DEXTER, Maine — Just before walking into Saturday’s sometimes heated public forum about the proposed east-west highway, Ripley resident Gordon Canning stopped to find his property on a Maine map that had a rough estimate of the corridor drawn in a thick red line.
“I’m here to get information — to find out what’s coming,” he said. “I went to the meeting in Dover-Foxcroft with Peter Vigue and I didn’t feel like they answered [the questions] adequately.”
The path of the proposed corridor, for instance, is “one of the things we don’t know for sure,” Canning said.
Unanswered questions about secret agendas and big money seemed to be the biggest concern at the public gathering, which included shouts of anger and also vocal support for leaving the region alone or ideas in opposition of the project.
The crowd of 200 or so — most opposed to the road construction project — gathered at the Ridgeview Community School for the forum, dubbed the “civil discourse party” by Sam Brown of the Dexter Dover Area Towns in Transition, a group that sponsored the event.
The 220-mile privately funded toll highway favored by Vigue, chairman and CEO of Cianbro Corp., gained state funding for a $300,000 feasibility study in early April that is expected to be finished in January.
The $2 billion roadway would start in Calais, follow Stud Mill Road to Costigan, just north of Old Town, cross the Penobscot River, then head northwest to LaGrange, Milo, south of Dover-Foxcroft, Monson and The Forks before connecting to Route 27 and crossing the Canadian border into Quebec.
The initial plan has six interchanges in Maine and from the border, it is only about 60 miles to Trans Canada Highway Route 10 near Sherbrooke — with connections to Buffalo, Detroit and other Midwest destinations — and to Trans Canada Highway Route 73 to Beauceville, located south of Quebec City.
The planned highway through rural Maine is “an abomination,” said Sidney Mitchell, Dover-Foxcroft resident and central region coordinator for the Stop the East-West Corridor coalition. “We live here because of the beauty.”
Residents at the forum also wanted to know if the proposed highway would include other utilities, such as an oil pipeline running underneath; who the deep-pocket investors behind the plan are; why there are not more alternative models on the table; and what are the biggest drawbacks and benefits of moving forward with a privately funded roadway.
“This east-west highway is a big deal,” said Dave Pearson, a Democrat who is running for state Representative for District 24, and was one of eight candidates who attended the forum. “If it’s built, it’s going to profoundly change the lives in eastern Maine. There is no turning back.”
Sue Mackay-Andrews, a Piscataquis County Commissioners candidate, said she hasn’t made up her mind about the project but asked the crowd about other options.
She asked, “If not this, then what” can be done to improve the region’s economy?
“Is there an opportunity to bring jobs to Maine?” and “What are the environmental issues?” are two questions Kenneth Fredette, R-Newport, the lone Republican on the forum panel to show up, said he hopes the feasibility study answers. “I want to see what the studies say. I want answers” before any decisions are made.
Hilary Lister, of the Stop the East-West Corridor coalition, said she has watched as industries such as Dexter Shoe have left the area, taking people along with them, but added those who left are slowly coming back to Maine.
“More and more people I know are moving back into the state and they’re moving back because its not developed,” she said, adding later that, “I don’t see what’s in it for the local people.”
Democrat Herbert Clark, who is running for the District 27 Senate seat, said in his 24 years as a state lawmaker, he has never seen a “bill go through so fast,” referring to the feasibility study bill, and said, if elected, he’ll work to repeal it.
While most of the 21 people who stood up and spoke at the meeting opposed any type of highway, two said people should work toward guiding the plan to suit the needs of the individual communities.
“Development is coming. How we guide it is up to us,” said Dover-Foxcroft resident David Twitchell.
Vigue has said that since the project is privately funded, eminent domain is not allowed and will not be used to acquire land for the project, which means the exact route is in flux until the land is under contract.
Vigue should give up the dog and pony show until he can produce a detailed map of the proposed route. If this road is such a great idea, it will speak for itself. Why all of the secrecy?
I agree with you 100 percent on this. Show us the goods. It’s hard to form an opinion with all the secrecy. I hate to say I’m against the idea, but I’m leaning that way. This is starting to stink.
Starting to? The taxpayers of Maine just spent $300K on a study of this private road. I’d like to see Cianbro reimburse us for the cost of that study.
According to MDOT Constituent Liaison Nina Fisher, as of a few weeks ago, they were still defining scope and it hadn’t been awarded. The scope itself will answer a few questions as to where MDOT really is on this project.
There is no detailed map because the exact route is not yet fully known, due to the number of left-wing loons who will likely try to stand in the way of it getting completed. If you own land near the planned route and don’t want to sell, then don’t sell. I don’t understand how so many Mainers are against this road? This road should have been built 20 years ago. Having it built privately should be a no-brainer, but we have too many lefties in this state that want to keep us in the dark ages.
What bothers me about building it privately is what happens if the investers want out down the road, decide to sell, and a country like China buys it. If its such a deal then the state should own it. There is not a lot of development north of bangor along I-95. Where is all this development going to come from?
here is a wonderful study on the hazards and pitfalls of highway privatization
http://cdn.publicinterestnetwork.org/assets/H5Ql0NcoPVeVJwymwlURRw/Private-Roads-Public-Costs.pdf .
There is no question in my mind that the plan is to do this project under the ill gotten Highway Privatization Statute, Title 23 Section 4251 written by Cianbro and other member s of the asphalt lobby and passed in 2010 with no public notice and no public comment.
That would create both all the rights and benefits of a public roadway to this privately owned highway including the use of its right of way for a utility corridor, including tar sands pipeline, with no permitting and no public scrutiny.
It would also create a vehicle for public guarantees on all that $2billion in private financing and that would leave the public holding the bag in the event of default.
Also take a look at the peculiar changes to the Maine Turnpike Authority Statute in 2011 which looks to me to be a clear set up to use the Turnpike Authority under these new provisions. Some of you may recall Paul Le Page bragged in 2011 that the E/W Highway could be funded via the Turnpike Authority.
Wrap your head around this!
What if this feasibility study where also a projected evaluation study for the value of the land that this supposed highway where to be built on. After all we now have a takings law that allows a for an entity to sue the State if a law that is passed devalues that property by more than 50 %. If the feasibility study passes muster Cianbro pays for it,builds a Rd. and makes a profit, If not he has a land evaluation for free!
