MINOT, Maine — Christopher Tiner’s Cub Scout badges and belt buckles still have a place of honor in his living room. But it was honor — and a bit of the 9-year-old’s boredom with Scouting — that led him to quit.
“I didn’t like it that they were kicking people out,” Christopher said. “I don’t think it’s fair.”
He saw national news stories about Eagle Scouts giving back their medals since the organization reaffirmed its stance barring people who are openly gay from participating as Scouts or serving as leaders.
Christopher thought about the camping trips and the wooden cars he’d made, his trophies and his badges. In the end, the good stuff wasn’t good enough to outweigh his growing restlessness with the Scouts or its decision.
“He could make his own decision about it,” said Scott Tiner, Christopher’s father.
In the end, the decision was easy, Christopher said. The Scouts had soured for him. He had stuff to do with his friends, anyway.
Does he regret the decision?
“No,” Christopher said.
However, the move has made him special. No other current Scout in Maine has quit over the gay issue since the Boy Scouts of America announced the results in July of a two-year study, suggesting no change in the U.S. Supreme Court-tested policy.
Eric Tarbox, who serves as executive of the Boy Scouts’ Portland-based Pine Tree Council, said he had heard few complaints since he came on the job two months ago.
In that time, he had been contacted about 10 times on the issue, he said. About half of those people complained, he said. The other half praised the Boy Scouts of America.
As the issue stands, neither Scouts nor leaders are asked if they are gay. However, anyone who is an open and avowed homosexual cannot belong, according to the rules in the national charter.
All councils, including Maine’s two, Pine Tree and Katahdin, must follow the charter.
“We believe that we’re not equipped, nor is it in our current education program, to discuss matters of sexuality, heterosexuality, homosexuality or any kind of sexuality with our children because they’re minors and we don’t have any training regimen,” said Tarbox, whose council includes 10 Maine counties from Jackman to Portland.
“We don’t have ways that we equip den leaders and Scout masters to discuss these issues, nor would we want to have them do that,” he said. “We believe that parents are the ones who should choose the time and the context in which to address with their children matters of a sexual nature.”
Marshall Steinmann, who represents the Katahdin Council, which includes the eastern half of Maine, said he, too, had heard complaints.
“We believe that good people can personally disagree on this topic and still work together to accomplish shared objectives,” he said. “Our role is to equip young people with life skills so one day they can make their own wise decisions.”
Ed Desgrosseilliers of Auburn, who served as the Scouts’ volunteer district chairman in Androscoggin and Oxford counties for the past two years, said it’s an issue that’s clouded in bias.
“I think that, unfortunately, the people who are on the national board are misinformed or misdirected with regard to sexuality and think that somehow leads to pedophilia,” he said. He separated with the Scouts about two weeks ago on an unrelated issue. The Scouts is a private organization and it has the right to set its own policies, he said.
“As a leader, I looked for people who are good people who want to do things for youngsters,” Desgrosseilliers said. He worked to keep them safe from abusers, whether they were gay or straight. The national organization has youth protection programs that help leaders, and most do a good job, he said.
Tarbox boiled down the gay issue to sexual advocacy of any kind, following other Scout councils in broadening its rules.
“It doesn’t matter what adults choose to do,” he said. “Advocating it is inappropriate, and we have a zero-tolerance policy for it. Period. So, frankly, it doesn’t matter what you are. We don’t want to know. It’s simply inappropriate, any of it.”
Someone might even be gay and lead a troop or a pack, as long as his or her sexual identity is never raised, he said.
“We don’t have a form that someone fills out,” Tarbox said. “We don’t say, ‘What are you? What kind of sexuality do you believe in?’ We don’t proactively inquire, anyway.”
That’s not enough, said Scott Tiner, Christopher’s dad.
Though he led Scouts for years, he said he was saddened by the Boy Scouts of America’s reaffirmation.
“When that happened, it seemed like they were never going to change this policy,” he said. He said he likes many of the leaders — “they’re all great people” — and thinks the programs have helped his son and others.
But in the end, he, too, left the group.
“I don’t want to have a membership card to an organization that makes it very clear that this is how they feel,” he said.
Such ignorance. I can’t believe there are still people out there who think that gay=child molester. I’m proud of this boy for standing up for what he believes in.
Is the “boy” the one “standing up for what he believes in?”
Why is his father in the picture?
Apply some critical thinking.
The greatest examples of people “standing up for what they believe in” are the folks who do it every day w/out the need to publicize it or seek their 15 minutes…
I see where your headed with your comment.. I , too, had the same suspicion
Gee, you assume the worst in those you disagree with. What a great quality to have.
He probably has a family member that is gay. How sad for you that you automatically assume the worst in others.
Hmmm, well obviously the term “critical thinking” is a process you seem
unfamiliar w/. Let’s try another one! “Irony” as in your response: “He probably
has a family member that is gay. How sad for you that you automatically assume
the worst in others.” (Was “assuming” nothing. Merely made some observations.)
Have another observation! You might want to step away from the keyboard &
get that glass houses & stones thing down next time…. Be well!
I made a rational assumption. Most of us have a family member or friend that we care about who is gay. Like it’s reasonable to assume that someone who raises money for cancer (for example) has either had it or has had a family member/friend who has had it. You don’t automatically assume they’re doing it for attention — that is unless you assume the worst in people. Be better!
Sigh… non sequitur although you do give yourself away. You leap to a
conclusion unsupported by facts & then double down on “assumption.” Can’t
say that I enjoyed our interaction. Close minded, irrational people who make
false assumptions then extrapolate those assumptions as “proof” are seemingly
incapable of logic. Sorry, I’m not here to educate you. Your own POV &
emotion is limiting whatever point you feel so passionate about. Be better
indeed.
You can say the grass is blue all you want, but it doesn’t make it so. I made a reasonable assumption and then I used an analogy to demonstrate why my assumption is reasonable. You jumped to conclusions assuming bad or dishonorable intentions behind this boy’s actions with no basis.
You need to be better and not assume the worst of people. What a terrible outlook to have.
Ha! Paraphrasing The Bard: “The lady doth PROJECT too much, methinks.”
You don’t even have a real response, just more negativity. It’s pathetic.
What if its Kentucky blue grass?????
Arrogance much, RJ?
Ha! Ya think? Maybe I’m just having fun. Maybe I’m an agent
provocateur. Although all I really did in my original post, was simply ask two
questions, asked folks to apply critical thinking & made an observation.
Other than that, the weather today isn’t all that great to be out on the water
fishing & when I get into a hot spot where the fish are rising to the bait
continually it’s hard to resist reeling them in. (I do faithfully practice catch
& release though…)
Try unbarbed fly fishing then, if you like catch and release. Anyone can be a worm-dunker.
Must have been a general statement to anyone who actually read it. I’d
float a line out there saying that you fancy yourself a “purist” w/that elitist
post. You really shouldn’t limit yourself so much. For the record, I can’t
remember the last time I used a worm. I do get a kick out of sports like you
though. I’d wager that you’re missing out on a lot of fishing & obviously
actually catching any. Contact me if you want to learn! Take care & good
luck (you go ahead & use luck & I’ll use skill, let’s compare the catch
@ the end of the day.)
RJ, in reality, wolfndeer is correct….regardless of whether or not it is realized. Chances are each of us has at least one family member who is gay. It’s also a bit sad, RJ, that you would think the boy made his decision merely because he was, as you imply (imnsho), manipulated into it by his father. My first thought when I saw the picture of the two of them was that the father supports his son’s decision for whatever reason. The reason doesn’t matter. The decision is a good one; it shows that the boy has learned well the lessons from scouting and, apparently, from his family. Kudos to Christopher for making a difficult decision and for his family for supporting him.
A life of buggery is nothing a nine year old should support or even know about.
LOL Buggery….that’s so 500 years ago. Just like being anti-gay.
I agree ..although 9 year olds are smart …it seems this kid is listening to to much information around his parents …………Parents please stop letting your kids get involved and listen to adult conversation …tell them they need to go find something to do instead of hanging on your shirt tails … …I see it every where even in my faimly …. to much adult conversation around young kids…. its horrible , kids now know what parents pay on there mortgage , car payment , how much the new boat cost ….Tthey don’t need to know anything like that till maybe high school …..I could not hang out with my parents when they had friends over I had to ” GO FIND SOMETHING TO DO “and if your bored I can find plenty for you to do (I just wanted a pack of baseball cards at the corner store I def didn’t know what gay was ) …that’s about all I new at 9
Are you sure the child or his father were the ones who contacted the media? That’s presumptuous. Maybe it was a proud family member-and a STRAIGHT one at that!
oh yes, that selfish 9 year old. How often does a 9 year old get a chance to stand up for something they believe in?
Are you sure the child or his father were the ones who contacted the media? That’s presumptuous. Maybe it was a proud family member-and a STRAIGHT one at that!
When I look at the picture, all I see is a supportive father. I was taught not to assume the worst of people.
I believe the father is in the picture because he is proud of his son for making a statement in the name of fairness and equality. Also, the father chose to step down as a leader. Isn’t it great that even kids have freedom of expression in America?
I find it difficult to imagine that a 9 year old has such a strong opinion on this subject, seems to me that somebody is using this child to push their own agenda. Let the kid be a kid, maybe when he grows up he can form a real opinion on this subject. Shame on the Dad!
Congrats to this dad for not allowing his son to stand alone… My son is a 9 year old and let me tell you… HE KNOWS HIS OWN MIND. That being said I would never ever allow him to stand alone no matter how he felt on ANY subject.
Good for you Dad! I feel the same way. A big problem for a lot of people is thinking that children have no thoughts or opinions of their own. This is farthest from the truth!
I have a 12 and 10 year old and at that age, they had their own opinions on many different spectrums (politics, gay marriage, the war, ect.) Don’t assume that just because a child is 9 that he doesn’t form his own opinions from watching the news – mine have.
JustSayin56, the boy was a scout and appears to be from a supporting family. How sad that you would think a child of that age would not, under those circumstances, have learned values. It’s well known that the majority of Americans’ basic values are set before the age of 7. It was at just about that age when one of my son’s, after me suggesting that we help, his friend’s family who had lost their possessions to fire, in gathering up some of his personal possessions for the boys in that family, included his favorite shirt. When I questioned him as to whether he really wanted to give away his favorite shirt, he responded with (paraphrasing here) “That’s why I want him to have it.” Don’t sell kids short.
I started the diversity club at my school when I was 10. that was in the face of having two evangelical christian parents who are still against homosexuality and mostly racist. Stop making assumptions about 9yo children and their convictions.
I know, your parents never hugged you, we get it. Some day I hope you thank your parents for loving you. I know I threw mine under the bus once too.
