HOULTON, Maine — The man accused in the brutal slayings of three people in Amity in 2010 was suffering from a delusional disorder when he committed the crimes, a defense psychologist testified Wednesday.
But prosecutors said that Thayne Ormsby was aware enough during the murders to have cleaned up the crime scene and then fled. They also presented a psychologist who acknowledged that Ormsby was not mentally healthy but that he did not have a delusional disorder and was not psychotic when he committed the crimes.
During the second day of testimony Wednesday in Aroostook County Superior Court, Dr. Kathryn Thomas, a psychologist who interviewed the 21-year-old accused killer and also completed psychological tests on him, said that evidence gleaned from those tests revealed Ormsby was suffering from a delusional disorder, a type of psychosis in which the sufferer feels that something is happening to them or around them when it really isn’t. Thomas said that she was “very certain” of the diagnosis.
Ormsby was convicted on April 13 in the stabbing deaths of Jeffrey Ryan, 55, Ryan’s son Jesse, 10, and Ryan family friend Jason Dehahn, 30, all of Amity, on June 22, 2010. They were found dead about 27 hours after the killings at the elder Ryan’s home on U.S. Route 1, according to police. All three died of multiple stab wounds. Ormsby also was found guilty of arson for burning Jeff Ryan’s truck after he stole it from the murder scene.
Before the start of the murder trial, Ormsby pleaded not guilty and not guilty by reason of insanity to the charges. Because of his insanity plea, Ormsby is being tried in two phases. The jury found Ormsby guilty during the first phase of the trial last week. This week, the jury is hearing evidence as to his state of mind at the time of the crimes. They will be asked to determine whether Ormsby was criminally responsible for his actions. The jury’s decision must be based on a preponderance of the evidence rather than on reasonable doubt as it was during the criminal phase of the trial. The burden also is on the defense to prove that he was insane.
Assistant Attorney General Andrew Benson cross-examined Thomas at length Wednesday about her diagnosis and challenged it based on several factors. He argued that Ormsby was aware of where he was and what he was doing when he committed the murders. He also said Ormsby knew what he was doing was wrong and that he could be caught for it. He went to the sink to wash his hands after the murders, took items from the crime scene that had his fingerprints on them and threw the knife used in the slayings into a bog.
Ormsby thought that Jeff Ryan was a “bad man” and that he was a drug dealer. No evidence supports that allegation.
Thomas said Ormsby believed that he was doing his job when he killed Jeff Ryan and that he killed the other two victims when it became obvious they would implicate him. She said Ormsby also thought he was making the world a better place by committing the crimes. She said that in his mind, the slayings would elevate his status as an assassin.
She also said Ormsby was “out of touch with reality,” “self centered” and had “delusions of grandeur.”
Thomas said it was Robert Strout who told Ormsby that Ryan was a drug dealer. Ormsby stayed with Strout and his wife in their Orient home in the weeks leading up to the murders, and Ryan was the father of one of Strout’s grandchildren. Strout reportedly also talked to Ormsby about his time in Vietnam and discussed killing people.
Benson countered that it was difficult to tell whether a person was suffering from a delusion or just believed something that was untrue.
During the afternoon session, Dr. Debra Baeder, chief forensic psychologist at the State Forensic Service, took the stand to refute the diagnosis of delusional disorder.
Baeder also conducted a psychological evaluation on Ormsby. She acknowledged that he was not mentally healthy because of his chaotic and traumatic upbringing. Ormsby was taken away from his mother and sent to live with his uncle when he was 12 years old because of abuse and neglect at the hands of his estranged mother, Maria Ormsby, who has been in court all week.
“He was immature and had a very fragile ego that needed to be fed by others,” Baeder told Benson. “That is owing to his childhood.”
Baeder said she believes Ormsby was not psychotic because of the “series of rational actions” he took after the murders, such as cleaning up the crime scene, burning his clothes and fleeing the state. She said that his allegations about Jeff Ryan were mistaken beliefs, not delusions.
She agreed that Ormsby felt his actions “would hone his skills as an assassin.”
Testimony will continue Thursday.
I do not buy into all the psyco BS. I am far from what they might consider normal. If a person has an accurate view of themselves you would be diagnosed as not normal Because most normal people tend to view themselves at better than they are. The whole myth about teaching self esteem . I never met a criminal that did not have a high opinion of who they are. The guy is nuts but should be punished just the same. Anyone who dose not go along with what society thinks is normal is not normal. Well lets take a look at history and I will tell you being normal is not always the right thing to do.
A person who has a delusional disorder can get through life without drawing much attention to themselves. They tend to believe nothing is wrong with the way they think or function. They often don’t seek help because they don’t see anything wrong with the way they feel. Until they do something as bizarre as this they often go through life without being detected.