What better way to start a case than to establish the value of the Stud Mill Rd, and others with a free study done by the DOT itself?
What better way to establish that lands value for eminent Domain in the future if the State where to decide to Take it?
The State would be hard pressed saying that it is only worth $500.00 an acre when there is a study out there that says that it’s value as a private Rd, based on the anticipated traffic flow and going toll rates made it worth $2000,000 and acre to a private developer.
The Taxpayer gets stiffed again !
Hi dlbrt..
Thank goodness the Regulatrory takings bill was defeated in the end and is not law ( http://www.nrcm.org/news_detail.asp?news=4824) but you are right , the interests that motivated the law are not about the little guy but exactly as you say about the interests of speculative exploitative landholders. You can bet they t will keep bringing it back but for now it is not law in Maine.
The core of your concern was mine as well about the feasibility study..the privataization stautue requires any applicant under the statute to submit such a study as part of the application. My concern was that we the people through this study were paying for what a private developer is required to provide.
I put that to MDOT and they answered that there is not now and has not been an applicant under the statute and that the feasibility study is for the benefit of MDOT’s own decision making..implying that the type of information to be developed is not duplicative of what a developer would be required to submit. We will be able to judge that for ourselves when the scope is finally defined and the RFP issued. ( Has it been issued? Last time I asked it had not)
In the study ordered by the 118th legislature in 1999 the consultant doing the economic feasibility/ecomomic impact part of the study did come up with an estimated acquisition cost for land using a 500′ ROW and and average value from Coburn Gore go Calais. They didn’t though actually appraise each property along the way and I am pretty sure that won’t be done in the feasibility study.
Also important to note it is not a level playing field as between the huge speculative landholder/easeement owners who control the land under about 80% of the route and who stand to gain about $1 billion by long term lease of the land for the highway and it’s utility corridor. It is the little guy on that inconvenient middle from Costigan to northwest of Bangor for whom eminent domain. Under eminent domain you do not get appraised value by market ( what your appraiser would , you get value by tax assessment. So the big corportocracy interests would make out like bandits into perpetuity via lease of their land (or as actual investment partners)while little ordinary folk would get less than fair market value for their land.
The valuation also is two way. Vigue has frequently referred to running directly on the right of way of existing public roads..he has often
in print and otherwise using the actual row of existing public roads..and it is not as of right that anyone can build a bridge even if they own land on both sides. All of those public rights of way have value and as well and belong to the people.
In recent months Vigue has not made those references so perhaps there are ongoing behind the scenes discussions with MDOT even though they deny there is any applicant at the moment. Perhaps teh feasibility study will assign a public value to all the public rights of way involved.
If, as Vigue states, emininent domain would not be used in this project, the ordinary folk who own land that is useful to the project stand to gain a great deal of value for their holdings. Are you willing to deny that value to those Mainers based on your unfounded dismissal of Peter Vigue’s integrity?
Dlbrt..forgot to mention another important concern your comment triggered for me. As a private entity, not at all involving or going trough the State’s Highway Privatization Statute or through the Turnpike authority , through which it would gain certain benefits and privileges, in the unorganized territories LURC roadway rules are the only standard that would apply. As you can see those standards didn’t anticipate anything much more than what the Stud Mill Rd. already is. So we have a very weak statutory and regulatory framework.
You are right that regulatory takings was about just such a situation. The stud mill easement is owned by Echo, a subsidiary of original owner International Paper. They have already determined a value for use of the rd for the E/W highway..$353 million. If we had passed the takings bill and a subsequent change were made in the highway construction rues at LURC there could very well have been a sizable regulatory takings claim based on the negotiations and documentation establishing the $353 million value cited by Echo in the court documents.
Lindsay, you just made the case for the inevitable Transportation Bond that’s coming. And yes, short of a specific prohibition on anything other than the roadway being built, this corridor is going to be used as a ROW for anything that Cianbro, or anyone it provides right to, wants to build without any further oversight or regulation. This ROW is the biggest give-away since the railroad’s in the West in the 1870’s.
By the way, the assistance given to the railroads in the West in the 1870s resulted in America’s transcontinental rail system which was an immense economic tool and stimulus during the heyday of rail, and which helped to bring the United States to the supreme position in the world’s economy.
Sooner or later eminent domain, no matter how many folk’s deny it, is gonna come into play with this. If this scenario plays out like you are proposing, then Maine, at some point, is gonna be on the hook for the entire cost of the E-W Highway. And with money so tight, as pointed out repeatedly, and very vocally by Paulie, the BIG question again comes back to haunt everyone, that being where’s the money gonna come from to pay for the Highway and make eminent domain legally work ? Gee, why do I see a TRANSPORTATION BOND issue coming ? Or am I the only one looking thru the smoke that’s being blown up my short’s ? Someone needs to start asking ‘That Question’ to Paulie and The Penguin now, before this ‘moosehump’ moves anymore forward and starts dragging Maine down that road that Paulie so loudly proclaims he is going to keep us from going down.
As far as Maine itself goes, if Maine’s DOT and Public Safety folk’s were smart they would start, now, planning for the inevitable, that being their having to assume the responsibility, and work requirement’s, for covering this on a ‘No Notice’ basis. Given how this is proceeding, one can see the inevitablity of Cianbro, literally, abandoning the Highway and just walking away. At that point Maine is going to have no choice but to take control of the Highway, if for no other reason than public safety, AND, to protect the investment that Maine is now stuck with, wanted or not. When this happens, and it’s a very likely option given the public’s reaction so far ( and this one’s a toss up) Cianbro’s suppossed ‘Investor’s’ are gonna have to step up, come outta the closet and identify themselves as either partners, and either assume control of the Highway, and responsible for the mess that’s been left behind, or file the Corporate equivalent of a ‘Quit Claim’ motion to remove themselves of the responsibility, and the Highway’s ‘title’, that the Highway has now generated. The toll issue is a no-brainer since Maine is gonna be looking to recover it’s investment (Gee, does the term TRANSPORTATION BOND sound familiar ?) as soon as possible, more so if any PUBLIC MONEY is invested in this road. And should Cianbro try, and that’s a BIG ‘IF”, to build some kind of Northern Extension to the Bald Mountain mining effort, well, whoever is mining Bald Mountain is gonna be ‘on the hook’ for that part of the Highway. That or Maine’s get’s that also. Now what have we got ?