Gays and their supporters alway playing the victim. You want status? Stop talking about it and just be. People are tired of it. Just be!
By the way, I don’t care what you do in your own home, but don’t chastise me because I don’t want you to be my kids scout leader.
This may be the most rediculous comment I have ever read. Pretty unreasonable and irrational. That being said, I am not gay, I have a wife and a child, so that logic is really working well for you. Also, my parents hug me all the time, I love them dearly, and that does not change the fact that they are bigoted.
Also, it would disgust me to find out you were my kids scout leader.
Mature of you, Captain “diversity”.
I don’t care if you love men, women, or trees, not quite sure your need to share?
Once again, if someone disagrees with a liberal their a bigot.
of course you are wrong again. Some people may disagree with me about your intelligence level, they are not bigots. Mostly, I call bigots as they are. You know? Just people like you or my parents. The actual bigots. I am not upset that you are a bigot though. I am mostly upset that you are so irrational and incapable of framing a reasonable argument. Quite sad…oh well.
The bigot lie has been told so many times that you fail to realize that it’s actually you that’s the bigot…..Polly want a cracker?
I would encourage you to clarify your comments…at most they are dishonest right now.
Regardless of your rant, you’ll lose AGAIN in November. You know that right?
People will stop talking about it and making it an issue when gay people are afforded the same rights as straight people. Why don’t the bigots stop talking about and “just be?”
“Heterosexuality is not normal, it’s just common.” Dorothy Parker
Uh, huh.
at nine years old i certainly had a mind of my own and knew what was wrong and what was right, or at least had a grasp of it. I worked with the boyscouts for years and i’m incredibly sad that they chose to stick to this viewpoint. I always said it was a great group for young kids to get into because it was a place where you could go and immediately be accepted. You rarely had to worry about being picked on or bullied, and you were mostly just accepted for who you were. it’s sad to me that they would exclude all of these kids, who really NEED that kind of support group, simply because of who they choose to love. This young man stood up for what he believes in, we should encourage that.
Okay, so using your rational, women should be allowed to be boy scout leaders and men should be allowed to be girl scout leaders????
Gay does not equal child molester. However, it is better to be safe than sorry. Who are you going to sue if a gay scout master molests your son? The Boy Scouts of America, of course.
I personally think it’s pathetic that we’ve come to a point where if you do not accept polymorphous perversion as the “norm” then you’re a bigoted dinosaur. Morals are NOT outdated, keep your pederasts away from my children.
They didn’t say that Gay = Child Molester. You did! They also don’t exclude gay folks, just openly gay ones. Personally I think that the child is a victim of adult thinking and isn’t being rational. Quitting has never solved anything! Way to go slugger!
This is ignorant. The incident of molesting is no higher among the gay community.
I’d be more likely to entrust my children to a gay boy scouts leader than I would a religious figure any day. I know, bring on the nasty comments. That being said, why do gay children have to go around professing their sexuality? As the guy said, we don’t ask or care. It sounds like the ones being banned are the ones who can’t keep their mouths shut and have some need to brag. I wonder if the straight kids would get kicked out if they started bragging about being straight? (after all, they can’t “discuss” sexuality topics with the kids, right?).
People engage in activities outside of scouts, that confirm a person’s sexual orientation, without bragging. A person may have a significant other that is the same sex as them. They may go out to eat, to the movies, etc. You know, LIVE, rather than hide. Word then gets around that someone is gay, no bragging involved. Are you saying it’s ok for a straight person to go on a date, but not a gay person, because the gay person is bragging about being gay?
You can be homosexual/ Bisexual / Heterosexaul and be in the scouts?
You can BE any sexual orientation and be in boy scouts. You just can’t tell anyone if you are gay.
You shouldn’t be discussing your sexual orientation with any child.
Well then, straight people shouldn’t talk about their families/spouses either.
Oh gosh, thats right, don’t let them know that a household with a mom and a dad is normal!
Any family is normal these days – 2 moms, 2 dads, 1 of each, only 1.
It’s called EQUALITY. If gays aren’t “allowed” to discuss their home life, then straight people shouldn’t either.
I have no issues with gays going on dates. I have gay friends who go out with my husband and I all the time. No matter how I spin it, there are those who are comfortable going about their daily lives, just as everyone else does, and then there are those who insist up wearing the t-shirts, giving speeches, etc. constantly. I’ve dealt with both in my business.
Many children don’t go around professing their sexuality but instead suffer in silence. Other people often assume or label a child as gay which may or may not be true. The ones being banned are those whose sexual preference has become known to leaders or others involved in scouts. This often happens without the parent ever saying anything about their sexuality. In many small towns everyone knows each other and people often know if someone is in a same-sex relationship.
IF (big if) these kids are being banned solely because it is common knowledge that they are gay, that’s plain wrong. If, however, they are the ones who can’t seem to live and let live, I can understand it.
Do you see it said in the story, that the dad is gay?
no..do you.. ? and if he isn’t I would be shocked
Nothing like judging someone just by how they look!
He can’t help it, god made him do it.(;0)
Too bad that a 9 year old kid has to get dragged into the politics of things. I have many fond memories of scouting and still use things today that I learned as a scout. He is getting cheated out of a wonderful experience to make a political statement. Why can’t we leave the kids out of it? Let them be kids. They will have plenty of time to help solve the problems of the world when they are adults.
Yes, it is too bad that the scouts have turned this into a political statement and stance. They should stay neutral in these matters and stop dragging kids into their political action.
Yes, this young man is being given a wonderful experience of standing up against things that are blatantly wrong. It is a lesson far more important than learning how to cook outside, tie knots or build a pine wood derby car.
Yes, shame on the scouts for making a political statement and for dragging kids into this by singling out American citizens who are very capable leaders. The scouts should let them be kids and stop trying to send the message that there is something wrong with children or parents who are gay. There will be plenty of time for these children to experience discrimination and alienation when they are adults. Why subject them to it now?
“…given the wonderful experience of standing up…”? I would say that propped up would be a lot closer to the truth. Anyone who thinks a 9 year old boy cares about someone’s sexual orientation is sadly mistaken. He cares about canoeing, camping, archery, and making fire without matches. If he is “standing up” for gay rights at 9 years old, he is being heavily coached and thereby being used as a pawn. Shameful.
My daughter is 6, and SHE cares when people are being treated bad for being different than ‘normal’. No, being gay isn’t as obvious as being black, handicapped, or shorter than normal. Kids are smart though, they pick up on bad feelings, hurtful words, and ask questions about it. They are also capable of making up their own minds about the answers they are given, provided the adults in their world care enough to give an answer.
well.. that’s nice that you have a 6 year old daughter and a mother who thinks on exactly the same level.. nice really really nice
You are saying then they do not have the right to their belief’s. Interesting.
Being black is not sinful. Being handicapped is not sinful. There is no comparison here. Being gay is a choice, and it IS sinful. Treating someone bad for being gay is sinful. There is a difference between saying something is wrong and treating someone bad because they are doing something wrong. Children need to be taught the truth so that they can use their minds to make right choices in life. What are we teaching our children these days??? Only the truth will set us free from the lies that bind us. If you want to help our children, teach them the truth.
If being gay is a choice, did you choose to be straight? That comment shows your ignorance.
Who exactly are you to decide what is sinful? Being gay is NOT a choice, ignorance is. May I suggest you try educating yourself on the subject a bit.
You will think what you want to think according to what life has taught you through the words and actions of others…. and who taught them?? Never mind, don’t answer that… just ponder the question if you would. By the way, you have no idea who I am or how much I have studied the subject at hand. What you do know, is that it does not line up with your conclusions on the matter.
According to the Bible, judging others in sinful. Pointing out another’s sin is sinful. Implying that other human beings are “less then” is sinful. Trying to take the splinter from another’s eye while you have a log in yours is sinful. Divorce and living together is sinful according to the Bible. Are you fighting against these practices?
Exactly right… sin is sin. Don’t judge the person who commits sin, but rather judge the sin to be sin itself. Hopefully it will help us keep from committing the sin. Of course, if we don’t want to call sin sin for fear of being called a bigot, then everyone can just keep on sinning with the excuse that they were never taught that it was sin. So if one remains ignorant, they can ignore the truth. hmmm… how ’bout that.
Whose Truth?
Good question. There is only one Truth, so everyone can not be correct. If we truly seek the Truth with an open mind focused on learning the Truth, we will find it. I suggest we all seek the Truth, and I pray we all find it. Notice I did say we all, which includes me, so please don’t think I am suggesting otherwise, as some would. Peace.
The truth is we are going to hell in a hand basket.
You are right, a 9 year old could care less about someones sexual orientation, but with good parents by 9 years old he should have a very good sense of right and wrong, of fairness and equality. The Scouts no longer meet his standards for those things, and he decided not to participate in a group that does not treat people equally or with fairness. The only thing shameful about all this is the Scouts stance on gays.
The actual term is the “could NOT care less”. If it makes you feel any better, everyone gets that one wrong. I’ll stick by my premise that the kid is being used to advance an adult agenda. Let him be a kid.
I remember very well how I felt, when I watched the Blacks in the south being hosed, and beaten. I was not told now to think in any way by parents, I was younger then this young man. Seeing and hear this injustice, is a good part of what made me who I am today.
You’re not being fair to this you man. He knows right from wrong, and he’s standing up for it. I say good for him!
All gay people are not black! Why do people always allude to that!
Get a grip!
He does not know right from wrong at 9 years old. That is why if he were to commit a crime, he could not be tried as an adult. Leave the adult matters to the adults and let the kids be kids. Exploiting children will do nothing to advance the LGBT agenda. In fact, it could have the opposite effect. As an example, I refuse to do business with anyone who uses their kids to hawk their cheesy wares in T.V. commercials.
Bullcrap kids don’t know right from wrong at that age! My daughter knows the difference, and she’s younger than this boy. She was OUTRAGED when she overheard the news talking about the 10-year old who has been charged with manslaughter. She carried on fordays about howkilling is wrong, and that girl shouldn’t have killed the baby.
I guess that I am guilty of being an over protective parent. I worked very hard to shield my kids from that kind of bull crap when they were 6 years old. My kids are both married, have kids, and are productive members of society now, so I must have done something right. I’ll stand with my premise that we need to leave the kids out of it.
Not shameful to all – many would salute the scouts stance on what they obviously feel is an abnormality. Why is it that when others don’t conform to the gay way of thinking how the world should be or think–they are ridiculed and should be ashamed of themselves and go in hiding–but the ones who do agree with and/or are gay are correct and deserve special treatment and because they have emerged from the closet they demand worldwide acceptance and all establishments to welcome them w/open arms–Uh uh there will always be people that believe gay is wrong, and will never accept it as a part of normality. Is this right ? I don’t know…but its a fact.
