the welfare system they have today and if their husband took off, the only recourse they had was to work. My parents both worked often two jobs. That didn’t stop them from being involved in our education. We may not have lived high on the hog but we were always fed and had decent cloths to wear.
IMO the major difference between then and now is that the schools no longer flunk students who aren’t performing well. They just push them through to the next grade where they will be further behind. The parents are a large part of the problem in this.
Patom1: I realize that in the 50’s there were many families where both parents worked and your posts indicate that your parents had the energy and forethought to give you a good educational start in life. However, statistics show that most families had only one bread winner and one parent in the home. The value of a parent in constant attention to the pre-educational needs of a child can not be overestimated. It gives a child an incredible advantage.
so right patom1, schools actually get penalized if students don’t finish within the 4 year time frame….
The only ones being punished are the students who get pushed through that are functionally illiterate. The system is doing no one a favor, especially the child that maybe should have spent an extra year in 1st or 2nd grade.
And people don’t bother to use capital letters or punctuation anymore.
I didn’t know we were getting graded on this site….get a life!
People always get “graded”…all the time. Your grade is…”marginally educated guy spouting about big education ideas.”
Actually, and in addition to your comment, a good portion of the blame has to go on the government, the teacher’s unions, and the liberal mindset of the education leaders. And it can all be traced back to the early 60s when the Supreme Court banned Bible reading and prayer in the public school. Then the Pledge of Allegiance became optional. Good, old-fashioned teachers were replace with hippies in ties.
In other words, the moral fabric of this nation was being ripped apart, and it infiltrated our public schools and ever other part of our lives in America. And it continues today with the modern day Progressive movement. We may be past the point of no return.
Hmm, in the 50’s, 60’s, 70’s and 80’s the Soviet Union had one of the best school systems in the world, Russisn mathematicians are still the best in the world. The Russian school system is still better than the US model and they don’t have Bible reading and prayer in public schools. IN fact for they had no legal religion at all.
Look at any developed country’s education system, most all of them are better than ours, and none of them have Bible reading nor prayer in schools. Why are those countries educational systems working so well and ours isn’t?
I think you will find that the people of those countries value both education and the teachers who teach their children, this country values neither. With Republican’s leading the way aganst both education and teachers (union thugs, you know) That is the problem.
A good school system in the Soviet Union, you say? The school system indoctrinated children in an atheistic, socialist philosophy that left them without any real hope for the near future and life beyond. AS a result drug and alcohol abuse became so rampant that the society imploded and the economy was left in ruins. People literally starved from lack of food, froze from lack of fuel, and died from lack of health care. That was the legacy of the “good” school system in the Soviet Union.
The only reason why the leftover parts of the former country survived is because of its large proven reserves of oil being extracted with American technology. A friend of mine, now a professor at Boston U., immigrated from that country shortly after the downfall of the communist regime. He has returned there on numerous visits. By all accounts, the only hope for that territory is its growing embrace of Christianity. He himself remains an atheist, or more accurately, an agnostic with a growing appreciation of Christianity.
Yes, the Soviet Union indoctinated it students in Marxist-Leninist doctrine but to blame the drug and alcohol abuse on that is ignoring the fact that Russia pre-revolution was a very poor country that had major alcohol problems already. Alcohol has always, and probably always will be, an intrical part of being “Russian”.
Indoctrination aside, the Soviet child was very well educated in math, science and reading. So much so their students always out-performed the US and the Soviet mathematician was the worlds best.
I disagree with the political indoctrination of the student but they were as well, if not better educated then US students were and WITHOUT any religious indoctrination. The Post I was replying to stated that we needed to bring back Bible reading and prayer to get our educational system back to were it should be.
That poster was wrong. None of the countries with better education systems have any religious indoctrination as part of their education system. That is better left to churches.
In Russia, just as in China and other communist countries, the children are either selected, directed, or rejected. Those that want to excel do so under, stress and duress. Those that do not, end up as laborers, criminals or bums.
At least, that’s what I’ve been told. And, whether or not it’s the truth, I still favor an American education, even with its deficiencies.
You might want to take a refresher course on why bible reading and prayer were banned. This country is not a theocracy. Teacher-lead prayers in public schools are not one-size-fits-all.
Churches are doing enough religious indoctrination of children. Let’s leave public schools as places where facts are taught.
wow-cant believe I am agreeing with you!!!
I guess it IS better to be in a rigid and confining society that allows for no dissent-all for the better of society! Tito had it right all along!
“Back when I was a kid…”
It’s all relative. Some things are better; some worse. I don’t think there’s a huge decline in education.
Unless you include your incorrect use of “…unless your willing to…”
Back when *I* was a kid we had to bicker in PERSON! And we LIKED IT!!!!
Back when I was a kid most of the conservative posters on this forum would not have uttered a peep in person.
@ Stacy Fitts It is called States rights..part of the US constitution. You want to give up that right in one instance then be prepared to give it up in all instances. If someone has no presence in your state you currently have no legal/constitutional right to apply any state law to them and it goes both ways.
Mr Fitts since we are into tax returns lately how about you release the section of you Maine State income return where “use” tax is to be declared?
good one!
Awww, I could only press the like button once.
Well, to be fair, maybe he has done that. But I think it’s interesting that he’s put the burden on the retailer’s shoulders and not ours.
Wow. Because incompetent teachers aren’t trustworthy and will cheat when forced to do their jobs then we shouldn’t hold them accountable for their jobs. No wonder our “graduates” aren’t prepared.
The following sums up the teachers union position on education perfectly.
“When school children start paying union dues, that’s when I’ll start representing the interests of school children.” Albert Shanker – President of the United Federation of Teachers [1964-1984] & the American Federation of Teachers [1974-1997]
Exactly! Amazing that someone would condemn the merit system, but not the teachers who cheated! That says it all to me…
Merit-based pay works in the rest of the world (well, non-union world, I guess), why can’t it work for education. Good teachers deserve to be rewarded!
are teachers cheating due to pressure put on them by administrators, who will lose money if the kids don’t perform well?
