AUGUSTA, Maine — An ongoing feud over whether a Vietnam War-era National Guard member is qualified to serve on a state board has raised the question of who is a veteran.
Earlier this week, Rep. Paul Gilbert, D-Jay, questioned whether National Guard service during the early 1970s makes someone a military veteran.
Gov. Paul LePage, Republican lawmakers and members of Maine veterans organizations quickly expressed outrage that Gilbert raised the issue.
During a Labor, Commerce, Research and Economic Development Committee confirmation hearing Tuesday on Christopher Pierce’s nomination to serve on the Finance Authority of Maine’s board, Gilbert said that service in the National Guard during the early 1970s “was not considered qualification for veteran’s status.”
“I think your credentials are great, but to fill a seat to be occupied by a veteran — that’s questionable,” said Gilbert, who along with two other Democrats voted against Pierce’s nomination. The committee voted 7-3 to endorse it, and the full Senate will take up the matter Thursday.
For the purpose of eligibility for preferential employment status, federal labor law defines a veteran as “an individual who —
(A) served on active duty in the armed forces during a war, in a campaign or expedition for which a campaign badge has been authorized, or during the period beginning April 28, 1952, and ending July 1, 1955;
(B) served on active duty as defined by section 101 (21) of title 38 at any time in the armed forces for a period of more than 180 consecutive days any part of which occurred after January 31, 1955, and before October 15, 1976, not including service under section 12103 (d) of title 10 pursuant to an enlistment in the Army National Guard or the Air National Guard or as a Reserve for service in the Army Reserve, Navy Reserve, Air Force Reserve, Marine Corps Reserve, or Coast Guard Reserve;
(C) served on active duty as defined by section 101 (21) of title 38 in the armed forces during the period beginning on August 2, 1990, and ending on January 2, 1992; or
(D) served on active duty as defined by section 101 (21) of title 38 at any time in the armed forces for a period of more than 180 consecutive days any part of which occurred during the period beginning on September 11, 2001, and ending on the date prescribed by Presidential proclamation or by law as the last date of Operation Iraqi Freedom.”
By that definition, Pierce, a Cumberland resident, would not qualify for status as a veteran. However, state law related to membership on the 15-member FAME boardsimply requires that two of the at-large members be veterans. A 1997 statute defines “veteran” as “any person who has served in the U.S. Armed Forces and was not dishonorably discharged,” but does not link service on the board in any way to the federal law.
Gilbert’s reservations about whether Pierce should be considered a veteran enraged LePage, who fired off an angry release Tuesday afternoon in which he described Gilbert’s statements as “outrageous” and “out of line.”
Four Republican state representatives — Ken Fredette of Newport, Dennis Keschl of Belgrade, Jarrod Crockett of Bethel and Doug Damon of Bangor — blasted Gilbert for his “shocking remarks regarding National Guard veterans” in a release issued Wednesday afternoon. The release lists extensive military service for all four legislators.
“A National Guardsman is certainly no less of a veteran than any other soldier, sailor or airman,” Keschl said in the release.“”Rep. Gilbert’s remarks are incredibly insensitive, and he owes all those who have served in the National Guard an apology.”
Gilbert stood his ground. “While I respect Christopher Pierce and his service to the National Guard, I strongly believe this position should be filled by someone who meets the VA’s own criteria for being a veteran,” he said in a release from the House Democratic Office. “I’m a proud veteran who served in Panama and at the Army War College. … I’d be happy to match my record of service with the governor any day.”
Members of the Veterans of Foreign Wars and American Legion disagreed with Gilbert’s interpretation of what constitutes a veteran.
“I worked with them side by side,” said Caribou resident Peter Miesburger of the VFW. “They picked up the workload and carried on. It was an issue during the late 1960s or early 1970s, but it’s not now. My attitude was always ‘Put them in fatigues, they’re just another airman.’”
American Legion member William “Chick” Ciciotte of Topsham, a Vietnam-era veteran, has organized recognition ceremonies for more than 500 Maine veterans. He said those ceremonies make no distinction between active-duty military and National Guard service.
“When they put the uniform on, they are subject to call and put their lives on the line,” Ciciotte told the Bangor Daily News.
To make this simple, in order to qualify as a veteran under the federal guidelines, one must have spent time on active duty AFTER your initial training upon enlistment and not counting your 15 annual “AT” days. If you enlist in any part of the national guard or reserves, and only go on active duty to complete yourr initial basic training and/or AIT/”tech school” training, and then only complete your drills and AT days, you are not a veteran, according to the federal government. If you are injured or sustain any kind of disabaling condition while conducting this time, you can qualify for “disabled veteran” status is your injury or illness can rate it. Thats how I understand this but I could be wrong. If you serve 1 day on Title 10 orders you then are serving on “Active Duty” just like you enlisted in the Active Forces.
