BANGOR, Maine — When the Rock Church gave up its Brewer location earlier this year, it seemed as if man had interfered with God’s plan to expand and grow the congregation.
On Sunday, Pastor Kirk Winters said that in retrospect, it looks like God was in charge all along and what seemed like a setback was really a push from the Almighty for the church to expand in Bangor.
“The city of Bangor has approved our building permit,” Winters announced at the 10 a.m. worship service. “Now, we’re waiting on the appraisal to come back so we can get the financing. Let’s all pray that these things come together this month.”
The congregation hopes to break ground in late August or early September on a 6,000-square-foot addition to its current building located at 1195 Ohio St. Plans call for the $613,000 structure to be completed by Christmas. It will include a 411-seat sanctuary with a state-of-the-art sound and light system, cafe, offices, conference room, nursery space and restrooms, Winters said Sunday. The plan calls for nearly $200,000 to be raised in an ongoing capital campaign and for the rest to be borrowed.
The new building will allow the church to hold two services on Sundays rather than four over a weekend, the pastor said. The current sanctuary seats about 150 and is packed during most services. Once the new building is finished, the older one will be devoted to the church’s children’s ministry, Winters said Sunday.
Winters, 44, of Glenburn founded the Rock Church in Bangor in 2005 and purchased the former Pentecostal church located on 10½ acres of land bordered by Ohio Street and Finson Road. The congregation grew so rapidly that within a year, Winters was conducting two crowded services on Sunday mornings.
By summer 2009, four services — one on Saturday and three on Sundays — were needed to accommodate everyone. That September, the church began renting space once occupied by Bob’s Discount Store in the North Brewer Shopping Plaza.
In January, the Rock Church applied for a permit to expand in the shopping center from about 4,500 square feet to 14,000 square feet because of an increased number of worshippers. Brewer’s code enforcement officer, who was not employed by the city when the church moved into the space, denied the permit.
A church is not allowed in the strip mall because of the city’s zoning laws, Ben Breadmore, Brewer’s code enforcement officer said in March, when the church moved out of the space and back to Bangor. Breadmore’s predecessor signed the original building permit for the church in 2009.
Dana Cassidy, the owner of the shopping plaza, in April sued Brewer in U.S. District Court in Bangor claiming that he has been harmed economically because the city’s land use regulations “treat the church unequally and discriminate against it on the basis of religion.” The case is pending.
The Rock Church did not sue the city, Winters said Sunday. The minister did have conversations earlier this year with attorneys in the U.S. Department of Justice about whether the city’s denial of the new building permit was a violation of the Religious Land Use and Instutionalized Persons Act.
“I spoke to the Department of Justice three times,” the pastor said. “‘You have a case,’ they said. I started thinking about how we could have a new building here debt-free.”
Before he went too far down that road, Winters said he remembered Paul’s letter in Romans 12:19: “Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God; for it is written, ‘Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.’”
The pastor and the leadership of the church decided it would be better for the congregation to put its energies into building for the future than seeking revenge for the past.
In seeking out a builder for the project, the church turned inward to Robert Perry of Hermon. He said Sunday he most often takes on residential and light commercial projects, but he did build the Islamic Center of Maine in Orono, completed in January 2010.
Perry attended services at Rock Church in Brewer for several years but now worships in Bangor.
“Once the new building is finished, I feel there will be a more cohesive feeling to the congregation,” he said Sunday. “We’ll feel more connected. I went to church in Brewer and now that we are here, there are people at different services that I’ve never met before.
The new building be a pretty simple structure with vinyl siding and an asphalt roof, Perry said.
“There are no bells or whistles but the building will serve the congregation’s needs with two services instead of four,” he said.
Winters said having four services has been a strain on staff and volunteers.
“We’ve also lost about 120 people since we left Brewer,” he said. “I can’t quite tell if that’s because it’s summer or not yet, but the new building will give us more room for growth.
Why don’t you save your money and talk to one of the half dozen failing churches in the area about taking over their building? There are churches all over town dipping into their endowments to cover heating costs.
the trend in American Evangelicalism is toward new, flashy, almost rock concert like church services. Old buidlings and organs are not popular among the younger crowd. Old churches do not have as good acoustics, the church on ohio street is old, but small enough to take acoustics into account.
Nationwide, the move is toward “storefront churches”, which the Rock in brewer was. Also is The Crossing in downtown, Bible Baptist on Hammond st, and until last year, there was a branch of calvary chapel that met in a gym in waterville.
Is this a trend or another fad? Sounds rather shallow and you’ve heard about the sower and shallow ground.
Oh and some old churches have excellent acoustics.
Time will tell. Let’s remember that congregations that are 100+ years old and are led by doctoral level, ordained pastors, are caving in, while these new designer churches, led by young husband and wife teams with sketchy educational backgrounds are becoming the rage. Let’s see where things stand in a few years.
God wants them to build new stuff apparently and not help others by taking over an old building and working with that.
Could you please provide clarification regarding “new stuff?” Why is a church not allowed to build or move to a location that will be more accomodating? As far as taking over an old building, the building has to be For Sale or available, correct? Why is there a social judgement that people of faith have to represent themselves as “poor?” Praise the Lord for a congregation that needs more space.
But shouldn’t these people, help one another, or see if they can? Does a building have to be for sale? No it doesn’t actually, I have seen many buildings and businesses get purchased if the situation is right. I don’t see here where the Church attempted to help others. I mean Churches want people to help them, so are they seeing if there is anyone else to help before they go ahead and spend at least $613,000? I could buy a building with that kind of money that is bigger and make any cosmetic changes.
The Social judgement comes in from my earlier comment here, the Church wants people or followers to give, give them money, offerings, tighting or whatever you call it. But instead of analyzing otehr options or “helping others” thinking outside the box, etc,outright spend the money to expand there instead. For a Church that is claiming so much growth, find a bigger building first, find some better parking too. If that church is growing at the rate it claims to be, it will outgrow its current location fast.
Since you ask-
1) After deciding to close the Brewer location the church staff explored all available real estate in the Greater Bangor/Brewer area before settling on the decision to stay at the current location on Ohio St and expanding on the 10 acres they ALREADY own there. Also, they have already invested 200K in past years to update the sewer system and parking lot as was required by the City of Bangor.
2) Existing churches- regardless of whether their congregations are dying or not- are very protective of their buildings and rarely want to part with their history. Furthermore, the typical mainline denominations that need help would simply refuse assistance from a thriving church like TRC Bangor because it means giving up “their” way of doing things.
Good questions, though. TRC Bangor’s main focus is always trying to figure out how to best help the surrounding community and reflect Christ to the world- so your points are well taken.
and that is my point is simply to ask and not criticize or insult a religion or belief. I consider myself neutral at the moment in trying to understand ones function or purpose when it comes to religion. Your points are well taken and I won’t argue with them, I can clearly see some view why they are doing what they are doing.
At the moment I hope my questions are taken seriously and not as an insult to anyone to better understand.
No problem.