We all have pressure: that doesn’t mean we all cheat. My guess is teachers aren’t used to being held accountable for their performance.
do you hate teachers or are you jealous of them…..your guess is wrong…and mean
Not at all: I know many teachers I like and respect. It’s the attitude that there is no way to hold teachers accountable for their performance (like I am held accountable for my performance at work), and that if we do, it only makes sense if they cheat. Why can’t we pay good teacher more for good performance?
you also have the cliques in schools with teachers, administrators, teachers that have been kept on too long, etc…..it is a very frustrating job these days….and whose attitude are you referring to? Saying teachers cheat is catagorizing the majority who work their butts of for the kids,
Attitude of the letter writer: they were suggesting merit based pay was the reason those teachers in DC cheated. Flat wrong: they cheated because they lack ethics.
No one is saying it’s an easy job. My job is hard too. But where I work, they reward high performers. It’s the way the real world works.
If God was the one that decided who deserved merit pay teachers would go along with it. School boards, superintendents and principals are not God: have favorites, play politics, curry favor and often judge unfairly. Just one unfair judgment can create tension in a job where cooperation is demanded. One unfair judgment would cause good teachers to seek more collegial places to work. The fairest way is a step system, a competent and vigilant administration and a school board that is looking at more than just the bottom line.
School boards, superintendents and principals are not God: have favorites, play politics, curry favor and often judge unfairly. Just one unfair judgment can create tension in a job where cooperation is demanded.
I like to call that sort of thing “incestuous nepotistic bullying.”. Maybe it doesn’t fit but it’s as nasty as I can get and not be blocked from commenting.
So there is NO way to judge a teacher? Are you telling me you’ve never met a better than average teacher? Or a terrible teacher? Of course you have. Suggesting there is no way to evaluate teacher performance is a cop out. I’m not claiming test scores are the best way or the only way, but that schools should be developing ways to evaluate performance.
And will it be 100% accurate and fair? No, but that’s life. Keeping crummy teachers in the system because no one is evaluating them is unfair to kids (and taxpayers!).
See above and quit making up dumb arguments.
See the arguments from the others who suggest merit based pay won’t work because you can’t evaluate merit. Thank you for pointing out that school boards do indeed evaluate merit. This can be the basis for a merit-based pay system.
Hophead
A fairly good discussion of merit pay which quotes studies and statistics: http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/as-teacher-merit-pay-spreads-one-noted-voice-cries-it-doesnt-work/2012/02/14/gIQAtRpsFR_story_1.html
Hop. the problem is that merit pay doesn’t address educational problems and therefore can’t improve education. Use a factory analogy. The widget factory wants to improve their product and become the number one seller of widgets in the country. They decide to make no changes in the way the factory is run, the way people are trained, the quality of the materials nor the quality of the machines used to make widgets or the efficiency of the processes. They will simply increase the pay of the top ten% of workers and fire the bottom 10%. There are 30 employees. Three get higher pay. Three get fired and are replaced by new people. I think the assumption you are making is that the 27 employees will see that 3 employees have higher pay for better work and will work harder to achieve the same reward. But will they be incentivized to do better for something that they know will only go to the top 3? How much product improvement can you expect from this plan?
It seems to me merit should be determined by the administration. What the heck are principals for in a school if not to lead and evaluate the teaching of teachers? After all, my supervisor evaluates my performance and my raise is based on that evaluation.
many principals are there covering their butts and making everything look hunky-dory to the school boards and superintendents….not addressing the real problems.
That’s an excellant question Wandini. What are principals and school boards doing? And the answers is, not much. You don’t get great schools and great teachers by hiring half good teachers and then playing “go along to get along”
But the principal can’t reward based on performance. The union contract states what a teacher is paid based on seniority. No mater how good or bad a teacher is they all get paid equally. The principal has no say on pay rate.
You seem to think schools are filled up with incompetent teachers but brilliant principals who are being held back somehow by teachers. Has it ever crossed your mind that it’s the principal’s and the school board’s job to start hiring good teachers and get rid of the bad ones and that they have the mechanisms to do so?
Where you work, do they expect you to make diamonds out of clay?
For an example, let’s say you are an assembly line worker and are supposed to install radios in cars comming down the line. The radios are fine but the wires to hook them up have not been put in, nor the fuse or antenae. The wires were supposed to have been installed 4 steps prior to your spot on the line. The Antena was supposed to have been installed 2 steps prior. With out either of these important facets, your instalation of a radio is a waste of time, due to the vehicle not being able to utilize the radio function.
What do you do? You can’t reject the car because your supervisors have said that you can’t leave any car behind. It will look bad on the production reports.
How about slightly better molded clay? Some teachers are good, some are average, some are bad. If you have kids in the school system, we all know who they are. But for some reason, the union dogma is that there is NO way to evaluate them. There’s a clear disconnect here.
Hophead. How many times have I told you there is an evaluation system? Got to your local school board and ask to see it. And every school board is required by law to have a policy and a process for firing teachers. Ask to see that also. It is a year long process involving observation, documentation and teaching improvement plans.
This process is necessary so teachers cannot be peremptorily and unjustly fired simply because some parent or school board member or principal has declared the the teacher incompetent or their pay scale is too high. In no business in the US can you fire a professional with a contract without just cause. If you have incompetent teachers in your school your school board and the principals they hired are not doing their job. The union only steps in when the firing process has not followed the legally mandated firing process. Unions do not protect teachers that have been found to be incompetent or criminal. It just doesn’t happen. It’s a myth perpetrated by ultra conservative, anti-public education propaganda. A lot of it started with Phyllis Schlafly and her Eagle Forum. You have local control over your schools. If you want better education start locally and stop trying to blame your local problems on an outside agency.
OK, then if we have a fair and just method of evaluation, what’s wrong with merit-based pay. The arguments I was responding to suggested merit-based pay is impossible because there is no way to evaluate merit. Well, why can’t we use those evaluations to reward good teachers and remove bad ones? Not just grossly incompetent, but the lazy and dim.
Sure you could use the evaluation system to create a merit pay program. The fact is merit pay has been tried and it never improves the all over teaching quality of a district. Which would be the point of institution of a merit pay policy. Google it. In many schools it has been handled poorly and created ill will. In other schools it has simply been doled out to everybody or nobody. In almost no schools has it improved teaching. It certainly has never improved the bad teachers.