As a Disabled Veteran, There are so many things I would like to say to Mr. Gilbert but I’m sure this would be deleted post haste. Should I ever meet him face to face, I’d be more than happy to explain to him just what a veteran is. In veteran language.
Since he, too, is a veteran I’m sure that he can respond in the appropriate vernacular.
Agreed.
What an over-reaction. A federal labor law is very clear that Pierce does not qualify as a veteran. Don’t make more of this than is there.
Did you serve? Why would you complain about this?
The federal law cited is only for employment preference. It is not a universal definition of veteran. See GW below.
The definition of “veteran” is in the Maine statute regarding FAME: 10 MRSA §963-A.51.
Point taken. Still, I don’t know why the FAME definition (not dishonorably served in Armed Forces) differs from the VA benefits definition (honorably served in active duty Armed Forces), or the employment preference definition (honorably? served in active duty Armed Forces during a “war”). The purpose of two veteran members of the FAME board is elusive.
Thank you Phant….My brother was in the NH National Guard, send to Vietnam, died of leukemia caused by Agent Orange in 2007…..I think he would be surprised that he wasn’t a veteran.
Can you read? If you were with the Guard, you’re not a veteran. You’re only a veteran once you have been on qualifying active duty. Your brother was probably a veteran since he was on active duty and thus under federal control.
I don’t know why Representative Gilbert raised this issue. It seems pretty trivial and probably irrelevant. But I do remember this. In the days of the Vietnam War, joining the National Guard was one of the acceptable ways to avoid that unpleasantness, including joining the Air National Guard and flying missions, on occasion, over Texas. To then claim veterans’ status 30 years later, after flying missions over Texas, is shameful with respect to the soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines who actually went to Vietnam.
It does seem trivial on the surface. I had no idea that there was such a definition for a veteran. My husband is retired military, but he spent 8 years active duty and 15 or so years in the Air National Guard.
There are apparently two board positions for veterans. I was wondering why the need for veterans on the board. I suppose it could be because Maine is one of the four states with the highest percentage of veterans in the population (12%). I guess if there are that many veterans then perhaps many of them are or would like to be small business owners who might use the service the board provides, thus veteran representation on the board. Perhaps someone else can clue me in on this.
I remember it very well. I think the National Guard was generally thought to be a haven for draft dodgers during the Vietnam War. Still, some National Guardsman were mobilized and sent to Vietnam.
Very few guardsmen were activated and sent during Vietnam, almost all were expert snipers.
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At that time the state National Guard was not nationalized and the governor of Maine was their commander in chief, not the president.
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It is very resonable to ask the question of whether a person exempt from active duty on any war front and NOT serving under the US Government meets the legal definition.
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The fake, carefully staged, “outrage” at this respectfully and rightfully asked question is disgusting. It is LePage and his legisltive enablers who are trying to politicize this and they are trying to score dishonest political points on the backs of real veterans.
I also remember it very well. Things were very different then. Soldiers were being drafted with 30% of the combat deaths in Vietnam being draftees. Service in Vietnam was not all that popular.
Among the ways to minimize exposure to that unpleasantness was enlistment in a Guard unit. In fact, several of my friends chose this option and performed their weekend duties along with a couple of weeks in the summer. After the draft ended, and particularly in recent years, Guard members have been called on heavily to fill assignments overseas. I have no disrespect for anyone who has served in the National Guard, and certainly not to anyone who has been activated and required to perform service no different than active duty.
But I do have a problem with men of my era who chose an easier way at that time and now represent themselves in a way not entirely justified. I have an even bigger problem with the young men back then who had “more important things to do” than serve in the military, and 35 years later, order the next generation into harm’s way.
I typed a very long reply, but it disappeared when I tried to post it, and now I’m too tired to do it again. I’ll just say that I’m a Vietnam vet from ’67 and learned when I got back that Vietnam vets were generally viewed with disdain and sometimes contempt. We were looked at as chumps, and I learned not to talk about my service (7 years, Marine Corps and Navy) except with other veterans. But now all these years later military service isn’t considered dishonorable, and the guys who ran away to Canada and otherwise dodged the draft aren’t so cool. How the worm has turned!
I’ve always thought that the treatment of Vietnam vets was wrong. They sometimes say things like, “It’s a rich man’s war and a poor man’s fight.” I don’t think things have changed that much. The powers that be decided we had to stop communism in Vietnam then drafted young men and sent them off to do the dirty work. Returning vets became whipping boys, unjustly, for America’s sense that what we were doing in Vietnam wasn’t quite right when in fact those young men were just doing what their country asked of them
I hope that the passage of years and what you refer to as “the worm has turned” has enabled you to feel better about the way America saw its youth 40 years ago.
This issue is Bush’s fault?
For some, Bush is at fault for most things. But National Guard or regular Air Force, intent to avoid Vietnam or not, I’ll give him credit for becoming a military aviator. It’s a dangerous job just flying those things.