In response to this- “I consider myself neutral at the moment in trying to understand ones function or purpose when it comes to religion. ”
I concede that the “purpose of religion” is a cloudy subject, but I can tell you specifically what Faith in Jesus Christ means… And while I’m not on staff at TRC, I am an active volunteer and can try to speak to TRC Bangor’s mission- and it’s simply to preach The Gospel of Jesus Christ to a world that needs to hear it- and that “world” includes our members. It’s that simple.
More on that here– http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tullian/2010/07/17/the-ongoing-need-for-the-gospel-2/
…And so what does that have to do with a larger building you ask? Well we currently hold 4 services a weekend to try and accommodate our attendees. 4 services is very taxing on volunteers. With the new building we plan to go down to 2 larger services. Furthermore, we have had people leave because they can’t find a seat. A person that leaves is someone that couldn’t hear The Gospel that day- perhaps a day that could have changed their life was just missed.
So why gather weekly and hear The Gospel and not just “go out and do good things” in the world? Well, we believe these things are not mutually exclusive. Good works are the fruit that grows out of hearing The Gospel time and time again so that we don’t forget the debt paid for us by Christ. To be Spirit led in THIS life means “doing good things” will be a natural result- and yes, the ultimate “reward” for this is in the NEXT life (ie, heaven). But while the reward awaits in heaven, it’s not the good works that get us there.
To simply live life and do good things just to make ourselves feel better, with no real reason for why we’re doing them other than for personal affirmation, ultimately leads no where- because the question will always be- “Without a Savior that’s already paid my debt for me, just how much good stuff do I need to do to pay that debt myself?” This answer no one knows… and thankfully, because of Christ, we don’t have to know. This is The Gospel- and you can hear it weekly at The Rock! (and I’m sure there are many other good churches in the area that preach it- and the ones that don’t are likely the churches in decline).
Because people of faith are commanded to build up their treasures in heaven, not here?
Why does a popular and growing congregation need to be subject of ethical judgement for their search of Real Estate for their new home? Why don’t you, “Bangorian,” move out of your home and into a decaying piece of property? Just because we follow the word of God, it does not diminish our common sense.
Lol word of god and common sense do not go hand in hand…
Restrooms are important.
awesome news, congratulations! I have not attended the Bangor location but have the Sullivan location. The message, music, feel of the church and the good people there are amazing!
Great, another tax exempt organization for us Bangor taxpayers to support. Raise the valuations Ben, Bangor needs the money.
The church is already there. has been
So, Ben Breadmore, Brewer’s code enforcement officer is going to burn in hell for all eternity? Ah yes, such a loving God you’ve got there. What a sham. The trend in the USA is that there are more self-described non-believers than ever before, so there is light at the end of the tunnel.
There is ZERO evidence of Gods, ghosts, demons, devils, souls, spirits, etc, etc… There IS evolution, that’s a fact. Believers should try it for a change instead of wasting money on attempts to indoctrinate our youth into serving a myth created by a bunch of goat herders.
There is also ZERO evidence that there isn’t a God unless your little pea brain understands the universe.The second law of thermodynamics says the earth is breaking down and everything deacys,not evolves. Species evolve in the fact that they adapt.There is NO proof any species has evolved into another. In other words, you may not be able to prove there is a God but also that there isn’t. Evolution has more holes than a sieve in it.
Please tell me about the 1st and 3rd law of thermodynamics, I bet you cannot. Christians and Creationists love to use the 2nd law argument but it has been debunked over and over and over.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/thermo/probability.html
The Second Law of Thermodynamics, Evolution, and Probability
Creationists believe that the second law of thermodynamics does not permit order to arise from disorder, and therefore the macro evolution of complex living things from single-celled ancestors could not have occurred. The creationist argument is based on their interpretation of the relationship between probability and a thermodynamic property called “entropy.”
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CF/CF001.html
Claim CF001:
The second law of thermodynamics says that everything tends toward disorder, making evolutionary development impossible.
Response:
The second law of thermodynamics says no such thing. It says that heat will not spontaneously flow from a colder body to a warmer one or, equivalently, that total entropy (a measure of useful energy) in a closed system will not decrease. This does not prevent increasing order because the earth is not a closed system; sunlight (with low entropy) shines on it and heat (with higher entropy) radiates off. This flow of energy, and the change in entropy that accompanies it, can and will power local decreases in entropy on earth.
Entropy is not the same as disorder. Sometimes the two correspond, but sometimes order increases as entropy increases. (Aranda-Espinoza et al. 1999; Kestenbaum 1998) Entropy can even be used to produce order, such as in the sorting of molecules by size (Han and Craighead 2000).
Even in a closed system, pockets of lower entropy can form if they are offset by increased entropy elsewhere in the system. In short, order from disorder happens on earth all the time.
The only processes necessary for evolution to occur are reproduction, heritable variation, and selection. All of these are seen to happen all the time, so, obviously, no physical laws are preventing them. In fact, connections between evolution and entropy have been studied in depth, and never to the detriment of evolution (Demetrius 2000).
Several scientists have proposed that evolution and the origin of life is driven by entropy (McShea 1998). Some see the information content of organisms subject to diversification according to the second law (Brooks and Wiley 1988), so organisms diversify to fill empty niches much as a gas expands to fill an empty container. Others propose that highly ordered complex systems emerge and evolve to dissipate energy (and increase overall entropy) more efficiently (Schneider and Kay 1994).
Creationists themselves admit that increasing order is possible. They introduce fictional exceptions to the law to account for it.
Creationists themselves make claims that directly contradict their claims about the second law of thermodynamics, such as hydrological sorting of fossils during the Flood.
Why you insist on distroying religon is beyond me.. I bet if you didn’t run around shoving your Atheitist beliefs at people they wouldn’t see your hate and leave you alone.. Being dissipointed when raised in a religious family has made you angry and bitter.. Let me believe and I’ll let you not believe. everybody will be fine.
I want to believe, I need to believe and am going to believe. You being an Atheist don’t need to believe. I bet at one time you had great spirtualilty and would have be a great church leader. Sorry it didn’t work out. I’m a Catholic
What does any of your rant have to do with me destroying their 2nd law argument?
God has never left you Kevin, God still believes in you.
Which god? There are over 40,000 of them.
“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”
…Stephen F Roberts
Reminds me……..
It is unfathomable, and indescribable, too big to name nor should have a name, but people personalized it and put a name to it, and called it god.
And you apparently don’t understand thermo.
Please provide evidence to back up your claim as Kevin has done so well. Where is the evidence that She has never left Kevin and she believes in him.
” I want to believe, I need to believe and am going to believe.”
Your imaginary friend is your security blanket and you won’t let any facts take it away from you.
How many times do you see Atheists going door to door?
How many jokes begin with, “Two Atheist walk into a bar…” or “An Atheist…” The “FACT” of being an Atheist is probably the joke and the punch-line.” As far as my “imaginary friend,” that “friend” is my “creator.” Do not blend your language and values with mine. He is not my “security blanket” my creator is my “Shield.” You with “security blanket” hide from God and the right to be strong. If you could, you would hire civil rights attorney and sue God because you use Atheism as a security blanket. We as Christians use the “shield” of God to be strong and powerful everyday. You sue for fairness. We command it.
