Wherever I ask people where the term “separation of church” comes from, they invariably answer, “It’s in the Constitution.” Well, that may be what the left in America wants you to think, but it’s just not true.
What is in the Constitution is Article I of the Bill of Rights, “Congress shall make no law establishing religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…” The infamous “separation of church and state” statement is found in a personal letter from Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury (Conn.) Baptists, in which Jefferson expressed his personal opinion.
As a Bible-believing Christian, and a local church pastor, I wish Sean Faircloth’s recent characterization of our current culture as decidedly pro-Christian was true ( “Separation of church and state, back by popular demand,” BDN Op-Ed, March 15) but I wonder what America he is living in.
He makes outrageous charges that “theocratic laws have already been passed in Congress,” “the religious right bias holds sway in the military” and that there is “religious bias in public schools and textbooks,” but offers not a single piece of evidence to substantiate his claims. He further declares, without verification, that because of this religious bias in government, there are “thousands of real people harmed” and that hundreds of children every year experience torture worse than Abu Ghraib.”
Outrageous beyond belief!
The sad truth is that there was a time in American history when the culture was decidedly Christian, but that time has long faded into obscurity. I was privileged to grow up in Bangor, when it was commonplace to read the Bible in class before we prayed and saluted the flag, and then started our school day.
God and country were proud themes in America, and Christmas carols were as common in school as they were in church.
But, since the Supreme Court decisions of 1962 and 1963, where the court held that prayer, Bible reading, the Ten Commandments and invocations and benedictions all violated the “Constitution’s wall of separation of church and state,” our culture has become increasingly nonreligious, and in many places, is even becoming aggressively anti-Christian.
A simple Google search of “religion in public school,” or “prayer in school banned,” or “bible in school banned” will find hundreds of illustrations. School texts have been stripped of pre-1960s references to God and Christianity in our nation’s history, while the writings of the Founders is replete with religious references. Even the Declaration of Independence references God four times.
In the military, we recently learned that Catholic chaplains were forbidden to read a letter from Archbishop Broglio to their parishioners. A Department of the Army policy recently stated, “No religious items (i.e. Bibles, reading material, and/or artifacts) are allowed to be given away or used during a visit” to Walter Reed Medical Center. The policy has since been overturned, but this kind of anti-religious bias is common. The Air Force Academy backed out of a toy drive, Operation Christmas Child, because it was done through a Christian organization.
While the premise of the article is clearly flawed, it is equally clear that Mr. Faircloth is unfamiliar with Christian teaching. He says it has harmed thousands. Yet the Bible always calls men to be loving, generous, kind, patient, forgiving, grateful and good. It says never return evil for evil and love your enemies. It tells its followers to submit to authority with respect and dignity, and always do the right thing, regardless of personal consequences.
Certainly there are individual failures, but the principles of Biblical Christianity have undergirded this great nation since its foundation, and we would serve America well by returning to the faith of our fathers.
It is obvious that someone’s values will govern America. Mr. Faircloth envisions a secular America where Hollywood morality is the norm. The Founders had a different vision. “The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence, were the general principles of Christianity,” wrote John Adams, the second president of the United States.
Rev. Roger E. Tracy has been an ordained minister for more than 40 years. He was born and raised in Bangor, where he has lived for nearly 60 years.
All you have to do is look at the Air Force Academy in Colorado – and then try to tell me Christianity holds no sway in our military. It’s sickening what non-christian airmen/women have to put up with. It’s not right. We are a SECULAR nation and that’s what makes us strong. If I wanted to be ruled by the Taliban I’d live in Afghanistan. Santorum and his ilk want us to be christian. So wrong in every way.
If christians would only act like christians and respond to the teachings of Jesus, the gentle teacher, we’d all be a lot better off.
Unfortunately, even Christians are human and therefore can only strive to follow Jesus’ example.
The problem is that so many Christians twist Jesus’s words to mean the very opposite of what they’re supposed to, then storm their way through life being utterly un-Christ-like in the name of Christ.
Sounds like more of an excuse than anything else. When they get caught with their knickers down Gingrich and is his ilk are always saying ” I asked God for forgiveness” as though that makes all the crap they did OK. What BS! And people actually buy it! Sure we are all “human” but you cannot claim to be an authentic Christian and then tell the sick and poor of America “screw you, no more social services. I don’t care if you do die.” What hypocrisy!
A problem occurs, however, when most Christians try to turn the human Jesus into a god — because it is impossible to imitate a god’s behavior. If Jesus is human, and not divine, I can follow his example. Turn him into a divine being and you’ve taken him away. I can’t emulate the behavior of a god. He’s of no value to me when he is elevated to divine status, not to mention the fact that having three gods and a semi-divine Mary, and all the saints, seems a bit polytheistic.
I agree with you to the extent that far too many self professed Christians do not “walk the walk” while “talking the talk”. For them, they have already received their “reward” according to scripture. There are however many basic teachings which are found in many faiths and indeed in secular law
Do not murder, do not steal, do not commit adultery, quickly come to mind. The idea that if any of these basics are taught then it is a collusion of church and state is ludicrous beyond the realm of sanity. Aesop, Socrates, Buddha, Jesus, to name a few have all taught moral values during their time on earth. All have sop ken of the same values in their own way. If these values seem to come from religious belief then so be it. The values are based on life’s experiences and are no less valid because they are taught in churches rather than in public schools or the home . It only means that public schools or some families have turned their back on that which is true by historical standards. And no one likes authority of a higher power to be over them. Therefore they deny it.
