AUGUSTA, Maine — While recent remarks by Gov. Paul LePage have ignited a debate over how much Maine spends to educate its public school students, varying numbers from national sources all show that the state’s per-pupil expenditures are well above average.
Last month, LePage said Maine students were falling too far behind their peers from other states, that Maine was paying too much for this lackluster performance. At the same time, he noted that Maine is 40th in the country in terms of teacher pay.
Since his July 25 press conference — which was meant to outline his administration’s new education reform initiative — education groups have been criticizing the governor’s data and anecdotes.
This week, the Maine School Management Association launched a new feature on its website called the “Real Story About Maine Schools.” In its first posting, the MSMA disputes comments LePage made during a July 25 press conference regarding per-pupil expenditures in Maine. LePage cited data from the National Education Association to say that Maine spent $15,032 per student in fiscal year 2011 on public pre-kindergarten through 12th grade education. That number makes Maine eighth-highest in the country and one-third higher than the national average of $10,770. The Bangor Daily News used those same figures in an analysis of Maine’s faltering reading scores, which was published in April.
The MSMA said the National Education Association’s numbers are derived from flawed estimates and cited U.S. Census data that lists a lower number. The Census Bureau’s Public Education Finances report says that Maine’s average per-pupil costs in 2009-10, the latest data available, were $12,259, which ranks the state 14th in the country and below all other New England states. According to the census data, the national average was $10,615 per student.
Maine Department of Education spokesman David Connerty-Marin said putting an exact price tag on per-pupil expenditures, especially when it comes to comparing states, is tricky because different states include different elements in their totals. For example, some don’t include retirement system costs, capital expenditures and in some cases, costs such as athletics and transportation.
The Maine Department of Education, in calculating the state’s per-pupil costs, doesn’t include capital outlay, debt service and transportation expenditures, and doesn’t compare Maine with other states. Per-pupil state General Fund expenditures plus local appropriations totaled $9,630, according to the department’s website.
Connerty-Marin said another organization that ranks states on per-pupil expenditures is the National Center for Education Statistics, which ranks Maine 12th in the nation with a figure close to the Census Bureau’s numbers.
“There are a lot of reports out there,” said Connerty-Marin. “Determining these numbers is really hard to do, which is why it’s great to have national organizations that equalizes that. The governor could have used any report, but used the NEA’s.”
“While there are some differences, they all point to the same thing, which is that Maine falls well above the national average,” he said of the various numbers. “The real discussion that we should be having is not which high number is correct, but why Maine is so far above the national average and what we can do about it.”
One place where Maine is well below the national average is teacher salaries. In July, LePage paired the NEA’s numbers with average salaries for Maine teachers, which he said ranked 40th in the country. He cited Maryland, Massachusetts and New Jersey, spend as much or more than Maine does per pupil but maintains much higher teacher salaries.
“Three of the states I just mentioned spend more money than the state of Maine but their teacher pay is in the top 10,” said LePage. “We’re 40th.”
Paul Hambleton is the deputy executive director of the Maine Education Association, whose parent organization is the NEA. He said the NEA’s data is flawed and that he’s working with the national organization to have them correct their figures. But he too said the task of comparing apples to apples on per-pupil expenditures is elusive and said even the Census data is flawed for that reason.
“They’re working off incorrect information and estimates,” said Hambleton. “I don’t know why, other than the NEA data is based on some estimates. Right now it looks like they were not getting updated information. They have not had an accurate update from the Maine Department of Education for five or six years. It appears that there has been a request. I don’t know if people weren’t responding.”
Connerty-Marin said Maine has not received any requests for per-pupil cost data from the National Education Association.
“We get lots of requests for data,” said Connerty-Marin. “We honor them as well as we’re able to, but it’s not always as fast as we’d like. There’s no reason to not provide that data to the NEA.”
Dale Douglass, executive director of the Maine School Management Association, said the organization launched the “Real Story About Maine Schools,” which can be found through the organization’s website at www.msmaweb.com, to make sure statements about Maine’s education system are accurate.
“The best way to advocate for public education is with the facts,” he said in a press release. “We need to understand where we are now and what it will take to get us to where we need to be for all of our students.”
Lepage would not know the truth if it slapped him in the face, everyone knows that.
How very rude. Who would you prefer to be the Maine Gov.???
Why is it you only show up when the topic surrounds Lepage? Rat Fink.
You have lost civility. Call me a “rat fink”. Pathetic, My intention is not to get you upset as you seem to be, but to find the heart of the truth with all the Nay Sayers who comment so rudely about our Governor. So please do not take it personally.
Right. Your sincerity reeks of self preservation. Have you noticed the govnah has lost most of the support he ever had? You are the only one who supports him. Go give your lame duck a kiss on the cheek and say farewell.
I think you should be more concerned about the Maine Democrats this election . The Maine Democrats already have lost Bill Diamond’s State Senate seat already due to noone running for it. They also lost 10 other seats besides that one as well from the same exact thing nobody running. Just as they intend to spend huge money in 5 very republican districts in Northern Maine they have zero chances of winning. So if the Democrats are such a great party why are they having such bad luck this year. Right now if the election is held today Republicans already will gain 11 seats, with Dems spending huge money on 5 they have no chance of winning because on the fact these folks they claim support LePage 100%. Democrats need to run the table and hope all Independents win and caucus with them its likely not to happen– according to Portland Press Herald. So if 2010 was bad for Maine Dems, 2012 is not going that well either the Dems here in Maine could get hammered badly. Democrats should have not worried about LePage does and ran on issues that can attract voters to them.