Thanx Jess Thinkin, Other than that little poke you took at Bush, (although true) I agree with you 100%. I’m one of those who served a couple of tours in Vietnam and I look at the National Guarders of that era as just a short step above the draft dodgers who took refuge in Canada. There were some Nat Guard who were sent to Vietnam, but they were few.
I didn’t deploy to a combat zone when I was in the Guard. Glad to know that service somehow doesn’t count.
It counts, just not as much as it does if you’ve been shot at. Sorry, but there it is.
Depends on whether you were in the guard after it changed from being a state only organization with the governor as commander in chief (not the president).
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Today’s guradsment may be called to duty by the feds anywhere in the world and thus deserve the title of Veteran if they serve during a time of conflict. During Vietnam that was not the case.
According to another BDN story today, you apparently only need to be a beer brewer since the mid-1990s to be called a “Veteran.” Who knew?
“Beer veteran to open specialty brewery in Durham”
http://bangor-launch.newspackstaging.com/2012/09/06/news/midcoast/beer-veteran-to-open-specialty-brewery-in-durham/?ref=latest
Seriously, as a veteran I’m happy to call ALL “My brothers (and sisters) in arms”… veterans.
That guy’s not even selling six packs. Hardly veteran behavior.
But that is far less shameful than to go to college under a student deferment, then head to Canada after graduating, while our men lay dying in ‘Nam…as our disgraceful governor did.
LePage avoided the draft by having a special dumbed down college entrance exam created just for him when he failed the one everyone else had to pass.
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That special treatment, which allowed him to take a seat in college at the expense of someone who actually qualified, gave him a student deferment.
Many people miss the the concept behind why people joined the National Guard. Historically, the National Guard units were made up of local home home boys and, if they were called up, they went as a unit with people they knew. Draftees, on the other hand, were placed in units where they knew no one and it took time to develop the cohesion that is inherent in a Guard or Reserve unit. Over 7,000 Guard people served in Vietnam and other were called up to serve in other locations. I had to do a line of duty investigation in Okinawa in 1968 on a dentist who was a member of an Alabama National Guard unit. These peope knew they were subject to being called up, so comparing them draft dodgers indicates a lack of knowing what the politics in the Pentagon were.
I was deployed to Desert Storm as a Department of the Army civilian, side by side with the troops, which counts for nothing toward veteran status.
However, I was active duty in Vietnam,71-72, in a unit that had been augmented by a Reserve unit from New York. So, I get a little riled when someon puts down those who served, regardless of their status.
LTC, US Army, Retired
This was a respectfully asked question about whether someone who served in a unit that was never nationalized and who was never eligible to be sent into a war zone, is deserving of the title of Veteran that is legally reserved for those who actually took those risks.
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If I asked you whether you met the definition of a Marine when you served in the Navy, would that be “putting down” your service in the Navy? No – of course not. Just as this question was not.
In fact statute does define “veteran” in the chapter related to FAME (Chapter 110, 10 MRSA
§963-A.51.):
51. Veteran. “Veteran” means any person who served in the United States Armed Forces and was not dishonorably discharged.
Excellent research.
Case closed it seems to me.
I always thought that to be the definition, but a 76 year old friend who served on a Navy destroyer, never in any more danger than the Cold War, told me that he considers himself a veteran only technically. He doesn’t consider himself a ‘real veteran’ because he was never in any conflict.
There are likely as many personal opinions about what is a veteran as there are people. But that is of no matter – the law defines it.
Agreed. Not being one, I just thought this old timer’s deference to the men and women in combat to be quite noble, really.
I totally agree here. I’m active duty – going on 15 years – and don’t really consider myself a veteran since i haven’t been in combat. When I think of veteran, I really am thinking of “combat veteran” not someone who has only pushed paper around, or just served stateside.
I just want to say i personally cannot thank vietnam combat veterans enough for what they went through in combat and when they came back to the states.
and before i get jumped.. I was a young lad in the 60’s and watched all the goings on in this country on tv. it scared the crap out of me what was happening. when i was 14 and so naive i called a soldeir walking down the street a babykiller because i thought that was the appropriate thing to do as everyone around me was saying the same thing. AS i got older and wiser and started reading up on any vietnam novel i could get my hands on, i realized just how hurtful i personally had been to a soldier (any soldier). Any combat book i’ve ever read(even to this day). i cry for them and it’s important to me to relive in a novel what they went through as a punishment to me for calling that soldier a babykiller. i’ll live the rest of my life with what i said as i should, but i also whant to thank from the bottom of my heart, any veteran who has served our contry with honor. P.S. thank you for listening.
No body can jump on you for such a heartfelt and eloquent comment!
The people really grew to hate that ‘police action’, but the way the service members (mostly drafted) were treated was atrocious! I’m roughly your age and lived through it too. I was scared to death as I neared eligibility, but we got out just before that happened.