Atheists have high moral standards. You don’t need a bible to be moral and know what’s right and wrong.
It’s amazing how many can’t grasp that simple fact. Many of my atheist have higher moral behavior than many I know who are always talking about morals. You find out most what one’s morals are by the actions more than their words.
You are right on Rev. Tracy. You would have to be in complete denial to not acknowledge that Christianity was the basis for the moral stability that this country was founded on. Regardless of whether or not you practiced religion every Sunday it has always been clear that we are a Christian nation. It is the number one reason we are the greatest nation in the world.
As a vet I can tell you that you can still walk into any military barracks around the world and the motto “God and Country” is as strong as ever. Our military is 99% Christian.
Also, “as a vet,” 99% is a bit of a stretch.
What do you basis this 99% on? A valid source, I doubt it.
Untrue.
While I recognize the vast majority of Christians are good Americans, the most hateful and hurtful people in this country are “Christianists,” those who seek to misuse the power of the Law to force their “beliefs” onto all other Americans in clear violation of the US Constitution.
99%? Seriously, you need to recalculate. The percentage of atheists is higher in the military than in the general population, which is already around 14%.
14%? That high? While I respect the consistency of the atheist’s beliefs, and acknowledge that atheists are likely to be as moral, and sometimes more moral, than people who express religious faith, that number seems high. Are you counting agnostics, skeptics, nothings, and I-don’t-knows in with atheists? Where did you find the 14% number? I’m not hostile to your answer, just curious.
Well, I stand partially corrected; A new religion poll with even better numbers:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/03/28/gallup-32-of-americans-are-nonreligious/
Religion is the last vestige of
feudalism in our society, I won’t begrudge anyone who wants to practice
religion, but please keep it out of my face (so to speak).
Ancient superstitions are an obstruction to the progress of modern
man and society, and an attempt to control individuals, nothing more.
Except for the fact that the Pilgrims outlawed Christmas celebrations…
Dream on.
Really because I would kill, steal, cheat if it wasn’t for the bible.
Separation of church and states helps prevent being over run by christian clerics, it helps prevent religious war from destroying us from within over a myth. If only the middle east realized it also.
The religious right extremists in the U.S. are no better than the other religious extremists around the world. They ARE the American Taliban. Good grief, listen to Santorum. How scary is that!
Frightening beyond words.
I respectfully disagree with the author’s view of the Constitution, the views of the Founders, the experience of being non-Christian in the military, and the notion that God, in particular the Christian God, belongs in our public schools or our public institutions.
Our Founders quite clearly saw the divisive effects of religious strife on the countries in Europe during their lifetimes and wisely identified the potential disruptive influence that religion could be for our emerging democracy. They understood the tyranny of the majority and the horrific consequences to the lives and consciences of ordinary men and women should the policy of the nation change with regard to the custom of religion in that country. They saw the corrosive effect on society as religious views changed as one sect or the other gained ascendency.
To find one’s conscience, one’s belief, one’s morality is part of a uniquely human quest we all undertake in our lives and the results of that quest may be an atheist, a practicing Christian, a Jew, a Muslim, a Hindu, a Wiccan, a Buddhist…any number of choices are possible. And there is honor and morality in each of those choices.
To maintain one’s faith under the pressure of a dominant majority of other faiths is difficult, to discover a divergent path in such a climate is even harder; but again this is part of the test life gives us all.
It is incumbent on all of us to respect the consciences of others. Part of that respect comes in the form of avoiding institutionalizing religious practices of one group over another in public life.
My family were Christian, I became a Buddhist at 13. I have been Buddhist ever since. I am a moral person. I struggle to live by the tenets of my faith and belief system just as others work hard to live by theirs. I have served in the military, raised a child, and consider myself to be a decent individual. Not perfect, but decent.
I do not begrudge my Christian friends their Christmas. I am pleased when Muslim friends include me at Eid. I have been to Passover Seder at the homes of my Jewish friends. I am content with my friends who are atheist and rejoice in their friendship.
I do not feel a need to erect a statue of the Buddha on the courthouse lawn at public expense, a monument with a Buddhist symbol, nor do I feel that the courthouses of my nation should all have plaques listing the Eightfold Path in their lobbies. Similarly, I do not feel that is a place for Christian symbols either.
It is the assumption of religion in the public sphere that forever places a wedge between us.
If I go to Court to offer testimony, I must decline the Bible…it would be hypocracy and highly inappropriate for me to swear by it…both by my beliefs and by the traditional beliefs in my Christian family. This stands out. It casts doubt. Who is this stranger among us? Is their truth as good as the person who swore on a Bible? Why may they simply affirm? And what are they whispering about with the Court clerk anyway?
In public school it makes a difference. I love music, I enjoy Christian musical literature. Still, it makes one feel an outsider that only one holiday is sung about as was the case when I was young and in school. It makes a difference when all the symbols are those of another faith.
It makes a difference for those of us who use the original Pledge of Allegiance, as I have done since I was 13…the one omitting the phrase “under God” which was inserted later. I was asked many times as a child…don’t you love America? Do you hate God? The answer is that I do love America, and no, I do not hate the Christian God. I simply follow a different faith.
It makes a difference for those of us who remained silent during public prayers…prayers that were generally only Christian.
It makes a difference in the military, where there is strong pressure in some commands to conform to a religious belief system…generally Christian. And I am DEEPLY grateful to the many military chaplains who took the time and effort to learn about my faith and bring comfort to me…and to explain to the occasional unit member why it was that it was inappropriate to ask me to attend services or offer a Christian prayer.