On the cheek? Didn’t the illustrious governor, himself, tell us to “kiss his butt?”
so dude, you should kiss a frog.
……
the lefties have been sore losers since day one after the election. the comments here prove it.
I’m not sure if I fall into the category of ‘lefty’ – but I am a liberal. I did not vote for Mr Lepage. I am proud of my state of Maine and decided to both respect our new governor and to wish him the best. After all, he is our leader. As time wore on, my position now is the ‘Thumper Rule’. If I have nothing nice to say, I will say nothing at all. I wouldn’t consider myself a sore loser. I am embarrassed at most of what comes out of his mouth. I will not put him down him in public, I will show my dismay at the polls.
Great. and good for you. That is a nice reminder. Seriously, thank you.
I wish that I had your discipline….
Right wing tea bagger in search of the truth. That’s a good one.
It is to bad that you have descended to the point of exemplifying your handle. While I am very critical of the Governor’s false and misleading statements it is hard for me to understand why those who criticize these qualities in the Governor would do so by joining him in displaying them. Come on what is that old saying lets agree to disagree without being disagreeable.
maybe that’s what he/she is interested in
There is a reason, sonny boy, there is a reason.
With the Koch Bros and smart Alec’s calling all the shots, what else does Pauly really have do except to try to defend his train wrecked, damaged, bill of goods as if they were quality ?
( Sorry, that was cheap and too easy, but the low hanging fruit can be sweet, sometimes, too )
Someone with a heart, a conscience, and honor.
Very good. You just named Gov. Paul Le Page……………
If you truly believe that, then I have a bridge I want to sell you.
He’s a bona fide sociopath .
He seems to lack all three.
No you want someone to feel sorry for people to take care of them. Someone who takes money from someone who works hard and has it redistributed through welfare programs which has been going on for decades under Democrats. Then Democrats go out and cry, talk their warm and fuzzy nonsense saying how they are for working Mainers and how they want everyone to live the American Dream. Well the Democrats don’t care about us working folks now. Nor have they taken up any of our ideas for more than 4 decades. All they have done is destroyed our lives, taken away our rights while made life luxurious for those refusing to work and provide for themselves. Democrats are heartless gutless cowards they have shown no compassion for us. The only things Democrats care about is taking care of their voting blocks, being in power and finding anyway they can to keep themselves from losing their seats in Augusta.
Tea Party cool-aid.
86d
In the US we spend more than 30 times on defense what we spend on “welfare”. There has been no comprehensive audit to reduce waste at the pentagon for some twenty years. WE surely waste more on defense than we spend on welfare in total.
You have been sold a lie that America is overly generous with our social programs. That does not hold up when comparing to other nations and it doesn’t hold up when you look at what our national priorities are.
You are full of venom for democrats but everything you attribute to them is wrong. Perhaps if you paid attention to what is really going on and even added a few numbers together yourself, you would feel differently, maybe not.
I have a question that I never manage to get an answer on but I will try again anyway: can you name one republican program or policy in the last twenty years that has made your life better? If you say tax reduction, you are barking up the wrong tree. Obama has reduced middle class taxes by more than Bush did in his term. Democrats support broad based reductions affecting 90% of the people while republicans support narrowly distributed cuts that benefit just a few.
I used to vote republican. I like balanced budgets and I like close oversight. These are the reasons I can no longer support republicans. they have become so singularly focused on propping up the already rich that they have thrown fiscal responsibility and stewardship of the national economy to the curb. It has gone from a nuisance to a matter of grave importance now.
Unless you are a millionaire yourself, you are being played by these pols. Both parties are corrupt but every once in a while democrats do something to help working families. Republicans never do this anymore. Ever. Not since Eisenhower anyway.
The GOP in Maine doesn’t care about State retirees, cutting future benefits for those getting more than $20,000 in a state pension.
What a bunch of crap!
Why is it you only show up for articles regarding Lepage, hammycrock?
I always get heinous, mad old man vibes from LePage.. This man dosen’t represent anything in my interest.
See what I mean about all the bad PR ?
(snicker)
They want big spending liberals who support the welfare state for governor. They don’t like the fact that Paul LePage is cutting welfare programs. That means these folks who lose their handouts will either now have to get jobs or leave for the next welfare state to live off of. Poor pity them they can’t live off of the struggling Maine Taxpayer anymore. These folks have had it so so hard. Now they might some of them have to finally get out get a job and have to earn it like all of us working folks.
86d
the 5 yr limit on tanf has already happened
That has been in effect for quite some time at the federal level with states using discretion in waiving it in some instances. Can’t credit LePage for that. He’s a tyrant.
Children benefit being at home with a parent for the first five critical years of their life.
—-
it is good that there now is a 5 yr limit on welfare, should be 2 yrs
Just about any decent human.
Eliot Cutler
Eliot Cutler has accomplished a life of intelligent capabilities.