And now that the issue of the route is now out for all to see, this whole process is now no longer funny. 1st said as not known, by this article, the route is now out there for all to see. Again, why all the secrecy if the route is now public ? There is more than a little ‘moosepoop’ here that has yet to be seen. And Vigue is the one with the shovel, no matter how hard he tries to keep it from being seen. And more and more, Mainer’s are asking just what he’s going to do with it. Pretty soon those question’s either get answered or, come November, those Official’s and Candidate’s, that are depending on Vigue for support, that have so loudly called for it’s being built, are gonna have to face the voter’s who answer their silence with a serious ‘NO’ vote. Add that to the Investor’s Prospectus that’s going to be floated for investment purpose’s and the political aspect of this is clearly written on the wall. Cianbro is not the one who’s running Maine, despite all of the hoop-la they’ve put out there. And that’s becoming more clear every day.
“Given how this is proceeding, one can see the inevitablity of Cianbro, literally, abandoning the Highway and just walking away.”
By what incredible analysis have you arrived at this conclusion?
Conservatives love expounding about how their rights are being taken away from them however the most fundemental right of freedom to get about this country Is under attack by the moneyed interest’s. Public Roads are a collective means of ensuring that right and the Basic Foundation of the economy. With the pressure from the right to eliminate taxes and government comes the threat of another more sinister, powerful all controlling entity looking to rob you of your basic rights, Corporatism.
One day we may wake up to find that the United Corporations of the World are charging you a toll just to get to their factory to produce the products that they sell to you for your very existence.
well said dlbrt..well said
I bet there are some right wing landowners that are against it too.
It has little or nothing to do with whether you are branded a “Leftie.”
It all boils down to someone telling people they’re going to cut across your front lawn separating you from the lawnmower and the shed – like it or not.
And that all means being honest with the people who will be affected, if the project is approved.
Why? at the awful risk of being branded a “Leftie,” is this miraculous cure for the Maine economy so secret?
Why a private road? Who will maintain it? How many entrance and exit points are there? Who will enforce traffic rules? Are there any? Or, will it have open speed – 93 mph?
Will the owners be liable for taxes to the State of Maine? Why would trucks from Saint John, N.B., bound for Boston want to swing North West at St. Stephen, N.B. to go further away from their target market? Canadian businesses north of the Maine border are concerned that the highway will divert business from their region.
People have been up and down on this usse for the past hundred years – or, so it seems. In the end they realized it didn’t take a no – brainer to realize that it was a waste. Not only inessential, ineffective, but also – destroying miles of pristine Maine countryside, as well as the homes of many Mainers.
Obviously, the proponents – Mr. Vigue and Mr. Le Page see something that hundreds are unable to appreciate. Obviously, it isn’t the destruction of parts of Central and Western Maine? Neither is it the taking of property and land of farmers, landowners and ordinary families who live where they do, to escape the industrial hammer.
The Canadians have a rail line bisecting Maine upon which the Canadians transport oil and other major commodities across our state. No passengers are allowed to board at Brownville Junction. That popular allowance ceased years ago.
The bulk of New Bunswick and Nova Scotia heavy transport rigs roll up and down Route 9 daily. An attempt to re-route some of the traffic around Brewer so far as failed, with many landowners upset at the proposition which would ruin their private property.
If there is a solution to the proposition of an East-West Highway, it needs to be much more cleanly defined – openly and honestly. So far, there have been far too many “maybe’s” and “perhaps.” The proponents don’t even dare show an approximate route, because they know, despite their claims of not taking land by eminent domain, how else are they to build such a corridor – by sky hooks?
Despite what Vigue says, eminent domain can, and will take lands (via state intercession) because it is “good for the economy,” or so they say.
This has been upheld in the US Supreme Court (Kelo v. New London) where that Connecticut city wanted her shorefront house to build a new research park for a pharma giant, because it would bring in more tax dollars than 1920’s bungalows.
Mrs. Kelo lost, was evicted. Project never built. Beware Maine!
yup yup and more yup. No one wants to talk about Kelo, but that IS the precedent.
I am so NOT a “left wing-loon” and I am vehemently opposed to this project. I beg to differ with Mr. Vigue on his point about eminent domain. Property has been taken under eminent domain for privately funded projects both here in Maine and across the nation. The circumstances under which it may be used were intiially extremely limited but, just like everything else, they have insidiously expanded to include private projects. I do live near the planned route and I will not sell, not because I want to keep this state “in the dark ages”, but because I moved to the rural area to get away from the noise, traffic, and influx of problems from the city. Given the fact that the Penobscot Nation owns quite a lot of land in this area, I am hopeful that they’ll prevent this thing from being built here.
Here is your answer were Gonna build it whether you like it or not get it ?
Only if they can secure the rights to the land, through private means. I’m not sure why so many people in this state are opposed to free enterprise? Too many years of government building dependence upon itself has ruined the work ethic of some Mainers, as evidenced by this issue and others like it. It’s truly a shame how pathetic we’ve become as a state!
This road will not be built. It will not improve the economy in the dover area, Why would it… It is a corridor for passage from one part of Canada to another.
When It is complete there is nothing stopping the sale of the highway.. I see not reason for Peter to keep the road once his job is done building it. Why hang on to that type of Debt when the Canadian Government can buy it.
People this project is only about personal enrichment nothing else… Someone needs to start a a citizen ballot for no private highways in Maine.
Watch it get built nothing to stop it will be maintain by tolls
It’s nice to see that the anti-business, pro-socialist forces are still alive and well in this state! Perhaps you will be successful in driving even more pro-Maine businesses out of this state, but I certainly hope not? There was a time when most Mainers had enough common sense to support initiatives like this that made sense, but due to the Democrat’s long reign over this State’s government, many of our residents have become soft and dependent upon government for their livelihood. Our ancestors would be disappointed to see how weak we have become!
no pure logic.. why in order to pass this project did Peter have a clause that the State of Maine will have no jurisdiction over it? or anything about it.