I am deeply grateful to the VA for sticking by their ruling to force groups that do graveside services to CHECK with the FAMILY FIRST before barging forward with a Christian observance. I do not want my daughter, who will be upset and grieving to have to sit trying to decide whether it is less rude to interrupt what was probably a good intention when an organization starts a Christian observance assuming I must be one, or more rude to have her mother’s life long beliefs ignored at her interment service. And yet, in all the brouhaha about this issue, the plaintive cry of some of those of Christian faith was predominant who insisted on their rights and freedoms and inflated conflict over the issue…when it was only that they had been requested to do the courtesy of asking after the faith of the fallen before embarking on a ceremony.
Christians in public discourse sometimes appear to feel victimized by the requests of those of other faiths, or no faith, to not place their symbols and practices in our public sphere. Yet we do not represent the symbols and traditions of other faiths at the public expense in the fashion we have for Christian observances. We do not schedule our “winter vacations” to match the traditions of non-Christian holidays.
I am all for practicality, some accommodation for the majority is reasonable, but really where does it stop? Must every school become a Christian house of worship before Christians feel they are no longer oppressed? And if so, have the Christians agreed on which of their sects is going to win out? Which version of the Ten Commandments to use is even a cause of debate!
Yet, there is no compassion from these Christians for the effect that their overwhelming presence has upon those of us of other faiths who are routinely excluded by default.
Difference can be character building…and I certainly have had plenty of opportunities to gain character on this issue.
I suggest that we follow our faiths, or our morality, privately. That we respect each others’ traditions. And that we leave off insisting that our way is the only way or the corollary, if I don’t get my way, I am being persecuted, suppressed, etc.
Mr. Tracy, your piece seems to engender division and promote a political agenda. Please stop.
Allow all of us, of all faiths and no faith, to live together and honor each other without stirring conflict among us.
I will tell you, sir, that I don’t want your god, my neighbor’s god, or anyone else’s god in my children’s school. And with schools needing all the help they need, kids don’t need to be wasting class time on anyone’s god at all.
And America was better when God was in school, in the 50s…but only for SOME people.
I have to concur with your statement; religion is the last vestige of feudalism in our society, I won’t begrudge anyone who wants to practice religion, but please keep it out of my face (so to speak). I am also bothered by churches, mosques, and temples being tax-exempt – let them participate in modern society as the rest of us do.
Ancient superstitions are an obstruction to the progress of modern man and society, and an attempt to control individuals, nothing more.
Amen, Rev. Tracy.
I, too, went to school when Bible reading, prayer, and the Pledge started every school day. It was a great time of cohesiveness and learning. And we had respect for the flag, for the country, for each other, and for God.
Unfortunately, the day is past when God reigned in America. He had been expelled from schools, rejected from many churches, reviled by the lost, and demeaned by Hollywood. I believe America has long passed the point of no return. But, one of these day, we will all realize the mistake we made. One of these days we will ALL bow down to the One and Only. That day will be glorious for some, but not so great for so many others.
Were these public schools that you and Rev. Tracy attended that featured Bible reading and prayer? That may have been the case in Maine but not in the Midwestern schools I grew up in.
I went to a one-room schoolhouse for grades 1 and 2. The teacher read from the Bible every morning, then we recited the Lord’s Prayer and the Pledge of Allegiance. The one-room schoolhouse was closed down and we were bused to the next town where our 3rd grade teacher did the same thing. The Supreme Court ruled, and from the 4th grade on, we only did the Pledge every day. However, for the rest of my time at school, many of the older teachers proudly displayed their Bibles on their desks. And we had Bibles, Torahs, and a Quran in the school library under “References”.
Thank you for your comments. I appreciate them and can also remember those days. God has not changed only people have changed. It is sad that today’s Christians have lowered their standards so much that it has hurt so many of the people that are on here today. It is true that there is a cloak of religion out there. It is also true that there are people who still believe and live their lives for God.
Its funny, Under God was added to our pledge, and made our Motto out of FEAR of communism.
If you so hate our country, no one is forcing you to remain here. Threatening us with your God is offensive.
I neither hate nor threaten. You are far too easily offended.
So you desire to return to the days when your god was in the schools, but the black children were not? I understand the allure of a previous “golden age”, all societies generate such a myth. Usually the “golden age” was only good for a select few, at the cost of the rest.
And when Natives were in rundown schools with leaking roofs and no heat. I wouldn’t want to go back in time because I enjoy the technology that we have now.
Right-wing christian fanaticism such as yours is simply a crutch for your superstitions. Keep “your god” where it belongs, in private; along with your hate-mongering.
If there’s any hate in my comments, it’s there because you’re injecting it. I hate no one.
“One of these days we will ALL bow down to the One and Only. That day
will be glorious for some, but not so great for so many others. ” – As a humanist and atheist this is hate speech from my perspective – “glorious for some but not for others” is offensive to me and demonstrates christian intolerance of others; its just outright medieval.
How can it possibly be hateful or offensive? You don’t believe in God, so what have you to fear? I’m not afraid of or offended by things I don’t believe in.
EJ, I was a child in the Detroit, Michigan, public schools in the 1950s. We NEVER had prayers or Bible readings in public school. I do, however, clearly remember when Congress changed the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag, inserting “under God” into the phrase, “one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.” I came back to school one year, after summer vacation, to find that they had changed the Pledge of Allegiance — that was as much “religion” as we got in public school.