Eliot Cutler is a good and logical choice
Anyone who truly cares about the advancement of Maine.
Why not make the Koch Bros. do it directly ?
Then, at least they would care ab0ut all the bad RP.
A better way to put it would be to point out that the Governor of Maine is totally incompetent. He doesn’t have the skills that are required to manage the job to which he was elected. No hard feelings, but it’s time for him to go back to managing surplus and salvage stores. He had a knack for that.
Ya, and made more money.
Congrat. on helping lose even more civility. I suppose the three of you even know what the NCES is and how to use its report generator to compile the trove of date in it?
LePage ripped down any art that supporter American workers. He told the citizens of Maine to kiss his as*. He started with no civility and has gone down hill from there. He trumpets unsupported accusations against his ideological opponents (with help from his masters at the Heritage Center) on a weekly basis and has been a state wide embarrassment from week one. So I love your sweet accusation that anyone’s opinion other than your is based upon ignorance. Their’s seems based upon experience. Congrats on being an uncivil minion yourself.
guess i would not expect anything less from you john the college professeur. stick to walking your dog
And I would expect that you would learn to spell. But that’s what I see on most T- Bagger signs anyway: misspellings, ignorance and serial rudeness. Both characterize the LePage administration as well. I will not be BULLIED from participating in my government on your say so. And I enjoy walking my dog AND contributing to the welfare of my state. Quite frankly I’m sick of the extreme right’s mindless rhetoric that claims that the more you study things and the more you learn, the LESS qualified you are to comment on these issues. What are your qualification to prohibit me from this discussion? Besides the arrogance?
Maybe there not misspelled.
Well the T-Baggers are busy creating their own bogus US history. Poor misused Thomas Jefferson! I imagine they could be creating their own bogus language as well.
Bet you’ve never read any Thomas Jefferson extensively? Bet you don’t know what Jefferson did for Maine’s public education system….I’d go on, but you’re a troll, so buzz off to your manure pile.
Ah. Another bully hiding behind a screen name trying to insult a Maine citizen. Want to see a troll? Look the the mirror. I am not the least bit interested in cleaning up your manure pile..part of which is on this message board as you insult and jeer at those who reject your narrow T- Bagger ideology. . Maybe you should learn to take responsibility for your OWN manure pile than suggesting other people clean up for you. After all, that’s welfare… Oh wait.. Obama and evil socialists and teachers and unions and atheists made it! Of course your own mess is not your fault.
” I imagine they could be creating their own bogus language as well. ”
They do that all the time. Like their mythical “job creators” who I figure must be to blame for the high unemployment, AT LEAST IN AMERICA,
after how many years of tax cuts for the wealthy ?
Where are all of those promised jobs ?
not sure I’d even let him clean up after mine.
Hey, Organicgardener, you’re absolutely right not to trust them near your manure, too.
Your compost pile is too valuable to let the the the GOTea sorts try to run it.
Ah-yup, we aren’t likely to get no insights like yours from no college professors.
Ain’t that just the truth, Topper ?
What is it that your common anti-intellectual prefers,
exactly ?
I’ve never figured that one out.
He is doing exactly what his sponsors are telling him to do. Exactly. The big money backers of this sham of a Governor are interested in only three things: Weaken organized labor to they can pay all workers less, weaken public education to open the door for privatization, and reduce any and all regulations that force industry to keep citizens safe. In the end all of these things produce more profits for big industry.
We have a governor who is scoring straight A’s on the only report card that he values. This ensures he will have a massive war chest when up for re-election. Why win elections by helping make Mainers lives better when you can win them with money?
yep, a store full of junk
Facts!!! Facts ??? Who needs no stinkin’ facts ???
Even when LePage does gives facts Liberals refuse to acknowledge the facts. So he can’t win either way. Baldacci and Angus King lied on alot of issues as well. At least LePage is trying to make an honest attempt on fixing things. I feel bad for the poor guy because Baldacci, King and Democrats left him a huge mess that will take 25 years to fix.
Ouch, the truth!
The governor would get better results if he didn’t act like a bully.
Even if he did the Liberals Warm and Fuzzy stupidity nonsense that they do they will still put the blame on him. Maine Democrats refuse to acknowledge they have failed and failed miserably. They could have put in honest good legislation to make an attempt to acknowledge Maine has issues all the way around. But they did not instead they put out press releases blaming everyone but themselves for the mess Maine is in. With them acting like none of the problems they created has occured. That Maine is a leader in every department and category. Well Newsflash to all Democrats that are involved with Augusta. Maine is at the bottom or near the bottom of everything thanks to your big spending ways. Now these folks are finally for the first time ever they are running like Far Left Wing Socialist Dems. Not like Conservative Republicans or Independents. Which Democrats always did. They campaigned like Republicans, Tea Partiers, Independents but when getting to Augusta they are Big Spending Socialists running wild on expanding welfare. Well they can’t run away this time from their ideas. Because they are running on wanting to return to “Super-Sized” Expansion of the past. With them wanting to expand Welfare to levels that will bankrupt Maine within a couple of years. They want to increase the sales tax to 6 or 7 % and tax everything at that rate. They also want to keep the 8.5% tax rate but add 3 new rates of 10 to 14.5% and tax everyone (single and couples) that make $50,000 a year and under. Emily Cain, Ben Grant (Maine Dem Party chairman) , Peggy Rotundo and several other Democrats feel especially Cain and Grant that $50,000 puts Mainers into the 1%. That everyone in Maine should be taken care of. Well they will end up driving everyone out execpt those on Welfare, Environmentalists, and those who also live on Government doles.
