SACRAMENTO, Calif. — A Christian legal group urged a federal judge on Friday to halt a landmark California law that bars a controversial therapy aimed at reversing homosexuality from being used on children and teenagers, calling the law a violation of privacy and free speech.
California’s Democratic Gov. Jerry Brown signed the ban into law in September, making the nation’s most populous state the first to ban so-called conversion therapy among youths. Gay rights advocates say the therapy can psychologically harm gay and lesbian youths.
“What we have here is the state coming into the doctor-patient, client-counselor relationship and saying that you can only present one viewpoint,” attorney Mathew Staver, the dean of the evangelical Liberty University law school, told the court in seeking an injunction to halt the law pending legal challenges.
He was arguing on behalf of the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality and the American Association of Christian Counselors, as well as unnamed individuals who sued shortly after the law was signed.
The law, due to go into effect on Jan. 1, bars therapists from performing sexual-orientation change counseling with children and teenagers under 18 and was supported by the California Psychological Association among other groups.
Passage of the law marked a major victory for gay rights advocates who say the treatment, also called reparative therapy, has no medical basis because homosexuality is not a disorder.
Lawyers for the plaintiffs in the case argue that the law violates constitutionally protected rights to free speech and freedom of religion, and denies the rights of parents to choose how to raise their children.
Attorneys for the state were joined by lawyers from Equality California, which was a sponsor of the bill, in arguing that there is substantial evidence that the practice causes harm to those who undergo it.
The judge in the case, Kimberly Mueller, expressed concern during the hearing that banning licensed practitioners from offering the therapy would only drive parents to seek out the treatment from “unlicensed quacks” or out-of-state providers.
She said she was likely to rule next week in the case, filed against Brown and other state officials. Another similar suit seeking a separate injunction against the law will be argued in federal court on Monday.
Freedom is about choice. I support a woman’s right to choose abortion, so I would be a hypocrite to deny parents the right to choose alternative treatment for their children.
How far down the slope of allowing the State to usurp parental rights and responsibilities do we go?
Do you also support the freedom of people like Bernie Madoff to sell pyramid scheme bonds?
They are both fraud.
I support Bernie’s right to say “I plan to defraud you, if you give me your money.” and then take the money.
I support your right to educate people on this, and any other subject you feel strongly about. I am about creating choices, not making them illegal.
Since this is a “treatment” I presume it would fall under some kind of oversight by the medical ethical standards laws. We don’t allow quacks to practice medicine. I doubt this should be allowed, either. We are talking about kids here and torturing them to be something they will never be will have profound effects on them later in life.
I would think that all we have to do is to look at the history over the decades for this kind of “treatment” and see its utter failures and how badly the outcomes have been.
We don’t have snake-oil salesmen any longer and there is a good reason we don’t.
This kind of treatment is scary and disturbing. One would expect decent and good people to reject it totally.
Sadly, good people are hornswoggled by religious carnival barkers. I have seen the results first-hand. It is sad, unfortunate, and unnecessary.
Nothing religious about my comment.
This is about freedom and choice, which the LGBT crowd agrees with ONLY when it serves their interest. Many folks say that the unlicensed “therapy” of the A.A. program does not work. That it is dangerous to allow non-licensed people to “counsel” folks to a different life style.
I would agree that the patient should consent to the treatment, and that without that consent the treatment can not continue, but to say it should be disallowed by law in all cases (only in California BTW) is in the same league as those folks with the signs in front of abortion clinics. Choice was the hallmark of our republic. Seems that both the nutty left and the storm-trooper right have forgotten that.
I still disagree. We are speaking about children and teenagers, not consenting adults. There is a difference between A.A. therapy (which I have never heard anything but good words about) and treatment that has the potential to cause actual harm, as is the case with this conversion therapy.
It is not only the LGBT community objecting to this form of quackery, but reputable medical and psychological associations who debunk this foolishness.