Actually, the article clearly states the young man is also getting bored with Scouting. It seems like the gay issue is a sideline, and possibly his fathers stance. I know as a young man I learned to think alot like my dad. Its a natural thing, boys wanting to be like their fathers. What I find disappointing is the BDN feeling it needs to make the BSA’s policy on homosexuality front page fodder, especially considering this years referendum question. The BSA has approximately 3 million Scouts and leaders worldwide (Scouts and Scouters serving on military bases and embassys around the globe), so their policy affects only about one percent of the US population. Does the gay community or supporters really need 100 percent approval? Why do people think one groups policy is bigoted? I support the BSA. Its the one place where I don’t have to have homosexuality crammed down my throat.
Yes, he was bored, so what. Boredom and the BSA’s stance of bigotry were factors in his decision. Homosexuality isn’t being crammed down your throat, equality is. Were the women’s libbers cramming women down your throat? Was the racial equality movement shoving blacks down your throat? Look, if you want to go somewhere where you don’t have to worry about equality issues, I am sure there is a Klan meeting somewhere you could attend.
You can’t compare womens suffrage and race to homosexuality.
Oh yes you can.
exactly
I don’t think that this boy and his father fixate on sexual orientation (as the opposition does), but they focus more on discrimination. Many parents discuss these matters openly and honestly with their children. I certainly did with my children from an early age. They were often wanting to take a stance on issues even from an early age. I raised me sons to be aware of injustice and discrimination.
Maybe in a homophobic household, with homophobic parents, it would seem strange that a child of nine would know about these matters enough to take a stand, but in families that embrace others regardless of their sexual orientation, it would be very normal for a children to want to stand up against something like this in our society that is unjust and wrong.
What is shameful are religious zealots who heavily coach their children to judge and condemn other American citizens, teaching them to hate, discriminate and alienate from birth in the name of God and Jesus. That is shameful.
So, if I focused on teaching my kids about sports, music, manners, and how to be a kid, I was the head of a homophobic house hold? Phobia implies fear. I disagree with what I feel is a lifestyle choice, I am certainly not afraid of gays. Please remember, if the LGBT community doesn’t respect my right to have a difference of opinion, that makes them the bigots.
They aren’t trying to keep you from living according to your beliefs. You are advocating discrimination against them because you insist that all Americans must live by your creed and if they don’t then they are “less than.”
You can have an opinion but when you use that opinion to fight against other Americans and keep them from having the same rights and privileges, that is bigotry.
How have I used my opinion to fight against other Americans? Where is your proof? Where is your evidence? Do you have anything other than suspicion based solely on my belief that we should leave the kids out of it?
how about that they learn spirituality.. learn what the Bible teaches us.. learn to know the difference between the law and sin.. you people have taken a sin and made it into a rallying point.. you have used hate and bigotry to describe those who disagree with your sin.. when it’s exactly the opposite.. advancing sin on kids is just another sin.. yet you keep doing it over and over and over.. it’s not discrimination and it isn’t alienation and it’s not political.. it’s a sin.. that’s it .. simple ..
“It’s a sin….that’s it…..simple.”
It’s the same with all you religious zealots – “it’s a SIN!”
End of discussion. You’re right and anyone who doesn’t agree with you is wrong AND a sinner.
End of story.
Doesn’t matter to you what other people think. If they don’t agree with your religious BELIEFS, their arguments are automatically dismissed as irrelevant.
And when your arguments are biased, or logically indefensible, you simply default to the “Jesus told me so” nonsense.
People like yourself are the least Christian of any I can think of.
Your comments are irrelevant…
Thanks for proving my point
To anyone not christian, yours are as well.
You act like Christianity is all the counts… What about everyone else’s beliefs? Those don’t count?
Den,
Are all beliefs equal? Can you tell us which beliefs were the most formative of Western civilization?
Aren’t they all equal, esp before the law?
Wow, now there’s something to think about. All religions are equal, no matter what it espouses, no matter how much or little impact it’s had in promoting love, hate, feeding the sick, exploiting the weak, loving and fearing God or promoting devil worship and chaos. Atheism would become the State stance, because there are religions that take all the above forms and more. So in order to be completely separate ( remember sep. of church and state) and honor non-deists and pagans, devil worshipers, animal sacrificers and such, we should mimic the former Bolshevik/Soviet approach, silencing Christians, Jews and any other religion seeking to influence people and laws.
Our Declaration of Independence makes references to “our Creator” and “certain Truths” that are “self evident.” It was a reference to the soul, if you will, of Western thought. It will anger and hurt people who feel they have “evolved” above a Creator to hear this, but religions are not equal with regard to the “self-evident Truth”.
Silencing? No. But I would prefer that, before the law, all religions were equal. If the practices of any of these religions violate the law or individual civil rights, the government can and should intervene.
Worship as *you* believe. Let me worship as I believe. Our government shouldn’t decide which of us is “correct.”
So by your arrogance, Christianity is more important than other beliefs?
No, no not arrogance as much as telling the truth. Sorry, if it offends your sense of “all religions are equal.”
Here’s a couple of your equal religions. How about “The Church of Euthanasia” which preaches suicide to save the planet–honestly. The Hale-Bop religion is known as Heaven’s Gate, which espouses a safer approach to life-ending sacrifice, which is to off-yourself as the comet goes by. These are real religions and there are countless others–all equal to Christianity mind you. Forget the contributions like the first Universities in the world, networks of advanced hospitals, feeding the world’s poor, promoting freedom even at risk of death, responsibility for any knowledge and literature that was preserved in monasteries through the Dark ages of Paganism.
Last time I checked, the bible teaches us to be good to our fellow man, to turn the other cheek, to help those who need help.
Have we not all one father? Has not one God created us?Malachi 2.10
How can you believe that the Bible tells us to hate our fellow man, if we are all brothers under the All Mighty?
When a stranger
sojourns with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. The stranger
who sojourns with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you
shall love him as yourself. Leviticus 19.33-34Does your Bible tell you to hate someone because they are different?
If one is not christian, your quotes and preaching are irrelevant.
If one is not christian, all the vitriol and hate slung around in the name if christianity is irrelevant.
One doesn’t have to be Christian to study the Bible inside and out. My Jewish friends know more about the historical background of the Bible than many Christians I know.
Yes it’s a sin, we’re going to burn for eternity in the flames of hell..why? Because God loves us! Hahahaha. Give me a break!
They have taken what *you* call a sin and made it a secular rallying point.
Personally, I wish the BSA didn’t exclude gays, but that’s their call. However, I won’t be letting my boys join Scouts, I won’t be giving money to their fundraisers, and I will move to keep them from using my town’s public facilities for meetings.
It’s not politics. Most people know/have someone close in their lives that is gay.
It is too bad that the BSA can’t simply eliminate this wrong-headed policy and stop discriminating against gay scouts.
The policy does nothing to protect children, and does real harm in that it teaches that ostracizing others from your group due to how they’re built is acceptable.
SCOTUS says they don’t have to change. 2000 ruling
You are correct, they do not have to change.
They SHOULD change, though. The policy is not protecting children, and sets a bad example for how we should treat one another.
Way to stand up for what you believe in Christopher!!
and a bit of the 9-year-old’s boredom.
Where does it say he has a gay father?
Is there a question on any application asking if you’re gay? People just need to do their job without discussing their personal lives. My father worked for 35 years in a company, no one ever knew he was married and had 10 children. At his funeral his co workers said he came to work everyday, did his job and left. When he came home he was a husband and a father.
Double-standard. Did he wear a wedding ring? Should, for example, a teacher not have a photo of her/his spouse on her/his desk? Should a woman shroud herself if she’s pregnant and showing? Are there never functions where the parents show up to these boy scout events?
You’re being ridiculous.
No he did not wear a wedding ring and guess, what I don’t either. And no I don’t or did he have pictures of our families on display at work. Our family is very close but we choose to be private. Do you have a problem with that?
Don’t have a problem with that, but I also don’t think you’re being honest. Either way, many straight people do those sorts of things and no one thinks twice about it. It’s a double standard if you say that a gay person is flaunting themselves if they do the exact same thing.
What a valid comparison you make! What state did you live in, where your father could be fired for being married and having children?
He never said his father could be fired for being married with kids. He was making a point that his father simply went about his business at work without sharing his personal life.
In 35 years he was never proud enough of his wife and children to mention them or their accomplishments to co-workers? Odd…not necassarily wrong…just odd.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkaIb9uifLI
what do we want?
GAYS IN SCOUTS!
when do we want it?
TIMMMMAAAAY
I wouldn’t want my sons alone in the dark woods with bigots or homophobic people who want to discriminate against and alienate American citizens. I am sure I am not alone in that regard. The Scouts are a dying entity anyway.
You prefer to have someone change their belief’s. IF they die then it will be with a strong belief, instead of those who call other bigots and try to try and force them to change their beliefs.
Is not that the same thing, call it hetrophobia.
If rightfully calling someone a bigot is trying to force them to change their beliefs, then what do you consider purposefully and institutionally burdening gay people because you disagree with them?
You can believe as you wish, but when your belief is used to limit the liberty and freedom, and to discriminate against other American citizens, that is when the label is appropriate. Bigotry in action.
They are a private group. Next you will want to force your belief’s in Chuches that believe in the Bible. So many people using the word bigotry, should look it up. Since you are trying to force them to believe as you do.
They are a private group and can do as they wish. Others can speak out against their policies. I don’t accept your creed as my own, but I allow you to live by your creed because that is your right. Can you say the same about the GBLT community?
Yes, that is others right to speak out.
If black boys weren’t allowed because it’s a private group, that would be okay with you? How about Mexicans, or Chinese? French?
When will you folks realize that no one is trying to force anyone to change their beliefs? It’s all about allowing ALL humans the same equal rights, regardless of sexual orientation.
What anyone chooses to do in the privacy of their bedroom is not your business any more than it is mine. Live and let live I say.
The BSA does not beleive in this so the fact is, you are trying to change their beliefs. What they choose to believe in is their right, stop trying to change it.
So it was wrong to pass civil rights laws in the 1960s guaranteeing equal rights for all Americans regardless of race, because that forced people who believed the races shouldn’t mingle and wanted nothing to do with nonwhite people to “change their beliefs”? People should still be free to treat some Americans as more equal than others?
Man you are dead on! I appreciate your common sense!
Standing up for what is right is not bigotry…. make your own choices, but don’t expect the rest of us to jump on the same wagon that you are on. Just because we don’t want to conform to your way of thinking and doing does not give cause for labels. Step back and read your post and see that the hate post came from you!