Why should the State have jurisdiction over it if they are not paying to have the road built? The investor’s interests need to be protected, if they are willing to risk their capital.
No state police jurisdiction at all?
2 billion in value should be taxed at least 45 million a year
It’s nice to see that someone else can feel ‘the smoke’ being blown up their short’s !
What clause are you refrring to? There is nothing in the privatization statute that Cianbro write for itself that says that. But you are right that under that staute it could be “privately owned” as Vigue describes it and still derive huge public benefit via the statute.
Highways should be born of public needs identified by the public and quantified and qualified by our elected officials.
Not identified and qualified with a law put in place for, of, and by a private firms desires!
Mainers have fought this project for years. Didn’t matter whether they were “Liberal Goons,” “Lefties,” or, whatever else, you, and others choose to call the opposition made up strictly of Maine people who decidedly oppose to this project.
Once again, the poor, those barely alive, and other struggling to stay afloat in a recession, are blamed. We’re far from weak, despite your lordship’s assessment of his peasants. We have just about one million three hundred thousand people living here. All work hard. Those unable too, we seek to help.
Mainers always work hard to earn a living. Maine also boasts some of the world’s most famous writing, artists, theatrical, film, and crafts people. Our lobsters, seafood, world class boats and yachts are renowned the world over. Mainers have helped enrich the lives of millions of people worldwide through their stellar crafts and artistic talents. Over the years, many return to their home state. Others choose to settle here simply to relax amid its luxurious wild forests, its lakes, and along its a 3,000-mile shoreline. There is no comparison.
The scorn and belittlement heaped on those who tend to disagree with anything, is shrugged off. Call us what you want. We’ll beat this wretched thing at the ballot box.
We do not need a New Jersey Turnpike cutting through our belly.
You might be wrong about this, Briney. You might find that thousands of Mainers are tired of having to bow to environmental extremists while trying to survive without a job.
more name calling, Brandon? The folk in Dexter who organized this event were celebrating the way of life in their community..working to protect their community and their livelihoods ..your use of labels is not a very effective way of advancing your commitment to the highway .
The veil has been pierced, Brandon on this Tree huggers vs jobs tired old rhetoric. It is plain to anyone that the folks in Dexter who finally had a chance to say what is on their minds about the East West Highway are not environmental extremists or eco terroriist or any of the other labels Vigue is promoting to minimize their very valid and ordinary concerns.
The only real tragedy so far is that we have Christie’s brother here. The photo’s don’t lie ! And the tactics and ‘smell’ are identical.
With all the closed mills and factories that private business left behind in Maine, I’m guessing businesses didn’t care much for our ancestory.. and cared more for cheat labor. our ancestors would be disappointed
In an article anticipating the July 14th Dexter Rally Crash Barry offered a compelling and persuasive description of Cianbro’s role in all this..he called them the construction arm of thee global profiteers aggressively seeking to exploit Maine’s north with no return to Maine in the form of jobs or anything else.
I think he has his finger right on the pulse of what this is all about for Cianbro. It is a lifetime of in state construction related to the utility corridor as he hands Cianbro over to his son.
http://defendingwater.net/maine/2012/07/the-crash-report-a-hellacious-highway/
Lindsay, I compliment you for your homework, and while I don’t reach the same conclusions as you do, your posts are thoughtful, logical, and respectful.
On one point, at least, you’re off the mark.
Cianbro is an ESOP.
That is, it’s not owned by the Chianchette family any longer. It is owned by, and controlled by, their employees.
As Boar Chair, Peter Vigue could NOT simply have his son have CIANBRO “handed over” to him as most privatly-owned, small, companies might be able to do.
The young Vigue’s ascention to CIANBRO leadership, by both corporate policy and statute, simply must be approved by their Board of Directors AND by extension, the majority of their employees/stockholders.
I believe if you wait at time with patience, much more of the details will be forthcoming. It makes perfect sense to me that CIANBRO will only dribble out details as other aspects of their plan are worked out, most especially, with affected landowners.
At this point in time, I trust CIANBRO more than many of the Eco Terrorists running around our State these days.
In the meantime, keep digging, as that’s a good thing to have a cynical, yet thoughtful, populace keeping track of both Big Business AND Big Government.
wtsawyer,
Thanks for your kind words and also your civility. We all further a discernment when we ask meaningful questions and provide what facts we have.
Actually I know Cianbro well and long,back to my youth as a planner for the NYC Planning Commission. I especially admired Kenneth who was truly a genius. (I brought him a project for manufacture of play ground equipment for the NYC Housing Authority many years ago as a young planner and really enjoyed the little time I spent with him).
I am well aware of Cianbro’s ESOP status and write often about it. I am all for ESOPS and for re envisioning labor-management relationships in a way that gives workers a real stake in growth and profits. Of course, as you know, that means non union and non fair wage workers for the bulk of labor on any job..those ESOP beneficiaries are a core team of workers..doesn’t apply to everyone.
That makes Cianbro an ideal contractor for the large multi- national companies who would be the key players in the utility corridor and with whom, as Barry points out, Cianbro is already engaged..
Maine’s highway privatization statute does not require fair wages or in any way encourage or require local employees or local small businesses to be as fully engaged as possible. You may also be aware that Cianbro has some history on skirting Davis Bacon.
http://www.portlandphoenix.com/features/top/documents/02723930.asp
My background of 35+ years is in policy analysis/development legislative analysis/development including a 10 years on the New York State Banking t Board ( 1986-1997) So my voice is always about good government complete transparency and insuring public benefit..definitely not anti job or anti development but responsible development with a fair public benefit.
For this project I have read and re read every study ever done as well as extensively researching and analyzing this country’s and the global experience with highway privatization.
What I see in this is a classic Robert Moses, power broker approach. The legislative authority already exists ..that was Robert Moses strategy..passing legislation to facilitate a project without mentioning the project. what has been done here.
I can tell you from 30+ years right in the middle of power politics..wait and see is not good advice for any voice concerned with public benefit, truth and justice on this project.
Read this “secret study” done by Cianbro and Louis Berger and tell me if you see any focus at all here on public benefits to Maine, rebuilding the north country, promoting growth and economic development in our mill communities eviscerated by closings.
http://portland.thephoenix.com/news/137988-whats-driving-the-east-west-highway/
res ipse loquitor
Sorry to disappoint, but my family has lived in Bangor for four generations, having moved into town from Milo and Enfield.