You also have to look at the motives here. The people behind this therapy are not medical professionals seeking the best outcome for their patients. Quite the contrary. They are religious-backed and religious-based. Show me just ONE neutral group that supports this and believes it will help a patient, and that does not have a copy of a bible in their hand, and you might have a valid argument. The “choice” you so covet is anything but that for the victims. It is coercion by intimidation.
It is just mental snake-oil.
How do you feel when Christian Science parents are tried for murder of their own children because they sought only Christian Science “practitioner” care and not medical care? Or put another way, when Christian Science parents allow their children to die from treatable disease? Parental right to do so? Going to argue that this is different because gay teens are not in mortal danger?
“San Francisco State University found that “compared with LGBT young people who were not rejected or were only a little rejected by their parents and caregivers because of their gay or transgender identity, highly rejected LGBT young people were more than 8 times as likely to have attempted suicide, 6 times more likely to report high levels of depression, 3 times more likely to use illegal drugs, and more than 3 times more likely to be at high risk for HIV and STDs.”
The state is our enforcer of community standards. Parents who put their children at high risk of harm should have their parental rights restricted.
Same reason why parents are not allowed to use prayer for cancer and watch their child die. it is proven to be harmful.
Determining the efficacy and risks of alternative treatments is not in the hands of consumers. Consider medicine and therapy as controlled products.
Anti-gay religious cults that imprison and torture innocent kids.
Hope the ban is upheld.
Yessah
With the ban on “sexual orientation change counseling” now
in effect , I wonder how the “transgender” types will get
the therapy that many of them need as well ??
Seems like they have been left out.
Thats not fair.
Interesting point but I believe the law is aimed at those so-called professionals who believe you can cure homosexuals with their dubious methods. methods.
and if someone truely believes the methods help should not be stopped. More communism at its best.
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Again, it has been proven to be harmful. Like shock therapy. If a child has problems there are appropriate ways to help them. If there only issue is they may be gay and it is addressed harshly they will be damaged.
It’s not communism Bruce..Homosexuality is not a disease and it can’t be cured by quacks. Period. Anyway I doubt you could define communism.
Communism??! You are sadly uneducated.
The practice of medicine and therapy is restricted to licensed professional because patients are very often too desperate, misinformed, or out of their element to make anything approaching a reasoned decision. How many quacks have we dealt with over the years peddling false cancer therapies? How many snake-oil salesmen have we seen on TV? How many companies like Equinox or Amway have we had to sic the police on before they stopped making false medical claims for their products? People will believe anything if emotionally compromised and homosexuality is notorious for it. I can vouch for that one first hand. I see this case as being one of responsible practice vs. quackery. Let it be decided accordingly.
Quite a few of us have benefitted from reparative therapy techniques to help us achieve our personal goals and potentials. This by no means Is me telling other people how to live, but I’m just saying I appreciate having had the opportunity to have been exposed to such knowledge as it helped me where I wanted to get to and resolved my personally unwanted same sex attractions. Doesn’t mean I’m no longer friends with gay people. Each to their own. I only wish I could have started my journey younger rather than waiting till my mid 20s.
Please get back to us in ten years, or sooner, and let us know how that worked out for you.
It wouldn’t kill you to be happy for people who have achieved /are achieving their goals even though they aren’t your goals.
It is not my goals, one way or the other, that I question.
I have had too many years of working on a counseling hotline. I cannot say I have ever seen anyone achieve success in this area. If anything, it is repression of deep-seated desires.
I see far, far more people finally get to a certain age, realize their attempt at becoming straight did not work, and finally accept the reality of their lives. I see this many times after the kids are grown and out on their own. The husband and wife now are alone and together and realize they don’t really have a lot in common. This often happens in straight couples, too, but quite often in the gay married men. You should Google “Gay Married Men’s Association” (GAMMA). Very large group with lots of chapters around the world.
What I find unfortunate is that both partners end up hurt or traumatized. The gay partner usually quickly finds a support group. The straight partner does not so often find much support. And, for the woman, it often is tragic. She gave her life to raising kids and having a family, and now her husband runs off to be with the boys. I cannot begin to tell you how many times I personally have seen that. The wife is hurt, embarrassed, ashamed, and now alone with few prospects. I hardly believe it fair to the straight spouse.