It IS bigotry. People just use the bible as an excuse for it.
The Bible is not an excuse it is a belief.
The bible teaches folks like you to mince words. The whole law, according to your bible, can be summed up in “Do unto others as you would have them to do unto you.” That’s pretty straight forward.
Actually it is mostly fiction, and still stands as one of the worst moral codes in existence today. Hey all…marry your rapists. Also, kill your children if they disrespect you. Also, sacrifice your son to alleviate the perceived sins of others. Sick
A belief in the rambling, strange tales made up by uneducated cave-dwelling goat-herders as they sat around the ole campfire in the evenings, looking up at the stars and assuming the world was flat. Then in the NT, belief in the legends about the “David Koresh” of his time . . .
No one asking you to enter into a same-sex marriage or relationship. No one is trying to keep you from freely living out your life based on your belief system.You are trying to force other Americans to live by your creed. You are saying and doing things against American citizens who should have the same rights and privileges that you have had.
The only hate I see is horrible things being said about beautiful people just because of the person that they choose to love. I don’t hate you, I feel sorry for you that you cannot see the beauty in these people and their families. I feel the same anguish that Jesus felt when he saw this same type of thinking and acting.
They are not saying they hate gays. A great way of twisting words and beliefs, would not you call that bigotry.
There is no love in words like deviant. There is no love in trying to limit the lives of others. There is no love in saying and believing negative things about people based on who they love.
If you love someone, you will support them, fight for their rights and want to fully include them in the society in which one lives.
These people are beautiful. Never said otherwise. I am just saying if someone doesn’t like the rules of an organization they are free to leave it. Where are the rights for those who choose to build an organization with their own set of rules?? No need to comment. I am not really asking for a reply,…I am simply posing the question for you to think about. And you notice, I am not name calling here, nor am I putting anyone down. Keep the peace.
Seems that he must have been influenced by adults. I say that the Boy Scouts should stick with the policies they have.
Seems like the only way kids learn to hate others in through influence of adults.
a 1000 likes
Would you allow them to camp in the woods with someone who is in to S&M? Or is that ok as long as they don’t tell you?
WTF? How do you know what ANYONE does in the bedroom? Do they fill out a form? If they like sexual positions you disagree with, would you call them deviants?
I agree with the article… cub scouts in particular have no reason to discuss sex. Gay does not = child molester. Regardless of sexual preference, the topic is off-limits for scouts.
good comment
Neither does boyscout mean child molester. Although some in this thread are using that as a reason. Scouts have the right to believe as they do. They do not force their belief on others, so why are others trying to force their belief’s on the Scouts.
“do not force their beliefs on others”? I’d say the impression made on millions of young minds being shaped by the BSA’s “beliefs” is rather “forced,” since the scouts are under the age of consent. Yes, I’d say they are certainly forcing a belief in discrimination and “differentness” — aka hatred and bigotry — on young minds.
Then you must not think it is valid to call a gay person a sexual deviant.
What two people enjoy doing – in the privacy of their home, is none of my business if it does not affect me or my kids. Man, woman, group, or animal. :)
Deviancy is all a matter of perspective.
I expect my kids to not hear about it while canoeing and discuss canoeing (and not the sexual exploits of the adults).
I agree, but I think gay people are unfairly sexualized through no fault of their own. Suddenly if a guy has a boyfriend/husband or a woman has a girlfriend/wife, all people can think about is sex. Some purposefully do this by referring to them as homosexuals instead of gay in order to minimize gays as being only about sexual activity. Like I said elsewhere, no one thinks anything of the straight teacher who has a photo of his/her spouse on his/her desk, but can you imagine if a gay teacher did that? Some parents would be outraged. The teacher would be accused of indoctrinating the children and flaunting his/her sexuality. I think it’s a double-standard.
Great comment. You are right about it being a double-standard…
” I agree, but I think gay people are unfairly sexualized through no fault of their own”.
I have to respectfully (this time : ) disagree with you wolfndeer. Let me first say that I have no issue with gay people. However, please consider your statement that I copied. Many gay people constantly ” sexualize” themselves. Look at the parades they throw in downtown Boston, Portland and heck even little ole Bangor. The “kiss-in” at that chicken fast food place to protest is another case in point. There are others.
It’s almost the constant craving of attention that turns off many folks. It always makes me wonder what will happen once there is marriage equality, how will many of them gain the attention they crave? I’m a live and let live kind of guy and will vote for gay marriage. I do however, think it would serve the cause much better if it wasn’t so “in your face” all the time. I do have some gay friends and they agree with me.
But the kiss-ins and the parades are, to gay people, politically necessary. If they never came out of the closet, they wouldn’t have gotten as far as they have today. If they continue to hide, they wouldn’t get their rights and protections.
I think straight people engage in just as much “in your face” stuff and PDA — if not more. You don’t think twice is a straight teacher has a photo of his/her spouse on their desk, you don’t think twice if a straight couple is kissing at the airport, you don’t think twice if you see an advertisement with a straight couple holding hands.
It’s more rare to see gay people do these kinds of things, so when it does happen, it makes you pause. When straight people do it, you don’t notice it because it happens so frequently.
That’s just my opinion.
My opinion is that nobody should have to “hide” anymore. Unfortunately in today’s society, if something of the past is deemed wrong, we don’t just correct it we have a full pendulum swing to the opposite side. I work at a fortune 100 company. We are constantly having diversity month, gay month, black history month, women’s month or whatever the pc flavor of the month is etc. What this means to many of us is the “anybody but white- hetro male” month. It just gets tiring and distracts the company from the real objective, which should be making money and treating everybody well and equally.
I have always maintained this perspective: We will never be truly equal in this country until everyone is treated fairly without duress, nor with special treatment. We are not there yet.
PS. I did not vote on the gay marriage question last time. I guess you could say I was ambivalent on the issue. The recent commercials with the WWII vet and the couple that have twin boys one straight, one gay were very tastefully and respectfully shown and I believe they hit home with average people. The folks in the ad were reasonable people from everyday families who stated their case. THAT imo, is the way to change attitudes. Not with the vitriolic, chaotic,” in your face” protesting, attention seekers that is so much more the norm.
delete
That was my point. How do we know what people do in their bedroom. If they think homosexuality is sexual deviance, then they might be shocked at the “deviance” going on with heterosexuals that isn’t “out in public”. What are they going to do, start asking on the application if they are in to kink, swapping, etc.?
Is any one shocked that an organization that is heavily influenced and financed by Christian and Republican organizations is so anti-homosexual?
Just steer clear and let their own hate and bigotry eventually run the organization into the ground.
Private organization.
I understand that and nothing in my comment said otherwise.
there’s that hate and bigotry stuff again.. you have it wrong.. wow imagine that… there is no hate and bigotry .. well there is but it comes from your side of the fence…. it’s you who hate .. you hate that folks don’t agree with your sin.. you hate it that God has set a rule and laws that you should follow.. you don’t do it so you hate it… I know lot’s gay people.. I don’t hate any of them ..several are very good friends of mine.. I hate the sin.. not the sinner.. and I’m not even a bible thumper.. but I am not afraid to tell it like it is, there is no forum where we should not express what God has commanded.. take it or leave it.. doesn’t matter to me.. but the hate thing.. that’s just not true
So you are literalist I take it? Every “command” in the bible should be heeded? Even those regarding it’s positions on slavery, women’s rights, etc..?
Or are you cherry picking which bits to follow and which to ignore?
Does a 9 year old actually know what it means to be truly gay????
He obviously knows what it means to be singled out and picked on for not being ‘normal’ according to the BSA definition of normal. I think that’s enough.
His father must be sooo proud. S/
they are “not equipped” to handle this matter??.. It’s 2012…time to learn..they are proud and gay, and here to stay…
I doubt the year matters .. a sin was a sin in the old testament… and then still a sin in the new testament.. and it’s a sin in 2012.. what changed that caused God to change the Law.. ? the answer is ” nothing changed” it’s still the Law.. Sodom and Gomorrah , that would be a good story for you all to read..
Your god is not civil law… it’s a choice you’ve accepted so you can feel superior to others.
Nothing more.
just don’t agree with you..reading stories wont change the way I feel..being homosexual does NOT make you a bad person..They are in every walk of life..always has been..always will be..how you deal with it is your choice. I choose not to judge.
Operative word being “story.”
Remember the Roman Catholic Church has now, and has always had a policy against allowing “openly gay” priests. That did not stop them from hosting one of the largest (if not the largest) number os sexual abuse incidents attributed to one institution.
Your three sons WILL be exposed to gay folks. They can be open and out gays (not so dangerous) or closeted self-hating gays (a bit more risky) but it your sons are molested, statistics say it will be by a family member, or family friend, who is “straight.”
BTW even if you are correct and it isn’t a good idea to send children into the woods overnight with gay men, would you rather not have them allowed to tell you they are gay so you can make your own choice as to allowing your sons to participate?
There are gays in scouting now. There is no policy against them being there. There is just a policy against them letting you find out they are gay.
I commend this 9 year old for his decision. He is showing a hell of a lot more backbone than the scouts for standing up for what is right.
My son and I have discussed the issue extensively, and he has decided to remain in scouting for now. He recognizes that his local scouting program is run by caring people who only have the best interests of the scouts in mind. He has, however decided that he will not participate in any fundraisers that benefit the national BSA, due to their discriminatory policies. He will not be selling popcorn because, as he says, “if you hurt them in their wallet, they might pay attention.”
I encourage those of you who want to change the scouts discriminatory policies to think about what steps you can honestly take. Don’t just stop supporting the organization. Let them know why you are unhappy with their stance. Petition your local council and let them know where you stand.
I left the Girl Scouts (which I loved) because there was rampant favoritism in the organization at the troop level. I felt that I needed to take a stand. I missed the activities, but I would have missed my principles more if I had stayed.
Good for you and your son. Others in this discussion board will say that you are coaching your son. On person suggests that it’s “shameful” for your son to arrive at these enlightended positions with your “help.” I say that children who learn about life from caring parents can form their own opinions about what is right and wrong without it being considered “shameful” “coaching.” You say you and your son have been discussing the issue extensively. That’s what being a good parent is. I wonder what the idiots who accuse this father — and perhaps you — of coaching impart to their children? Surely the bigotry these folks spout is as influential as your “coaching sessions” with your son.
I have petitioned them.. I told them that I agree with them 100% .. this activity is a sin.. and supporting it is a sin.. God set the rules . I didn’t and you didn’t.. neither of us has the right to change them.. if you think you do .. take it up with Him.. good luck
Paul; doesn’t the golden rule state that you should love thy neighbor as thyself?