Maybe act like Rahm Emanuel or Harry Reid or Nancy Pelosi?
As a long time Republican I find it sad that the defense of the Governor is that he is no worse than the worst of the most liberal Democrats in the country. I expect more from my elected leaders than to be no worse than the worst of their competitors. Are we in a race to the bottom. I would prefer that we were discussing how our party leaders were better than the best of their competitors. Just sad that the party of Margaret Chase Smith has at least in this instance descended so far.
I find it unconscionable that all the awards and plaudits the Governor gets are ignored or shoved into some corner by the Media, and replaced by endless personal attacks, innuendo, back biting, and slander.
As Rupert Murdoch proved, sleeze sells!
like them or not, they are good politicians and know how to play the game. Unlike LePage
I’d like to play poker with him sometime. He has no idea what a “poker face” is. Sometimes it is good to keep one’s thoughts close to the vest. But blub a mouth wouldn’t understand that.
Really, Like the fact that there is a God? like the fact that evolution is a lie? How long are you going to blame the previous admin? Don’t you guys get mad when Liberals blame President Bush?
….
LePage asked for it and sadly for this state, he won the election. Maybe the others did lie sometimes but they had some class. Something LePage is too stupid to grasp. Adrienne Bennett was behind and to the side of LePage one night on the news. Looked like she was thinking, “what the heck is he going to say now that I will have to clean up.”
Let’s see. “per-pupil expenditures are well above average”. Student performance though is “lackluster”. Maybe we ought to spend more for teacher’s? Yeah, that’s worked great the last 20+ years or so. Or, how about rewarding teachers that can teach and get rid of those that can’t? Probably makes too much sense, and the union wouldn’t go for it.
You make me think that there may be lessons to be learned all around here. How about charging parents fines for their sons and daughters who disrupt classes, get detentions, expulsions, or simply fail to produce assigned work? I bet that would change education for the better toot sweet! A lot of folks like you might even be surprised to learn about what teachers are actually teaching your kids. Surprised because for the first time you’d be forced by fines to actually take some interest in what the heck your kids are or are not doing in school.
Not sure what you’re driving at in the last sentence, but agree to the first part.
We’re spending more for teacher’s salaries? At 40th in the nation?
Salaries and pensions are over 70% of the school budget; as faculty ages it costs more and more to pay them. Savvy superintendents find it saves money to encourage teachers to take an early retirement.
If your high school doesn’t have a 20:1 overall pupil to teacher ratio, you should find out why.
Of course people costs are the major cost in education. People costs are high for professional baseball teams. It comes with the territory. As to 20-1 student teacher ratio, are you saying that if the ratio is 12-1 it should be raised to 20-1? If so, that is the most idiotic thought on education imaginable.
are we talking a history class for high school students on their way yo college or severly disabled 10 yr olds? It makes a difference.
disagree with many of your posts but on the pupil teacher ration you have a very valid point. The educational research I have looked at shows that lower pupil teacher ratio only really benefits educational achievement in the primary grades. Fewer really good teachers from 3rd grade on would actually improve learning outcomes. The problem is that you will have a hard time convincing the parents to go along with that as they have bought the small class size is critical argument hook line and sinker.
Three years ago I requested and got the class schedule and size for the entire high school, thinking I could find the ’empty classrooms’. Ashe had most classes at 22…actually their automated scheduling program does the assignments; with new teachers having a slightly heavier load.
There were some larger ‘lecture’ classes and smaller seminars in specialized topics.
Because it’s Brunswick there were about 400 sep. subjects in the H.S. catalog, and heavily subscribed AP classes.
Ashe was able to juggle all of them and still have a relatively low per pupil cost, and high performance. He proved his genius to me and many others, including Jim Grant, Chair of the school board and a conservative Republican.
Jr. High always had large classes and ‘school within a school’ for those with serious handicaps and disorders; and sep. funding to cover the large cost.
And enrollment continues to fall; yet the cost of operating public schools continues to rise….only a government designed by liberal democrats will do that.
the school building has to be heated, whether there are 50 students or 500. If there is a small # being educated, there will be a higher cost per student. It’s pretty simply. This is the reason small schools in recent years have closed. i believe if the # of students was 50 or less, the school closed.
Are you one of those liberals with an open house that you have to heat despite using only one room at a time…..Bet the whole house is R35 and LEED compliant; but you heat the entire house when a real mainer has doors to rooms and shuts them when they aren’t using them.
Just want to illustrate that liberals and progressives are more likely to overlook the practical side of running schools, and stress the more expensive, politically correct option.
Small schools were closed by Baldacci’s consolidators who saw lots of undervalued real estate in small schools to support their grandiose dreams of huge new schools. Communities are now deconsolidating to restore the small school as a center of the community.
And you T- Baggers want to close them all and home school with religious textbooks. Aren’t stereotypes nice?