Korea is called the ‘forgotten war’ so I guess VN can be called the hated or ignored war?
A lot of people felt that way during the Vietnam War, when there was a general atmosphere of disdain for anyone in the military. You have to have been there to understand it.
While I respect all service members and want to thank each one (Nixon pulled us out of Nam just weeks before I turned 1A). I usually think of what the letters ‘VFW’ stand for. Old school thinking maybe. :)
Then you have no idea about it then. Maybe you should get out. Because you are a veteran. I can’t believe you would not consider yourself one. Just because you haven’t seen combat has nothing to do with it!
I agree that by the definition provided above, I am. I’m not arguing about that. I’m just saying that when i think of a veteran, it is really a combat veteran that I think of.
Oh, and i’ll certainly be staying in long enough to call myself a “military retiree.”
I don’t believe matt1544 is intending to denegrate anyone’s service, only pointing out the obvious difference in service between non-combat veterans and those who have combat experience. If there were no difference, the employment preference would not be there and everyone would get a CIB.
What commonsense38 said.
Pierce was not in Canada. nuff said
If you got a DD-214 Discharge Certificate that had your discharge type listed as Honorable, General or Medical then you are a VETERAN. That’s by Federal Law. Maine want’s to go and argue the point, fine. Maine is already in deep doo-doo over the Medicaid issue and now they want to go and poke the Federal Court’s over the definintion of what is a veteran ? Can someone please take the AG to the local VA Hospital and show him what a veteran is. Oh, that’s right. Lil’ Billy has supposedly been thru Ft. Benning’s Infantry School. Obviously his time at either Marshal Hill or Harmony Church didn’t stick. So much for keeping the faith……….
I believe that it can be harder to be in the National Guard than on regular active duty. Here’s an example. Person #1 is on active duty. they have a desk job stateside. They serve one master. after 20 years they can collect a check if discharged honorably. Person #2 is in the National Guard and has a regular civilian job as well. This person serves two masters. His regular employer and his military one. The one weekend a month model doesn’t really apply anymore. A person does have to spend time during the month preparing for drill weekends. The Boss from the regular job also expects that his or her duties will be performed as well. I am in a profession where working weekends and holidays is a must. I used to only get one weekend off a month when in the Guard. In Fact I worked more weekends while in the National Guard than I ever did while on active duty. Too bad I have to wait until I am 60 to recieve any sort of pension. Unlike the desk jockey who served on active duty.
I also wouldn’t trade any of my experiences for anything.
Right, if you use imaginary examples with person number one staying in one job at one location their whole carreer. You can tell you did not serve in the active military, as that never happens. In 20 years you would probably be at at leaset 3 or 4 locations with probably one overseas. Not to mention hyou are not living at home with your friends and family.Harder? Get real.
There are still people that manage to retire from the active military that never actually served in a combat theatre. Overseas yes. but I would argue that there is a difference between serving in England or Germany vs Iraq, or the Phillipines. As far as not living with friends and family, Heck, I know many people that are living all over the country that are from Maine but no longer live here. They have family with them. They have new friends where they are at. I also don’t remember saying in my post that my imaginary active duty person was staying in the same job place for the entire time. Just that that person manned a desk.
You said they served one master the whole time, it implied
to me the same boss, as opposed to two. Between getting moved, and the bosses
getting moved, active duty members are constantly serving different people. In
both the Guard and civilian life, you can “serve’ the same boss your whole
career. I want to say the Guard is very honorable service and I do not mean to
diminish it, I just don’t feel it falls under the definition of veteran in my mind.
I am proud and respectful of all those who volunteer to serve our country.
oh I also have been on active duty. three different times in fact. I also lost a pile of cash while serving on my last two deployments. No biggy. Didn’t do it for the money. And like I said, I wouldn’t trade any of that time for anything.
After 21 years in the service I can say the last 4 assignments left me with a feeling my personal belongings (household baggage) had been scattered like a hurricane. Some were in temp storage in one state; other stuff was in another location; some items were never found. Moving every two years was part of the job, I wouldn’t trade it for anything. As one of hundreds of thousands of veterans, we each proudly served our country. This debate of “who is a veteran” is just political dribble………….we know what a veteran is.
One of the important things to note about this incident is how Rep. Gilbert didn’t just make a single, off-hand remark. He went on a long-winded, ranting tirade about how Mr. Pierce is not a “real veteran,” up until the point where the committee was trying to take a vote. He just would not quit. House Chair Kerri Prescott had to gavel him out of order and bring decorum back to the proceedings.
David Sorenson is the press spokesman for the Maine Republican Party.
You mean a legislator had the audacity to point out that the committee might be violating the law.
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Oh the horrors!
Active duty members are veterans. Guard members are not. It is very straight forward. I served 4 years in the active duty military, but not in war time, and I struggle with calling myself a veteran, though the VA says I am. I certainly won’t be marching in any parades.