How can you, as a christian, honestly believe that a policy of discrimination is a good thing? … that teaching our children it is OK to discriminate against their fellows because they are different? What lesson do we teach when we teach discrimination and bigotry?
Those like paul do not believe in the golden rule… it gets in the way of how they choose to view god and country.
You might familiarize yourself with the word “discriminate”.
Your god is a choice, nothing more.
Ted, Belief in God is a choice Paul makes, and we have to respect his choice, even though we may or may not agree with it. As one who grew up in a Christian household, I believe in turning the other cheek and think that we can give Paul the chance to voice his thoughts and opinions, and then discuss them against yours and mine.
No I don’t.
Considering christians have no respect for those who aren’t christian, that’s hypocrisy at it’s finest.
And using someone called “Paul” as your source for what you think others have to do is silly…
As long as we’re safe from having your religion enforced as civil law, there’s really no discussion to be had. You are welcome to your religion and I will fight by your side for your right to have it, but I will not be subject to it or its tenets.
Nor should you be held subject to it or its tenets. People should also respect your perspective, your beliefs, and your moral code.
paul (who commented earlier) has been systematically wrong in his interpretation of Christian beliefs. I could not agree more that many Christians show no respect for their fellow man. Pushing one’s beliefs onto another is not going to help us, as a society, move forward. Mutual respect and discussion will.
When your “moral code” harms law-abiding Americans, no one “should” have to respect it in the least.
The Christian faith gives many solace in times of need, gives daily affirmation to live life to the fullest, helps express charity and giving in ways some folks need.
However, ANY Christian who lobbies state or federal governments to treat law-abiding citizens poorly under law has crossed into the land of theocracy, and no American should have to be subject to that. Such persons deserve all the derision and “disrespect” they receive.
Ted, I could not agree with you more. Shoving your beliefs on another is the wrong application of faith and should be shunned by all.
I am always amazed at how many push the hate dogma as Christian canon, as opposed to the uplifting portions of their belief.
I’m sure your comment is a product of your experience, but that’s a really broad brush saying “…christians have no respect for those who aren’t christian.” That is true of many, but probably not most and certainly not all.
So is acting on urges, right?
The actions do not make one gay. Are you really that ignorant?
Sorry… your choice of mythology destroys the “choice argument” entirely.
Ya can’t have it both ways, Ted. If acting on angry impulses is a choice, one can’t use those urges to say, “well, Geez, that’s just who I am” to justify an aggressive behavior. Same with sexual behavior. Just because your buddies agree that choice isn’t part of homosexual behavior, doesn’t mean it’s so. What other sexual behaviors, or any behaviors, can exclude choice as having any role. This “you can’t say the word choice” regarding homosexual behavior is a taboo you need to justify immoral behavioral choices.
I don’t care if it’s a choice or not… the choice of religion (protected with more “special rights” than anything else) makes the choice argument moot.
By definition, being gay is not a behavior… not an action. If you are celibate your entire life, but are only attracted to members of the same sex, you are gay. No actions necessary.
As for comparison of gay relationships with “aggressive behavior”, you’ve proven yourself moronic.
It’s not about choice… it’s about law, consent, and governance. Your views of morality are, as SCOTUS has pointed out, of no consequence. They don’t matter.
So is joining the BSA, nothing more.
Aye, that it is.
and a bit of the 9-year-old’s boredom
Bruce, I agree that that point weakened the boy’s case for leaving.
The 9 year was watching the National News, bet it wasn’t FOX NEWS.
Good for this young man for taking a stand and having the courage of his convictions. Discrimination is just plain wrong.
So, you want to discrinate in the Scouts because they believe differently.
How is it discriminating against the scouts for this young man to decide he does not believe in the policy of the scouts and leaving? Please explain.
You are discriminating against those whose moral standards differ from yours and question their the right to adhere to those standards.
No, I am disagreeing with them, period. That is still allowed here in the US of A. The fact that I maintain my own beliefs is not taking away from their rights whatsover. The “logic” you use is an attempt to manipulate me and others into agreeing with you, and that is just not going to happen.
If that is the case, then stop objecting to their exercise of their beliefs, let it be and move on.
As a former Pinewood Derby Winner myself (1973) – I applaud this kid’s action.
ugh
Thank you, Christopher. With liberty and justice for all.
and a bit of the 9-year-old’s boredom
Who are you to assume that the boy is bored? You are dismissive of him and his stand… no wonder kids think some adults are unfair.
The article clearly states one issue is the “9 year old’s boredom” with the Scouts……
I stand corrected…haste makes waste and also leads to occasional posts without credence.
No, your post(s) have credence……I believe the headline is bias towards one of the reported reasons for this young man’s decision to withdraw his membership…..the reporter speaks to a lack of interest or boredom, being restless with “stuff” to do in scouts, spending more time with friends who apparently are not scouts themselves and the policy re: gays also…..just leaves the opinion open that some reasons seem to be reasonable for a 9 year old and maybe the reference to gay policy was influenced by an adult(s)…..my humble opinion….
Read the article that was a quote from it.
seems like the girl scouts don’t have a problem with this– and deviant? bigotry is deviant
They may not have a problem with sexuality but they certainly allow people who worship something other than God (some say the devil) to lead a troop. And when the Girl Scouts were challenged on this, it’s because God does not have to be used in the pledge.
Worship the devil? What in the world?
You have a fantastic imagination.
NO imagination needed when you have Wiccan’s leading a girl scout troop in Central Maine.
If you’re going to spout BS at least spell it correctly, it’s Wiccan.
What are you telling me you don’t believe that Wiccan’s aren’t here in Maine and they don’t exist within our community?
Don’t put words in my mouth.
You’re the one who indicated it was BS: “If you’re going to spout BS”
Oh we are definitely here. We do NOT, however, worship any form of Satan.
I hail Satan. I also don’t see whats wrong with that. I do see what is wrong with the “white-light” religions, however.
Wicken is not devil worship.
Most Christians believe anyone worshiping any higher power other than God is worshiping the devil.
Then they are incorrect.
You are right. Its more like Christianity.
And Wiccans are bad HOW, precisely? There’s no Satan worship there and if you think so, then you know absolutely NOTHING about what Wicca is about.
Oh my god their Wicca. They should be burned at the stake…get over it
gays are not “sexual deviants” and you are sadly misinformed about that. I would not want my sons in the woods with bigots.
another one trying to change the Scouts belief’s. I guess intolerance goes in your same direction
Explain to us, Carol, how using the reproductive organs in homosexual behaviors is not deviant to their intended purpose. Try to do so without resorting to newspeak and slogans, and without referring to orientation as any thing but what it is: powerful urges.
Powerful urges, and more importantly choices…..people have to choose whether they act on them right? Being gay is a chosen deviant lifestyle. You dont see animals chosing to be gay, they pay attention to natural order….
Did you choose to be straight? Or just ignorant?
Too funny! Your comment would indicate that being gay is not a choice! HaHaHa Any behavior is a choice, unless you are just out of control….
You didn’t answer my question. Do you choose to be straight? No. You just ARE.
hahaha.. but what about the ignorant part? I think that was a choice.
your animal comment is wrong actually. There are 1,500 animal species that practice homosexuality.
So, are they really homosexual or do they adapt to conditions so that they can procreate to sustain the species? Of course, humans can’t so that. Could you please provide references that I can look up? Thanks!
It’s pretty common knowledge – If you want to learn more, google is your friend, but here is a link:
http://www.health.am/sex/more/1500-animal-species-homosexuality/
btw, homosexuals can reproduce – it’s just not the “traditional” way. Embryos can be implanted, sperm can be injected vaginally. Men can have surrogate mothers to help – I wouldn’t be too worried about the population of the world. Homosexuals are very much a minority, and heterosexuals reproduce like rabbits.
Actually I believe that there are over 100 animals who show interest in the same gender.
and so ya know….they can’t play any reindeer games either….
Have you read the research on over 100 different animal species who engage in homosexual behaviors? Nope, guess you haven’t!
Someone else just said there are 1500 animal species that exhibit this type of behavior and I asked them to help me by giving their source information, yours might be much easier to research, can you provide the same? Thanks!
One canal for the miracle of birth and a seperate one to expel the waste. A reverse polarization.
My dog humps everything.
That’ll stop when it meets a reverse polar bear.
That’ll stop when it meets a reverse polar bear.
So quacken, assuming you have a spouse, you only engage in “reproductive” activity? You never perform this act as a result of a “powerful urge” for pleasure? And the manner in which you engage could only result in fertilization and not a tummy ache, correct? Deviant, much like delicious, is a subjective term and if you answered anything but yes to my first question, some may consider you a deviant.
I guess the debate shall always remain – are these urges conscious decisions or not? Personally, I would have a hard time imagining, given the social stigmas which have surrounded the issue, as reflected in some comments on this board, that someone would choose to be homosexual.
Yeah, like the testicles are made to produce sperm to be shared with other men.
Many men who suffer from erectile dysfunction must deviate from the standard ways of having sex. I guess that they are sexual deviants?
I personally really enjoy deviant sexual activities and would recommend them to all my friends.
So I guess that all the heterosexuals that are into so called “sodomy” are also sexual deviants??
I think I may be a deviant…quick call the police, lock me up, make me change my wicked ways!
another morally bankrupt child heading in the wrong direction.. sad. being proud for wrong choices is lousy leadership and mentoring.. those who believe in the teachings of the bible know where this is headed.. and most will refuse to get on that bus.. as it should be.. the rest make those decisions and will face the consequences.. we all will have to .
being proud for wrong choices is lousy leadership and mentoring, indeed. I hope the BSA eliminates this hurtful policy that does no good, and allows gay scouts one day.
Those who believe in the ideals of our nation know where this is headed— we shall include gays and lesbians as deserving of the same rights and liberties as any other American citizen, and our nation will be stronger for it.
That “child” is a better man than you.
I would rather my son spend a weekend with gay men than with religious bigots such as you.
This all really nets down to a group of sexually deviate people “Gays” trying to convince the rest of the population “Normal/Heterosexual” people that their lifestyle is ok and acceptable. You can pass all the legislation you want, give all the rights you want, but the fact remains, the gay lifestyle is wrong and is a deviation from the natural order of things. Gay people are crying out for acceptance, and no matter what laws you pass, they will never be happy, because they know that what they are doing is not an acceptable lifestyle.
Sounds like the bigots are crying out for acceptance.
I doubt that your comment will gather much attention other than , at least for me, I don’t know if God has a beard and I don’t know if He lives in the clouds.. but I know he knows you and he knows me.. good enough ?
No, you missed the point. My comment was an attempt to point out the fact that a lot of people still think of God this way, in the same way a lot of people still think about gays.
Outdated thinking.