Actually Maine student performance is in the top tier of measured states (despite slow growth we are still well ahead of most states) our spending (despite no one knowing exactly what it is) appears about at the same place relative to other states (i.e. in the top quarter of states). Is that good enough? Not in my opinion. I agree with your idea of reducing the number of teachers and rewarding the best teachers. I think your right also about the Union opposing it but school board and voters have final say on number of teachers. The problem is that parents insist (probably partially due to union propaganda) on small class sizes that there is no research support for.
any fool knows that especially in the low grades & with children with special needs, a small class size is imperative.
Most children have some kind of ‘special need’ and those with behavior problems are medicated so they can mainstream with other children.
It depends on the IEP for the student as to which learning environment is best and when they can or can’t be included in a large class.
Actually the “fools” who conduct educational research across the nation disagree with you on this.
For example here is info from a meta analysis of class size research.
http://www.brookings.edu/research/papers/2011/05/11-class-size-whitehurst-chingos
“Because the pool of credible studies is small and the individual
studies differ in the setting, method, grades, and magnitude of class
size variation that is studied, conclusions have to be tentative. But
it appears that very large class-size reductions, on the order of
magnitude of 7-10 fewer students per class, can have significant
long-term effects on student achievement and other meaningful outcomes.
These effects seem to be largest when introduced in the earliest grades,
and for students from less advantaged family backgrounds.
When school finances are limited, the cost-benefit test any
educational policy must pass is not “Does this policy have any positive
effect?” but rather “Is this policy the most productive use of these
educational dollars?” Assuming even the largest class-size effects, such
as the STAR results, class-size mandates must still be considered in
the context of alternative uses of tax dollars for education. There is
no research from the U.S. that directly compares CSR to specific
alternative investments, but one careful analysis of several educational
interventions found CSR to be the least cost effective of those
studied.
The popularity of class-size reduction may make it difficult for
policymakers to increase class size across the board in order to sustain
other investments in education during a period of budget reductions. In
that context, state policymakers should consider targeting CSR at
students who have been shown to benefit the most: disadvantaged students
in the early grades, or providing a certain amount of funding for CSR
but leaving it up to local school leaders on how to distribute it.”
Let me repeat one particular line from this report “careful analysis of several educational
interventions found CSR to be the least cost effective of those
studied.” Maine has very small class sizes (on average even smaller than the small class size groups in the STAR study) not because it is best for students but because of our small rural schools, the preference of parents for very small classes and the preference of teachers for very small classes, and the myth that these very small classes are “imperative” for student success.
It is not just the Governor who should be accountable to facts rather than to claims based on “personal life experience” (i.e. opinions without evidence)
so you get rid of teachers who can’t teach what then? Not like there is a crop of amazing teachers out there that do not have jobs. The problem is that we do not have some of the best going into teaching, it simply does not attract our brightest minds. Almost all great or would be great teachers have jobs. Why? Because the schools are smart enough to know that this person is going to be a great teacher. You get rid of bad teachers fine, but you are not going to replace them with anything better because there is not much better out there. You pay teachers badly and you get bad people. Why would high achieving individuals go into teaching when there a lot of better paying jobs for the same amount of education? Its very uncommon that you get someone that would make a great Vet, accountant, or business leader go into teaching instead.
The caliber of the people who enter UMS education schools is considerably lower than those who enter other professional schools; and there are quite a few who need remediation….why are we not surprised when they graduate and get teaching jobs and then don’t perform like people with better aptitude? You only get out of the system, what you put into it. ….3 credits for bulletin board design????
The Urban Teacher Corps concept of a teacher certification boot camp run over the summer for bright liberal arts graduates has promise, but resisted by the union. Same with hiring people from the DOD schools to both teach and manage the school.
A good education is priceless. The GOP doesn’t want to spend money on schools, then kids get passed through from grade to grade, quit school or maybe they do graduate from High school. then they have a child or children and have to go on welfare because they can’t hold down a job. I gave an employee at McDonald’s $10.01 for my $5.01 bill and she didn’t understand she needed to give me $5.00 in change.
Expect LePage and the Heritage Foundation Thought Machine to distort data and pander to the psychological needs of their target audience, while avoiding fair, honest rational thought.
It has, unfortunately, become the GOP way.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/lets-just-say-it-the-republicans-are-the-problem/2012/04/27/gIQAxCVUlT_story.html
Unreal…it just doesn’t end.
…..esp. when you keep it going, and going, and going.
“Politicians use statistics in the same way that a drunk uses lamp-posts for support rather than illumination.” – Andrew Lang. In Mr. LaPage’s case we may need to surround him with high intensity lasers in hopes of casting enough light for such a dim mind to see the forest through the trees or the needs of students over the greedy profits of his corporate friends who are now drooling over the possibility of privatizing our public schools. Guess where our tax dollars would go then? Caymens or Swiss bank accounts? You betcha.
Can’t use the Cayman’s since Baldacci’s treasurer, D. Lamoine blew off $30m of taxpayer money on a derivative’s fund called MAINSAIL that went belly up in two weeks!
Sussman is still taking money in the Virgin Islands, and Cutler has all those Chinese connections; try them.
How totally disgusting . It seems the Libs are the ones who stink.