After having been a successful Entrepreur for thirty years, building up a family-owned business from three to 250 employees, then selling out (actually pushed out by jealous Democrats like our two Johns… Martin and Baldacci; just like Roxanne Quimby) and serving elected office in local school committee, city council, Mayor and two terms as a Maine State Senator (and the ranking member of Maine’s Natural Resources Committee and “father” of Maine’s highly-respected E-Waste legislation), my life’s experiences has led me to better trust “honest competition among competitors” than the “unintended consequences of Governmental control”.
Ain’t perfect… simply better.
Please keep those well-researched posts coming… you just might pursuad me otherwise.
wtsawyer, honest competition among competitors…your business experiences seem to have more validity in this debate than what we hear from the so-called experts who have a dozen criticisms and not an ounce of experience.
WT..just for the record..my family has been in Maine since the 1700’s..my grandfather (Thad W. Bowker) was superintendent of the mill in Lincoln..
As to free market competition producing the best results ..Alan Greenspan, for the record, admitted to Congress that the free market policy he urged as national policy was wrong..that markets do not “self adjust”, “self regulate”..we are still struggling to recover from that calamitous mistake.
Nothing gets built here in America or anywhere else in the world without public facilitaion..how much has the free market already milked us for over the failure pf the Millinocket Mills and so far have any of those lost mill jobs been replaced?” The package Cate Street is getting for their “private investment” is $32 million in tax credits or something.. it worked out to $150,000 per job .
Read the Louis Berger report.. Vigue’s “Confidential feasibility study” fro the highway/ It’s a laundry list of facilittaions and assistance that will be needed from government to make the highway work.
http://issuu.com/thebostonphoenix/docs/2008—cianbro—east-west-highway-conceptual-feas/1
So, the question in the “art of the deal” to me is always the protection and balance of the public interest. When we grant a zoning bonus or a tax credit or guarantee a bond or allow eminent domain in the name of public good..what are we actually getting for public benefit.?
Past expert studies on this particular rd , also funded with public money, have concluded that there is little or no public benefit and possible harm from the highway.
It is no longer true .WT, if it ever was that private investmtent automatically generates public benefit. The story of the Millinocket mills is a case study in that. Lots of private folk have made lots of money there since the mills closed..all facilitated by the state and yet Millinocket itself and its people have lost out.
“Of course, as you know, that means non union and non fair wage workers for the bulk of labor on any job…”
So, Lindsay, you’ve got to earn union wages to have a “fair” wage, you say? I’d like to compare the wage of an average Cianbro worker with the wages of all the union people who are sitting at home collecting unemployment because they priced themselves out of the market. I’d like to compare the average Cianbro wage with the wage you were earning as a New York bureaucrat. From all indications, Cianbro employees are some of the best paid people in the state.
A quick look at the web shows that New York had budget deficits in the billions of dollars in the early 1990s, and rising unemployment. I’m not sure how your alleged policy analysis/development expertise affected the employment situation in New York during your tenure, but I know this: Vigue has employed thousands in his career. How many have you employed? Interesting how you still have not answered how you would bring jobs to Maine to employ the one out of ten Mainers who are unemployed in each of the counties through which the highway would travel.
Highest paid, and shortest employed, is the point. Cianbro has a very nasty habit of chopping people whenever they get in a bind. The recent module project proved that beyond any doubt or question. This roadway is going to be the same. Short term employment and then nothing but huge long-term profit’s for Cianbro if the road is ever finished. Add to that the documented fact that Cianbro has a nasty tendency to bring in ‘outside’ labor, under the guise of writing work statement’s, and the attending job descriptions, so tightly and precisely, that only ‘outside’ labor can qualify under the INS guidelines, provides them the means of actually paying substandard wages, under US wage scales, to these same ‘outside worker’s’. So much for Cianbro’s job’s being considered stable employment. B-O-H-I-C-A and don’t say you weren’t warned.
I’ll bet Cianbro’s people would much rather have their paycheck than yours.
Personal attacks and insults violate the terms of this blog..being rude and abusive pass for conversation in some circles, but it doesn’t pass for conversation here and never contributes positively to understanding..
Rude again Brandon..not at all in the spirit of deliberation or truth seeking. Facts and actual information always win out over smear tactics and insults except among those who know no other strategy.
“I think he has his finger right on the pulse of what this is all about for Cianbro. It is a lifetime of in state construction related to the utility corridor as he hands Cianbro over to his son.”
Lindsay, you claim expertise where you couldn’t possibly have any, such as the plans that might or might not exist between the older and younger Vigues. What if I were to say that you are out on these blogs in order to make yourself feel important? I really have very little factual basis for that claim, but it bears as much credibility as the things you allege about others on these threads.
Too far north. Also, just use existing roads, and 60 miles of I-95. Build it the way Interstates were done, sections at a time.
Follow 27, 16, 201A, and 139 to I-95 at Fairfield.
Then stay on I-95 to Kelly Road. Build a new bridge over the Penobscot there to go north of 9 and then just use 9 all the way to Calais.
I do not think they should touch any part of the Studmill between Calais and Milford, it makes no sense at all. Existing roads should be improved and utilized i.e. Rt. 9 or Rt. 6. I agree a road corridor is an improvement but not with so much impact on our last section of unspoiled land in Central Maine.
“last section of unspoiled land in Central Maine” ?? LOL….Yea there’s so much developement going on…LOL…
Deleted
So your telling me that there is another place in Central Maine with the vast wilderness available for recreation as along the Studmill Rd.????? Camping, Hiking, Fishing, Snowmobiling, Hunting etc… I am just saying why spoil what is there rather than use something that is already available like Rt. 6 or Rt. 9. And if things get developed there are plenty of towns along those routes that are better suited for development than a vast stretch of timberland that is a working forest… But mostly you are just trolling for some reactions as most people on this site. Truly dont know why I even bother posting..
sounds like a done deal..Echo Enterprises LLC who control the 2000′ easement on which the Stud Mill sits already have given a figure, $353 million, in public documents as their cut on the highway. In fact the frequent references to a 2000′ corridor by Vigue come from the Stud Mill.