Did it come with a policy that enabled districts to fire the lowest 10% performing teachers? Without that, kids’ scores will still suffer. I’ll google, but I doubt the data is complete.
And I’m not concerned about ill will. Welcome to the real world.
The power to fire bad teachers is right there in the school boards book. It is not the teachers’ or the unions’ fault if they don’t use it.
But you can reject the car. Who requires a teacher to give a passing grade to a student who doesn’t learn the material? Have you no professional ethics.
You cheerfully pay more and more for everything else. What justification do you give for making education costs stay the same year after year. You sound like one of those oldtimers that is way more interested in your taxes and use education as a whipping boy. You really don’t give a hang if kids are educated or not so long as the unions are busted and your taxes stay low.
Nice straw man. No one said that costs shouldn’t keep pace with inflation. You may be a math teacher and I know this might be hard for you but try to keep up here. If the cost of education had only kept pace with inflation since 2000 the increase would be half as much as it is.
It is the teachers don’t give a hang if children are educated as long as the increase keep coming.
State and federal governments have over the years been reducing educational support and putting more of the cost on to towns. The state constantly shifts the amount each district gets according to changes in the districts. Your district may have lost funding through this shift. LePage recently made a very big adjustment in school support. Many wealthy districts found their reimbursement from the state drastically cut and other districts like Millinocket were given added support. With the down turn in the economy many towns are finding they have to turn to property tax to raise the funds they had previously raised in other ways. The taxes in our town have gone up however the amount of money that goes to the schools has remained the same. Newer less experienced and less costly teachers are not coming into teaching so you have an aging more experienced and more costly group now teaching. Facing the Oldtimer attitude can you blame young people for not looking at teaching as a respected career.
Your statement that teachers don’t give a hang about students as long as the increases keep coming is not true, meant to be ugly, is uncalled for and certainly does nothing to improve education.
And your continually ignoring the fact that the taxpayers are paying more every year in real dollar terms for an increasingly poorly prepared students is a disservice to the students you pretend to serve. Advocating for the status quo or even worse advocating for throwing more money at the problem knowing that it will all be eaten up by more pay and benefits for doing the same poor job does nothing to improve education either.
If you’d ever read any of my posts on education you’d realize I do not advocate for the status quo. There are tried and true methods to improve education that are being used by other countries right now. Most Americans simply want to bellyache about taxes and how much they have to pay for education rather than study the problem and institute something that works. Most of the bellyachers want to turn schools over to for-profit organization. Somehow being a for-profit and privatization is the solution to all problems because it’s convenient one doesn’t have to think about change and actually deal with it.
“Most Americans simply want to bellyache about taxes and how much they have to pay for education rather than study the problem and institute something that works.”
What’s stopping these highly trained and motivated individuals in the education empire from “instituting something that works”? You keep telling us that they know best but we never see any results, just ever increasing costs. Who wouldn’t bellyache about that?
If parents had the choice and the teachers had to compete for students they would find a way to teach effectively or not have a job…just like in the real world.
You didn’t understand. That cost is the total school budget, not just the property tax amount, so the cost to educate each student, using money from all sources, has increased at twice the rate of inflation. Bottom line is that we’re paying more and more for a declining product. I’m sorry that you don’t like me pointing that out, but you can’t change the fact that it’s true. Maybe if we had real competition in the classroom so that better performers could rise to the top we’d have more young people entering education.
Children aren’t widgets or the product of a manufacturing process.
No they aren’t widgets. But even widgets will be rejected if they don’t have all their parts and can’t function. As children who go through the system who can barely read and write. The only problem being that you can’t just return them to where they were supposed to get the reading or writing parts.
Patomi, again, passing kids along is a school board policy. Most teacher decisions to keep a child back are overridden by principals and superintendents. Ask any teacher.
I realize it’s a policy from on high. I’m not blaming the teachers.
OK
And taxpayers aren’t walking wallets to be fleeced into paying more and more for the poor quality education our children are getting from the education empire.
The DC system shouldn’t be used as an example for anything. It was and is a fairly dysfunctional system for many reasons. The fact that DC is run by Congress is not a small reason. Poverty and wide economic/racial differences also play a part. It is not a typical school bad good or indifferent.
Michelle Rhee was hired to improve the system. Unfortunately, she had an agenda, which had nothing to do with improving public education in DC. Her tenure was marked by turmoil, teacher and parent anger and anxiety, higher taxes, test cheating, inappropriate school closings, abrupt and unjustified firing, disregard of parental input, unnecessarily harsh disciplinary techniques and no progress.
Man they really work their butts off. 36.5 weeks a year, 6 1/2 hours a day.
Holy cow, that’s an ignant statement!
And the rest of their time they’re drinking cocktails and eating bonbons?
Oh yes we have a regular hour of drinking and carousing at the end of the day. We even have a special cocktail for the occasion. Mix 3 parts conservative “this country is going to the dogs” with 2 parts Limbaugh hate, add a splash of “it’s my money” and a dash of “schools went to hell when they quit reading the bible” and there you have it. “The Old Timer Sour. LOL
oldmainer, you are out of touch….my partner leaves for school around 7 (only a 5 minute ride) and normally doesnt get home til after 4, most days after that. Plus there are CEUs to be earned to keep up to date with licenses and job requirements, staff meetings, parent conferences, etc…calls at home from students and parents…all answered on their own time. Never mind finding time to try and grade papers and prepare lesson plans, reading new materials given, mentoring younger teachers, etc. etc. etc……what you are refering to is the student day, not the teachers! maybe you should go and volunteer in a classroom to see what it is really like during the day…do you think all the kids sit there quietly while the teacher lectures in front of the class? there are many behavioral problems these days that they also have to keep up on…..so please dont speak of what you do not know.
I should hope your partner works after the school day. After all the scheduled work day is only 6 1/2 hours. Do you suffer under the delusion that all other professionals only work an 8 hour day?
such a catty remark from one who professes to know so much! Teachers are required to stay after school for a certain amount of time after the students are dismissed…whether all do or not, I cannot say; I can only speak from my own experience. and the scheduled work day is longer than you stated…teachers are there before and after students arrive….very petty on your part….we have both worked outside the school system in private business and know what a work day is….teaching is very emotionally draining as well, dealing with disruptive, special needs, or misbaving youth. You seem to have all the ducks in a row as far as how educators should work, but I doubt you have ever experienced that. Teachers are an easy punching bag, especially for those who know not what they speak of.