I will argue Most “normal” people are delusional. We all have different perceptions of things. Why did like 80% of the people in this country bought into WMDs In Iraq. Not doing a bit a research buying all the propaganda we are fed. If you ask 100 people on a scale from 1 to a 100 how smart they are very few will put themselves in the bottom 50% Well half of the people must be. Just saying most people are delusional. We tend to have biases and not want to see the world from a world view. Most people think thier religion is the right one. What makes thiers so special and they others not? My abstract thinking process make me not normal. I am wrong probably as much as I am right about things. My point is most people hard a hard time even accepting when they are wrong and just go with the flow. It takes all different kinds of people to make the world work . But looking at most evil done my mankind “normal” just go with the flow. Have the Bias to think they are right and just, doing it even when it is evil. If god told someone to do something by today’s standards they would be considered delusional. Questioning Authority is not normal.
*okay*
I believe in Santa . reindeer and elves . I guess that is only a bias. . That is the same bias that makes people believe in one religion over another. Tell me how it is any different?
Having a different perception of things is not the same as delusional. I think you are confused about what it means to have delusions.
And even then, just because a person is bizarre does not mean they get help. There still may be no help for them, only the loss of everything and their home. How does that help anyone? I would think that puts more people in danger.
That’s when family and good friends are needed the most.
Most people have a delusional disorder . They just do not go around killing people on thier own.
Where do you come up with “most people have a delusional disorder”??
Well it may not be classified as a disorder. Just saying we all hold beliefs that we feel are right. Some of them make no rational sense. We tend to want to believe what we believe is right. Any topic like global warming it you believe it caused by fossil fuels you may be right. But oil may not even be a fossil fuel. if your religious you think your is right and others are wrong . I bet if your christian you think muslums are wrong . if you were raised in a muslum country you would probably not be christian. Not saying one is wrong we all hold are beliefs. Ask 100 people on a scale of 1 to a 100 how smart they are. I bet 20 will not say below 50. That is not possible. Most people would give themselves at least 25 points. Someone that is not delusional is classified as having a disorder.
Those would be classified as character or personality disorders or traits. Entirely different from a “Delusional disorder” One connected to chemicals or genes.. The other experiences. Over simplified perhaps, but that’s the gist of it.
I will say, a personality disorder can be as debilitating as a mental illness.
I bet I have a personality disorder. Sometimes it dose not make me too popular . My MBTI type is a bit different . Just saying most “normal” people fall for the bystander affect . It dose not give me to high of an opinion of “normal people. Having stopped to help someone in a real emergency and seeing 100s of people just drive by. Someone that dose not pick up on social cues as well might not be normal but way more likely to help.
He’s delusional AND having delusions of grandeur.
Delusional disorder is pretty vague.A Psychotic episode is just that, an episode. Those suffering from Schizophrenia often suffer from delusions. as do other psychiatric disorders identified in the DSM. It’s really not clear by this article which direction they’re going.
So the only difference Is most people do not do something considered bizarre as this? I get it now . Being delusional is no excuse. Keep him off the streets . How many people who were arrested for murder kill again after they get out . I do not have the answer but I know it is far to many.
Your confusing self esteem with a defense mechanism. Not to many petty criminals with healthy high esteem. Just bravado and tough talk. false and intended for the others around them.
“If i rob this bank I will not get caught”. You hit the nail on the head with healthy self esteem. Too high misplaced, Not earned.
Someone who murders people in this fashion is not allright in my book. Im not saying he is not responsible but I dont think he meets the standard definition of mentally stable either.
Some of his statements to police investigators indicate he has delusions of grandeur or severe problems which allowed him to justify his actions.
Those same statements have led me to believe that there is a lot to this story that we will never now or not be told. Ormsby made statements indicating that he had very intimate knowledge of Ryan and other members of his family. He stayed with Strout, whose grandson was arrested for selling drugs in the area Ryan grew up in. Strout was father in law to Ryan. There are too many ways these people are connected to make this a simple ¨person gone mad¨killing.
maybe he was doing his job, i just wounder who is his boss????
Strout. Surely, Mr. Stokes has a game plan for when this part is over. Enjoy your time at home Strout.
Yes, this surely cannot be the end………
Indeed. I suspect we will not get the full story on this, except through the grapevine and that may not be reliable, either – there’s too many involved (three generations).
I saw “Bob” out in his yard (riding by), this morning.
It almost makes me sick every time I ride by there … and Jason & Crystal’s trailer – and Bob Dehahn’s home – and the Ryan’s trailer – etc., etc., etc. (sigh).
According to the Press Herald he was diagnosed with bi polar disorder.
He got a diagnosis! He’s one of the lucky one’s.
Not just the, you are fine, but someone out there is calling you crazy so you lose life, liberty, and property because court systems would rather be over cautious and put someone out on the street with nothing.