Perhaps, yours will be the exception. And, sincerely, good luck with whatever path finds you.
The transgender community has often been linked with the gay community but it really is a separate matter. I agree there needs to be more counseling and treatment resources made available for this group that are in line with the DSM and the current medical/psychological findings. The religious crowd simply wants this quashed, too.
How come transgendered teens are allowed the opportunity to become who they want to be but teens with unwanted same sex attractions are not and are told they just need to ‘accept’ themselves as they are. If you said that to a trans teen you’d be accused of insensitivity. If I told Gregory Gorgeous that he needed to simply accept he was a guy and just get over it, I’d get slapped silly.
yea and gay groups that force their beliefs on kids.
Read your bible and stop talking about things you clearly know nothing of.
I, as a gay woman, would NEVER wish a child to be gay as long as there are people like you in the world. I would not want any one to go against their natural desire for love because I know how it feels. I tried to live heterosexual for years. It was torture.
Bruce, if you had a second brain it would be lonely.
Bruce has a brain. He just didn’t bother to use it in this case. His contempt for gay folk did all the processing he required. The gray matter never even got called.
Actually too many pro-gay groups indoctrinate and harm children. Remember the “little black book” being passed around by gay advocates in schools not too long ago–truly sick stuff! It is the pro-gay groups that are harming children and continue to poison our society with lies. And what is worse, deep down those who practice homosexuality know it is unnatural and immoral–they just choose to ignore their conscience and God.
Your statements have no actual facts to back them. I work in a school and you are an insult to the education system. NO GAY GROUPS indoctrinate children. i was raised by heterosexual parents in a heterosexual world and I am gay.
You could not be more wrong.
Melora your statements approach hysteria. If such a “little black book” was distributed by any recognized organization for gay advocacy in any number of schools it would have been national news with tremendous consequence. Furthermore deep down I do not consider my homosexual orientation to be immoral in and of itself although anyone, gay or straight, may behave in an immoral manner. As far as unnatural is concerned, I can only say that nature does a lot of things that are not preferred. The best you’ll do in that vein is to say that homosexuality is a relatively minor stable defect. I can think of a lot worse. As for God … well he and his various holy books do not decide court cases about the efficacy and risks of psychological therapies. He does, however, decide how well you either served or attacked your fellow man this day. To be honest, it’s not looking good for you.
This if the first I have heard of at a “little black book.” Please let me know where I can get a copy. I’d like to see what all the talk is about.
…….
How do these “professionals get certified anyway? I’ also look into those “professional” associations. I agree that desperate, misinformed family members may seek out those even more like quacks, but they could be prosecuted as well. I hope the law stands.
I think it would be a big mistake for people to consider these quacks “professionals”. But many times people latch on to the most crazy , extreme things. It only leads to trouble.
The correct statement is how do these judges stay in power–they clearly do not uphold the values of American freedom. Those who disagree with the said therapy are free to avoid it. Those who feel it may actually help can try it. That is American ideal. But this judge is going against that.
You cannot abuse children and call it therapy. It has been proven to be harmful.
We draw lines at medicine and therapy. These practices are governed precisely because those who seek them out are likely to be compromised in their decision-making.
Crapola……
I think these people who are so involved in this so-called conversion therapy are beyond uninformed and ignorant. I think they are mostly right wing extremists. Control freaks. Maybe they should find something worthwhile to do. I sure hope this ban is upheld.
Truthfully, they are a lot of things. I met a few in my time and not by accident. Most were kind, well-meaning individuals who were absolutely convinced that a homosexual life was no life at all. They prove the old adage that the road to hell can be paved with good intentions.
Insane and scary. It’s the equivalent of ‘heterosexual’ conversion therapy. A true mad scientist’s nightmare.
so schools can push a homosexual agenda, teach about homosexuality, and make it an everyday term, but another group can’t teach about the opposite?
seems kinda one sided.