1 in 5 of our “graduates” who attend college aren’t prepared, per pupil education costs are going up at twice the rate of inflation, and your solution is shut up and pay your taxes.
Brilliant!!!
I don’t have a solution, some suggestions which won’t be wasted on the ill-informed such as yourself. One of my solutions would be for you to shut up (as you state) until you do some research and stop “quoting” these anonymous sources to state facts from who knows where! Schools get penalized if they keep students in past the 4 years of high school, so many who graduate are not prepared. The real problem is administrators that don’t give a crap about the kids, just push them thru, get the paperwork and reports to the state so they can keep on getting that per student tuition payment from the state, and keep their jobs.
Why are the teachers promoting kids that are not prepared. Don’t they care about the kids? Have they no professional ethics? Who is forcing them to give out grades that aren’t earned? I have yet to hear a teacher stand up at a school board meeting or even in an editorial to the paper and complain about being “forced” to pass failing students. You’d think at least one who really cared about the kids would have the professional ethics to stand up for the children. Don’t they care?
that’s probably something you need to ask the principals and administrators (esp the special ed depts)….and of course, they will deny it…but ask about the penalties for keeping kids in high school for more than 4 years.
So the principals are evaluating the students and giving out grades now? I thought that’s what we paid the teachers for.
you live in a fantasy world!
And yet I’m the one posting facts about the cost and quality of public education in Maine while you keep blaming others for the grades the teachers give out.
When you’re reduced to ad hominem attacks you’ve lost the debate.
How can you stand your wonderfulness? Your smug, retractable remarks are tiring.
Even more ad hominum attacks? And I’m smug?
In all of this
debate you have yet to propose anything that will provide a better
education for our children. Our children are tired of being left
unprepared for the world.
The scheduled work day is not 6 1/2 hours. That’s the number of hours children are in school. Teacher a fully aware that other professions work longer than 8 hours a day. They know this because the do. You seem to have a very low opinion about teachers. What’s your opinion of the school board you elected that hired these terrible teachers, gave them undeserved tenure and continue to keep them employed. Your elected school board comes in for no criticism?????
How come you didn’t go into teaching Old timer if you think it’s such a cushy job with such fantastic pay?
Pointing out that, in general, a profession is overpaid for the results they produce doesn’t mean I should set my sights so low. I prefer to work harder and make more. You can’t do that in the teaching “profession” were every teacher is an interchangeable widget and all are paid alike.
This discussion is about changing that so that we get better teachers and we can then pay them more. When that happens I’ll look into teaching.
And how do you suggest education will improve with misanthropic views like yours.
Continuously throwing money at it with no accountability surely hasn’t improved it.
Ah yes, the old “money down a rat hole” debating point. So, tell us if money doesn’t improve anything why are those schools that just lost money in the state support for education shuffle screaming like banshees. If money doesn’t count they should just be able to get along on what they have.
That’s a crap argument. Of course money improves things. It does in every thing else. Why would education be an exception.
OK, Hophead. By the powers invested in me I appoint you to invent a fair and balanced system that rewards excellent teachers and casts scorn upon bad teachers. Here is a shiny gold badge as an emblem of your authority and power. When you have invented this perfect system, complete with the total amount it will increase taxes, please report it to the nearest school board and town council. Good luck and godspeed.
Here’s the system: raises for good teachers, none for bad. That’s how it works in the real world: pretty simple actually.
OH no you don’t LOL You got your shiny gold badge to invent a fair and balanced system. All you are doing is telling what the system will do. You still have to invent an evaluation system. Get busy or you will lose your badge.
Arrrghhh! Here’s your quote from below: “How many times have I told you there is an evaluation system? Got to your local school board and ask to see it”
So does an evaluation system exist or not?!?!
If there is, let’s use it to reward good teachers and fire the bad. If not, local school boards should build it (with full support of the union of course, because according to you they have no influence on educational policies).
This thread is very tangled and out of order. It does make it difficult to conduct a systematic discussion where everything follows logically.
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Many of the teachers in the Atlanta scandal were told by their principal in which closet they would find opened tests to look at. I don’t know about the DC testing scandal but the Atlanta one was top down.
I see, so they just went along with it. Great.
As I understand they were told to go along with it. Administration officials lost their jobs. You could google the information. I expect it is still available.
Good thing they weren’t told to walk off a bridge…
It is not just their performance. It is the performance of all the teachers that preceded them. Education is a cumulative process. Children do not stay in one school all their life. Should a teacher in 8th grade be held accountable for what they didn’t learn in k-7 grades in another school in another state? The oversimplifications of people posting here shows their ignorance of what they seem to think they have a solution for.
There are many ways to measure performance.
Why not hold them responsible. All teachers are the same. They are as interchangeable as widgets. At least that’s the way we pay them.
oldmainer…your remark leads me to believe that you are indeed old? dementia?
Your remark does nothing to refute the statement that all teachers must be alike since we pay them all the same. If that’s true then what the teacher receives to work with should be the same in all cases.
just like all nurses, mechanics, painters, policemen, electricians, etc all are the same and should get paid the same? what planet did you land from? You obviously have a problem with teachers, from reviewing your remarks here. The children are our future, and we need to educate them. And it does cost money and we want the best educators that money can buy! It is a thankless job, thanks to people such as yourself. No teacher ever made an impact on you? Do you have children or grandchildren in the school system? Don’t you want the best for them? Or are you of the ilk that you no longer have family in the school systems and only want your taxes to go down..don’t care about the children attending today?
I do want what’s best for the kids. If the best teachers are paid more and less talented teachers either let go or paid less then the kids win as teachers strive to do better and we attract better teachers. You believe that merely by paying the current teachers more that we will somehow magically make them better. Will just paying them more make them better teachers? Are they not giving us a full effort now and if we just pay them more they’ll do better? We’ve been trying that as the cost of education continues to rise at twice the rate of inflation and the results are at best stagnant and more likely declining.