Who is the delusional one? The doctor misinterpreting answers, so you thought this. No, it’s a long story it happened over time….. The person claiming someone is doing something they are not, because the required instrument for such actions is not in their hands and the police saw otherwise, or the one labeled crazy, that not everyone understands, but can identify or fix computer or network problems that not everyone can understand?
a study after the fact has determined that he was “dilusional at the time of the murders” indicating the sufferer is feeling something is happening to him or around him when something is not……I can totally see where someone who just murdered 3 people would feel that way AFTER THE FACT – this determination is AFTER THE FACT!!! The evaluation is AFTER THE FACT PEOPLE!!!!!
I totlaly agree, I think there should be documentation stating that he had a documented illness at the time of the killings. I have Bipolar 1 with Command Voices to hurt others and it will make me so mad if this man goes to River view because I have a feeling I would end up in Prison if I were to do something like this while having command voices I have however been placed in the Psyc ward before, and I have a documented illness.
It is wonderful that you use your experiences with the illness to educate people and make them aware that there is a huge difference between the illness and the intent to calculatedly murder someone. I agree, it would be a slap in the face to every person out there who deals every day with a ligitimately diagnosed disorder such as Bipolar to send this man to River View for his poor imitation of it to get away with murder. People such as you that chose to educate are the reason there is greater understanding in society for such disorders and I admire your courage and sincerity Angela.
It’s good that Dr. Baeder, the state’s forensic psychologist, refuted the defense psychologist’s assertion that Ormsby has delusional disorder. Baeder’s discussion sounded well thought-out, and I hope her view prevails.
I’d say the jury is probably looking at this guy every day searching for signs that he’s insane. Yet he sits in his defendant’s chair in a nice suit looking well groomed. The jury is probably saying, “This is a normal guy. No way is he insane.”
Let’s assume that everything the shrink says is true. That by killing a drug dealer he was making the world a better place. He killed the child to get rid of a witness. That is not delusional, that is covering your tracks.
I absolutely agree with you, 100%–!!–Now this killer thinks he can play the part well enough to stay in a “nice hospital”, with his own drugs, and get away with murder!
nice hospital” you say, are you kidding. Either way he is gonna be locked up, this hospital is not that nice believe me, i transported enough people there to know that.
He may have been delusional at the time of the murders. Delusional if he thought he could get away with it. I don’t believe he had any delusions about what would happen if he were caught. He was caught now I really don’t think he should harbor any delusions about some easy years at Riverside. He needs to do hard time in Warren for the rest of his natural life.
I’m in the same field as Thomas, and her testimony is a perfect example of why so many people have little faith in psychology and/or psychological “experts”.
BDN, you need to do better reporting than this. She said much, much more than this; much of it highly questionable as it relates to her conclusons.
This is simply how court cases work. Go to any trial where medical evidence is being presented and you’ll find physicians arguing opposite sides of a case. One says a person has some terrible, devastating illness. The other physician says the person doesn’t have the illness or that it’s not so serious.
That’s right. It’s just OPINION testimony, and the jurors can give it whatever weight they want, like other evidence. They can reject it entirely.
I think the doctor would have some diagnosis to report on most of us after 8 hours of interviews and tests. So his mental health is less than perfect. That’s not the definition of insanity. What’s reported here doesn’t sound like she was making a strong case for him.
This poor soul needs help, not judgement. May Allah have mercy on you all.
What would proud_musslim do to him in the middle east
Ignorance at its finest, being Musslim means Im from the middle east…brilliant! Davis vs Goliath is a Christian Tale…Christianity stems from Jerusalem…so answer your own Question about the middle east, you’re right next door. Praise Allah and Peace be with you my brother.
May Allah have mercy on those who instigated 911. Are we supposed to have mercy on them too? Evil is evil & it exists, in all cultures & creeds.
It is not for you to decide. Allah Akbar
Do you know Skandor Akbar?
Do you know Danny_in_Malasia? Peace be with you brother.
you know what.in one of the recordings ornsby stated”maye the kids would e etter off without their fathers” well thats sick.and that”and maye the families will come together and be stronger and closer” HEs a sicko.he planned it.he knew what he was doing oviously.he tried covering up the evidence,killed the witnesses,and let alone killing three human beings. a 10 yr old boy……im sick just thinking aout it.he will pay.he does not need help.he needs to e punished.and Gods rath will come down upon him……he will pay.hes not insane.i think you need to stop worrying aout ppl judging and look at the big picture.if you little boy and brothers or something got murdered i think it would e a different story……just sayin…may god have mercy on you!