That’s just plain factually incorrect. Guard members are most certainly veterans whether they are ever activated or not. It’s codified in law all over the place. The definition the writer used was for federal hiring preferential status, a very specific purpose. Guard members are eligible for membership in the congressionally-chartered veterans organizations. And you shouldn’t struggle with calling yourself a veteran either, provided you were honorably discharged. Combat experience isn’t required to be a veteran.
It’s a reasonable question to ask. This isn’t about Pierce, it’s about criteria. Be thankful there is pushback on LePage and his cronies.
I like your perspective.
What about the long standing struggle merchant mariners have from troop ship and munitions transport from WWI, WWII/Korea? Did they put it on the line? Of course they did/ Did they do their time, yep. But criteria disallows them benefits, rights and employment as veterans.BTW, I am a veteran, but there is a scintilla of “street cred” beyond the political. Maybe not the view many would like to hear, but nonetheless, it is ONE view!
Pretty hard to find a real veteran among the party of chicken-hawks, LePage did the best he could. Besides MHPC and Charlie Webster said he is the man.
What’s a “real veteran”?
In the 70’s things were different. The Guard ads used to state ” One weekend a month, and two weeks in the summer”.
To me, you did the time, you are a veteran, whether combat related or not. Reserves, NG, all the same. In the end after 20 “good years” (at age 60) you get a retirement check from Uncle Sam, not from the State. Even Guard and Reserves, you made a commitment (no matter how long the time), got discharged for it. Whether you got called up or not, you always had the chance to.
Now it’s more likely than not, but it’s still a risk.
Listen I don’t know who this Gilbert IS and don’t want to know. Way out of Line!!! At least Lepage got something right!!! If you Have a DD214 And you have a Honorable Discharge your a VET NO MATTER WHAT!!!!!!
Active Duty = Veteran
The citizen solider has help to make this country what it is today.
Sounds like Rep. Gilbert has an agenda. Serving in Panama? Army War College? Tough assignments
As a veteran I think Mr. Gilbert should not have raised this issue. Under the Federal definition of a veteran Mr. Gilbert may be right but Mr. Pierce wasn’t trying to claim that he was anyone other than who he really is. He was just nominated to serve on a board and unless you can think of a legitimate reason why he shouldn’t, then let it go. Everyone of us who have worn the uniform,at any time,and in any branch,should be proud of our service and if we can’t respect each other then how can we expect others to respect us.
“A National Guardsman is certainly no less of a veteran than any other soldier, sailor or airman,” Keschl said in the release.“
Hey Keschl…thanks for forgetting the Marine Corps.
The Corps is still part of the Department of the Navy
He forgot the Coasties too.
Well up until The Patriot Act, the puddle pirates were part of the Transportation Department. They technically weren’t funded by DoD. However, they get a 214, so we’ll include the shallow water sailors.
They do a lot of brave stuff, with an young troop in charge of a boat, a crew, and little supervision. I give them a lot of credit.
that they are, no questions or objections there.
Yes, but it’s not part of the Navy. It’s a separate service under the Navy Department. There are two naval services: The Navy and the Marine Corps.
their funding is part of the navy, they use navy corpsmen for their doctors
I’m not sure what you mean. If you’re trying to suggest that the Marine Corps is a service within the Navy, you are wrong. There are two uniformed naval services in the Department of the Navy: The Navy and the Marine Corps. The Marine Corps funding comes from the Department of the Navy, not the Navy. Each service has it’s own command structure. The Navy is headed by the Chief of Naval Operations (CNO), the Marine Corps by the Commandant of the Marine Corps; each reports to the Secretary of the Navy, who is the head of the Department of the Navy, and each is a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
The Navy and the Marine Corps work together, Marines sometimes serve in Navy units and vice versa. A good example is Navy Corpsmen (who are enlisted sailors and not doctors) and doctors serving with Marine units. When I was in the Marine Corps in the 50s, my radio company was attached to the Navy and our radio operators served in watch sections side by side with Navy radiomen. Years later when I was an officer in the Navy serving on a destroyer, we had Marine Corps electronic warfare specialists on board during certain operations off the coast of North Vietnam. Even though they worked with us, they were not part of our “ship’s company”.
Back in the Vietnam era, National Guard units were a rich kid’s draft evasion, with a waiting list for enlistments. The “NG” on their service numbers stood for “Not Going.” Those of us with RA or US service numbers sneered at them.
That has changed. The Guard has borne the brunt of recent wars, with multiple combat tours for each serviceman or woman. Different times . . .
That’s the way I remember it. In the late seventies with draft card burnings and fleeing to Canada, A NG recruiter came to our high school and gave his spiel handing out bumper stickers with “The Guard Belongs”. There wasn’t one of us that didn’t agree when everyone threw the sticker in the trash saying “that’s where it belongs!”
We knew it was a cop-out, but we all know it’s different today. Many ‘weekend warriors’ are now being called upon for combat.