So aren’t Christians supposed to be loving toward their fellow human being instead of telling someone they are a joke because they choose science over religion?
I think science and religion go and in hand, if you actually read the material.
I think Jesus was a scientist. To people of the area and time, he was a magician.
One man’s science is another man’s magic, or should it be one man’s magic is another man’s science?
The ‘shield’ of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
I see them at least twice a year. I kick em off my porch with a whole lot more vigor than the religionists. They work for the Maine Peoples Alliance.
I know several people who work for Maine Peoples’ Alliance and none of them are atheists.
How many catholics, jews, protestants or muslims do you see going door to door?
bigger question is, how many of the above mentioned does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
The only ones I have seen at my door have been protestants.
He wasn’t necessarily “destroying” religion (as posted elsewhere, not all Christians are Creationists, only a minority are). He is rfefuting (quite nicely I might add) the thermodynamic arguments against evolution and origins and for Creationism. Push, even Catholic schools teach valid thermo. Back to class for you.
You’re clearly an Agnostic which is nothing more than a fence sitter. You can decide on your own who you will serve or remain undecided and suffer the consequences. Suggest reading the parable of the Ten Virgins.
Also recommend http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=WDD7KGNX&utm_source=GodTube%20Must-See%20(PD)&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=08/10/2012
Why must you label people? How do you know he is agnostic? There are hundreds of thousands of church going Christians who believe in evolution rather than creationism.
They believe in evolution after they were created by a Creator.
I see nothing bitter, angry or hateful about his post. Just because someone chooses science over mythology doesn’t mean that they are angry or bitter. There is also nothing to prove one way or another that he is an atheist. He is providing proof to back up his belief system. There is nothing hateful about that.
In other words, life comes from compost, and life becomes compost.
Good post.
“Ashes to ashes, two twin beds …”
Kevin, thanks for a great, concise description of thermodynamics and refutation of the Creationist misinterpretation of it, especially the 2nd Law. One term in the energetics equations for all reactions involves entropy. Molecular cyclizations happen all the time, if favored energetically. Your point on closed systems is also important. Good job, A+.
Just one quibble, Kevin. Don’t lump all Christians in with the Creastionists. Many (hopefully most) of us don’t subscribe to the Creationist dogma, especially if we know anything about thermo.
How can you be a Christian and not be a creationist? Either God created Man, or Man created God. I think it’s pretty obviously the latter but…
A lot of Christians don’t believe everything in the bible but still have a great amount of faith in their god.
I understand that, kind of. Still, faith in a Creator makes one a Creationist. There’s no way around that.
As a fellow atheist I will have to disagree with you on that one. I understand your point but one can follow Christ and still not believe in creationism.
How?
A question of simple curiosity, why are the Atheist attempting to have a profound discussion on a topic they clearly have no knowledge.
More knowledge than believers have on the matter!
It’s No Surprise That Atheists Know More About Religion Than Most Americans
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/09/28/dave-silverman-pew-survey-atheists-bible-preacher-god-islam-holy-american/#ixzz23OMDBrYw
Because of the harm Christianity has caused and continues to cause. The Bronze Age dogma causes death and destruction, attempts to deny people (other than white males of course) basic rights, and overall has has a much more negative effect on society than a positive one. We have informed ourselves, and found out that Christianity has been weighed and measured, and been found lacking.
Most atheists have studied religion extensively and that is often the reason why they believe as they do.
Exactly. I gave up my faith for facts a long time ago.
I believe in the creative force of the universe that has made all that I see, hear, smell, touch, taste and feel. But I also believe in evolution because of the extensive research that was done by Darwin. He spent five years sailing around the world, taking extensive notes, collecting samples, making sketches. None of the authors of the books of the Bible had done any of this type of research and it is apparent in the writings that it comes from a very limited view of the world.
I’ve got to copy your post for future reference. That has got to be one of the best reasons I’ve ever read for rejecting the Bible. LOL
So you’re a Deist. Better than being a Theist.
Hey Kevin, you are the living “Wikipedia.” How many is “A Lot?” As far as a Liberal attempting to enlighten the audience of Christian values, he is lying. Christians believe the Bible word-for-word, line-for-line, page-for-page and chapter-for-chapter. Also, please be respectful and use a capital “B.” Bible.
So you are stating @Gopher40:disqus is not a real Christian? And no, I will not cap the bible or your god.
If Gopher40 does not believe the word of “God” within the “Bible,” word-for-word,line-for-line, page-for-page and chapter-for-chapter that does not “quantify” Gopher40 has a Christian. Unlike the misguided LIBERAL agenda, true faith requires dedication. Converse to your “NOTHING.” See Kevin, a classic example of living a value-system reflects consistency.
You know why faith requires dedication? Because your beliefs fall apart under critical thinking.
I am an atheist, I have principles and values, and I’m sure I’m farther from a liberal than you are.
Hey Kevin, just want to be clear. Should all “correspondence” for Gopher40 be presented to you?
Do you believe the earth is flat, as the bible implies?
Unless NASA has been operating one of the largest “conspiracies.”
You mean that fairy tale that has been the reason why millions of people over the centuries have been tortured and killed? Is that what you are asking to be respected?
If you read the King James version, it says god had no one to till the ground so he created Adam from the dust of the ground. Did he need/want a slave?
You know nothing, you know dirt. You are a piece of dirt. Doesn’t taking someone from the ground, dust, dirt up mean taking someone who knows nothing and teaching them something?
Probably taught him how to till the land and read and write etc.
Hence, we have bible, or a book, passed down from generation to generation starting with Adam? He may have been cast out, because he refused to live by their ways, take and eat from the tree of life, but they/he didn’t or couldn’t take his knowledge away.
That was just a bunch of gobbledygook. You think your bible is a factual account of reality. Why you think that, I have no earthly idea. It doesn’t make much sense. Especially when there are so many other writings by other cultures about the supernatural. You don’t think any of those stories are real.
The Bible is true because the Bible says so.
@Gopher40:disqus I do understand that not all Christians believe in the creationist dogma. I’m just used to debating with the ones that do and thank you for the kind words.
Entropy could not be chaos or disorder. In biology they teach that a drop of food coloring in a flask moves “in a seemingly random way”. Until the particles are equally spaced apart.
So why can’t things clump together, separate and clump to something else, on it’s way to eventually becoming equally spaced apart?
Go from an area of higher concentration to an area of lesser concentration, the law of motion, and then there are particle charges and affinity…. Etc.
no evolution for man. if there was there would be scientific proof, which there is not.
you don’t have to believe,
as for Ben Breadmore, he was doing his job. and this will work out much better. God had a plan for these people and it will be a reality. It will be much better there.
LOL!!! Are you serious?
Of course he is. He probably thinks Man walked the Earth at the same time Dinosaurs did too.