You are correct sir, he will pay. And in one hand you call him “sick” yet you say he’s not insane? You call him a “sicko” but not insane? You act as though I defend him, it is not for any of us to judge him, that is Allahs job. The big picture is that people spend too much time judging, isnt that what mr. Ornsby did, judge this family? I will pray for my brother, May Allah bless you and your family. Allah Akbar
Delusional, arrogance, and master assassin, scrambled together, spells life without parole.
As in so many cases in court today we do not know what happened. I suggest we let the courts sort it out. Can tell you this man will probably never be free again a day in his life. Semantics such as where he will spend those years is really all that’s at question.
Please, give me a break ! He has the awareness to make a ‘hit list’, track 2 of them down to a specific location, kill one of them in the trailer, kill a child witness to the murder while going outside to track down and kill the other intended victim to eliminate the unanticipated witness, chase the other intended victim down outside and away from the trailer and kill him, and then leave the scene, drive the truck he used into an empty field over 5 miles away and then try to burn it with any possible incriminating evidence in order to hide his crime. And this psychologist says he is delusional ? By what rational process does she make this decision when the criminal plan’s and commit’s 2 murder’s, then kill’s a witness in the process and then tries to hide evidence. This isin’t delusional. This is deliberate, planned murder. That he commited a 3rd murder, Jesse DeHann’s, in the process of committng the originally planned 2 just goes to show how deliberately he thought this out and reacted to unanticiapted circumstances. Delusion precludes logic and premeditation from being used. Ormsby did it and no amount of psychological rationalization or excuse is gonna’ make these 3 murder’s go away.
Psychology is a tricky thing sometimes…I guess bottom line I don’t care where he goes, as long as he’s locked up tight and can’t ever hurt ANYONE again…..
So what they are trying to say is, that normal people don’t commit tripple murders… Who would have guessed…
I truly hope normal people wouldn’t do this…
I think this man should be put away for life, How can the psychologist determine that he suffered from a mental illness 2 years ago and was dilusional at the time. of the killings. I have bipolar 1 and it is not uncommon for me to have command voices telling me to hurt others. I have come close a couple times and have ended up in the psych ward. Now if someone like me were to go through with killing someone while having voices, I can almost guarantee myself I would end up in prison because that’s just the luck I would have. I just don’t think its right that this killer try to go to Riverview just cause he doesnt want life in prison. I think there should be a law staing that you can only plead guilty by reason of insanity if you already have a documented mental illness.
This seems pretty typical for cases being tried in court. The defense had a psychologist examine Ormsby–that produced a diagnosis of delusional disorder. The prosecution has the state forensic psychologists. One of them examined him and determined that he was not delusional. Now it’s up to the legal system to decide which view is more credible. I’d vote for Dr. Baeder (state psychologist).
People will say anything for the right …???? well you get the point
Being delusional does NOT mean you are disoriented & unaware of your actions. A delusion is a false belief & alot of us go around with mistaken beliefs. He could have the delusion that he was the tooth fairy & that still would not keep him from being cognizant that killing 2 adults & a child, is wrong. He exhibited quite rational, oriented, logical behavior during the murders & after.The bottom line is- did he know what he was doing? YES. Did he know it was wrong? YES. did he care? NO
he knew damn well waht he was doing…he is far from delusional…makes me so damn mad…he deserves worse then what he gets
Funny how both sides can come up with a shrink that will support their arguments for a fee. Delusional or not, this guy earned his berth in Warren when he targeted a 10 year old boy. If our laws excuse actions like this because he’s defective, we need to change the laws.
He is doing what everyone does, go out and kill and than you use your get out of jail card, play crazy, or say mommy wasnt nice to me when i was a little kid.
I agree, he has to be out of his mind in some fashion to do what he did. But as rockycin states, he killed a child to be rid of a witness, that’s logical thinking in my world so put him in prison and come what may. Funny how everyone who GETS CAUGHT suddenly has a sordid past of mental illness and abuse.
PLUS, how can someone speak to him now and possibly speak to his past in such definite diagnostic terms? I think this little guy is way more clever and intelligent than he is letting on so he has figured out what he needs to say to get what he needs.
I don’t really have much experience with mental illness but when someone snaps out of their delusion wouldn’t it make sense that they would be horrified by their actions? After watching his confession video last week I didn’t pick up that he was even remotely remorseful for killing 3 people. The only thing he said was sorry isn’t good enough, he never actually apologized or wished he didn’t kill them. *sarcasm* Maybe he was still delusional……
DELUSIONAL , MY LEFT FOOT!!! What this guy needs is a dose of “As ye sow, so shall ye reap” or for those who don’t understand that “As ye would have others do unto you, go ye therefore and do likewise. I’d say that we have seen the “likewise”. The murder of a child is unforgivable.
he need to pay for what he has done to our familys … he is verry smart to keep changing what he has said over an over again… an yet nothing of what he has said could be claimed as insaine…
he is sick an should feel the same pain that he inflicked on jason jeff an jesse….