” David C. Hooper, ECHO’s Vice President as well as an employee
of International Paper, indicated in his affidavit that the
Easement Corridor may be the site for a portion of a future east-
west toll road in Maine, and he estimated that the economic impact
for ECHO from this toll road could be over $353 million”
http://courtlistener.com/ca1/Ks3/maritimes-northeast-pipeline-v-echo-easement/
I drove the entire Stud Mill not long ago. I wanted to get a first hand feel. Impossible to imagine a 4 lane super highway there and impossible to imagine what would become of Sunkhaze and all the other conservation properties along there or the Machias River crossing.
As I drove it myself, end to end , I kept wondering if Vigue himself had ever driven it. Impossible to reconcile his vision and claims with the reality of the Stud Mill.
As someone mentioned in another thread here: “I, along with several other people on a daily basis who travel from northern Maine to LL Bean cross over rivers and streams or within the viewshed of several conservation areas, if not directly through them and I haven’t read any stories lately that they are being destroyed.”
I am guessing Vigue is far more familiar with it than yourself and I have no trouble reconciling his vision with the reality of the Stud Mill road
Have you actually driven the stud mill rd end to end , Crackers?
EXACTLY…
Bingo!
The same enviros that would donate land to the federal government are at work here to further their agenda of depopulating rural Maine in order to create their great wilderness park.
B I N G O
Wildways Project is part of the reason, look it up.
http://www.twp.org/wildways/eastern-wildway
There are many other websites that outline the plans.
Did anyone catch the “privately funded” wording while in the next breath BDN reported ”
The 220-mile privately funded toll highway favored by Vigue, chairman and CEO of Cianbro Corp., gained state funding for a $300,000 feasibility study in early April that is expected to be finished in January.” That was “state funding”…in a time when funding is so scarce we are struggling to justify cuts, “state funding” is being expended for a feasibility study. Why wasn’t this placed to a vote in advance of the “state funding” being approved and disbursed? Those funds could have put new roofs and provided repairs to homes in the path of the EW Highway. With all the clamor, home sales are threatened and homeowners are facing continuing unknowns as to the future of their home town.
They have plenty of funds for things they want. Go downtown in Bangor and look at Exchange St. area or go out to Maine Ave at Griffin Rd. if you doubt this and look with your own eyes.
As a former Mainer now living in New Brunswick I have been following this east-west highway stuff in the news for a while. The Canadian government has invested a huge amount of money twinning the main highway from Halifax NS to the Maine border. Right now, the last few miles are being finished and by fall vehicle traffic will have a four lane highway from Halifax to St. Stephen NB. However, once you pass through St. Stephen you get to drive on the completely inadequate Route 9 from Calais to Bangor. This Canadian project has been going on for twenty years at least so it should come as no surprise to anyone that the emphasis now shifts to the U.S. side.
“Completely inadequate” Route 9? For whom? Truckers? Canadians? Get over yourself.
Just used Rte 9 over the weekend. It is like a superhighway out there, easy to pass and people driving 80 mph, zinging past.
Sorry, but the Xenophobes running around Maine these days really don’t want anything to do with Canadians, or your spending, on this side of the Border.
Remember that that the well-heeled in MDI tried to block Mr. Rockefeller and Mr. Dorr from “spoiling” the island with those fancy Carriage Roads either. “If you cant walk to the preferred view, you shouldn’t be able to get there…”
Some things, and people, never change.
Sad, but so.
How predictable. Oh, and wtsawyer. It’s not xenophobia, it’s pro Maine which is where we live!
Thanks.
I find it important, as you obviously do, to remain “predictable” at every opportunity.
Hmmm, my family has lived in Bangor for four generations, having moved into the Big City from Milo and Enfield. How long you been around?
See Vigue’s “secret” study with Louis Berger ( posted above) on this..the trucks this E/W highway are all about are no presently permitted on any interstate in the Us. they are heavier and longer than what U.S, law allows. And it is beautifully rebuilt state, 9, is not designed to carry these loads and lengths. Maine cannot waive interstate highway law. So once one of these big trucks get on this road it has to stay on that road..can’t leave.
And what does that mean for private passenger cars? It means the much higher costs of constructing a road to Canadian standards will be shared by ordinary passenger vehicles paying tolls much much higher than are customary anywhere in this part of the U.S,
You have no way of knowing what the final toll might be set at for passenger vehicles. The big trucks could pay high tolls and still earn a savings compared to driving across the top of Maine, with all the extra mileage that the northern route entails for gas guzzling semis. Meanwhile, it makes sense that passenger vehicles would pay no more than what the market will bear.
Also, why do you think every last vehicle that would travel on such a highway would have to be the maximum sized vehicles? There are all varieties of trucks and trailers and cars and vans, etc, that could use the highway, which could leave the road and filter into Maine communities.
The issue with truck size was one of many “facilitations” sought byVigue for this “all private” endeavor and here listed in their own “confidential study”
http://issuu.com/thebostonphoenix/docs/2008—cianbro—east-west-highway-conceptual-feas/1
There is nothing in the report which would lead anyone to assume that the vehicles which use the highway would necessarily be the largest vehicles in existence.
Truth counts here Brandon, at least to the growing number of us who are using this forum in a positive and constructive way. If you actually did read the Louis Berger/Cianbro “Confidential Report” then you know there is quite a discussion in there on the truck non compatibility issue with interstate highway standards and you know that most of the trucks Vigue’s plan counts on are not presently allowed on U.S. roads.
If yo read further or took a bit of initiative to investigate or just think it through it would be apparent that the costs per mile of a roadway constructed to meet Canadian standards would be significantly higher than a roadway built to current U.S. Standards.
Your statement is intentionally misleading which is a discourteous to those of us here who are trying to be responsible and truthful about what we bring to the discussion.
I am not disputing that the cost of the roadway would be higher for the reasons you mention. What I am questioning is your claim that the cost would necessarily be passed on to passenger vehicles. It seems plausible to me that the additional expense could be made up by truckers who still see a savings despite the relatively high toll. One would think that the investors of the highway aren’t going to set the toll for passenger vehicles so high that motorists choose not to use the highway, thereby eliminating that source of return on investment.