Was Michigan a less moral state than Maine in the 1950s? I don’t think so.
The entire country was more moral back then. God was more a part of our everyday lives than one might realize or even remember. The older generation back then had more respect for the country, the flag, and for each other. The draft was mandatory and most young men learned about God, country and teamwork. It was commonplace, at least in Northern Maine, to bring a rifle to school, on the bus, to show off at the high school gun club or just to show to a teacher that was interesting in firearms. And no one was ever killed with these guns. Kids didn’t rely on brand-name clothing or gangs in order to feel important or noticed. Sure, there were cliques, but they were harmless.
Back then, one job would support the family and the bills. Doctors made house calls. Church bells rang on Sunday mornings. No one would let the American flag touch the ground. Teachers were respected. The “Three Rs” were taught to everyone. Kids learned to drive on real roads, not school parking lots. Neighbors knew each other and actually knew their neighbors’ neighbors. Morals were moral, not relative.A lot of things were better back then. And whether you want to admit it or not, it had a lot to do with our attitude about God.
I expect that you are already compiling your list of things that were bad back then. Don’t waste your time. I know life in the USA has never been perfect, but it has been much, much better than it is right now.
1) You didn’t answer my question — was Maine more moral than Michigan was in the 1950s because your school had prayer and my Michigan school did not? Did that make Michigan immoral?
2) I see you are trying to preempt the obvious argument — that we had segregation in the 1950s — by saying, “I expect that you are already compiling a list of things that were bad back then…” If you were black and suffered the oppression of segregation, or Jewish and couldn’t get into many hotels, private schools or clubs, you wouldn’t say the U.S. was more moral back then. For that matter, if you were gay, and could get arrested for just going to a bar and having a beer with another gay guy, you wouldn’t say that was more moral, either. Lots of God-fearing people supported the KKK in the ’50s, and hated Jews.
We had lots of prayer back when we had slavery, too. The U.S. wasn’t perfect when you had prayer in school (and I didn’t)? No, it was worse in many ways than it is now.
1) I wasn’t born until the mid-50s, and I didn’t know a thing about Michigan.
2) I was born and raised in the utter poverty that was, and still is, much of Northern Maine. I worked the harvest every fall from the age of 6. Most of the money from the annual harvest went for clothes for the school year, a couple of presents for Christmas for my brother and grandparents, and food for the family. I stood on the bottom rung of the poverty ladder for years, all the while wanting to climb out of the pit. Thank God that the Air Force came along and gave me a way out. I know about poverty. I know about being looked down on. I’ve lived the life. So don’t lecture me about being oppressed or downtrodden.
For your information, segregation still exists and is primarily perpetrated by the minorities themselves in order that they can throw the appropriate card whenever things don’t go their way. You want hate? Just look at the actions of the 99 and the Black Panthers as of late. And their actions are approved, either through verbal consent or silence, by the President and his pal, Eric Holder. Then the mainstream media practically ignores them while piling on the lies and insinuations about the Tea Party.
You know the Tea Party. That group that loves this nation, loves freedom, and loves each other. The people that clean up after themselves and never get arrested. That peaceful, inclusive group that only wants what’s good for America and for the American people. Of course, if you listen to the mainstream media, you probably think we’re actually terrorists in red, white, and blue shirts.
Can you tell I’m getting a little sick of the same old empty comments and insinuations from the other side? What ever happened to the ability to reason and dialogue?
1) You are still avoiding the question.
2) You are changing the subject. Yes, poverty, white of black, is a problem. But when you’re poor because you are truly not allowed to advance yourself, and you are humiliated day in and day out by being called “boy” even if you are an adult, and you are not allowed to use public bathrooms or drinking fountains or swimming pools or lunch counters or schools because you are a “dirty n—-r,” and the law is on the side of the people who are humiliating you, that’s called “segregation,” and more prayer in school doesn’t make it better.
Are the Black Panthers still around? How about the KKK?
The Tea Party and Eric Holder (issues you and I surely disagree on) are irrelevant to the question of whether prayer in public schools makes us a more moral nation. You keep changing the subject and avoiding the question.
1) I answered your question. I don’t know.
2) I admitted that there were bad things happening back then. I in no way inferred that I wanted the bad things to return.
“Are the Black Panthers still around?” They have a $10,000 bounty on the Hispanic man that shot the 17 year old black kid down here in Florida. The bounty, by the way, is a dead-or-alive bounty. Of course, the mainstream media is avoiding any news of the Black Panthers like the plague, so you probably wouldn’t hear about it.
The KKK? I can’t remember the last time they made the news.
The Tea Party is one of the most vile, un-American groups I’ve ever seen. Granted, it’s not nearly as bad as, say, the Taliban or the Westboro Baptist Church, but the hatred and insanity they promote is still incredibly revolting.
And don’t you dare try to pin the blame for racial unrest on minorities. They wouldn’t be shouting in anger if society actually started treating them with the dignity they deserve.
If that’s your impression of the Tea Party, then you have never been to a Tea Party event, and you get your news from the mainstream media. You couldn’t be more wrong.
As for minorities being blamed for racial unrest, no, I don’t blame the minorities. I blame people like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson, because without a racial divide, they would be nothing. So, they make sure the racial divide is alive and thriving.
I think I just threw up in my mouth.
LOL. Highlight the good and ignore the bad. You’re incredibly bias and untruthful. That’s not moral.