Everything stinks when you live in an environment predominately sulfur like the entire GOP. Cant smell crap when you are full of it.
and I thought only the Left smelled like low tide’
No we THINK… learn to spell.
LOLS. think NOT nice unless it is your way.
This is all a ploy by MHPC, and 1% of Mainers who own the governor and want to build charter schools so they can steal from public schools.
Five sources cannot agree on the arithmetic of education costs. Two years ago, Belfast area MSAD overspent its budget by 1 million dollars. Now the Newport area RSU has done the same. Brilliant. Are we overburdened by inept administrators coming into education as a second career? Yes. Do we have home-grown talent or, at least, career educators capable of doing as good a job? Should those taking administrative positions be required to take psychological tests much the same that college students, government security personel, high tech hires, etc., have to put up with. It certainly might help us not hire swell-headed, smooth talkers who are more interested in their accumulation power than in the common good. If we can get a head of steam going, maybe candidates for elected office could be on the test list too.
I guess I’m in the minority here, why do we compare what is spent per pupil to the national averagr, and why should we try to achieve numbers closer to that average. The average skews low because of a number of states, mostly in the south, that spend a pittance on public education. We should strive to spend wisely and be proud that we value education enough to exceed the average. Desoite the governors idiotic claims, maine students perform quite well, above average, and we should celebrate that while working to improve.
Given that property taxes have doubled in the past 10 years (at least they have in my part of Maine) and education is listed as 46% of the distribution for my taxes, I believe the high figure quoted.
It doesn’t seem like that money is being used PROPERLY to actually contribute to educating students. After all, teachers are being cut, facilities aren’t being maintained, arts and electives are being eliminated, and students are graduating with very poor math and reading skills. Like most other government-run organizations, funds are being wasted on administration and other frivolous areas.
I’d be interested in an audit of expenditures to see what percentage of that $15K per student goes towards actual student-related expenses such as teacher salaries, textbooks, building and bus maintenance vs. non-education expenses. I don’t have kids, but I wouldn’t mind paying the taxes so much if I at least thought the kids in this state were getting a decent education. It doesn’t seem that they are, and we’re all getting ripped off.
I tend to agree with all you said. I add that many smaller schools have been closed in the past several years and our taxes have risen in the towns that no longer have an open school. Also we are not allowed to vote on school issues as our kids are now just over the county line in the other school. Nothing is perfect, but a list should be made and determined what is correct and what is incorrect.
A couple of things that districts have to fork up more money for than they did in the past- data management and technology.
Also, consider the rising costs of fuel, food, and healthcare- an employee’s benefit package is a huge expense.
We have more kids coming to school who need one-on-ones. Expensive.
That information is available at the Maine DOE web site under the data section. Also your local school district budget is broken out by category and presented that way at the annual budget meeting each year. Also each school district has an annual financial audit which is available upon request from the school district.
You are right to raise this issue. Some quick information I have learned by researching this at the DOE website and other locations.
1. Maine has above average per pupil transportation costs. This is due in great part to our very rural and low density geography increasing the miles traveled by students. This has been aggravated by geographic consolidation of schools. The unavailability of public transportation which provides low or no cost to schools transport in more urban settings. The insistence of parents on door to door transportation compared to the tradition years ago of students within a mile of school walking and those farther away gathering at periodic stops.
2. Maine and in fact the U.S. in general spends a great deal of “school funds” on sports programs that are not part of education costs in other countries. Maine has decided that community sport and recreation programs will be delivered through our schools rather than as a municipal function. This not only significantly inflates our “education costs” it makes the direct costs of such programs much more expensive than community based sports programs. Think about the cost of little league baseball vs. a school based middle school baseball program and you will instantly understand this cost inflation issue. This delivery of sports programs in schools not only has direct cost implications it also inflates other cost areas indirectly including facility construction and maintenance costs, facility energy costs, grounds development and maintenance costs, and transportation costs.
3. Maine’s system administration costs are much higher on a per pupil basis even though the salaries of central office staff are lower than national average. This is a result of having many more individual school districts for the number of students we have than national average. It is popular to suggest we cut out some of these administrative costs until people face what this would actually mean. The truth is that the number of central offices in Maine is determined by the number of local school boards. While the Baldacci consolidation plan was a disaster. The coming break up of consolidated school districts will result in more small inefficient central offices over the next few years.
4. While Maine’s teacher salary levels are much lower than national averages the number of teachers for our student population is high. So the teacher cost per pupil ends up above average. This is a direct result of parent pressure on school boards to keep class size low and of the many small rural schools that have less than a full complement of students per grade level. While the Governor’s suggestion of a class of 500 taught by a teacher over computer is radical the current situation of extremely low pupil to teacher ratio is not sustainable. Research I have looked at shows that the cost of such low class size is not justified by student achievement particularly after 2nd grade. We would get more bang for our bucks to have fewer more effective better paid teachers and targeted interventions with extended school day/year for challenged students. But this would not be popular with parents.
well there are 4 of the big non productive cost drivers.
For starters Hampden just built a new high school that cost millions
This has nothing to do with education! It is about the MEA supporting same-sex marriage and LePage is homophobic. It is his counterattack.
Please back up those outrageous accusations.
Why don’t you?
Actually I was waiting for you to state facts. You seem to know so much.