Also, your claim that the only vehicles that would use the highway are the largest vehicles in North America is suspect, in my opinion. Big Canadian rigs would be a clear priority, no doubt. But to think they are the only vehicles that would use the highway is a mistake, I believe. Why wouldn’t a conventional sized rig use the highway? Why wouldn’t other types of vehicles use the highway if it suited their needs? Those vehicles would be legal in Maine, and there would be every expectation that such vehicles could and would leave the highway and filter into Maine’s communities, creating a revenue opportunity, contrary to your scenario.
If I’ve missed comments in the report that render these opinions of mine clearly mistaken, feel free to point them out.
”
Also, your claim that the only vehicles that would use the highway are
the largest vehicles in North America is suspect, in my opinion. ”
This is entirely you invention Brandon..I never said any such thing
again truth is a basic courtesy to others in this community.
“Maine cannot waive interstate highway law. So once one of these big trucks get on this road it has to stay on that road..can’t leave.”
I assume your point in making this statement is to advance the opinion that the highway will be useless as an economic stimulus in Maine in part because these trucks will stay on the highway and not enter the hinterland. If that was not your point, perhaps you can help me to understand the reason for your statement.
I don’t think Bowker has a point other than to be a well heeled out of state retiree advocating against the economic interests of the region directly impacted by this proposal. Of course I bring my own biases to the table being in favor of this type of project for the past 30 years. However, to the quote, this highway is planned to have exits and stops along the way. I would guess those stops would have facilities for the pass through traffic. Those trailers passing through would have little intention of diverting. Even if they did, it would be reasonable to state that most of the truck traffic would eventually be a mix of containers and trailers that if doubled up could easily be dropped for pickup along the way.
I doubt many of the opponents of this highway know anything at all about how logistics systems work and what the future of overland transport is expected to look like.
Just drove to Cape May, NJ and back last weekend. My toll bill was nearly $50 for the entire trip, quite unlike anything in the South, except for Alligator Ally in Florida.
Yet, no one FORCED me to pay those tolls in either instance.
congratulations on your wise choice and sucessful journey.
so it wouldn’t bother you if the highway was too expensive for local people to use or if the pattern of exits by passed struggling existing economic centers.
The configuration of this roadway (4 lane calais to Coburn Gre) has no had any support from experts who at public expense have studied it in the past. The finding has been marginal public benefit if any and an actual risk of harm to existing economic centers in Maine.
So. let’ assume that is true now as well..to you doesit make a difference if the financing is private..no direct public money? And looking at the long list of public support and help Vigue/Louis Berger outline in their “strictly Confidential” laundry list of what they expect from the State of Maine,isn’t there in your opinion some public benefit that should be derived to Mainers for Maine’s help in facilitating the project?
No… None other than the obvious.
Agreed. The Canadians have a modern, efficient highway to move goods all the way to Chicago, Detroit and south into the midwest interior. In my opinion, the long time natives of Maine will suffer the final head shot to their local economies if the special interests and eco-progs succeed in killing this.
The problem is there is not a bond issue attached to it. Mainer’s love that “free” money they get from bonds. They never seem to see one they don’t like. A private group spending private money to build a private road that will cost the State nothing and we are up in arms. How dare they do that, give us a bond!!! We want jobs, just no roads to bring them. Hunting, fishing, camping, etc. is great but we can’t live on it. I, my kids, my neighbors need jobs not vacation spots. I am sure there are other places that would love to have the road come through. Have it run through Bangor or have an off ramp at U Maine. Come on people, think.
Some things in life are priceless.
Law-N-Disorder
This so called “private money” will almost certainly involve a public guarantee to lower the interest rate and sweeten private investment prospects and lower interest rates.
This is not “free money”
It is and will be attached to a great deal of public largesse, public facilitation, expedited permitting , possible use of existing public roadways, siting of utilities, including a tar sands pipeline outside of the normal permitting and public scrutiny otherwise applicable.
In terms of the roadway itself, nothing has changed from all the previous studies paid for at public expense that concluded the road itself had little benefit for Maine and possible . Here is what Angus King had to say about it and MDOT of course was of the same opinion.
http://www.maine.gov/mdot/1999eastwesthwystudy/govspeech.htm
Those facts have not change..nothing has happened to change that conclusion.
What has chnaged is Vigue inspired by the Trans Texas Corridor which attempted to combine the highway with a uitlity corridor sees a possibility that may chnage financial feasibility for the project. All earlier studies had concluded it was not financially viable no mayter who paid for it. It just didn’t have the traffic volumes and income to retire development debt and provide for maintenance.
My big question is whether in setting the scope for the $300 k study the MDOT will do the right thing and revisit the former conclusions on benefit to Maine ( none and possible harm) or whether it will only address the financial side.
It is critically important that we not let MDOT get away with not revisiting and providing solid evidence for what has changed, if anything, to change the fact that all experts agree there is no Maine benefit here and possible harm.
“It is and will be attached to a great deal of public largesse, public facilitation, expedited permitting , possible use of existing public roadways, siting of utilities, including a tar sands pipeline outside of the normal permitting and public scrutiny otherwise applicable.”
Prove it.
The logging roads Vigue has most often mentioned are on lands owned or controlled by a few landoweners principally Kennebec West Forest LLC, Plum Creek and Echo Easement Corridor LLC who control the 2000′ corridor on which the Stud Mill Rd. Sits. In public documents Echo said it stood to gain $35 million if the Stud Mill Rd is used for the E/W Highway.
My guess is 80% or more of the route is on private land of large speculative landholders eager to upgrade value and earnings from their timber holdings and who, most likely have no intention of selling the land but leasing it into perpetuity. The unknown is the inconvenient middle where public roadways have to be crossed and ordinary holdings of our ordinary people have to be negotiated.
Under the privatization statute no matter what Vigue promises eminent domain could be used to deal with individual landowners and small communities trying to block the highway. Eminent domain abuses are a hallmark of highway privatization. The whole game is to get labor and acquisition costs as low as possible. Vigue’s assurances mean absolutely nothing.
Lindsay, you seem obsessed with the money that landowners might make on their Maine land. Are you going to be so worried about people making money on their land if the beneficiaries are everyday Mainers who are offered big sums for the right to build the highway through their property?