Nope I don’t believe man walked the Earth with Dinosaurs. We probably were placed here from another planet to save our race
Oh well then, that makes much more sense. I suppose you have some evidence of that wild claim also?
Sounds like Scientology.
Did God just put dinosaur bones in the ground to test your faith or did he create them during the six days of creation?
Day is derived from a word that also translates to a period of time. There is also a number scheme in the area in history where six was the max and seven represented infinity…… 7 days could mean in an infinite amount or unfathomable amount of time?
Six, six, six could mean max times three, or cubed, excessive greed or gluttony?
Wow. Doesn’t sound very Biblical.
Also, from another planet with the same biochemistry and sharing up to 98% of the DNA. Wow.
My apologizes for interrupting the conversation between you and Kevin, but I was awaiting your explanation of, “How unique the structure of the human voice-box is.” Just so you can step out of the Liberal Realm of “Nothing” and offer your individual insight. Scientifically, of course.
I already shredded that specious argument about our “magical” voice box. My post replied to yours. It began with “Sagan described himself as an Agnostic”.
Clearly you have stumbled upon a flaw within the superficial belief system of being an Atheist because my question has yet been answered. You interjected the word “magical” describing the voice-box. My question is as follows, “Science can not replicate and/or dupicate the human voice-box because it is so unique. There is no other creature on this planet that has this specific voice-box.” At the conference, science described this as a “marvel” because there is “no orgin for evolution.” Again, we are not referencing “communication” between dolphin:dolphin and so on. Using your centuries-old Atheist belief system, “How did humans acquire such a device.” Let us continue with baby steps, the example provided at the conference, “Through the process of training my dog, I became more intrigued that “sit” and “stay” became individual distinctions…”
The only one stumbling around here is you.
Your Religious conference, like your imaginary God, and your Bible written and re-written by men, mean absolutely nothing to me. They also offer no Science based arguments for a Creator.
Humans “acquired” their complex voice box through… Drum roll, please! EVOLUTION!
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129083762
Again, with the confusion of the misrepresentation of my personal belief system. You have the inability to organize “FACTS” of an argument than the ones you want to “BELIEVE” you understand. Why are you assuming the conference was “RELIGIOUS?” How can you declare that God is imaginary? What if “GOD” is the foundation of Physics? Why are you so steadfast to “BELIEVE” I am trying to declare the absolute foundation of my faith? A question for you, “If you believe in nothing are you an Atheist?” Truly, I can not believe that I am reporting information from the “Scientific Community” that states there is no correlation for the possibility for EVOLUTION and you are so unsettled that as a Christian I am more comfortable with Universal Anomalies than the Atheist. You are “representing” yourself as a hate-filled bigot, or by definition a “LIBERAL.”
You’re ~” reporting information from the “Scientific Community” that states there is no correlation for the possibility for EVOLUTION ~”?
What does that even mean? There is plenty of evidence for evolution, including human speech. You’re offering nothing to contradict that, except blatting on about some “conference”. Where is your scientific evidence that disproves evolution?
Now, don’t come back here with the long since de-bunked “irreducible complexity of bacterial flagellum” crap. Or, the already de-bunked in these very comments by Kevin, thing about a horribly misunderstood definition of thermodynamic law.
But, you’ve got nothing else, do you? Nothing worth anything. Nothing but “faith”, which is defined as belief without evidence. Good luck, with that.
As a Christian, I have a more “open-minded and greater respect” for the blessing of the Universe. As a Christian, I embrace each day the Universe blesses me with. Unlike the LIBERAL Atheist view, “Refuting everything.” Once again, you have taken my words out of “context” about evolution. The only “reference” I made regarding evolution was about the “human voice box” at the conference. Why are you so hostile that I attend a conference about the Universe? I have no hidden agenga or further explanation why the global science community was so excited about the discovery. They just were. Seriously, if you are so excited about Pro-Evolution, what are your thoughts about same-sex marriage. Good or Bad for our “Evolution.”
As far as your presentation of “self,” you are a cold, weak and lost individual just looking for “something” and “anything” to offer “personal insults and tyrads.” Basically, the equal of the LIBERAL version of Rush. You have represented the LIBERAL agenda well. As far as my faith, God is all law and I will follow. Just curious, how do you follow or teach lessons of “NOTHING.” If you like, please feel free and justify the “taunting” at the end of the post I am replying that would be a compassionate LIBERAL action, or I “BELIEVE” that is a contradiction.
Actually I would say that athieist are more moral then most Christians. We do good because we know it is it right, not to try and to get into Heaven. We understand that when we die that it. So we must make the most of today.
Doing good does not get you into heaven. Believing Jesus Christ died for your sins and asking his forgiveness gets you into heaven. There will be plenty of people in hell who did good all their lives, but rejected the gift of eternal life.
That is such a wonderful god you have. Why would I want to believe is a god that discounts all the good people do? That is not loving at all, its actually very petty. I live an upstanding wonderful life. I love my family, I love all the people in my life. I truely care about people and will do anything to help someone in need. I truely can say that I am trying to do my part to make the world better. Yet your God will simply say “well you didn’t believe in my while do all that good so its hell for you” but will say to the criminal in jail that found God ” welcome in” That is not someone I want to be around.
Just how “good” does one have to be to get into heaven?
You have to go to one of the fundamental/evangelical cult churches around here, cp. They have a “goodometer” the pastor purchased (with the flock’s funds) to measure goodness.
Is there any better reason to not be a Christian than the story of Job? The omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent master of the universe tells the prosecutor of his Divine Counsel to try to tempt and torment the most righteous man and his most faithful follower seemingly for his own sadistic pleasure when he knew how it would end even before it began.
According to Merriam-Webster:
Bigot: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices;
Obstinate: perversely adhering to an opinion, purpose, or course in spite of reason, arguments, or persuasion
Would you agree that the modern American definition of liberal is synonymous with “progressive”? If so, would you agree that progressives advocate more government control? If so, What would you call someone who advocates more government control over who can marry, more control over what can and can’t be done on a certain religion holy days, including the sabbath, more control over who can and can’t raise children based on their relationships with consenting adults?
What is really funny is that before the Voice box, it was the Eye. Creationalist were up in arms about how complex and well designed the eye was and how only a god could have made it. Now it is switched to the voice box? Is it because someone clearly pointed out that the eye is complex but poorly designed? The problem with the voice box is that is is simply not bone, there for we can not see how it evolved over time. If the voice box is so cleverly designed why does it get hurt when we use it?
Kevin, just curious? While you are LOL(ing), what is your explanation of lets say “Man’s” arrival on the planet Earth? Clearly, it began with two Apes on a lonely night…?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYB2zrVIMaY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUFOlyt7ErE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mhX2Kas558
Kevin, my apologizes. I am very busy being a grown-up and do not have enough time for “You Tube.”
Next time you get over a cold, thank Neaderthal, because gene for gene that is where our immune system comes from. No, we didn’t evolve, not at all…
Scared you might learn something?
No proof? Plenty. Organisms originate and evolve from with populations, not individuals.