I highlighted the good and admitted there was bad. And there is good and bad in this day and age. The trouble is, the bad now outweighs the good by a long shot. Of course, it’s all in how you look at it. Right?
Yes, I thank God that we are less prejudiced and more accepting of people regardless of their race, sex, ethnicity, and sexual orientation. We are far from perfect, but we have improved considerably. You prefer the bad old days, I realize.
There is still plenty of prejudice and intolerance to go around. Most of the prejudice these days is aimed at white, male, conservative Christians. Most of the intolerance is aimed at Christians, the wealthy, and Republicans. And rightly so. After all, they are trying to suppress and oppress the masses that want nothing more than to have their “fair share” handed to them, with no strings attached, and at no cost to them.
Shame on those radical religious zealots for shoving their morality and beliefs down our throats.
Shame on those filthy Republicans for attempting to take away our free health care, contraceptives, and cradle-to-grave government assistance.
Shame on the Tea Party for flying the American flag at their events, praying to their offensive and intolerant God, and trying to take down our White House messiah.
And shame on Fox News,,,,, well, they’re just the worst bunch of radical right wing liars that there ever was.
Glad I didn’t have coffee in my mouth. Those poor, poor white, male, conservative Christians. They’ve had it so hard and they are so mistreated.
And how dare anyone say anything mean about Fox News because it is so “fair and balanced.” BTW: Fair and balanced means that they should cover both sides of a story and that they should have good stories about the other side, as well as bad ones. When a new stations only reports the negative side of a person or topic, it is no longer fair and balanced. More like “Vial and One-sided.”
{ Congress shall make no law establishing religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…”}
The author of this article puposely misquoted the ist amendment!
I would expect the same from his interpertation of the Christian Doctrine and that is why there most certainly IS an Intended Seperation of Church and State.
He can Believe what he wants but don’t force his haluecenations on me!
“Congress shall make no law ””respecting an establishment of religion”””, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. “
I apologize for the misquote, it was not intentional, but only intended to show that the phrase “separation of church and state” is not in the Constitution as so many believe. It was written in my first draft, and not picked up and corrected in the final copy.
However, the misquote does not change a thing. The point of the article was to repudiate Mr. Faircloth’s contention that we are somehow nearing a theocratic state where government religious bias has permeated every fabric of our culture. In my view, nothing could be further from the truth.
“The civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability, and performs its functions with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the State”
That was James Madison, who WROTE the Constitution and Bill of Rights. It CLEARLY shows separation was the intent. Other Madison quotes reflect the same philosophy.
Something tells me it wasn’t “great” for those who were coerced into parroting a religious philosophy they did not care for or agree with. Who are you to decide what others should think and believe? Who are you to compel through coercion that others who don’t believe as you do to parrot what you believe? Who are you to say these people should not be able to think freely and for themselves, instead of parroting your beliefs?
I do not think Christians are deciding anything for you. We simply show you a way to God and salvation through Jesus Christ. God made sure we have free will which you are exercising in your own life. With my free will, I choose God. To me, it is water for a thirsty, dying desert traveler. No one will try to coerce you…it is a loving gesture offered to you. It is up to you to accept or reject…as simple as that.
Freedom from religion is as important as freedom of religion. Do you worship Alah, Jehovah, the Earth Goddess, do you adhere to the tenants of each and every religion, insulting none, obeying all, or only the “one true god” and the rest of us are heathens?
I do not want my children forced to participate in, or listen to your “God Father” myths. Your churches live free on my tax money already, your employees, religious or not can be denied the benefits for health care to meet your creed.
Please believe if it makes you happy, if it keeps you quiet, but do not force your religion on me or mine. Just because I would take up arms to defend your right to worship does not mean you can take my rights to demand I follow your creed. My wife will not wear a burka, my son will not be mutilated at birth by circumcision to give blood to an old man in the sky. My daughter will not be told what to do by men.
I will defend you and yours. If your god won’t have me when I die, that is my problem.
Our founding fathers were much more homogeneous religiously than our nation is today. There is no returning to the Christian faith in place at the founding of this country,nor the Christian faith prevalent 50 or 60 years ago. We are a religiously diverse nation and we need to respect the faith of all of our people.
I cannot understand how someone of Christian faith could believe that forcing people to pray a prayer they do not believe in is somehow pleasing to God. Cannot justice be carried out equally well without a posting of the Ten Commandments? We don’t need more people of faith, we need more people of compassion and example.
I have a crucifix on my wall at home. I happen to like the religious, meditative value of that crucifix in my daily life. But I certainly don’t believe that every decent family must hang a crucifix on their wall in order to be moral.
Others have commented on your intrepretation of Church and State, the Constitution, hloiday music, and the philosophies of the Founding Fathers, in this forum and elsewhere. I too find them simplistic, exclusive, and not necessarily true.
Another good point is which Christian religious group would be promoted in public schools? Catholic? (prayers considerably diffent than many protestants) Baptist? (requirement of acceptance of Christ as Savior). They’re called public schools for a good reason: they educate the general public (which is becomming less and less homogenious even in Maine). If you want your particular form of Christianity in a school, find an appropriate parochial school. All morals do not stem from just one religion.
More propaganda and revisionist history.
Really? No. Really?? While I respect Mr. Tracy for his years of devotion and readily admit that churches do a lot for communities, I disagree that we would do ” well by returning to the faith of our fathers.”
Before this nation was a reality, conventional wisdom was that the world was flat, women had no rights and white was the only color. We have learned a lot since then.