Also, who are you to judge Vigue’s integrity? What makes you such an expert judge of character? “Your assurances mean absolutely nothing,” back at you.
Vigue himself put his integrity at issue every time he duck’s and weave’s around simple questions by either refusing to answer them or giving answers that a MIT Engineering Professor can’t understand. Making money off the land is not the issue. It’s making the money long term that is what is being looked at. Vigue is looking at the road as a one-shot moneymaker. How many of you can live off a 1 shot deal with noting in reserve ? Vigue’s plan has no reserve, just instant greed and arrogance. And the minute that the road becomes more of a problem for Cianbro to deal with than make money off of, they are gonna walk away and leave us with the bill. BP in the Gulf showed us all that, along with Verizon and whatever Fairpoint is suppossed to be..
I suppose now you’re going to tell us you’re an MIT engineering professor. Maybe it’s you who are having trouble understanding Vigue’s answers, while others who are unemployed “get it.”
Once again, YOU are wrong! It is $300,000 of totally state money.
Had any private company contracted for and paid for the STUDY, none of you would have beleived it.
By having Government be the contracting agent, at least a few more will concur that it’s not simply done to make Cianbro look best.
I’ve been around long enough to appreciate that far too many of you will not “believe” it’s findings in any way, but this is how the system works.
{ Had any private company contracted for and paid for the STUDY, none of you would have beleived it. }
Like we are gonna believe a Private Study done with Public Money!
Thats the “first” sign of the corruption!
LOL
Then I suspect no study from any source that fails to meet your criteria will ever change your mind on any issue.
Certainly your perogative…
The sad thing here is the corridor will be built whether we like it or not.
Just look around the working people have no say in what does or does not come to be. Just take a ride around the rotary in the Town of Howland, right before the bridge Cianbro is building. Must of been a few federal dollars involved in that debacle.
Talk to the Maine DOT, they determine the design of what is being built up in Howland, not Cianbro
I’m as conservative as they come around here, but this project has the potential to effect many things about this state that will involve some adversity. The loons are going to have their way one way on another as it is anyway, not knowing where the highway goes west of I-95 is contentious to more than just the loons. We need to be careful what we wish for. This project is no different than Quimby’s in some respects, and will alter the way of life for a lot of people.
Well said and objectively stated. Maine needs a lot more of this, and soon !
///////
Let them build the road and the rest of the roads in that part of the state will be a lot better off.
Just look at RT 2 and the traffic on it .
The cracked up pavement and that alone should tell anyone that a new East West rd needs to be put in place for the truck traffic of today .
The East West RT that is in place today dates back to the days when the indains cut the trails alone the rivers in Maine.
Frankly what they need to do is to finish the I-95 Corridor by taking the 95 highway to where it was supposed to wind up, namely the Presque Isle area, and by logical extension, to Van Buren and Madawaska where the Trans-Can can hook in.
I want to know how much the tolls are going to cost. It the tolls are too high then this will not help anyone along the corridor. I have been looking at a map and fail to see how this will help Maine. If the tolls are to high then people will just take another route. The more I look and read about it, the ore it starts to look like a way to get through Maine quicker.
It doesn’t matter whether it was $60K or $300K, the state of Maine should not be funding a study for a private enterprise. Period.
Kudos to the grassroots coalition that is working to enlighten Mainers to this secret, private project. It doesn’t take much to “smell a rat” – the request to fund the $300,000 feasibility study for this private venture went through our legislature as “emergency legislation”. What’s the emergency? As a taxpayer, I think the $300,000 of DOT money could have been better spent improving the existing roadways that we all use. The questions and concerns are so numerous. It makes little sense to brand people as “lefties” and “liberals” and “conservatives” and whatever else – labels only create reasons to not listen to what others have to say, and make people blind to truth. Obviously this industry-driven, money-driven, damn the torpedoes, progress-build-grow lifestyle is NOT serving most people well. Nor is it serving our planet well either.
$300k would pay for the construction of one intersection, according to Maine DOT records on the cost of recent highway projects.
Sure, tease us by mentioning a map and then don’t show it to us. >.<
The minute that map comes out you can literally bet the farm that every piece of land that’s on the route proposed is going to jump in value, which is what the ‘sale price’ (and is going to have to be paid for under eminent domain re-imbursement funding) is actually based on. This map is going to be used as the basis for the inevitable Transportation Bond that’s going to have to issued for this mess. Vigue is doing nothing more than prepping the way for his shennanigan’s.
\\`@’////
My question is this-Who actually will make the final approval for this catastrophe? The people/voters of Maine or the politicians? If it’s the politicians you can be sure it will be approved and you can watch the money from Cianbro, or disguised from someone else, wind up somehow in the politicians pocket.
Once the Crooked, Feasibility study is approved by the Crooked DOT it goes to the Crooked politicians for a Crooked vote for the Crooked road!
Then they name it the East West Crooked Highway
LOL
They will name it ” Draft Dodgers Canadian Expressway”, in honor of the country that gave LePage political asylum during the Vietnam War.
How about the Great Britan … in honor of Wet Willie’s sticking out Vietnam over there?
This is a scandal. A private road to be built for the Canadian Trucking Industry. Stealing Maine’s Land. Mainers will lose their homes, farms and land. The Canadians want this road so bad they can build it in Canada. Cianbro can move to Canada to build it too. What few jobs Mainers will get for a few months of construction will be Nil. Most of the hires will be Canadians.
Every bit of your post is a lie.
Interesting that Democrat Herbert Clark, says he’ll work to repeal it. He was the CO-SPONSOR. I guess he finally found an audience stupid enough to believe anything:-)
Again, nobody is telling me who makes the final decision. Who?
Development is NOT coming to Piscataquis County the way things stand right now. The manufacturing base that once sustained the local economy is gone. Repeat that all the way to Washington County and the picture is one of abject poverty and no opportunity. This highway system directly connects Maine and the Maritime provinces to midwest markets. It offers the opportunity to bring natural gas to the area along with it’s low cost economic benefit for businesses that can prosper with it. The lack of transportation logistics along with very high energy costs are prosperity killers for the whole area.
Of course, the special interests and anti-business people who have moved into the area believe that part of Maine is reserved for their benefit however their retirement comfort and personal biases have brought economic ruin to the whole region.