Thankless job? I thank the teachers every time I pay my taxes. You, like the teachers, focus solely on what’s good for the teachers. I’m focusing on what’s good for the children. The children are our future. Why don’t you put the kids first for a change?
I don’t believe I ever wrote that teachers should get more money (even tho I think they should!). Now you are coming out with the “what’s best for the kids” card after berating the teaching profession….ahh, how you twist the words to suit your fancy. The cost of just about everything has risen, not just education. We put in extra non-pay hours for our students and also talk and see them during the summer on our own time. The majority of teachers are punching out at 3:15 every day, yet there are many that stay after that time to work with students, converse with fellow teachers regarding problems, lessons, etc. You may thank the teachers when you pay your taxes, but you berate and belittle the profession the rest of the time…quite a piece of work you are….I never said paying teachers more would make them better….and I do not focus on what is best for the teachers……I am only defending them against your idiotic rants. Tired of your little jabs, you really don’t have a clue as to what goes on in education these days…you just want to take it out on teachers…..
You didn’t see my post regarding the increasing cost of education compared to “the cost of everything” (i.e. inflation)? The cost to educate kids is rising twice as fast as inflation. The vast majority of this increase goes to pay and benefits yet all I hear is that teachers are underpaid. That might be true if the increased money was producing increased results. It almost seems as though the two are negatively correlated. The more we pay the worse results we get.
Teacher salaries have increased only slightly over inflation. There are several other reasons why the cost per child has gone up. Fuel costs have doubled. Maine is trying to play catchup with replacing old school buildings. New buildings are very expensive. They are bigger, they cost more to heat and light. Expensive lighting for the grounds are required. Sports costs have increased. Parents and kids expect and get more sports with better coaches and equipment. Transportation to events costs more and teams are going further from home. Class size has decreased but not enough to cut back on the number of teachers. After school programs been instituted in many schools. Principal salaries have doubled. Superintendents salaries have tripled. More administrators have been added. Bus companies have to have better training for drivers and they are charging more. Their fuel costs have doubled and they pass it on to the school district.
It must be great to get an increase above inflation while those paying the bills have seen no raises or even seen salary decreases. But as one teacher said to me, “Not my problem”.
Oh and school buildings are primarily paid for by the state taxpayers and most of that cost doesn’t show up in the school budget so is not part of the per pupil calculations. Keep stretching though.
Yes it does in the form of more expensive maintenance. Ask any district that has built a new school recently.
Paying one or two superior teachers a bit more may (note I say only “may”) attract a few more people to go into the teaching profession but it really does nothing to improve over all education.
You are a discouraging person. You have a nasty answer for everything. I think you really aren’t interested in discussion.
Well it is discouraging to be treated like nothing more than a walking wallet expected to continue to pay more and more for public education with less and less to show for it. All you’re interested in is protecting the teachers from any accountability. And your answer for getting better results from public education is?
Stop using schools to promote political, religious or cultural agenda. Ban all political, religious or cultural organizations from making educational policy.
Require principals and superintendents to have BA and MA degree the Arts and Science. Require 7 years of teaching before becoming a principal or superintendent. Be in the top third of their graduating class in order to receive certification for principal and superintendent.
Establish national educational goals appropriate for each grade based on the what science knows about brain development and learning stages. Establish national testing for those goals.
Restructure schools of education so that only the top half of students are allowed to enter. Require a major in math, science, literature or history to be completed before any courses are taken in the school of education. Eliminate “methods” courses. Eliminate the Master’s in Education degree.
Require all teachers to have a Master’s degree in a subject matter course (science, history, literature, etc) within 7 years of entering the teaching profession.
Increase the incentive for bright people to go into teaching by increasing the standards to become a teacher and increasing the pay accordingly.
Make music, dance, drama and art a major part of the curriculum not just a dispensible afterthought.
Make schools a community center with access to the library, media center, recreational facilities, meeting rooms etc. Schools belong to the community they should be able to use all the facilities.
Put community counseling centers, medical assistance and financial aid agencies in the schools to help with struggling students and their familes.
Extend the school day and the school year.
Have a means test for all school board members. If they are mean they aren’t allowed to be on the school board.
Have you looked into what that means in education? This has gone around and around and around schools of education all across the country for many years. There is no way to establish a reliable way of evaluating a teacher whose ‘products’ come down the assembly line with a wide range of skills and abilities and who have no control over factors outside the classroom that impact academic performance. One teacher inheriting the failures of the child that fell through the cracks for three years, say, should not be evaluated on that child’s performance the year s/he happens to have them.
Yet we all know a crummy teacher when our kids get one. You’re suggesting there is no way to evaluate what we can see plainly.
Merit based pay does not work with the rest of the world. It only works in some industries. Schools are not an industry. See below, way below, for a good article explaining merit pay for teachers.
Teaching is not like the rest of the world. I can not think of another occupation that bases its pay on success that has a population that is forced to be there, that has limited ability to understand consequences, and have little external motivation. You cannot compare apples and oranges in this discussion, while merit pay may work in other sectors of the economy, it is not what is best for our students. Eliminate excess administration and put the money into classroom in the form of Educational Technicians, which for the money, are the most efficient investment a school district can make.
Two issues here:
Measurement of merit. There ARE differences. Anyone with kids has seen it. There are teachers that stand out from the crowd and teachers that do more harm than good. But how do we measure that? I don’t have an answer, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try.
Do financial incentives work? I would say they do in the long term, but we need to try it on a large scale to be sure. Is teaching so different than every other knowledge-based industry that merit based pay can’t work? Maybe, but I seriously doubt it.
Status quo is not working. Our students are falling behind on the world stage. Fault of parents? Yes. Fault of the school system. Yes. BOTH need serious changes.
Hop, you seem to have divided all teachers into two groups: a tiny group of superior teachers and all the rest very bad teachers. Have you divided your work place that way? Are there just a few good workers and the rest all worthless slackers? To most of us the world doesn’t appear quite so well delineated.
Not at all. 15-20% are great: well above average. 10-15% are abysmal. The rest are satisfactory. Whether it’s the school board’s laziness or the unions threat of filing endless grievances, I can’t say, but schools really need to drop that bottom 15%, and reward (financial or otherwise) that top 20%.