Your original comment didn’t make the connection between God and outdated thinking about gays.
How do you know that God is a “he”?
Because a woman wouldn’t/couldn’t ever screw things up so badly. :)
I was thinking more along the lines of a woman couldn’t be as cruel as that, but yours works too.
please dude… women are experts in emotional cruelty!
???
Michelle Bachmann ya thats the ticket.
Because Jesus calls him His Heavenly Father . . .
This link pretty much clears up the GOD question…http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o
That was awesome, I love George Carlin! Thanks for my chuckle of the day!
No, it is not “good enough”.
You also don’t “know” that a god even exists.
DADT was overturned in the military as unconstitutional and therefore it is unconstitutional in the Boy Scouts.
The military is a government organization, and BSA is a private one. Can a private organization’s policies be considered unconstitutional? Don’t get me wrong, I think the policy is wrong, and I will not support BSA as long as it’s in effect. I’m just wondering if the fact that BSA is a private organization changes things.
Yes, a private organization’s policies can be unconstitutional if they’re open to the public. For example, a restaurant can’t refuse to serve gay people. The reason I think the BSA can get away with it is that they cite religious and moral missions in their group — that is the purpose. So they can say that being gay conflicts with the mission, but a restaurant on the other hand is there to provide a service for consumers and sexual orientation doesn’t impact that.
Not true. BSA is not open to the public. The public cannot just walk in as they please. It is opened to the public to join if they agree with the standards and mission of the BSA.
No, they are a private organization. The Supreme Court held up their belief’s.
This is incorrect. DADT was overturned, but not as unconstitutional. It was overturned because it was a policy that did harm to our military for no good reason.
That is absurd. Would you send your daughter with a lesbian troop leader? Just because their gay doesn’t mean they’re child molestors. I have a son I hope he has an open mind to the many different types of people who make up this world.
they may be politically incorrect. but they are morally spot on
No, they aren’t.
I wouldn’t call bigotry moral.
BSA teaches Scouts to adhere to the beliefs of their faith, and at the same time respect the beliefs of others. Scouts are not taught to call themselves “morally right” and everyone else “morally wrong”.
What does “morally right” mean to a Scout who worships in a church that allows openly gay clergy and blesses openly gay couples? How does that Scout fulfill his duty to be Reverent in his own faith when BSA does not respect the values of his own church?
BSA’s policy banning gays violates BSA’s own teaching about Reverence and the respect of others beliefs.
favoritism which equalled to some girls being left out and treated as “less than.” No help from the upper levels of scouting, so I left.
Good for him. He probably has a family member who happens to be gay (like most of us do, whether you know it or not) and it’s great that he’s sticking up for them.
” and a bit of the 9-year-old’s boredom ” this is more than likely. It is their right as a private organization. Trying to force them to change their belief’s.
I’m not trying to force the BSA to do the right thing. I’m simply hoping that they see how silly their policy is. It does nothing to protect children, and it sends the message to our children that it’s okay to discriminate against people.
Absurd. It sends the message that moral principles do matter to the organization.
who said God has a beard?
Didn’t LePage say something about that?
I’d pull my kids out in a heartbeat if they were being lead by someone as bigoted as you.
The kid said he was bored with scouting that is one of the reason’s he left. I’m sure that was probably the main reason
Let the gays join the girl scouts!
Let the bigots join the klan!
Seriously— gays are not transgendered. You should take some time to actually meet and get to know some real gay people, you might find them surprisingly normal and harder to demonize.
You could state the same thing about adulterers and thieves. They look just like you and I.
Except that adulterers and thieves, even murders, can get married as long as it’s an opposite-sex marriage.
and they can pick peas if they belong to them.
How offensive, to equate people gays and lesbians with thieves and people who act unethically.
Of course it is offensive. The sinner is always offended when his delight in sin is scrutinized.
There is nothing sinful in finding supportive, committed love in this world.
The Gay agenda wants to infilitrate everything, even though they say different. A Mass. inmate (murdered wife) just won a lawsuit to have a sex change operation courtesy of taxpayer $$, where Gay Marriage is now law. Boy Scout Oath “On my HONOR, I will do my best to do my duty to GOD and my Country and obey the Scout Law*, to help other people at all times; to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight. *Boyscout Law: Trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obesdient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverant. So I feel that this guy was bored because not every meeting can be a camping trip and quite possibly coaxed from others on the Gay agenda and the liberal media eats it up. I feel like the new but old again (ancient Rome) Phobia is “Christianphobia” and Christians are verbally abused for believing what they always believed in God and his Holy Bible that is His inspired word. People who like to cherry pick Bible verses to try and prove their point are not intellectualy honest, and that is not how the Bible is suppose to be read, like any other text.
Gay agenda? That’s the funniest thing I have heard all morning. How about the Christian agenda? The straight agenda? The bigoted agenda?
What the “gay agenda” looks like:
http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution.html
Wait, that’s not it. Did you not get the memo? We have a massive home redecoration operation at 6 followed by Mean Girls at 7:30.
Sweetie, gays are already everywhere. No need to infiltrate.
Wow … you mean they are everywhere?? Are homosexuals the latest evolutionary step of mankind? How did they get everywhere if they weren’t everywhere before and they were born that way?? Here is an epiphany for you. Homosexuality is a learned behavior. It is reprobate behavior and those with moral standards that reject homosexual activity are not going to “evolve” to accept these perversions as “normal”.
Keep it in your bedroom where it belongs. Otherwise it has no more validity than the argument of a practitioner of beastiality seeking approval for a public display.
The good part for those that believe in evolution: If the gay lifestyle is a normal evolutionary process, someday the human race will cease to exist…..there will be no procreation, no children to carry on the species……
No one is saying that being gay is the next evolutionary step. What a stupid and ridiculous thing to say.
I totally agree with you!!
LOL We will fall into ruin long before that.
No, your backwards antiquated thinking is what is learned. There have been gay people throughout history and there will continue to be gay people in the further. There is homosexuality across the animal kingdom as well.
You didn’t think long enough on what I stated. If homosexual people are everywhere now to the point we are to regard it as “normal”, then where did they come from? A more people being born homosexual now?
They came out of the closet. It’s a simple matter of visibility. They’ve always existed, but they weren’t always able to be open about it.
That is an unsubstantiated assertion.
No, it’s not. Homosexuality was once criminalized in many parts of the world. Also, for example, they were rounded up in the holocaust as well. They could be fired from their jobs for being gay — this can still happen in parts of the country. It wasn’t until gays started coming out of the closet that things began to change. There is nothing unsubstantiated about that.
Then you should be able to substantiate the numbers here in the US and what they were expected to be , say, 50 years ago.
Numbers of what? Like somehow gays are counted in the census? Use your brain and think objectively, quit letting your disdain for gay people override rational thoughts.
You are back to your empty assertions. Time to move on.
Look, you can say the grass is blue all you want, but it doesn’t make it so. Homosexuality used to be criminalized, so obviously less people will be open about their sexual orientation. Now that it is not, people are free to come out and be open without repercussion.
There is nothing empty about that. It’s common sense.
Produce the factual stats or move on.
Point goes to wolfndeer.
Epiphany: (feeling) a sudden realization of great truth… And where are you getting your information from?? ‘ Homosexuality is a learned behavior” So are you saying the children are taught to be gay. And I suppose we are teaching them that? Research suggests that it is by a combination of genetic, hormonal, and environmental influences,[13] with biological factors involving a complex interplay of genetic factors and the early uterine environment. And they would keep their sexual preference to themselves if they didn’t have to fight for their equal rights!
I think good science is beginning to dispel your myths. We are seeing a better database to work with now and it doesn’t look good for the “born that way” crowd.
http://www.aolnews.com/2010/10/17/study-gay-parents-more-likely-to-have-gay-kids/
Don’t pick and choose. If you’re going to cite science, cite the entire body of it. While it isn’t agreed upon that people are born gay, it is agreed upon by the scientific community that it is innate and immutable — meaning, it isn’t something people choose and it isn’t something that can be changed.
There is no such agreement in the scientific community. That is why there is a plethora of studies, past and present to explore these issues. There has been no “homosexual gene” or marker discovered yet.
You don’t know how genes work if you claim there could be such thing as a gay gene. Genes don’t work in isolation. They were together like a chorus or symphony.
Yes, obviously there are multiple studies. Some get affirmed and some get discarded. But there is absolutely agreement in the scientific community that homosexuality is not a choice. Saying it is not a choice does not automatically mean that it is something people are born with — you’re just over simplifying the issue what you make that kind of a claim.
You are blowing smoke and trying to present yourself as knowledgeable in this matter. Define this “scientific” community you speak of and provide the consensus studies that support your assertion.
Are you suggesting that homosexuality is an acquired condition?
I dream of jeannie
whether they are born that way or they chose that lifestyle, it makes no difference! Either way they have the same rights as you and I.
Choosing a sexual behavior does not afford anybody a new civil right.
“We believe that we’re not equipped, nor is it in our current education program, to discuss matters of sexuality”
BSA has argued itself into a knot over this issue. BSA’s ban of gay members is based on the argument that the presence of gays will interfere with BSA’s expressed message regarding sexuality. If BSA has no message regarding sexuality, BSA has no legal basis to ban gays.
If the council executive is correct, if BSA does not discuss sexuality in its program, then BSA has no legal basis to exclude gays from membership.
Actually, BSA’s position regarding gays is very hard to find in BSA’s own documents. You can go to all the Cub Scouts information meetings, read all the BSA literature you can find, fill out all the forms, and never come across BSA’s policy regarding gays.
If one were to only rely on BSA’s presentation of the facts, it would be very easy to be unaware that BSA prohibits gays from membership. BSA hardly ever promotes that message anywhere.
the gay agenda huh??? lol Why shouldn’t gays try to infilitrate everything? They are people just like you and me. They have the same rights as you and me…And what does the Boy Scout Law have anything to do with it? Are you saying that if your gay, you cant be loyal, helpful, etc. Or maybe your refering to morally straight? Which by the way means “to live your life with honesty, to be clean in your speech and actions and to be a strong person of character” Or is it “I will do my best to do my duty to GOD and my country and obey the Scout law” I don’t see any of the TEN COMMANDMENTS being broken, by being gay!
Love the wording…Gag!
Well lucky for me…I don’t care of what you think of my wording!! Makes alot more sense than what you wrote on here. How ridiculous of you to write that hogwash!! A person’s sexual preference has nothing to do with what kind of a person they are!! I thought bigotry was a thing of the past!! I take it, you don’t believe in EQUAL RIGHTS unless it conforms to your beliefs!
There is no equal right to reject the moral standards established by a private organization. Start your own club.
They are not a private organization because they get funding from local, state and federal agencies.