Served in Panama and at the War College, what stellar attributes for someone to diss a vet no matter what branch or manner they served. As a retired USAF member from active duty for 20+ years I also would like to speak to the gentlemen about his claims. Times have certainly changed and use of guard and reserve staff has definately been front and center of late. Mr. Gilbert, are those men and women who have served in Iraq or Afghanistan any less a veteran becuase they were perhaps not full time active duty. Get a grip buddy and leave your liberal thinking out of the process here. Panama and the War College, give me a break.
You need to learn to read. No one is saying that current guardsmen, who are being sent into war zones, are not Veterans. The question is ONLY about those who were in the gurads during the years when it was the #1 way to AVOID going into comabt.
Sounds to me Rep. Gilbert was respectful and appreciative of the nominees service as I am but was right in stating that the nominee was not considered a veteran under the US definition. I believe Gilbert was right that with all the men and women that have served this county LePage could have nominated someone else to satisfy the US definition of a Veteran. Perhaps no one wanted to service under LePage? I wouldn’t.
And so was liberal Bill Clinton, but I don’t hear you saying anything about that!
clinton was in college, which exempted him from the draft.
BS! You know he did that on purpose to get out of the draft. If you can’t admit that, then you are a dumb liberal who will believe anything!
So…what about LePage and others who were in college too? Did they all go to school to dodge the draft? Or is draft dodging only a liberal pursuit?
He could have done like that ultra Conservative, Ted Nugent and pooped his pants at his physical!
I wonder how Nugent escaped. His lottery number was 163. The highest number called was 195. That fine patriot Rush Limbaugh is another escapee from the draft. He was disqualified from military service because of a pilonidal cyst, a cyst on or near the cleft of the buttocks. I don’t know how true this is, but it certainly is funny.
you agree that Paul LePage was a draft dodger.
That’s different. Clinton’s a Democrat.
Um, WRONG!
Student deferrment, like war criminal Dick Cheney.
I served 24 years on active duty 1971-1995 and I do remember that in the early 70’s the NG was considered “weekend warriors” and maybe a 2 week summer camp . Those of us that served during the Vietnam era did not consider members of the NG real members of the military during that time. This thinking was also at the very highest levels in the Department of Defense. I can understand Mr. Gilbert’s thoughts on this but the NG has changed so much the past 20 years being deployed to several war zones and dying for their country like many active duty members. So readers, although Mr. Gilbert has made many of you upset you need to remember that in the early 70’s the NG especially most of did not deploy to any war zones and many today still haven’t. I myself have an issue with them being called Veterans UNLESS they have served on active duty. During my deployment during the Persian Gulf War we had a NG company c0-located next to us and they did nothing but complain and what I heard most say is”I didn’t sign up for this”_ _ _ _. So with this being said , let it be noted.
Gov lepage was outraged??
I wonder which branch of the Canadian military he served in?
None. They have standards.
Regarding the Gilbert comments: Look . . I served two tours in Nam and served with members of the National Guard who got activated and sent to Nam. These Guard members endured the dust, the heat, the incoming etc etc JUST LIKE THE REST OF US!
I hate this kind of crap . .the whole . .”what did you do in the war daddy”? As if what you did makes you more or less a Veteran.
National Guard members put on the uniform . .left family and friends behind . .and served with distinction in a place called Vietnam. I am proud to have served with such men!
Semper Fi !!
That’s right. Some National Guardsman were activated and sent to Vietnam, and some of them got trigger time, too.
…and the ones who were activated *are* veterans. The ones who have not been on active duty deserve our respect too, but for their service, not because they are veterans.
So I spent four years to the day on active duty from 1977 to 1981. I have a DD214, was placed on inactive reserve for two years after my honorable discharge, and used veterans benefits to go to college and a VA loan to buy my first home. BUT, according to this article, under ABC or D, I am NOT a veteran. News to me.
The glorification of war and those who wage it is not unlike admiring outlaws, I guess deep down we love a badass.
This issue is pretty much black and white. If you love your country enough to serve, whether we are at war or not, means that you are a veteran when you no longer serve..plain and simple.
It appears from some statements in the article and from reader comments about it that the core issue is clouded.
As has been pointed out by JessThinkin, Vietnam era members of the National Guard often joined because it was a way to avoid being sent to Southeast Asia, which was practically guranteed if you were Marines or Army. The Navy, Air Force, and even the Coast Guard (although in a significantly smaller proportion) fought the war, but not the National Guards.
Note the qualifying federal definition of ‘veteran’: “(A) served on active duty in the armed forces during a war, in a campaign or expedition for which a campaign badge has been authorized, or during the period beginning April 28, 1952, and ending July 1, 1955”.
The National Guard exclusions are time specific. The distinction between Vietnam era National Guard members amd those more recent National Guard veterans, who clearly meet the criteria to be called a ‘Veteran’, is not being articulated. It should be.