It took a long time for the slaves to gain freedom, for women to become equal and in my 48 years, I am happy to see bigotry being replaced with acceptance. I recall Sunday School, prayer and the Pledge of Allegience but do not believe any of it makes me a better person today and I think it belongs where it is, in the past.
Whether it is 60 or five hundred years ago, a person would be considered a fool to openly question the existence of god, shake the hand of a black man or respect the authority of a woman. Yes, “When God was in school and state” we were on the wrong path and while the bible may have a lot of good things between it’s covers, it relies upon believing in what you cannot see, what you cannot prove, what you cannot touch. Kids believe in Santa until the day they learn otherwise because it is what everyone else around them believes and to not believe would mean no presents. In my opinion, the same can be said for religion as a whole. There is no eternal anything and if you want to believe you are going to heaven or you will get 70 virgins when you die because you believe, you go right on ahead but, do not think that everyone else around you needs that in ther lives.
Rellay? No, Really? To be a Bible believing Christian makes you a woman hating, racist, flat-world fanatic? Really??
I am happy to see that your world view has seen bigotry replaced by acceptance… acceptance for all except Christians, that is.
In more than 40 years, I have not once heard anyone say “there is no eternal anything…” at a funeral… I wonder if you will…
I never said that being a Christian makes you anything. But, if Christians actually followed their beliefs, our history would reflect how this group stood against slavery and held their women to be equals. It would be nice to ponder how history might reflect such a thing. Unfortunately, history shows us the truth. I do not mind saying I believe it is ridiculous and detrimental to place one’s trust in a higher power. That does not make me accepting of everyone except christians. While you may wish to stereotypically thump upon your bible and condemn me, facts are facts. We live in an age of knowledge and media that allows us to quickly find answers to our questions. None of which are in, the bible. All the rhetoric about how science has not proven exactly how life began or exactly how the earth was created is a poor excuse for ignoring the facts. And to emerge from your basement after a tornado, declaring that you prayed and prayed and god answered your prayers while apparently ignoring the prayers of others is not proof that your beliefs, your prayers or anything short of luck is to credit. God was a splendid idea back when nobody knew why the volcano erupted or why the winds blew or why the giant wave came crashing ashore. Of course, now we know the world is not flat, we know why the tsunami comes to shore we know why the earthquakes happen and we know what causes tornadoes. If devotion and prayer worked, we would not need sirens to to warn us, we could all just pary really, really hard. You may continue to live in your world of what I consider to be make-believe without giving an ounce of regard to mine. However, if you believe that we should all go back to a time that you are comfortable with, a time before the religious debacles of “church leaders” such as Oral Roberts, The Bakers, Carlson, et-al and sexual abuses by clergy, you are deserving of criticism. History has spoken, and it is, THE truth.
Subject: [bdn] Re: When God was in school and state, US was better
The more you write, the more two things become abundantly clear; that you have actually read little or none of the Bible, and that you have a very limited understanding of the role of religion and the founding of our great nation.
You might be interested to know that true science (not scientific theory such as evolution) and the Bible are very compatible. The Bible has many answers, and in many cases, science is relatively late catching up. Did you know that Leviticus 17:11 says, “…the life of the flesh is in the blood…”. Science didn’t catch on to that until the 1700’s. The Biblical account of creation is mirrored in the evolutionary theory, and has no more factual basis for proof than the Bible. You can’t tell me when, where, how, or why, and yet you denegrate faith as ridiculous and detrimental.
In our enlightened world of knowledge and information, we readily attribute nature’s power to Mother Nature, yet deny the true Creator (you know the one the founders said gave us those inalienable rights).
None of my words have condemned you. I have not ridiclued or called names, yet your lack of tolerance for those of a biblical worldview is evident. Yes, FACTS are FACTS, and that IS the truth… and the truth shall set you free… that’s in the Bible too.
The more you write, the more two things become abundantly clear; that you have actually read little or none of the Bible, and that you have a very limited understanding of the role of religion and the founding of our great nation.
My understanding of the role of religion and the founding of this nation are hardly relevant given my earlier points. I do not believe in god. Therefore the role such a belief had on my ancestors does nothing to change my position. Of course I have not read the bible, for the same reasons I do not read Harry Potter. I continue to write because your OpEd piece suggested that our nation would be better if we all followed YOUR views.
You might be interested to know that true science (not scientific theory such as evolution) and the Bible are very compatible. The Bible has many answers, and in many cases, science is relatively late catching up. Did you know that Leviticus 17:11 says, “…the life of the flesh is in the blood…”. Science didn’t catch on to that until the 1700’s. The Biblical account of creation is mirrored in the evolutionary theory, and has no more factual basis for proof than the Bible. You can’t tell me when, where, how, or why, and yet you denegrate faith as ridiculous and detrimental.
I maintain that putting your trust in a higher power is ridiculous and detrimental. So, if faith is believing in a magical place called heaven, so be it denegration on my part. As for the quote, I am glad to see that someone found the connection between bleeding a lot and death. The recognition of cause and effect was a huge milestone for mankind and led us to where we are today. To infer that the bible got there first is rather amusing.
In our enlightened world of knowledge and information, we readily attribute nature’s power to Mother Nature, yet deny the true Creator (you know the one the founders said gave us those inalienable rights).
That is funny. Nature’s power is referred to as “Mother Nature”, but nobody ever says “God sent a tornado through a midwestern town today, killing 7. One family who prayed, survived. It is assumed the dead were heathens.” Of course our founders made reference to god. Mankind was still discovering things, erasing other cultures in the name of god, enslaving those who were not white in the name of god. Mankind was still getting used to the idea that the earth was round and to not toe the popular belief would be frowned upon.