They do not receive funding from government.
I do believe in equal rights, and I am not a bigot, so stop yelling at me… I was not yelling at you. It is my belief that being gay is a deviation from the natural order of things. That being said, I am against the persecution of people that choose that lifestyle. I am not hateful about that, I am simply opposed to it, and I am willing to voice my opinion. Equal rights means that I too have the right to state my opinion.
Your right, you are entitled to your opinion, just as I am. Bottom line is every American, gay or not has the right to chose his sexual preference!!
I am not opposed to anybody choosing their preferred sexual activities.
It is called Boy Scouts for a reason. Would you let girls go camping with the boy scouts? Come on, be reasonable. .. if the male child is attracted to other male child, they should not be hanging out with the ‘Boy” Scouts. There are boy scouts and there are girl scouts, if you don’t know where you fall, you probably should start a new organization and name it Unisex Scouts.
Gays are not transgendered.
And by your logic we should not have female scout leaders… or if we do, they should be lesbians? Funny thing that, it’s been lesbian scout leaders who have been kicked out most often.
Funny you should mention “Unisex Scouts”. The USA is one of only a small handful of countries that does NOT have co-ed scouting. Most of the world has co-ed scouting including our neighbors to the north in Canada, most European Countries, most of Africa and Australia.
Start a Unisex Scout club and move on.
Well there you have it! Why don’t you start up co-ed scouting and the solution will be solved… Boy scouts can be boy scouts, girl scouts can be girl scouts and those who wish can join a scouting group that does not care if boys and girls and those who don’t want to be what they are can all scout together. Problem solved.
I dont think he has a beard…. but maybe.
I don’t know if he has a beard, but I am sure he is disgusted with what he sees….
god seems more of a fu-man-chu or handle bars type… ya know a legit novelty mustache.
I worked in child protective services for almost 15 years, and I can tell you that most child molesters are actually heterosexual. The Catholic church tried to muddy the issue by talking about gay priests when that issue came out into the light. The issue is that child molesters have a sexual preference for children, not consenting adults.
The only thing I see in the picture is what it is!! A man and his son…only people like you would see anything else in it!! Whether you are gay or not, he is still a boy!! Being gay does not make you less of a man or a girl!! They do have adult supervision!!
Getting a woody are ya?
Sick freak.
I see an inappropriate, out of line comment that’s sure to be flagged…
Follow the money. You won’t get the BSA’s policies to change until you out-sponsor their current top sponsors, which are several conservative religions including:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
The Roman Catholic Church
The Baptists (American, First, Second, Southern, other)
The Methodists
The Presbyterians
etc.
And I can tell you that Out West, the Boy Scouts are the LDS Youth Group. It’s run quite differently than it is here…esp in Utah.
A nine year old child should not know about sexual choices.
What kind of sick people teach this to children?
What kind of sick person teaches their children to hate others?
Degenerates who claim to have “evolved”.
Now there a concept(ion).
is this a form article where they just replace the names and ages every couple weeks and then reprint?
Like it or lump it, it IS up to an organization to choose who they will have as leaders. If you don’t like it, you can do what this young man did (which by the way, nothing “courageous” about it, if you read the article he was pretty much disenchanted with Scouting anyway), and say “No thanks, I’m not going to continue on in the program” or you can say; “Well, I don’t like their policies, but I enjoy what I am doing, guess I’ll keep on keeping on.” The article pretty much states in the first paragraph that he was bored from it. Just saying…
This boy learned how to stand up for his principles. Many adults spend a lifetime never getting up the nerve to do that. I hope his parents are mighty proud of him. Seems they’re instilling good values in him.
I’m ashamed of them and am grateful my son isn’t a member.
A nine year old boy doesn’t stand up for his beliefs to make a “statement” but now if the nine year old is prompted and encouraged by his father well maybe. I have a feeling Christopher knows more about gay then most. What ever so he quits the scouts and its big news???
You don’t know Scouting. Boy Scouts has three citizenship merit badges where boys are taught and encouraged to be politically active. This father is teaching his son well, applying BSA’s own lessons to real-world events.
Well, now, the boy can apply these good standards elsewhere and not have to be offended by the moral standards of a private organization he is not forced to join.
Where does BSA state these moral standards? How do you expect the boy to follow them when BSA won’t state them anywhere?
http://www.bsalegal.org/core-values-old-201.asp
Those who join know what the standards are. Those who reject the standards either fight against them or leave.
Nothing about homosexuality on that page. Try again.
Really? God and homosexuality don’t mix well. No need to try again. The BSA define their standards, not you.
There are over 20 Christian denominations in North America that teach that homosexuality is not a sin.
Sure, BSA can define its own teachings if they want. But would it kill them to write them down somewhere?
Very sad to see the gay movement using children again to spin there rhetoric. Poor kid.
What about when they use kids agence aborsion ?
Ummmm Westboro Baptist Church has little kids holding their lovely signs saying how much ‘god hates fags’ all the time….not to mention all the other various religious affiliated organizations who use children to ‘spin’ their rhetoric….try again.
Key words here: “those who believe in the teachings of the bible know where they are headed.” The great thing about the United States of America is that we can live by our own belief systems as long as we don’t infringe on other American citizen’s rights.
Are you fighting against and saying negative things about people who live together and who divorce? Jesus was very clear on these issues, much clearer then his stance on homosexuality.
The way I look at it is everyone has the right to their own opinion but, by living in America, we also should respect that not all opinions will be the same as our own and that pushing our opinions onto others isn’t right. America is the “land of the free”, it is a land where all religions, races, genders, and sexuality is supposed to be accepted. No one says we have to agree but if we want to support what our country originally stood for (freedom) and what we keep fighting for then we need to accept that not everyone is going to have the same outlook and if it doesn’t directly harm us then we leave it alone and let people live how they want to live just as we will live how we want to live.
In a hospital, criminals, drug addicts, different religions, different races, both genders, children, adults etc.(and I’m not comparing one to the other here, just making a point) all get treated regardless of whether or not the doctor, nurse etc. thinks the person deserves it or not or agrees with how they live their life. This is a very vague (and poor, I will admit) example of how we may not agree with how someone lives but by living here we all (no matter what) have the RIGHT to be treated equally.
I don’t agree with how everyone around me lives their life but I understand that everyone has a right to be who they are as long as they aren’t intentionally harming people.If we don’t like America’s outlook then we should move elsewhere. But that’s just my opinion.
Well said!!
You do not a “right” to be treated “equally” in a private organization structured around specific moral standards. If you don’t agree with the standards, nobody is forcing you to join.
You are right I suppose, private organizations can do as they wish since they are private. I’m not an expert on policies and nor do I try to seem like I am. I know that private colleges are not supposed to discriminate (I’m a student right now), nor are private hospitals (but maybe they have a right to, they just don’t??) so I wasn’t sure on the ways of the boy scouts. Basically, I was replying more to the people who were writing about gays in general as opposed to strictly gays in the boy scouts. But as I said, it’s simply my opinion.
A private university can discriminate based on it’s charter and standards set for admissions. A Christian college can restrict students based on religion.
I understand the opinion. I am against legislation that attempts to suppress the rights of any minority but I also oppose efforts to invent rights based on behaviors.
Then why do religions get special rights FORCING private organizations to accept them at force of law?
Give me an example.
Read the Civil Rights Acts of ’64 and ’68. It is against federal law to ban someone from employment, housing, or other such items because they have chosen to be religious.
That forces every private entity that hires or houses to be subjected to acceptance of religion whether they agree or not.
I recommend you re-read it yourself. The CRA does not require any employer to hire a pastor or any religious position at all. How is it a “special right” of religious people to be hired for non-spiritual positions and not a special right of non-religious people? The comparison of economic rights to those that might be afforded to private social associations is tedious at best. I would hope you are not trying to make a case on that as this matter has already been addressed in the courts.
I have read it… but you are right, and I concede: the comparison of economic rights (which gay citizens are excluded from) is not the same as a social association.
look it up. Boy Scouts of America are not a private organization, because they invite the public in and they accept money from local,state and federal agencies.
Public means “of or pertaining to the people; belonging to the people…opposed to private.” A public place or organization is typically tax-funded or subsidized, and no one individual has a right to greater access than any other. National parks are an example.
Private means “not available for public use, control, or participation…Belonging to a particular person or persons, as opposed to the public or the government.” A private place or organization receives no public funding; people become members through invitation or through policies defined by the owners. Your living room is an example
Please document the government funding of the Boy Scouts of America. If you succeed, I’ll appeal to them to cease taking such funds or revise their admission standards.
Google it yourself. “boy scouts” “public support”
Comes up blank with regard to government funding.
No it doesn’t. “public support”
Then it should be no problem for you to make the case. If you can’t then move along.
I believe it’s called put up or shut up.
Agreed. So put up rather than send me on an empty goose chase or move along.
You made the false claim followed up with a bit of bravado. I won’t do your work for you, lazy.
I made a statement of fact that you cannot refute. Adios, cowgirl.
Good ole’ Anne…..fully back to your old ways of posting…..you never disappoint with your comments…..
Congress has continually chosen to fund the Boy Scouts of America, most recently in 2008 when they directed the U.S. Mint to produce commemorative Boy Scouts coins as a 3.5 million dollar fundraiser for the Boy Scouts of America.
Commemorative coins are paid for by the purchaser so how would that be government funding? The surcharge over the cost of production was provided to various BSA organizations. The purchaser pays the total cost plus the surcharge. The result is no cost to the government therefore no government funding.
Spin it any way you’d like, it still boils down to the same thing.
Yes, it boils down to no government funding. Either you cannot understand what I wrote or you prefer to ignore it.
As a former scout I am ashamed of their decision to support bigotry over inclusiveness.
I am as well.
No matter what “Gays should not be discriminated because of their sexual preference”! They are people just like you, and they should have the same rights as any other American! And who the hell are you, to say this little boy was not courageous in what he did. He said he was a bit bored…You know nothing about him or the situation. I agree 9 years old is very young to know about sexual choices, but in this generation, children are growing up alot faster then my children or I did. Would you rather have them discuss it with their parents or rely on what other kids and people say? If my children heard things they didnt understand they would come to me…and I would tell them the what I knew in the best way I could. Not that I in anyway liked doing that, but Id rather them know whats going on, then to rely on the bits and pieces they that hear. Tarbox says they do not discriminate, their are no questions about sexual preference on the forms. However, if they find out your gay, you are asked to leave. That is discrimination!! Just saying…
Sure it’s discrimination, but it’s not unlawful discrimination.
SCOTUS ruling 2000 says they can. Athests and agnostics are also exclude because the BSA has the right to decide who can join their ranks.