There you go again…a defiant order instead of a gentle request. You make a mockery of the word civil, unless it’s taken from the CIVIL WAR, which def. wasn’t.
Please rsign Paul, your not going to survive till 2014.
If you think Eliot Cutler is going to save us lol. Well he’s not he is nothing more than Angus King on steroids. That is why Angus King was supporting him in 2010. Because Angus and friends would have made out like bandits from all of the new spending policies that Cutler was going to impose on us. Only Barbara Merrill or even Rosa Scarcelli with all of her problems can beat LePage. If Merrill had 2 weeks more in 2006 Baldy would have been unemployed. If she ran against LePage , LePage would have hard time running against her. Why her economic policies for Maine are good ones that would draw in Republicans, Independents, even Tea Partiers. That is why she left Democrat Party she was out of touch with them on alot of issues. But if Cutler can’t beat LePage this time how does anyone expect him to win in 2014 if you get even more decent folks running against LePage.
Merrill was clearly the answer before, one can only hope she’ll re-emerge.
Cutler would have a cake walk running against LePage
You heard it here from me… JOHN BALDACCI IS COMING BACK TO RUN FOR GOVERNOR, AND SAVE THE DEMOCRATS FROM EXTINCTION!
I hope this is true but I don’t see him giving up.
Spelling error.
It is so frustrating.
Communities should be proud about how much they can spend on education (wisely, not wastefully).
Wouldn’t you want your children in a school system that properly funds its staff and facilities?
Would you move to a community that is constantly publicizes all the things it is cutting?
I realize you have to headline those things sometimes to get a budget passed, but gee whiz, what does it say about our society?
Frankly, the only thing I took from this article
is that NO ONE knows how much money is being spent……
Don’t get me wrong and I know this will spark a few fiery responses. Teachers are certainly some of he most honorable people on Earth for the lessons they teach and the influence they have had on my life and many people. I am not, however, overly sympathetic to the discussion of them being under compensated. I know they deal with unruly kids (and parents) but let’s be honest, they have summers off, work until about 4:00pm each day and have way more days off throughout the school year than just holidays. Many people work just as long (if not longer each day), have no vacation time (or much less than a full summer), and make just as much (sometimes less). Still not a bad gig in comparison.
Your metrics have been challenged before. And note that proportionally less goes to Maine teacher’s salaries since we rank 40th in salaries.
Okay I took the bait and here is my fiery response. Everybody wants to be a teacher in the summer! Let’s see, summers off… I have taken two classes, tutored and have just begun getting my classroom ready for school to begin. Yes, my schedule is much better now than the school year. The hours I am at work are 7:30-4:30 and usually do at least an hour of work in the evening. I have been teaching for many years, so I am not complaining about my salary. Just complaining that people should stop throwing us under the bus and focus on the real problems.
You are not figuring in the “other” positions teachers are expected to fill. They are expected to do after school extracurricular activites, run after school enrichment classes or activities, coach sports, and after school dententions or study sessions. Then they can go home and correct the rest of the papers they collected that day and do the rest of the stuff they need to do with their family. They also have to continually take classes themselves to keep their license and certification to teach. Many times the summers off are not summers off. I know many teachers who work the tourist season to compensate for the low pay, especially beginning teachers. I taught for many years and got tired of hearing “you have summers off and all the holidays”.
86d
teachers may go home at 4 but often are carrying home work they have to do in the evenings when the rest of us are spending time with our families. My mom was a teacher so i know from first hand experience. the teachers who teacher music spend many additional hours on the job doing never ending concerts. I am sure there are other specialized areas
where the teachers put in additional hours that the public doesn’t see.
LePage is definitely not like Jack Webb/Sgt. Friday (“All I want is the facts, Ma’am”).
He’s using the National Center for Educational Statistics, which is used by all serious Educational policy analysts. Besides your OUIJA board and bath salts, you got something better?
The exact phrase was, “just the facts, ma’am, just the facts.” Now there was a good show.
Governor LePage got his figures from the National Education Association? I thought he hated the National Education Association. It’s a union for public employees. Since when has Governor LePage believed anything the NEA has had to say? That’s like Warren Buffett looking for business advice in the Communist Manifesto.
I get facts from NEA…like how much money they make selling health insurance to teachers and the details of their contracts and p.r. campaigns….always watch your enemies closely.
As usual, our resident gardener is busy sowing his seeds of teasipping claptrap while making up the rest of his drivel to impress the cretinous ideologues here. I’ve called you on a few of your so-called “facts” as you present them. Why is it everything you say results in being pure spin when anyone takes the time to dissect your propaganda? I guess we can just chalk it up to artistic license from a party shill or worse yet being a “true believer” from a fanatical sense. As a tea party ideologue I hope you are getting paid to pump out this tripe as many of your friends on other boards get paid by the piece.
‘tripe’ ‘ideologue’ ‘teasipping’ ‘claptrap’ ‘drivel’ ‘cretinous’ …just be sure to clean up your mess and stay off my beach; the dogs will get jealous.
The only fact one can gather from this governor is that we are witnessing the Peter Principle in effect.
Absolutely no insight from this article.
Apparently Lepage is creating jobs.
Ha, no he is not.