There is also no proof for divine origins of any life, including humans, and it would be foolish and heretical for any of us to try.
So there has been scientific proof that has filled the missing link? Animals like the Platypus has been explained scientifically? Open a narrow mind and see what there is to learn. (The same can be said to religion only folk)
There can’t be proof simply because it hasn’t been witnessed. We have evidence to support theories. The courts often convict people without proof, only evidence. Does that mean those crimes did not happen?
Science works to prove its theories. Evidence is part of that – but it does not define the proof. Remember – Evolution is still just a theory – not a scientific law – because there has not been enough evidence to prove the theory.
Ah, the old theory vs law argument. I knew this one would turn up. Theories don’t become laws, they explain them.
Hmmm. If you knew the argument was going to come up – I guess it has validity. So where is the Law of Evolution? Oh wait – it is a theory which explains which law again? It must be the Law of “It cannot possibly be creation so we will create some other explanation for it”. I can see why everyone talks about the theory and not the law then.
I can see that further discussion with a closed mind will net no gain. I would offer to pray for you, but I suspect that you would turn me down. Tough – I will pray for all who do not believe anyway.
You know it is not the law of gravity right? You clearly have no Idea what Scientific theory means.
Theories could become laws if they are tested enough and come out with the expected answers, but only three have turned into laws and only 7 hypothesis have become theories, yes, as I recall, evolution was one of the 7.
There are no facts in science, only three laws. The rest are theories and ideas.
Evolution is NOT “just a theory”. Evolution is a well tested Scientific Theory. Totally different than what you’re claiming as not having enough evidence to prove. http://teachthemscience.org/scientifictheory
Please refer to my response to deltamike2. I will include you as well.
You do not understand what Theory means in the scienctic community. Theory does not mean just a guess. You do understand that Gravity is just a theory as well? Plate techonics. You are not going to jump off a building an expect to fall up are you? No because you now that gravity will pull you down. Scientific theory is best described as “explanation of” not the “guess of”
The Law of Gravity states that objects with mass are attracted to each other.
The Theory of Gravity tries to explain why objects with mass are attracted to each other.
What missing link(s)? The platypus is truly unique but accounted for in the Linnean taxonomy. It’s also very well adapted to it’s environment although monotremes will always lose out to placentals in competition.
Instead of the atheistic ‘party line,’ why don’t you try to prove there IS no God? You are welcome to your own beliefs. So am I & others who believe in God. What is truly unbelievable is that the earth, the human species, animal life, biology, the miracle of birth, etc. JUST HAPPENED for no reason. Now that’s tough to believe.
Because the Atheist isn’t making grand claims, like virgin birth and resurrection. The onus is on the believer.
If God exists, that means that there are rules and stuff, right? That’s why most people deny that God exists, because they don’t like His rules. In any case, I’ll take the Word of God over what you say about it. The bible warned us that in the “last days” people would deny a few specific things, (you can go read this in 2 Peter 3:3-7), they being:
1. The arrival of Christ. (Verse 4)
2. The Genesis account of creation. (Verse 5)
3. The flood. (Verse 6)
4. Future/final judgment. (Verse 7)
And well, guess what? Here we are, and people are denying exactly what the bible says they would, written nearly 2,000 years ago! Must be the last days ahead…
But it is your choice, don’t forget that. You deny God exists, because you choose to. That isn’t my fault or God’s fault, that is YOUR fault. But there is a way out, if you want: Jesus. He is there and waiting with open arms to forgive you, accept you, and give you eternal life. All you have to do, is admit to Him that you’re a sinner, just like I once did. It doesn’t matter what your sins are, God will forgive you. It isn’t like His rules are all that hard to follow anyway.
I invite anyone to go watch “Unlocking the Mystery of Life” and “Privileged Planet” (by Illustria Media). You can watch it legally for free on youtube, as the publishers put it up there themselves. Also, quantum mechanics clearly states [among other things] that things exist because they are being observed. So… Who is observing the entire universe?
Jesus said that while he still had his ghost he could do that, that’s why he wanted and asked his friends at his last supper with them to save him from crucifixion.
God is merciful, is universal…. I saw a Koran that kept repeating Allah, compassionate and merciful…..
Even Jesus said he was flesh and bone…….
Your imaginary God doesn’t worry me a bit. Your Bible is a fiction/fantasy, best seller.
One should not take Schrödinger’s cat “experiment”, your ‘can’t exist, if it isn’t seen’ thing, literally, any more than one should take the bible literally.
Basically, they’re both jokes. Sorry :-/
@waytoocool
Typical of almost all believers you know very little about science. That’s probably due to the fact that Science and Religion are antithetical to one another. God cannot survive scientific scrutiny. Carl Sagan made famous the following ~ “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”.
There are no more extraordinary claims than those postulated by Religion. Virgin Birth, Resurrection… Yet, believers accept such preposterous claims as real. Well, you’ll have to excuse the rest of us for laughing at that.
People Believing as they have for thousands of years is power, its Faith and trusting God, it’s hope and dreams, it all comes together in religion. I have no issues with the strength that comes will people gathering to worship Their God or mine for that matter.. Why the hate, you ask people to except every lifestyle on the planet yet you spew your hate at people with good hearts and souls who believe in a higher power.
I for one want to believe.. The world is falling apart through greed, drugs, booze and other ways, we need hope and faith that God is there with us to protect us from the criminals running the planet.
Greed, drugs and booze are nothing new and the world is not falling apart. No god is going to protect you from anything on this planet, ever.
You are right, Kevin. I am unclear of the “No God” because there is only “One God,” but I am not looking for protection because Earth is not my home. However, we can take the pathway of avoiding all you mentioned and not loath around minimizing our time on Earth until we all go home.
If your home is invaded by a drug-crazed thrill-seeker or a thrill-crazed drug-seeker, put your money where your mouth is. Don’t call the cops, just pray. Maybe you should use a mustard seed amount of faith to move the mountains to make the AT more to your liking.
OK. I will “pray” that the “drug-crazed thrill-seeker” (whatever that is…?) remebers I have the right to bear arms…
If god is looking out for you, why do you look both ways before you cross the street? Was your mother smarter than your god? Is your faith in your mother’s wisdom stronger than the faith you have in your god? If you were (and i do not wish it on anyone) to get cancer, would you spit in the face of your god calling you “home” and seek treatment? Most Christians love their faith, right up until they need science to stay safe and healthy.
An argument based on a flawed hypothesis will end with a flawed conclusion.
Just so we can minimize the confusion. Are you referencing “Carl Sagan” the Cornell professor? If so, you do understand his personal internal examination of “God” was from the conflicts of a sort-of-religious father and a God is “without” argument real mother. Also, you failed to mention one of Mr. Sagan’s most famous quotes regarding atheism:
“An atheist is someone who is certain that God does not exist, someone who has compelling evidence against the existence of God. I know of no such compelling evidence.”