Are we making a distinction between Veteran, Wartime/Peacetime Veteran and War Veteran?
“Disagreement heats up between lawmakers over definition of ‘veteran’”
If he lives on the street, limps and walks about with a vacant stare, there’s a good chance
he’s served our country with honor.
The humble Farmer
God Bless YOU
I am a veteran and did 7 years in the active army and two combat tours to Iraq and I worked for A LTC who was civil affairs army national guard detachment out of new york he was so professional he went to bat for me on several occasion in Iraq he was the best boss i had out of the whole seven years i was in. So what Rep. Gilbert contends is outrageous we both have to go through the same standards in basic and AIT the only difference active duty does it full time and National guard does it part-time. But in war time they have two masters to answer to the civilian
employer and the military one. Some National guardsmen have come back to not having a job even.
If you doned a military uniform and were paid for doing so by the government…you are a veteran.
This is just they way Dem’s think. Mr Gilbert thinks his service counted more than Mr Pierce’s. I disagree.
I had 21 years active duty by the way.
Gilbert didn’t make many new friends with his take on what a veteran is … I think everyone who served in the military in any capacity is a veteran… there is always the possibility that you would get
” called up” you are not a veteran if you never entered the service..
Why in the world when the Feds already defined it Maine has to make their own law to define the same thing? This is what makes things confusing and unnecessary questions come up. A word is not supposed to be up for several definitions.
Not necessarily. A single word – like “veteran” – can have various definitions. It can be defined one way, say, for a federal statute on veterans’ disability benefits and another way for state property tax exemptions. It all depends on the purpose of the statute and who the drafters want to benefit.
Probably????
What is a Veteran?A veteran is defined by federal law, moral code and military service as “Any, Any, Any”… A military veteran is Any person who served for Any length of time in Any military service branch.
What is a War Veteran?A war veteran is any GI (Government Issue) ordered to foreign soil or waters to participate in direct or support activity against an enemy. The operant condition: Any GI sent in harm’s way.What is a Combat Veteran? A combat veteran is any GI who experiences any level of hostility for any duration resulting from offensive, defensive or friendly fire military action involving a real or perceived enemy in any foreign theater. What is a Combat Veteran? A combat veteran is any GI who experiences any level of hostility for any duration resulting from offensive, defensive or friendly fire military action involving a real or perceived enemy in any foreign theater. A veteran is defined by federal law, moral code and military service as “Any, Any, Any”… A military veteran is Any person who served for Any length of time in Any military service branch.
What is a War Veteran?A war veteran is any GI (Government Issue) ordered to foreign soil or waters to participate in direct or support activity against an enemy. The operant condition: Any GI sent in harm’s way.What is a Combat Veteran? A combat veteran is any GI who experiences any level of hostility for any duration resulting from offensive, defensive or friendly fire military action involving a real or perceived enemy in any foreign theater. What is a Combat Veteran? A combat veteran is any GI who experiences any level of hostility for any duration resulting from offensive, defensive or friendly fire military action involving a real or perceived enemy in any foreign theater.
As I noted elsewhere, there are likely many opinions about it. But in this case, it is a matter of a definition found in Maine law. It is that definition that must be followed, not anyone’s opinion.
FWIW, Maine law gives a Veteran’s Exemption for Real Estate tax purposes only to those age 62 and older (unless 100% disabled in the line of duty) who served on active duty during a Federally recognized War Period. Service in the National Guard does not get you the Veteran’s Exemption.
A good example of how statutes can define “veteran” differently for different purposes.
This is one of the difficulties in reading statutes. In general, a definition only applies to the chapter in which you find it.
Being a representative in an auxiliary veteran’s organization – I for one and quite tired of this argument. There are veterans, and combat veterans – but they are ALL VETERANS!
hmmm, I wonder why I have veteran plates then. I was in for 4 years. Just not any of those dates. I had to show my DD214 to get them.
At the risk of upsetting those who believe that a National Guard member is a “veteran,” I offer this combat Marine’s opinion. Today, the Reserve forces including the National Guard serve in combat operations in Afghanistan and Iraq. They are veterans in every sense lof the word, because they serve in harms way and deserve the recognition of the tittle, veteran. However, when the Vietnam war raged in Southeast Asia, the National Guard stayed home and did two week training stints. They got out of the blood and mud and enjoyed fresh water, housing, and food regularly. We, those in combat, were thirsty, hungry, living in mud, and dying daily. That sais, the National Guard was nothing like full time military. I’m a one hundred percent disabled Mafrine Corps veteran. I continue to suffer the wounds of war daily. I’m a veteran and those who fought next to me are real veterans. The Governor of Maine continues to behave like he actually did something during the wars America has fought. He continues to be a political fool and the voters of Maine need to weake up.
Thanks for your thoughts and your service.