NCES statistics are golden, and consistent across all states, i.e. an error in one is repeated for the others because of similarities in data analysis.
Quibbling over whether it’s 12th or close to it, is silly since Maine spends way too much and gets too little in the minds of many educators.
Lepages’ reforms are drawn from successes around the U.S. and endorsed by the Obama Dept. of Education, esp. charter schools. and they are definitely data driven.
Resistance is futile; major reform of public education is underway!
So let me see if I can figure out what you have just said. Charter schools are a success and are endorsed by the Obama administration. LePage has included charter schools in his reforms. But my guess is you don’t like the Obama administration. Right?
After reading this article I’ve come to realization that no one actually knows what the number is. We have all these reports and they all have different conclusion. My mother use to tell me that figure’s don’t lie, but that liars figure.
However dubious LePage’s fact-checking, the MEA is clearly way above the national average, if not number one, in massaging the numbers.
open a book and read
Regardless of which figures are correct; Me. ranks high in per pupil cost and low for teachers salaries. Am I missing something? If I am not then what happens to the money after it gets to the Super’s office? To be fair; maybe our teacher to student ratio is lower.
I realize that this article is bashing LaPage [I am no fan of him by the way] but I think the bigger issue is the question I raised above. NEA/MEA should look into this or if they already have the answer then please make it public.
You’re right, so the question is: why hasn’t MEA – which has and spends millions of dollars of resources – done anything real about this over the many, many years it’s been happening? They took NO position on school consolidation and that could have been a good mechanism to solving the “Maine spends too much on school administration” problem.
list the brain surgeons that went though maine public schools?
how about heart surgeons?
NONE
how many maine students were already alcoholics and pot heads by high school graduation day?
99%?
Governor Lepage is correct
mainers cant handle the truth
Your data sources and conclusions are just as real and reliable as LePage’s. In other words, fictional.
The truth ……….he got elected by the people didn’t he. Better than what we had before with baldy…he was and still is a loser in my eyes…
mmmm, I don’t see a whole lot of support pouring in for your statement…….
SO, Like I care, about support of any kind……..especially yours. No one is going to make everyone happy and those who try die a slow misserable like
LePage was not elected by a majority
What do you you expect? You elect a guy who is a blank slate, surround him with a bunch of ideologically bent right wingers and he will say and do anything to further that thinking of those pumping his head full of their ideological glop. Come on he was a CEO of junk before becoming an expert in education, job creation, women’s health and political diplomacy?
The School Association doesn’t like the doors to their club house opened for the public to see.
Teacher pay is 40th. And how does pay for school ADMINISTRATORS (superintendents, principals, unnecessary curriculum coordinators/assistant superintendents ) rank. I suspect, with surety, that admin pay ranks much higher than that of everyone’s favorite whipping-boy group: teachers.
Yes, where does the money go if not to the teachers, the most important piece of the mix.
It would be helpful to know what is included in those costs. For instance, is heating and building maintenance included? Our heating oil dependence in Maine costs us way more than city schools who can use natural gas supplies, or schools in warmer climates.
Ok…so Maine is 14th rather than 10th…is that really an good argue point.
“We need to understand where we are now and what it will take to get us to where we need to be for all of our students.”
Um…the problem is where we are now is pathethic and there is no current plan, different from the path that led us to pathetic, to get us to ‘where we need to be’. Why are our educational organizations trying to stay put in pathetic and coming up with some ideas of thier own? Why continually fight people who have ideas other than what is staus quo..probably not political..
Does anybody remember that Falmouth public schools were rated among the best in the country last year?
see: http://www.forbes.com/2011/04/25/best-schools-for-real-estate-buck.html
Granted, one town doesn’t necessarily speak for the entire state, but I suspect Mr. LePage probably ought to do some research before he opens his mouth. … Oh. I forgot. He doesn’t do that. His “life experience” is the only standard that counts.
So, one idea in this search for truth is that the teachers, the most important component in education, are not paid well. What can we do about it? Bashing them is not helpful.
Hopefully the Governor has started a meaningful dialogue on this issue. Is there a realistic solution or are we wasting our time on an issue that can not be meaningfully resolved. What are the results we are getting for our educational dollar. I am not convinced at this point that not showing better increase in test scores are the answer. If we started out high getting higher results will be all that much harder. Our families recent results do not show a looking down on Maine education per say but more on whether you went to a private school or a public school.
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Lepages history of supporting the Heritage Foundations agenda by hand picking statistics is only exceeded by his knack for spouting opinion as fact!!
39% of Maine Residents have only a high school education
39% of Maine voters put Paul LePage in the Governors office
Could it be that UN-education is a Conservative Agenda?
?…now, why would a bunch of Ivy-League educated millionaires want uneducated constituents…?
Is there any group in Maine that LePage hasn’t offended yet? Be patient. Your turn will come.
Facts are not facts unless you can put a good democrat spin on them.Maybe teachers should slow down on the one plus one equals two daddy’s and start teaching real subjects.
The problem with LePage is that he’s lost all credibility with most Mainers. He’d best resign. Most of us see him as a sock puppet for out of state interests and his behavior and actions just prove that again and again. This is the Great State of Maine, not a subsidiary of the parasitic, out of state, ideologues of the Heritage Center!