In closing, if you feel empowered “arguing” and “self-debating” line for line events within the Bible so you can reinforce your “NOTHING.” The foundation of the the Bible and my church have accomplished the following in the past month: Heating fund for local senior citizens, “Backpacks for Kids,” Scholarships for kids to attend summer camps, open food pantry, Soup Kitchen, Helping our Veterans; the list goes on. Mr. Born Again “Nothing,” you want to see where God is…You want to see the work of Jesus? Take one evening. An evening of your self-absorbed ambition to denounce a value system you clearly do not understand and volunteer at a Soup Kitchen. There is our God. Our God helping our people. Maybe your “NOTHING” will become “SOMETHING.”
Why don’t you lecture the anti-evolution crowd in here? It’s religion’s fault they willfully refuse to accept science. Religion sells and depends on ignorance. You don’t know me or who I love or what I give. No God is needed to be loving or kind.
Believers, if you realized there was no such thing as God tomorrow how much less would you love your children?
The contradiction written within the posted paragraph, leaves me questioning more than your belief in “NOTHING.” Anyway, staying on topic you misrepresented Carl Sagan as an Atheist. I provided a direct quote from Mr. Sagan that clearly was the opposite. So know you infused your reply with the “You don’t know me” argument. Really?
Why are you making the assumption that Religion and Science hate each other like Cats and Dogs? For you not wanting to be judged. You can not judge. As far as your Liberal fueled propaganda question: Non-Believers, “If you realized there WAS a God tomorrow, what would you do to make your existence more worthwhile besides arguing if there is a God?”
As a Christian, I attended an amazing seminar about the Universe, and the many theories that best attempt to explain everything from particles to humans. One piece of information provided tremendous insight. The “voicebox” of humans is ONLY in humans and the complexity has the scientific community, “In awe…It is one-of-a kind.” How can this be explained? Let us ask our scientific, Liberal…
Sagan described himself as an Agnostic. Hardly the opposite of an Atheist. Nice try.
As far as the human voice box. It’s no evidence of the supernatural. Many intelligent mammals and birds have extremely complex vocal communication skills. This “magical” human voice box of yours can’t make tones an elephant or whale or dolphin can, for instance.
We’re fascinating mammals, but that is all we are. Highly intelligent, evolved, mammals.
My confusion. I am very truly sorry, I had no idea we were at the same conference about the Universe and how incredibly unique Earth was and is today. Again, “Making-Up” information is truly the foundation of the Liberal “NOTHING” propaganda. The question was not regarding “communication” of animals, but the specific “design and structure of the human voice-box” is so unique,” science hails it as a marvel. Please review my post, I never said it was “magical” or “Provided from God by the heavens,” I am waiting for a response from an “Atheist” that demonstrates a core-value within your “NOTHING.”
OK, you need to ask a clear question through your blood-red, hate-filled eyes. The human voice box is complex. So what! Lots of animals have physical features that are complex. What’s your point? Do you have a point? Or, are you just using every opportunity to throw around your LIBERAl label?
Clearly LIBERALS identify themselves when the only answer they have is rhetoric that is slander stereotypes of a specific individual. Mr. Atheist, I only asked you a question that I learned and was discussed at a conference entitled “The Universe.” Why are you entitled to describe me as “blood-red, hate-filled eyes.” At this time, should I conclude that all “Atheist are judgemental?” Truly, choosing a pathway that requires no responsibility or accountability. The definition of Liberal = Contradiction.
Humans “acquired” their complex voice box through… Drum roll, please! EVOLUTION! http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129083762
N.P.R. Yeah, O.K.? For some reason N.P.R. does not work in my car. Once, the stationed worked and my car drove hard to the left…truly LOL.
Don’t feed the troll..he’s a lost cause.
And you most likely think the human eye is very complex when sadly, we are very blind to the world around us. The human eye is horrible by design as is the rest of our bodies.
Take a good look at yourself in the mirror. If you think that is the best a creator could come up with I feel bad for you.
Perception. You have a perception of the Universe through a new born kitten that has not opened their eyes. You demonstrate you are in constant need of approval, validation and protection. The foundation of “NOTHING” has provided you with a sense of insecurity. LIBERAL. Why the reference of the human eye? Ask a doctor. OK, I will take a good look at myself in the mirror, and I look truly amazing because of my God.
So if science cannot explain it at the current time then god did it, correct?
Christians such as yourself love to play that game. Cannot explain it? It has to be god.
The torment of the minimal Liberal perception of the Universe. As a Christian, I never said because there was no explanation, “God did it?” That was your simple-minded assumption of my belief system. Once again, the LIBERAL agenda demands equality and respect, but truly without a “value system” it is a hole-in-the-bucket.
I take it you are a huge fan of Beck and Rush.
Truly, the first comment I could classify (Scientific Term) as an insult. Again, why are you attempting to stereotype my value system with two polar opposite individuals of my values. Shame on you.
You got sucked in to the unnecessary dog fight. That quote you cite is not necessarily “liberal’ or “liberal fueled”. Plenty of liberals are people of faith.
As for your bullet points, the human voicebox is wonderful and more developed than others, but how do birds fit in? Granted they have some unique meachanisms of their own, but have you ever heard a Hermit Thrush? (You’ll probably never see one). We have one in the woods near us.
My appreciation you have been reading the post regarding the topic of “God or not to God.” My example of the human voice-box is not intended to be anymore complex that all the information is providing. I just want to be very clear that for the question to be examined we need to remove “ourselves” from evolution or “specific and unique animals.” At the conference, science from the “all points of the Earth,” for now, have determined that the Human voice-box has “Zero correlation” of evalution. They have “zero” explanation of how and why humans acquired or need the device. As a Christian, I am offered unsoliciated advice all the time about my perception from Liberals, and I just wanted to state the Universe is a true blessing. Regardless.
From Grunting To Gabbing: Why Humans Can Talk
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129083762
One does not have to attack religion in general to combat anti-evolution/Creationist ignorance.
From a scientist/person of faith in the middle (I know, I catch it from all sides)
Because atheist never do any of these things.
Source: http://www.atheistshelpingthehomeless.org/AHTH2/AHTH/index.php
Atheists Helping the Homeless was founded in September of 2009 in Austin, Texas by three proud Atheists who wanted to help people in need. We found that not only was Austin becoming the homeless mecca of the state, but that a lot of preaching at the homeless was going on
Maybe we need to start a Maine chapter.
Congratulations, Kevin! You are admitting you “Stole” a core-value of my Christian belief system and attempting to sell the idea off as a creative idea. Typical Liberal propaganda, sending me a link of an organization from Austin, Texas that you have no “stated affiliation” with. Kevin, your “homerun” statement was, “Maybe we should start one in Maine?” The problem is Kevin, as a Liberal you will be more concerned with the validation than the act itself. This is what seperates Christians and Religions from your “Nothing Belief System.” While you are “thinking” about starting something, as a Christian, I am doing something.
As someone that has a concealed firearm permit I find your use of the word liberal very amusing. There are a lot of conservative atheist. I myself are neither a liberal or a conservative. I’m an independent but folks such as yourself love to simply group me into the class of being a liberal which I find very amusing..