There is no scientific basis for their conversion therapy. No acceptance by the medical field. It even lacks common sense.
There is no homosexual agenda, any more than there is a Hispanic or black agenda. The teaching of life, cultures, and diversity, in public schools exists to inform students how the real world works. We have all kinds of people in the world from Albanians to Albinos and Gays to Guatemalans. When I was in school, we were taught all this, including homosexuality and the gay rights movement, and that was in the 1970’s in a public school in Maine!
Here we are, 40 years later, and you want the kids to be taught that only WASPs exist and the world is flat. We live in a global world today. The kids need to know there are other people, cultures, and time zones. Heck, there are other planets.
We are no longer heads-down in a whites-only never-existed 1950’s world where there was “us” and “them.” Now, thankfully, and hopefully, we all will be “us.”
Chuck, do you get the feeling of banging your head against a wall trying to reach these people? I’ve seen your posts many, many times when ssm was being discussed and have tried to get through to some of these folk who seem to defy logic and do what their church tells them. Damn, it’s like howling at a hurricane. I don’t like to call them idiots, bigots or whatever but it’s becoming to easy now. SSM passed and these sheep still think they’re right in condemning those who don’t conform to their beliefs no matter how wrong they may be.
Well, actually, yes, I do feel that way at times. I have a psychologist friend of mine and often get a chance to “talk shop” over a few drinks. We are interested in each others fields. I asked him one day about this issue of illogical behavior. That is, in the face of irrefutable evidence, people still cling to whatever belief they happen to have. They don’t believe in Santa Claus, the tooth fairy or the Easter bunny, but they believe there is a guy floating around in the clouds in a toga, concerned about your every move.
I continued and asked him about the narrow scope of their views. For example, there are about 6 billion people on the planet. About 1/3 are Christian including all the denominations, 1/3 are Muslim and its variants, and the other third are all the other religions including atheist and agnostics. That’s the general breakdown.
I have been told by too many people that their particular religion is the only “true” religion – all the others are fake. I asked a Catholic woman who is convinced the Catholic church is the only “true” church about the other 11/12ths of the population who is not Catholic. “So, 11/12ths of the planet will burn in Hell?” And, of course, her answer was “yes.”
All of this is completely illogical to me, of course. I asked my psychologist friend about this strange behavior. He told me that I was expecting logical behavior from people who are illogical. That is never going to happen. He hears it every day. He further explained that this sense of “community” and “wanting to have some higher authority to make their decisions for them” is a very strong human trait despite it being illogical and unrealistic.
One often hears the phrase, “Well, I am leaving that in God’s hands.” I asked if the word “fate” could be substituted for “God,” and he replied that no, not usually. These people seem to have to have some outside force or power to which they can hitch their wagon despite it making no more sense than the tooth fairy.
This really is not anything new to me – just more of a confirmation of what I thought even as a young kid.
All that said, I have accepted that people have these views and they certainly are entitled to them. I never have had any problem with any of that – on one condition.
That one condition is that they leave the rest of us alone. They can dance around a fire, burn incense, bay at the moon, beat their drums, and hop around on one leg – I don’t care. Have fun. It’s a free country. (This view is not shared by them, however. The rest of us “sinners” need to be “saved” by them whether we want it or not.)
Where the line is drawn is when they start messing with our secular laws and imposing their versions of their religious laws into our secular world. There is utterly no difference between them attempting to do that and the Muslims attempting to impose Sharia law into our secular laws. No difference. Of course, they would disagree – their laws, after all, are the only “true” laws.
And, here we are again, back to illogical minds. (sigh)
And, they ask me why I drink.
Your intelligent and thoughtful comments are always appreciated and sure shine a light when needed!
You are too kind. Thank you!
As a teacher, I do not teach anything but what is in the Standards given by the state.