None of my words have condemned you. I have not ridiclued or called names, yet your lack of tolerance for those of a biblical worldview is evident. Yes, FACTS are FACTS, and that IS the truth… and the truth shall set you free… that’s in the Bible too.
Of course not. You cannot condemn me for I am not a puppet nor you, my puppeteer. My lack of tolerance is for the bigots, the racists, and those who want to tell me what I should believe in. I believe a biblical worldview is one of narrow-mindedness held by the person with that view because the christian view is not the catholic view or the muslim view , etc. The best thing that could happen to our world is to remove religion all together until the definitive discovery of a god and having that god tell us what religion is the right religion. Until then, all the religious zealots are going to keep fighting like kids on the playground about how they are better and how the others are going to hell. When you step back and look, it is all ridiculous and hard to believe. Do christians chuckle at the notion a muslim will be rewarded with virgins? Did christians snicker when the catholic church settled sex abuse claims for $85 million? Maintaining control over people out of fear that they will go to hell if they do not follow the bible must be a power trip. Do not forget, that my first comment was one of respect for both you and the church. I am a free person, not because I believe in some god. It is because I live in America, not Iraq.
Subject: [bdn] Re: When God was in school and state, US was better
As a young student in elementary school I remember feeling very uncomfortable. My third-grade teacher preached to us. She read parts of the bible every morning, and her selections were usually from the Old Testament. These readings promised hellfire and damnation to the students who believed differently than this teacher/precher.
Now as a young member of The Society of Friends (commonly called Quakers) I learned a different lesson. In First-Day School, God was good, a friend, and you did not need a preacher, minister, or rabbi in order to converse with him. We learned that heaven and hell were here on earth and that you could select the path you chose and God would not intervene.
When I became an adult I left religion, the tooth fairy, and Santa with my childhood. It is a good place for them.
The author misquotes the Constitution. The first amendment actually says, “Congress shall make no law RESPECTING and ESTABLISHMENT of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” I apologize for the caps, they are simply to point on the author’s mistakes when quoting the Constitution. It seems pretty clear from this reading of the first amendment (you know, that one that is actually written) that there is an intended separation of church and state in the Constitution, not by those exact words, but it is there.
You are correct. Also: 1) the Constitution deliberately leaves out words such as “God,” “Jesus,” and “Christian” — the preamble begins by saying that “We, the people” ordain and establish the government. It is not ordained, nor established, by God. 2) Article VI paragraph 3 says that “no religious test shall be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.” 3) The oath of office for the president, in Article II Section 1, is religiously neutral. Furthermore, the president may either “swear (or affirm)” the oath (parentheses in the original), allowing people who for religious reasons do not swear oaths to simply affirm. Add that to 4) the First Amendment, and we have what Jefferson called “a wall of separation between church and state” and James Madison, the “Father of the Constitution,” called “a complete separation of all things governmental and ecclesiastical.”
As Madison said, ”
“The civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability, and performs its functions with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the State” ”
Rev. Roger Tracy’s piece, although I have many disagreements with it, attempts to be rational and reasonable. Sean Faircloth, although he made some valid points, was largely over the top with his comments. Faircloth seems to have written with his gut, and not his brains.
At the end, Rev. Tracy quotes one of our Founding Fathers, President John Adams, saying, “The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence, were the general principles of Christianity.” Yet Most evangelical Christians, perhaps even Rev. Tracy, do not consider Adams himself to have been a Christian, since Adams was a member of a church that denied the doctrine of the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus. Adams’ definition of “Christian” was very broad. Most evangelical Christians today have a definition that is very narrow — many of them, on these pages, have said that Roman Catholics, Mormons, and Unitarians, for instance, cannot be considered Christian.
So that would leave out the Deist, Thomas Jefferson, as well. Yes, in the Declaration of Independence, Jefferson refers to God four times, as Rev. Tracy points out. But the Declaration spoke of “Nature and Nature’s God,” a Deist term, not a biblical term. Jefferson, Adams, Washington, Franklin, and most of the Founding Fathers were not the kind of “Christians” that today’s evangelicals and fundamentalists would approve of.
“As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense,
founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of
enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as
the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against
any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext
arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of
the harmony existing between the two countries.” Quote from the Treaty of Tripoli, 1797. There were a few guys in power that wrote the Constitution, ie. the basis for our government. What a bummer when history and facts don’t agree with you.
Correct. The Treaty of Tripoli was negotiated during the Washington Administration, signed by President Adams, and ratified by the Senate without controversy or dissent.
The religious right tries to lay claim to everything, including morality and our country. The framers where 1000 time more intelligent than those who claim all for themselves. Not only do they lay claim to all the earth and its resources but have formed an un-holy coalition with the extreme rightwing which insists on a perpetual war with anyone they deem a threat. It is not God they worship, it is greed at any cost. We’ve all seen how their clergy act on their so called principles as so many have committed crimes against humanity. After a 1000 years of oppression and total control of education and their brand of religieon history reminds us of the outcome … the dark ages. Using the same reasoning and the same documentation do they really expect us to believe that the outcome will be any different today?
Now along with the unbelievers, we have Christians persecuting Christians. My, my, my…before we know it, we will be fighting each other as the Muslims have for over 4000 years. Reverend Tracy must have really scared the minions as evidenced by comments to his article. As I see it, he is simply trying to show people the way not to be left behind. The United States was definitely better when God was allowed in our schools and daily life!