Nobody stole any sort of Christian value because what you call a Christian value has been around longer than Christianity.
Can I start a movement in Bangor, Maine? Maybe, I don’t know. A lot of atheist do not want to come out as atheist because of the huge backlash we face when we do. Atheist are the least trusted in America and that is 100% fact.
Thanks for the laugh.
Why are you assuming I have a concealed firearm permit? The statement, “concealed firearm permit” clearly identifies you as a Liberal. Kevin, excellent demonstration of a value system of being impartial and neutral, being an “Independent.” The amusing part and laugh(ing) begins and ends with me and all other Christians because “you” declare yourself as the “Voice of equality and tolerance,” but you and your Liberal (Independent) propaganda are neither. Like a dog chasing their tail, please remove yourself from the self-inflicted punishment of attempting to educate the foundation of Christians.
As far as the movement for the homeless, spoken like a true Liberal. “I am not sure my feelings may get hurt or I might not get validated enough.” Truly, the “Do nothing and nothing worked approach” declares you a Liberal. We are all set, this morning the Christians already fed the hungry. Kevin, again with the facts, what do you mean “come out” and Atheist are the least trusted in America. A 100% fact. Really? How did the epic and historical battle of the Crusades end for the Atheist? Right, nobody through-out history cares for non-believers.
” Right, nobody through-out history cares for non-believers.”
Yeah! Let that Christian Love Shine!
It’s shinning so bright we can see right through you.
Correction. You believe in “NOTHING.” Yes, let that Christian Love Shine! It is scientifically impossible for “Bright Light” to be transparent. Science is AWESOME. Ever look into the sun and never have to shield your eyes…”
Correction. The atheist believes in the “god of self”.
You really have no idea how this Atheism thing works, do you?
I very much do understand it and I don’t really give two cents for your opinion of it one way or the other. Have a great day!
There, run away when you can’t defend your statements. WTG.
Ridiculous.
Where did I state you did? I stated I have one, not you. Learn to read.
Kevin, let us clarify the confusion. You do not begin a sentence with “As someone.” The issue of my inability to read is not impaired. Only your inability to write “Big Boy” words and “Grown-Up” sentences. The correct usage would be: “I have…” As the reader I would know, “I have” means “Kevin.” If you continued the thought about the same “topic” than you would transition with “As someone.” The way you wrote the sentence identifies “everyone” who has a gun permit and not “specifically you.”
As someone who has recently began writing a novel, I can assure you, that there is nothing wrong with starting a sentence with “As someone…” Google it, if you don’t believe me.
Did you honestly tell or even suggest for me to “Google It?” Really? I do not need to “Google” the simplicty of writing within this format. “As someone” that can write, feel free to remove “Ican assure you.” The editor will explain: “Too wordy.” Also, you may want to “Google” the word usage of “Began” and possibly replace the word with “Begun.” Look forward to…too…two the “Book?” Good Luck. Just have a little “FAITH.”
Leftists have spent more bullets killing people than any other ideology. I’m not impressed with your permit.
Christianity has the high score when it comes to killing. The Papacy alone has sanctioned somewhere around 250 million deaths just for the crime of heresy.
Sources please.
Like praying? Pretty sure that falls under doing nothing as well while making yourself feel better.
You sound like the real deal unlike the tv preacher BS eaters.
I haven’t studied the matter but Carl Sagan sounds more like an agnostic.
Truly, you have minimal or no knowledge of Carl Sagan, but you believe he sounds more “agnostic.” As a Christian, that is like stating my world view is based from “FOX News.” Yikes!
Sagan described himself as Agnostic.
In reply to a question in 1996 about his religious beliefs, Sagan answered, ‘I’m agnostic.’Head, Tom. “Conversations with Carl”. Skeptic 13 (1): 32–38.Excerpted in Head, Tom, ed. (2006). University of Mississippi Press. ISBN 1-57806-736-7..
The Marines do Toys for Tots, so should we all bow down to a Drill Sergent? Or let some general decide our daily fates? Handing out food is not the work of god, it is the work of man, just like your religion is the work of man. Know what else is the work of man? The Dark Ages when your “Christian” values ruled Europe. That left a gap in our social and scientific evolution from which we still haven’t recovered. Your “religion” is the biggest killer of man in the planet’s history, so do not tell me that putting some soup in a bowl makes up for that, or makes you any better of a person than the Atheist standing beside you buttering the bread.
A quibble from a scientist and person of faith (a “believer” if you will although that bears bad connotations in some circles and non acceptance from “true Believers”). We do know a lot about science and are assisting in combating the Creationist misinformation about and ignorance of science.
You’d be scarcer than hens teeth then. Again, how can you be a Christian without being a Creationist? Either God created Man, or Man created God. I suggest it’s the latter.
I don’t think the new building will threaten your right to practice your atheist religion.
There’s no such thing as an “atheist religion”. Atheism is by definition the exact opposite of a religion.
Of course there is. You definitively reject something you can neither prove or disprove. You do so by faith (trusting that you are right). The agnostic has far more intellectual credibility than the atheist. However that is neither here nor there. I don’t give two cents for your opinion one way or the other. Have a nice day!
An Agnostic is merely a wishy-washy, fence sitter IMO. I don’t need to disprove every hare-brained, ridiculous claim out there. It’s incumbent on the claimant to prove their claim. IE: There was/is a Deity that created the universe,. There was a virgin birth, and a resurrection.
If your point is valid, I demand that you prove there is no flying spaghetti monster. Go.
“Atheism is the position that affirms the non-existence of God. It proposes positive disbelief rather than mere suspension of belief.” —
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy
So really your “proposal of positive disbelief” and assertion that you have all the answers is much more dogmatic then any humble Christian would ever claim to be.
Religion requires belief in a Deity. I don’t believe in any Deity. I am an Atheist. I never claimed to have all the answers. That. is the exclusive domain of the Religious. I merely offer that not knowing doesn’t mean there must be a God.
I don’t know. So, God = Logic fail.
Your religion is either Naturalism and/or Humanism- you treat nature as “sacred” and/or insist that man is innately good. Therefore your “deity” is belief in yourself , and your object of worship is in creation- rather than a Creator. As I said above, Romans 1:25 warns of this very idol worship.
Ridiculous. There is no Deity to believe in. Period. I worship nothing and no one. Your Bible is merely one of hundreds of Religious scripts that all share belief in the supernatural for which there is ZERO evidence. That, is an untenable position in my estimation.
Why do the comments on these stories always evolve into some ridiculous theological argument?
The topic at hand is not whether there is or is not a God. The topic is that the church is building a new building because they were unable to expand in a strip mall. Someone screwed up at city hall and allowed a church in a strip mall – an action which violated a zoning ordinance – nothing more, nothing less. I don’t go to church and I don’t care to go, but I find it highly amusing to read how many people are so insecure in their belief or disbelief, that they feel it incumbent upon themselves to get on BDN and pontificate (pun intended) for their opinion to be the only right and just one.
Good luck to the members in finding the funding to expand their church. I hope it works out for them.