That’s all I’ve been saying. The union (and maybe the school board) wants all teachers, good, fair and poor, to be treated the same, and I think that’s a terrible mistake for the future of our children.
There may well be 10 to 15 % of the teachers below acceptable. They could be fired if the school boards and principals wanted to. They don’t. This has very little to do with unions and a great deal with how schools are run by the school boards you elected.
Here’s another problem with firing 10% of your teachers. Very few young people are going into teaching for many reasons, low pay being one of them. Starting pay in Maine averages $25,000. Why would a bright capable person go into teaching when with the same investment in time and money they could go into engineering for example and earn a starting salary of $45,000.
The pool of new teachers is in many respects not much better than the lower 10% that you want to fire. Yes, there are some truly bright and dedicated people going into teaching but there are not enough to replace those leaving teaching.
just because one jerk says something outrageous, please don’t think he represents the teachers of America’s thoughts
According to msallyjones, not a jerk at all and there is nothing wrong with a union leader making such a statement. The teachers’ union does not care about education of children and is unapologetic about it.
Shanker was known for telling the truth in the most insensitive way possible. He’s very quotable. He was sometimes a jerk. However, he was dedicated to quality education just as the NEA. Here is the vision and mission statement of the NEA:
The National Education Association Vision, Mission and Values
We, the members of the National Education Association of the United States, are the voice of education professionals. Our work is fundamental to the nation, and we accept the profound trust placed in us.
Our Vision
Our vision is a great public school for every student.
Our Mission
Our mission is to advocate for education professionals and to unite our members and the nation to fulfill the promise of public education to prepare every student to succeed in a diverse and interdependent world.
Our Core Values
These principles guide our work and define our mission:
Equal Opportunity. We believe public education is the gateway to opportunity. All students have the human and civil right to a quality public education that develops their potential, independence, and character.
A Just Society. We believe public education is vital to building respect for the worth, dignity, and equality of every individual in our diverse society.
Democracy. We believe public education is the cornerstone of our republic. Public education provides individuals with the skills to be involved, informed, and engaged in our representative democracy.
Professionalism. We believe that the expertise and judgment of education professionals are critical to student success. We maintain the highest professional standards, and we expect the status, compensation, and respect due all professionals.
Partnership. We believe partnerships with parents, families, communities, and other stakeholders are essential to quality public education and student success.
Collective Action. We believe individuals are strengthened when they work together for the common good. As education professionals, we improve both our professional status and the quality of public education when we unite and advocate collectively.
This does not appear to be an organization that cares nothing about education.
But the Republican party has a great sounding list of things they care about, none of which you believe. Why is that?
Your point escapes me. Are you trying to say that we shouldn’t believe the NEA is concerned about schools because I find many items on the Republican political agenda counter productive.
I hate even wasting seconds of my life responding to your bigoted statement….it is not true and you know it….you seem to have a deep seated hatred for educators…read msalyjones’ below
How on Earth would you construe that as hatred? You called the the union rep a “jerk”, I concurred but pointed out that msallyjones defended his comments above. Many teachers are GREAT, are dedicated and work extremely hard. They should get a raise!
Shanker is indeed a figurehead in the teachers’ union and basically expressed no interest in representing the needs of children. The NEA “mission statement” suggests otherwise, but when I leader of the union makes a comment like that, I have to take it seriously.
Albert Shanker died in 1997. Here are some of his other quotes:
“Public schools played a big role in holding our nation together. They brought together children of different races, languages, religions, and cultures and gave them a common language and a sense of common purpose. We have not outgrown our need for this; far from it.”
“..a lot of people who have been hired as teachers are basically not competent”
“There is no more reason to pay for private education than there is to pay for a private swimming pool for those who do not use public facilities.”
“It is as much the duty of the union to preserve public education as it is to negotiate a good contract.”
“It’s dangerous to let a lot of ideas out of the bag, some of which may be bad. But there’s something that’s more dangerous, and that’s not having any new ideas at all at a time when the world is closing in on you.”
“When schoolchildren start paying union dues, that’s when I’ll start representing the interests of schoolchildren.” is often attributed to Shanker.The Albert Shanker Institute attempted to find the source of this quote, and concluded that “we cannot demonstrate conclusively that Albert Shanker never made this particular statement… but, we believe the quote is fiction.” The first appearance of the quote that they could find was in the Meridian (Mississippi) Star, August 13, 1985, which did not give a source.
Unions represent those who pay dues. There is nothing sinister about that statement. Unions can not by law meddle in schools, school policy, quality of teachers hired by the school board, teacher tenure, curriculum, treatment of children, school lunches, transportation, books and on and on. A union can only support and represent its members. How is this bad????
If you have poor teachers, your school board hired them, gave them tenure, and won’t follow their own legal policy for firing. This is not the fault of the teachers union
But I thought it was all about the children. At least that’s what I’m told every time taxes go up. What’s the matter? Don’t you care about the children?
Your school board is supposed to be all about children. Unfortunately people have elected school board members who have a laser focus on keeping taxes low not on education. People jump and shout about keeping local control of schools. OK you have local control and you’ve elected undereducated and tax cutting school boards and schools have suffered from their bad policy, bad decisions and bad hiring. You want local control; you’ve got it; now do something productive with it and quit blaming your mistakes on unions.
Unfortunately it is often only the people who want low taxes who run for school board. Civic participation at the local level in most towns is pretty one-sided.
Keeping taxes low???? That’s a good one. Oh…was that sarcasm?
Since 2000 to 2009 (the last year I could find data for) the cost per student has increased 55%. In that same time inflation was 23%. tax cutting school boards?? How can you possibly call that a cut??
85% of the school budget goes to salaries and benefits. Seems to me teachers are making out just fine. Our student…not so much.
Try this on for size…
http://blog.bestandworststates.com/2009/01/29/state-rankings-on-education-spending.aspx
“The Worst State Sat score comes from Maine yet it spends the 5th most money in the nation. “
There are many reasons for the the tax rate and the SAT scores. Do you want to discuss them or do you just want to keep blathering on about how high your taxes are and how awful teacher are?
Please do discuss the tax rate. In most towns around 70% of the property taxes go to the education empire. 85% of that goes to pay and benefits.