Yeah, like the state throughout history has always been right. Consider all the Communist children in the world that are brainwashed on a daily basis. Same here except it’s all under the title of “politically correct”. Teach children that homosexuality is okay despite the fact that Darwin himself would negate that and it goes against all three major religions in the world–meaning God will never condone homosexual behaviors. Yes, one might suffer this condition but they should be offering it up as a cross, not glorifying it. Those who mislead children will be held accountable when they face God’s judgement–that is certain.
Huge difference between “PC” and communist indoctrination. Huge. And as for the validity of your indoctrination …
You seem to be obsessed with “communism.”
If I’m reading you correctly you would teach your gay children that they can only look forward to a life devoid of romantic love. Sounds a bit like hell to me and certainly nothing of which God would approve.
I have an idea. Why not teach one’s own religion in church and/or at home?
And, believe me, being gay is no cross to bear, as you imply. You can only be a victim of the dimwitted bigots if you allow them to make you a victim. I did not allow them. At an early age I realized these bozos preaching to me were dead wrong and lived in a fantasy land.
The real cross to bear is the religious fairy tales that belong in a outdated church and not in a public school.
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I trust you teach at least the Standards. I would hope you teach them more. Some of my most dynamic teachers in the 1970’s were those in government, civics, current events, and history. Even in English, we had great teachers that relayed stories about authors and the events of the times that affected the authors of the period.
If someone taught me “only” the Standards, I think the class would be quite dull. I would consider the Standards as the bare minimum.
It is one-sided. They don’t care of the schools indoctrinate children on a daily basis–even denying them the truth of moral issues and those who try to offer an alternate side to the subject, they deny. It is fishy and it is wrong.
That would be *your* truth on moral issues, not that of the rest of us, and not even the majority of us any longer. Leave the moral determinations to the parents, home, and churches. Teach reality in schools.
We do not teach anything other than the Maine State Learning standards. Homosexuality is not a factor in education.
Truth is one-sided and the homosexual agenda, if one exists, is simply about getting the truth out. If you are going to hate us, do it for what we actually are rather than for what slander has led you to believe.
Have not we been plagued with enough gay articles by the BDN as it is.
You love ’em. You’re always here.
Maybe you should restrict your news intake to Channel 7. Apparently they are happy to sanitize the news to protect folks like you from reality.
Well we’re all plagued by you and you’re still here…..don’t read and comment on anything you can’t comprehend….which should be just about everything.
It’s easy not to click on an article.
Yes, that is true Bruce. Someone has a preference for gay rights–so much so that they deny the Truth and keep people in the dark. It is truly shameful how the majority of the media are controlled by outside sources.
Your “truth” is based on faith, not fact. There is a huge difference.
That isn’t what is shameful. Your views,luckily, are being defeated more and more as time goes by. We just had a vote here in Maine, and the people spoke!
There are a lot of truths about this topic and few of them are easy. I suggest you ditch the hysteria and the protection of these blogs and sit down with a flesh-and-blood human being to talk about them.
Well, I certainly seen enough articles about drunken drug addicted criminals but I dont see you complaining about that.
Once again, don’t read them then! You are way too interested, in a very disturbing way. Tend to your own business.
How many articles are too many? How many are too few? The news goes where the controversies occur.
Counseling a child through a rough time or teaching them healthy ways to deal with life is one thing. Purposely telling them their perceived sexuality will actually drive them into one way or the other even if they were or were not gay in the first place.The vast majority of people who go through this are more damaged than ok. Exodus, the leading org in this type of therapy has now denounced it’s effectiveness and their last two leaders have left the org and came out.
Even the RCA which represents 1,000 Orthodox Jewish rabbis have come out against this kind of therapy. It is not therapy but fraud and abuse.
There is no reason to endorse quackery.
Homosexuality is NO different than any other disorder and those who have a therapy should be free to offer it in this country. It is very anti-American to try to stop therapy from being offered to parents or young men or women who freely choose to use it. Those who disagree are free to avoid the therapy but a judge banning it clearly violates moral freedom in my opinion.
Homosexuality is NOT a disorder, any more than heterosexuality is a disorder.
Please cite your source that homosexuality is a disorder. Otherwise you are lying.