When a Christian post lies about the 2nd law of thermodynamics I’m going to jump on them. I do my best to stay neutral but once people start posting lies I will respond.
Because everyone knows … Thou shalt not lie.
Agreed. But we all need to cool off and not pick additional fights. As I pointed out before, not all Christians, are Creationists, literalists, or ignorant of evolution or thermo. It doesn’t take an atheist to refute their arguments (although as previously acknowledged, you did a good job).
But you and I both know that is not going to happen.
You pointed it out, yes. But, you haven’t explained it, even though I’ve asked you to 4 times now…
How can you be a Christian and not be a Creationist? Either God created Man, or Man created God. I think it’s pretty obviously the latter but…
I do not believe you can be a consistent Christian but there are Christians who hold to evolutionary theory.
Yes Kevin, we all know that all of your dedication with the 2nd law of thermodynamics will make all Christians and people of faith generate serious self-reflection of their belief in God.
2nd law of thermodynamics ? LOL
I think it’s a total waste of energy but whatever floats your boat. :)
Most people will believe what they believe and disregard the rest. ‘Tis human nature.
The article was about a Church. We all read the article and because the article was about a “Church” there will be discussion of theology. So if you do not attend church and “don’t care to go” what prompted you to read the article? Also, why are you declaring we are insecure? Maybe you read the article for a “reason?” Trust us, we got the “pun.”
Why would a church violate zoning requirements if it is located in a “strip mall”?
“it looks like God was in charge all along,” says Pastor Winters. That is something you should have believed from the beginning–that is the simplicity of faith.
As Woody Allen’s character Alvie Singer said in the Academy Award-winning “Annie Hall”:
“I can’t get with any religion that advertises in Popular Mechanics.”
History shows again and again how nature points up the folly of man
God-zilla!
Now if they only paid taxes on that $613,000 building!
When you are willing to have all non-profits pay property taxes, come back and talk.
Non profit?
Jerry Falwell, Rick Warren, and a host of other evangelical charlatans seem to be doing pretty well for themselves, non profit indeed.
Jerry Falwell is dead.
Again, unless you are willing to tax all non-profits, you really have no valid objection.
God is an industry just like GM, Ford and Johnson and Johnson. Its made a lot of money , and stroked a lot of egos for some individuals. If it makes you feel good, go for it, but the bottom line is the bottom line. Keep your wallets and purses handy. You will need them going forward.
Not to worry, you are not going and your wallet is safe until the bar opens.
I came for the article, I stayed for the comment section. I love to watch people argue about religion, so cute.
I don’t have enough faith to be an atheist…
Right, I guess you didn’t know that Atheism is the total lack of faith in God or gods. Now you do.
So what provides you with any sort of hope in this life if you live with the “belief” (ie “faith”) that nothing happens after you die- and your body just gets eaten by worms?
The natural world is fascinating enough. I find it ridiculous to inject the supernatural into it, especially when there is no evidence to support the supernatural.
As far as an afterlife… Wouldn’t it make sense that if this was the ONLY life you get, that you’d make sure to treat it as such? No “do overs”. If this is IT, you’d better make it count.
I can’t think of anything more arrogant than believing you’ll live forever. It makes no sense, to me. Yes, we’re here to feed the worms, if you will.
You are so right about the beauty and fascination of the natural world– the very beauty and marvelous world that requires a divine Creator of it all. In fact it’s the beauty of the natural world that the Apostle Paul warns in Romans 1:20 will give us NO excuse for having denied God’s existence in The End. And finally, some choose NOT to be arrogant and heed the advice of Romans 1:25- don’t exchange the truth of God for a lie, and worship the created things- rather than the Creator.
There is ZERO evidence that there need be or is a Divine Creator. That is simply the poor explanation of what we don’t understand. You don’t know, so you say God. I don’t know, so I say lets investigate until we do, even if we fail. God, is the easy way out. Science is the search for answers. Religion is the end of searching for answers.
What about the thousands of Gods you don’t believe in? I just happen to believe in one less than you do.
First, I strongly believe the evidence of a Divine Creator is simply that something (the universe and life) can’t come from nothing ASIDE FROM intervention from something that has always been (God).
Second, I believe a divine Creator because I believe in a world that has a larger meaning and that there is something greater than myself after our lives on this world end. I believe there is a purpose to human history. Your world is one of just stuff, thrown out into space and time, going nowhere, meaning nothing.Third, I believe if people really weren’t from God then there would be much more chaos in this world where there would be no basic morals of right from wrong. Unlike animals, people have a basic sense of moral responsibility- I believe this is from God.
I believe in the Judeo-Christian God of the Bible because no other world religion or “spirituality” has made as good of a case for the redemption of mankind and the afterlife. I believe Jesus Christ rose from the dead because there are eyewitness accounts of this. No other world religion or spirituality makes this claim- all other religious leaders are in the ground and dead. Without some help from the divine, Christianity would not have survived the initial years as people would have just discounted the early followers as crazy. It’s the miracles witnessed firsthand by people outside of the Christian faith that added credibility, and helped it expand from Jerusalem to the ends of the Earth… now 2000+ years and counting.
And I don’t discount science. I love science. I don’t for a minute think of The Bible as a science book and having all the answers in that department. I simply look at science through the lens of an all-knowing awesome God that created everything- including science!
A Virgin Birth? Resurrection? If anyone said these things happened TODAY you’d laugh in their face and accuse them of being a false prophet.
And, there were NO eye-witnesses to this supposed Resurrection in your Bible! Do you actually read it? There was a Crucifixion (supposedly) and Jesus’s body was entombed. 3 days later, Jesus’s sealed tomb was found empty.
There is ZERO evidence of a Virgin Birth or a Resurrection!
People don’t say these things happen today because they don’t happen today! Did you know that even Muslims affirm the Virgin birth of Jesus in the Quran?
Not sure what Bible you have read, but there a numerous eyewitness accounts in The Gospels of our risen Lord for 40 days after he rose from the dead until his ascension into heaven (which was also witnessed). The Apostle Paul summarizes these appearances in 1 Cor 15:4-8. Note that many of the “500 brothers” Paul said Jesus appeared to where still alive at the writing of 1 Corinthians, so if it was bunk people of that day would have spoken up and discounted it.
Once again, you are attempting to explain away miracles using a rational scientific mind, but then are willing to admit that science doesn’t have all the answers to the beginning of life and the universe. If you are willing to concede science hasn’t uncovered every mystery, how can “lack of scientific evidence” be sufficient to disprove central tenets to the Christian Faith? It’s is called “Faith” for a reason… which since you are an Atheist I can understand why this disconnect takes place for you- your “faith” is in the hope that all of this is indeed not true.
We are just going back and forth with no conclusion in sight, so I likely won’t respond again. You are wise in your own eyes, but I have faith your eyes will be opened to the truth some day if God wills it. Grace and Peace brother.
Totally disturbed by the comments here. A local popular church is expanding….and every atheist in the State feels it a time to bash religion. Grow up already.