Every town sets its own tax rates and the town council or selectmen vote on it. Schools are usually the biggest employer in small towns. It takes a lot to run a school and yes teachers pay is the largest chunk of that money. What is your point? Do you want to reduce teachers’ pay?
I want results for the money. That’s the whole point of this discussion.
Then run for school board. Do what you can to make schools better.
I am sure that you are aware that Maine is the only state that requires all students to take the SAT, not just the college bound. All other state’s scores reflect just college bound students. You need to use other measures to understand how Maine stands when compared to other states. Try
http://www.alec.org/publications/report-card-on-american-education/
I’m aware of the continual shifting of student tests so that there can be no measure of how much we are receiving for the continual increase in costs we’re paying. You’d think that teachers would want to show us what a great job they’re doing. Instead the education empire continually changes the test so that , “You can’t compare this years tests to prior years because they’re different now”.
That’s because you want local control. Each little school unit is free to test in what ever way they think best. It is not teachers that have decided this. Most teachers would like to have national educational goals for each grade and national testing of those goals. Local school boards don’t want this to happen. Quit trying to blame teachers for the things your school board does.
You see nothing wrong with that statement? That says a lot…
It is the union that has negotiated policies that make it hard to fire bad teachers. And they clearly resist any effort to evaluate teachers and reward good ones. And since the union clearly cares not for our kids, I am decidedly anti-union.
A union can not direct , negotiate, suggest or influence school policy. If your school has a weak policy for firing teachers your school board wrote it. If they have a strong policy for firing teachers and don’t then your school board hired poor quality principals and superintendent who don’t do their job. Unions have absolutely no control of school boards, what policies the make or the people school boards hire.
Just out of curiosity, how much mileage can you expect to get with the “poor powerless teachers union” gambit?
Just out of curiosity how much milage can you expect to get by ignoring the part your locally controlled school board plays in the quality of your schools.
Welcome back, Bishop. Should we bring out our burqas?
Get ready for Bishop Cheesecake to pose yet another pointless rhetorical question. Oops, too late!
My graduates were prepared.
The 20% of college students who require remedial classes says that in general that is not true. And those are the best and brightest. Just imagine how poorly educated those who don’t attend college are. We deserve more for our $130,000 per student.
Lucky you. You won the teacher lottery. Your kids happened to go to a school where every teacher was equally good. My kids have had great teachers, average teachers and the occasional waste of space. I’d like the system to recognize the great ones, and get rid of the bad ones. Why don’t you want this for our kids?
Rep. Stacey Fitts
You should stick to your windmill fantasies and let the real republicans run this state.
The less taxes you collect, the less money will be wasted on these wind generation scams you are so fond of.
Giant corporations finding loopholes to get around taxes?! I am personally shocked!
As you should be…and as I am as well! Who’d of thought in America?
It’s not a loophole. It’s an actual law that’s been around for years.
When I worked at the Broadway department store in the 1980s, I made a sale to a customer from another state over the phone and did not charge her sales tax. She lived in a state where that company didn’t have any stores, so there was no sales tax collected.
Bravo Lindsay, Ken, and Stacey. All well stated. You nailed the problem each of your letters address. Well done!
The only thing Fitts did was come off sounding like a fool about loopholes when the reality is that forcing all companies ever to keep tax collection records for states they have no physical footprint in would be costly and put them out of business. This is why we have the use tax on our tax forms.
Not only that, but many states have counties that set their own sales tax rate as well.
Rep Fitts:The biggest joke is that the lack of sales tax is why the internet is filled with “deals” when it is a lack of overhead and more progressive business models developed by younger more tech savvy business people. A few bucks in sales tax is not what is making Amazon.com a worldwide leader in retail. The sooner that local businesses can figure out that expanding their store to an online presence can bring more sales and more money the better. Until then they will fight to pass legislation to cripple their competition rather than rise to the occasion and show us what this “capitalism” and “free market” is all about. It is nothing but less taxes and regulations when it is business making money but as soon as someone steps up with competition they need the government to fight their battles. The market is either free or regulated, you cannot eat your cake and have it too.
Flag
Rep. Fitts, nonsense. Consumers, not retailers, pay sales tax. Retailers that have no presence in Maine should not have to do the state’s bidding to collect the sales tax. It’s hardly a “loophole.” Perhaps if Maine retailers sold goods consumers want, Mainers wouldn’t have to buy from Amazon.com and other companies. Because the truth is, Maine retailers don’t offer a very wide selection of goods.
I agree. It’s NOT a loophole. It’s the law.
Rep. Stacey Fitts;Maybe you don’t file any income taxes, but if you did, you would know that you are specifically asked how much merchandise that you bought online with no taxes applied, and are required to pay the tax. So apparently the only people who would not be aware of this, are people who don’t file any taxes.
“Responsibility” Nanny Fitts….you mentioned the key word.
Actually, he does allude to this in his letter. He says, “These retailers are able to sell their products at lower prices under the assumption that you, the consumer, will go back and file sales taxes on your own time.” He isn’t, however, clear that the consumer should file it on the state income tax form.
Here’s a thought Stacey…How about luring online retailers to set up shop here with the same (or better) incentives other states give them, instead of punishing Maine consumers of their products by tacking on a sales tax thereby increasing the price. Oh yeah…because that hurts Maine businesses, when Maine only wants to hurt slobs in this state who don’t own businesses.
Lindsay: I’m surprised the ROBthePUBLICans didn’t claim that all of those Washington County voters were voting illegally anyway…or were actually Dems in ROBthePUBLICan clothing…or some other “We will eat our own to advance the agenda of party leaders” strategy. Again, why ANYONE in their right mind (earning less than $250,000) would support these goons is beyond me. Don’t like the Dems because they don’t support some weird social behavior agenda? Then form your own party…and not a fake non-grassroots Klan organization like the tea party to be used as pawns. You’re not used as pawns? Then please show me all that revolutionary change that was supposed to happen via the tea party freshman class sent to Congress…
School choice is a horrible choice…please don’t follow it like party sheep to slaughter…
While I understand the point of Rep. Fitts’ letter, I disagree with the tone of it.