Good point regarding Muslims fighting since….forever. Another point of proof that religion is not helping anybody, regardless of faith. When god was allowed in schools, it was acceptable to be a bigot and racist. Sounds like some folks want to go back to what they truly believe were the good old days. Fact is, we still had serial murderers, pedophiles, rapists and other ilk back when god was in our schools. A belief in god did not prevent it. Fact is, we did not have a method of reporting it to the masses. Fact is, the news of the past few years indicates there are more pedophiles in church than in any other group in America! What was that settlement the church made? $85 million! Wow! Everytime the plate passes, doesn’t anybody feel dirty for paying that bill? How could anybody support that without feeling a little dirty themselves? How could anybody NOT question their beliefs?
4000 years? Seriously? Islam was founded around the year 610, which would peg it at a little over 1400 years. You have no clue what you’re talking about.
I realize that Islam was founded over 1500 years ago. I was being sarcastic about the 4000 years of Muslims fighting with each other. The point I make is that there are those who would like nothing more than to divide Christians and start them fighting with each other. Divide and conquer sometimes works…but not with true Christians. I thank you for your service and hope you will find peace in your life. Try God, my friend. Remaining Godless will only bring you more sadness and pain. God bless you.
So when we bring your God back into school what do we do with everyone else? Your claiming under the name of freedom that we push your religion over all others. As the author of this article your either distinguished or not that bright. Bible and prayer banning in public schools is a straw man. It is simply un-true. Students are allowed to do whatever they feel and want to organize them selves. It is when the administration or system picks one religion say Christianity and gives special privilege to that faith it becomes un-constitutional. I am all for religious education with equal treatment given to the many religions of the world, but many christian fundies would not like that. As my good friend a Catholic monk once said, “It is impossible to come away from true bible study beveling in a literal interperation.”
If you’re going to quote the First Amendment, you need to get it right. Mr. Tracy conveniently omitted the words “the establishment.” The amendment’s religious clause actually says “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,” not ““Congress shall make no law establishing religion.”
The difference between the two is that in the actual wording of the amendment, the government is prohibited from respecting a religion, whereas in the inaccurate wording, the government would merely be prohibited from establishing a religion.
That’s a big difference.
Tracy also gives the misleading impression that prayer is illegal in public schools, as is reading the Bible. Prayer is legal, as long as it is not initiated or organized by the school. Reading the Bible is legal, too, as long as it is read as a piece of literature and that lessons from it are not based on a religious perspective. Students are free to read the Bible in study hall, at lunch, etc.
Christianity, as with all religions, is often abused as a means to exert a superiority complex over those who believe in other religions or do not subscribe to a particular religious persuasion. Sadly, I have known people who professed deep Christian beliefs, but who turned out to be frauds, committing adultery, bearing false witness on others, promoting violence against others, and cheating — all the while arguing that the Bible gives them a pass for committing such atrocities against those around them because they “believe” in God and that Jesus died to atone for whatever sins they are free to commit.
Jesus himself would never condone such behavior in his name. There are several passages in the Bible in which God and Jesus say that people who continue to violate God’s laws will not get into heaven. Nevertheless, the hypocrites continue to hijack Jesus’s philosophy and proclaim that they are inherently superior to “non-believers.”
Actions speak louder than words. Very few self-proclaimed Christians actually believe in what they preach. They conveniently pick and choose which biblical passages apply to them and which apply to others.
We do not the Bible to tell us what is right and what is wrong. I say that anyone who needs the Bible to know that stealing, murder, adultery, and other crimes — be they legal or moral — are wrong has something wrong with himelf to begin with. In fact, even the Bible says that people can live moral lives instinctively.
As to the misquote, I have already acknowledged that the error was an unintentional error from the first draft writing, and that the intent was to show that the phrase “separation of church and state” is in fact NOT in the Constitution as so many falsely believe.
As for the legality of Bible reading, simply google “Bible banned in schools”, and find thousands of specific cases to the point.
Actions DO speak louder than words, but, “very few self-proclaimed Christians actually believe in what they preach…”? I readily grant that there are many who have failed, and have misused the Biblical concept of forgiveness as a blank check to sin, but such a sweeping indictment of Christians is severely misguided. There are millions of faithful believers who get up every day and do their best to live by the simple tenents of their faith. It’s only the failures that get the press.
It’s interesting that you denegrate the value of the Bible, and accuse others of “picking and choosing”, and then “prove” your point with what “the Bible says”.
If you are going to base a argument on the 1st admendment you should get it right. Also the Court has ruled the separation of church and state, meaning it is the interpretation of the constitution.
I realize that Islam was founded over 1500 years ago. I was being sarcastic about the 4000 years of Muslims fighting with each other. The point I make is that there are those who would like nothing more than to divide Christians and start them fighting with each other. Divide and conquer sometimes works…but not with true Christians. I thank you for your service and hope you will find peace in your life. Try God, my friend. Remaining Godless will only bring you more sadness and pain. God bless you.
Very well said Rev. Tracy!
mrsgop44 42 minutes ago in reply to ryanrrobbins
I do not think Christians are deciding anything for you. We simply show you a way to God and salvation through Jesus Christ. God made sure we have free will which you are exercising in your own life. With my free will, I choose God. To me, it is water for a thirsty, dying desert traveler. No one will try to coerce you…it is a loving gesture offered to you. It is up to you to accept or reject…as simple as that.