I truly want to thank you for your service, but….. I too know a little bit about LBJ’s little police action. The fact is that “I had” a lot of family that went to Viet Nam, mostly Guard & Reservists, but my father was a full-time Marine, and he didnt go. It turns out that the majority of American forces over there were Guard & Reservists.
When I went in, I was in the Guard, I got my service ribbon, but refused to wear it because I never got to go overseas.
I have a buddy that was a Navy Reservist, he was off the coast of Viet Nam, never went ashore, but got hurt loading munitions around on a deck of an aircraft carrier- he is getting skrewed by Obama, and not LePage…
This is like an argument over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin…
Why aren’t we asking the more basic question:
What does being a veteran have to do with being qualified to sit on the Finance Authority?
Anyone that thinks that a National Guard or Reservist is not a Veteran is the lowest form of life on this planet-
And for those history failures, Viet Nam was fought by mostly Guard & Reservists-
It wasn’t. It was fought largely by draftees.
I’ll be sure and tell that to those in my family (National Guard & Reservists) that earned a headstone over there
Nice spin…. Are you still spinning? There were more Philippines troops that saw service in Nam then there were Guard and or Reservists. Why do you think so many Republicans asked mommie to get them into the Guard? Don’t bother responding you would probably try to tell me potato is spelled with an “e”.
I’ll be sure and tell that to those in my family (National Guard & Reservists) that earned a headstone over there
As a Vietnam Vet, 2 tours, I remember we used to call
the Guard the weekend warriors. But when I was medevaced
from Nam to Bethesda Naval Hospital, it was those weekend warriors
who flew me to the Chelsea Naval Hospital. As far as I am concerned,
they wore the uniform and did the jobs that many of us were not
here to do. Some Guard folks did make it to Nam and as far as I am
concerned if they wore the uniform, they served.
The same preference was given to National Guard during the mail strike. In the NYPD, offiicers were given promotional points for activation during the mail strike. I was a Police Officer, at the time, I was offended by officers who chose public service to avoid RVN. I saw many move up, based on the motive to avoid serving.
I know a guy that fractured his skull when he fell in bootcamp, and got discharged, he is considered a disabled veteran.
Semantics.
He also collects a check from the VA.
Gee, the good ole BDN is doing a lot of censorship lately.
I see the “foxes” are out in force trying to defend their “chickenhawks”. Just ask yourself why did so many Republicans have mommie and dadda help them get into the Guard and Reserves during the Viet Nam conflict???? Yes today things are different with the Guard and Reserves being “used” more and more in combat roles, but that is a relatively new phenomena. As a combat vet, with the scars and ribbons to prove it, I get pi$$ed that “Viet Nam” era vets are shortening their titles even more to just vets. If they wanted to get in line with me they should have been in the boonies with me. To me the only question that needs to be answered is did this guy serve active duty at any time during his stint in the NG? That is the criteria.
Give me a break. If draft dodging was a Republican v Democrat issue in those days, I would say there were a lot more Democrat than Republican draft dodgers, judging from the number of left-wing draft and anti- war protesters.
As a member of the American Legion as well as the VFW I find the comments strange that were quoted by the respective members in this story as Mr. Pierce is not elegible for membership in either of these organizations. If he filled out an application, he would be informed of this. I have nothing against him, nor do I really care who serves on any committee. I further agree with bandbox and libsux on their recollections of thse days. Guardsmen were viewed as “less than” by those of us who actually served in the military and experienced combat. If memory serves me correctly it was the general consensus of most people that folks who served in the Guard, were to scared to go to war (we all were scared) or were connected. Guys who enlisted or were drafted and stayed here in the Big PX were respected as they could have been sent in harms way at any given moment. On a personal note, I find it somewhat funny that now these guys now hide behind a flag to attain personal and political gain, but stayed “in the rear with the gear” when their service was really needed. It was certainally a different world.
If you don’t like the definition of a veteran, change it.
I’m a retired reservist, with 14+ years of active duty. I was mobilized overseas twice after 9-11. I’d love to be able to wear a unit patch on my right shoulder, but the definition says I have to be in a defined combat zone. Does it diminish what I did, of course not. But I didn’t earn it, by the definition.
People need to realize that it was a toss of a coin as to which Artillary unit went to Vietnam-between New Hampshire and Maine. This is besides all those who were in any of the three wars in the Middle East.
BDN needs to look at the poll results….looks like the % figures are reversed
How sad that a congressman trIE to demonize those of us that served honorably. I was in the guard for 26 years with no break in service. Like my brothers and sisters in arms, we gave up many a weekend to serve and protect. Then comes Monday morning to my civilian job. I worked harder for two days than I did for a whole week, and I was never lazy at either position. The legislator owes a great deal of gratitude to all of us. I did a search on this gentleman and not once did it show that he has ever served in the military, so he has no idea what us guardsmen had to endure. Again, he needs to publicly apologize to all of us who have served honorably to protect him and others. GO GUARD!
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