The way he’s twisted his words to make the retailers look like evil corporate goons intent on ruining Maine is an insult to us all.
“These retailers are able to sell their products at lower prices under the assumption that you, the consumer, will go back and file sales taxes on your own time.” The “lower price” has nothing to do with sales tax. If a box of film costs $2.97 online but $6.00 in Bangor, it’d still be cheaper even with the sales tax. This is a misleading statement on her part.
What I really don’t like is that he admits twice that it’s the consumer’s responsibility to pay the sales tax. Why is he giving the consumer the free pass? Aren’t there laws that require us to pay taxes on such purchases? If so, why not enforce THOSE laws that already exist instead of going on about new laws.
It really sickens me that he’s giving the scofflaw a free pass. “It is time that online-only retailers start doing their fair share”?? NO-it’s time that WE MAINERS start doing our fair share and pay the sales tax! It’s OUR responsibility!!!
When does use tax apply?
Use tax applies when sales tax has not been charged. Purchases made over the internet and out-of-state are the most common type of transactions subject to a use tax. For instance, if you purchased goods from a supplier located in Massachusetts, whether by mail order or by taking delivery in Massachusetts, use tax applies if the goods are brought to Maine for use here. A Maine resident or business does not escape sales tax by purchasing out-of-state or over the internet. Use tax is based on the purchase price of the item.
http://www.state.me.us/revenue/salesuse/use%20tax.htm
It’s easily done either on the annual form or on a monthly form.
Also, a good “loophole” is to buy from an online retailer that has a presence here in Maine. I got a good deal on a camera at Bestbuy.com even WITH the sales tax charged.
….
When can we expect the announcement that Rep. Stacey Fitts is changing parties?
Brillant Rep. Fitts, brilliant. Have you not heard of Maine Use Tax? Maine citizens are already requried to pay the sales tax you’re also trying to reap from out-of-state merchants. Are you saying you’ll abolish the use tax if merchants pay instead? To suggest that Mainers should continue to ignore the law and not pay use tax doesn’t sound like a good position for a state rep to take.
That said, I would submit that out-of-state merchants should not pay ME sales tax AND the use tax should be abolished. Merchants out of state shouldn’t pay Maine sales tax because they don’t have the same reliance on state services that in-state merchants do. In-state merchants rely on infrastructure subsidized by the state… roads to carry customers (and services to keep those roads clear in the winter,) electricity to run their lights, police and fire protection, building code enforcement, and a whole host of other things. Consequently, taxing them on the sales they make in order to recoup some of those costs is acceptable. On the other hand, out-of-state merchants do not utilize those resources from the state of Maine… they rely on their OWN state, to whom they already pay taxes.
And the idea that the difference in sales tax is what’s creating “good deals” on the Internet is preposterous. What’s creating good deals is competition, and like it or not, Maine merchants aren’t good at it. I’m happy to pay an extra 15-20% to support a local business. But all too often the local markups are just too high. Look around… do you know how much an 8×10 print costs at Bangor Photo? $8.95. Why would I pay that when I can get the same thing (produced to higher standards,) for $2.00 with free shipping from WHCC.com? If they can sell it from Minnesota for that price, there’s no reason why Bangor Photo should be charging 450% more. The fact is, most Maine businesses are doing business like it’s 1972, not 2012.
Don’t whine because your coffers are down and then try to grab someone else’s revenue that you have no legitimate claim to. If you want some of that revenue, start behaving as someone in your position should, and work to draw merchants to the state who are willing to create their own thriving online businesses.
That’s really funny that you should mention the photo example. That was in my mind when I used my film example.
Re: the education discussion below:
One of the main problems of American education is that there is no consensus as to what education is for, what it should accomplish and how that should be accomplished. Because there is no agreement Americans use public education as a political football to promote religious, political or cultural agendas instead of trying to establish an understanding of what an educated child would look like and how we would achieve this without the interference of politics religion and culture warring over our kids.
Other countries have managed to remove education from the political sphere and their educational systems have profited from this removal.
I think you can pull the religious part of your statement out…..Heaven forbid the word “God” is mentioned in school…. the rest is good…
That doesn’t keep religious groups from fighting over curriculum, books and teaching methods. Nor does it keep them from trying to get sectarian prayer back in school. These kinds of fights are costly, waste tax payers time and money. See the Dover school incident. They distract the teachers that are getting pushed back and forth between competing agendas. Every time a curriculum is changed or new teaching methods are instituted the cost of education goes up. Putting a new text into a single grade level can cost upward of $5000.
Have fun all. I can’t do this anymore
Even more ad hominum attacks? And I’m smug?
In all of this debate you have yet to propose anything that will provide a better education for our children. Our children are tired of being left unprepared for the world.
I have in other posts on other days.
Ken- the argument that teacher pay should not be tied to performance because of circumstances at home does not hold water with me.
My boss demands a certain level of quality from my work. He could care less what my home life is like. If i fail to do my job effectively, guess what happens?
Your analogy to teaching should be: the school board will fire a teacher that lets her home life get in the way of competent teaching. And they do.
If the boss gave you shovels to work with instead of the drills you needed and then fired you for not producing a standardized product and quality work you would be justified in hiring a lawyer to dispute your firing.
That’s why teacher pay should not be tied to performance on standardized testing. Teachers don’t get to choose the children they teach.
In the Feb 16th article [Stop sales tax dodge], Rep. Stacey Fitts asserts that online companies are dodging sales taxes, and that consumers are ignorant of their responsibility to pay those taxes.
Lets be clear, the Maine sales tax law requires that any business with a presence in Maine must collect sales tax. You’ll find many businesses online that do collect Maine sales taxes, because they have a presence here.
Requiring businesses from afar to collect sales tax on all purchases would lead to many small businesses burdened with filing much more paperwork and trying to understand the legal jargon of every state, county, and city in the country (or world) that collects sales taxes, even though they may sell very little to Mainers. It would also be difficult to chase that money down from businesses outside the state.
Our former law and policy makers understood this and included an alternative “use” tax. They placed a line item on the state income tax forms which clearly states that we must pay these taxes, and offers an easy way to do so while we file our income taxes.
It is disturbing that one of our elected representatives could be so ignorant of these facts.