Good luck with your view point. There are sexual predators everywhere look at our schools and all the female teachers charged with having sex with their students. If the Scouts changed their mind to allow gays I would pull my kids out if yours were in it–for fear of bullying.
It’s time to educate our kids on what is really going on out there.. not what we want to go on out there.
Forcing ones views on young impressionable children yes that is right way to go Boy Scouts Of America!!! My son was a scout here in Maine and he has long Hair the so called “christian value boys” teased him so I very nicely asked if they went to church they said yes I asked if they saw pictures of Jesus they said yes I asked if he had long hair they said yes I said then my son is in good company. My son has since quit the scouts as they first they are not what they use to be they have fallen badly or just are really bad here in Maine. My mother did scouts in NY and My father in law did them in MA and they had rules and regulations and neither one would have agreed with turning a child away for any reason that is just being a bully and abusive to the child they should be ashamed of themselves!
I just call it a bit of house cleaning. When the disaffected move on, the BSA can return to focusing on scouting in an appropriate moral setting.
Don’t care if the “evolved” think otherwise.
It’s OK hon… you’ll get your thumbs one day.
All a part of being “evolved”.
“Appropriate moral setting?” What they consider to be appropriate, you mean?
Of course. They certainly should not be subject to your determination or mine. They are a private organization with a right to their own standards.
Without a doubt. But they will certainly draw some “free speech” in their direction.
No doubt but when a stooge picks up a rock, the rules change.
Do bigots like camping?
Way to go, Christopher! I am proud of you for using your head and heart to decide what makes sense to you. My three boys were never Boy Scouts, choosing instead to participate in 4-H which welcomes everyone. There are many, many exciting things to do in this world that do not involve discrimination.
ROMNEY / RYAN 2012 !!!!
It seems that anything to do with homosexuality is a hot topic these days, but I still wonder how this story about a 9-year-old leaving scouting became news. My guess is that it has less – or even nothing – to do with the boy’s feelings and everything to do with his father’s and that his father is a publicity hound and wanted to make a political statement.
From WIKI: Boy Scouts of America’s values affect membership criteriaAccording to its mission statement, the Boy Scouts of America seeks “to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law”.[1] All members are required, as a condition of membership, to promise to uphold and obey both of these pledges. The texts of BSA’s Scout Oath and Scout Law for Boy Scouting have remained unchanged since they were approved in 1911,[4] and every member agrees to follow them on their application form.
Scout OathOn my honor I will do my bestTo do my duty to God and my countryand to obey the Scout Law;To help other people at all times;To keep myself physically strong,mentally awake, and morally straight.
Scout LawA Scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent.
Spirituality has been an integral part of the international Scouting movement since its inception. As early as 1908, Scouting founder Robert Baden-Powell wrote in the first Scout handbook that, “No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys His laws.”[7]
Religious organizations host/sponsor over 60% of the approximately 123,000 Scouting units in the United States and use the Scouting program as part of their youth ministration.[8][9] Officials from various religious organizations—including the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon), Catholic, Methodist, Lutheran, and Presbyterian churches—are included on the BSA National Executive Board, its Advisory Council, and the BSA Religious Relationships Committee.
In reciting the Scout Oath, Scouts promise to be morally straight and to do their duty to God; the Scout Law holds that a Scout is clean and reverent. As early as 1978, the Boy Scouts of America circulated a memorandum among national executive staff stating that they held it was not appropriate for homosexuals to hold leadership positions in BSA.[10] Similarly, since at least 1985, the BSA has interpreted the Scout Oath and Law as being incompatible with agnosticism and atheism.[11] In both instances, the organization asserted that it was not a new policy to oppose and disfavor atheism, agnosticism and homosexuality; and, in support of that, to deny membership to atheists and agnostics, and to deny leadership roles to and occasionally expel “avowed” homosexual persons — rather, the BSA argued it was just enforcing long-held policies which had never been published or publicly challenged.[10][12]
[edit] Programs
See also: Boy Scouts of America#Membership
The Boy Scouts of America makes a division between its Scouting programs and the Learning for Life program. The Scouting programs are Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting, and Venturing. The policies that are considered controversial apply only to the Scouting programs.
Learning for Life programs including Exploring are school and work-site based. Leadership positions and membership in the Learning for Life programs are open to youth and adults without restriction based on gender, sexual orientation, atheism or agnosticism.
[edit] Position on atheists and agnostics
The Boy Scouts of America’s position is that atheists and agnostics cannot participate as Scouts (youth members) or Scouters (adult leaders) in its traditional Scouting programs. The Bylaws of the BSA contain a non-sectarian Declaration of Religious Principle. This was adopted in the first decade of the organization to assuage the Catholic Church that the work of the YMCA in getting Scouting established in this country did not mean that it was a Protestant proselytizing organization:
“The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, ‘On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law.’ The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members.”[2]
During the membership application process and as a requirement to obtain membership, youths and adults are required to subscribe to the precepts of the Declaration of Religious Principle and to agree to abide by the Scout Oath and Law, which include the words, “do my duty to God” and “reverent”. Youths are also required to repeat the Scout Oath and Law periodically after being accepted as Scouts. The BSA believes that atheists and agnostics are not appropriate role models of the Scout Oath and Law for boys, and thus will not accept such adults as leaders.[2]
The BSA does not require adherence to any particular religious beliefs or ethos beyond this. The Boy Scout Handbook goes on to explain that “A Scout is Reverent” simply means that “A Scout is reverent towards God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.” Buddhists, followers of Native American religions, Muslims, Jews, Christians of all denominations, Wiccans, and many others, including those who define their own spirituality, can be and are members of the BSA. The BSA recognizes religious awards for over 38 faith groups including Baha’i, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Hinduism, and 28 varieties of Christianity.[13] Boy Scouts of America–approved religious emblems exist for all these except for Wicca and Native American religions. The former exists but has not been approved due to the fact that there are fewer than 25 chartered Wiccan units.[citation needed]
[edit] Position on homosexuality
See also: Boy Scouts of America v. Dale, Religion and homosexuality, and Societal attitudes toward homosexuality
Since 1991, openly homosexual individuals have been officially prohibited from leadership positions in the Boy Scouts of America.[14] A 1991 Position Statement states: “We believe that homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the requirement in the Scout Oath that a Scout be morally straight and in the Scout Law that a Scout be clean in word and deed, and that homosexuals do not provide a desirable role model for Scouts.”[15] The BSA thus “believes that a known or avowed homosexual is not an appropriate role model of the Scout Oath and Law.”[16]
The language used to describe the BSA’s policies on homosexual individuals has evolved over time. In a 1993 position statement, BSA said:
“We do not allow for the registration of avowed homosexuals as members or as leaders of the BSA.”[17]
In 2004, the BSA adopted a new policy statement, including the following as a “Youth Leadership” policy:
“Boy Scouts of America believes that homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the obligations in the Scout Oath and Scout Law to be morally straight and clean in thought, word, and deed. The conduct of youth members must be in compliance with the Scout Oath and Law, and membership in Boy Scouts of America is contingent upon the willingness to accept Scouting’s values and beliefs. Most boys join Scouting when they are 10 or 11 years old. As they continue in the program, all Scouts are expected to take leadership positions. In the unlikely event that an older boy were to hold himself out as homosexual, he would not be able to continue in a youth leadership position.”[16]
BSALegal.org published these policies until February 2010, when it was removed from their website.[18]
The BSA stated in a 2000 press release that, “Boy Scouting makes no effort to discover the sexual orientation of any person.”[19] BSA application forms for youth membership and adult leadership positions do not inquire about the applicants’ sexual orientation and do not mention the BSA’s policies regarding homosexuality.[20] In 2005, a high-level employee of BSA was fired by the National Council after the organization received a copy of his bill from a gay resort at which he had vacationed.[21] In 2009, the mother and civil union partner of a Vermont Scout were prohibited from volunteering for his pack when it was learned they were gay.[22]
Various BSA national and council policies either prohibit or mandate discrimination. Some types of discrimination, such as prohibiting child molesters from becoming leaders are widely accepted. Others, such as discrimination against racial minorities are widely rejected and prohibited by BSA policies. Where neither is the case, they are controversial, such as with BSA’s prohibition of avowed homosexuals from leadership positions in most of its scouting programs. Non-discrimination policies can be either vague or specific and operative. The latter typically enumerate protected classes and attributes which may not be discriminated against.[23][24]
BSA local councils and Scouting units are required to adhere to National Council policies as a condition of their charters.[25] At least three of the more than three hundred local scout councils added “sexual orientation” to the enumerated protected classes or attributes in their non-discrimination policies; two in 1991 and one in 1993.[23][24] All three made statements that these changes were not in conflict with BSA national policy. In at least two of these cases, controversy ensued from those on both sides of the issue.[23][24] Those advocating liberalization of policies said that these did not represent true changes or that true changes did not occur.[26] Those against liberalization said that these changes were indeed in conflict with BSA national policy and needed to be rescinded.[23][27] At least one of these councils reversed the change,[27] and it appears that the others did the same. None of their websites currently contain non-discrimination policies with enumerated protected classes.
At the Scouts annual meeting in April 2012, a leader from the Northeast presented a resolution that “would allow individual units to accept gays as adult leaders”. A decision on the resolution was expected to take a year.[28]
On June 7, 2012, a BSA press release stated:
The BSA policy is: “While the BSA does not proactively inquire about the sexual orientation of employees, volunteers, or members, we do not grant membership to individuals who are open or avowed homosexuals or who engage in behavior that would become a distraction to the mission of the BSA.”
Scouting believes same-sex attraction should be introduced and discussed outside of its program with parents, caregivers, or spiritual advisers, at the appropriate time and in the right setting. The vast majority of parents we serve value this right and do not sign their children up for Scouting for it to introduce or discuss, in any way, these topics.
The BSA is a voluntary, private organization that sets policies that are best for the organization. The BSA welcomes all who share its beliefs but does not criticize or condemn those who wish to follow a different path.[29]
I know this is a long comment, but it clearly states what the Boy Scouts organization is all about..the end of the paragraph says it all.
So the take away is… BSA circulates its policies through secret memos and court briefs, while occasionally asking its PR department to craft vaguely-worded press releases?
Why doesn’t BSA just state its message regarding gays somewhere?
Well, the point was, they did post their position. And of course, they are a private organization, but they share their beliefs. So, if a person does not agree, they do not have to join, the whole point being that they are a volunteer organization……..You can choose to join…..or not if you do not share their views.
Gee, not seeing secret memo’s and briefs here, I think they stated things pretty clearly, or maybe you did not take the time to read this…..or maybe you just don’t care and just want to argue your position in spite of the facts? ( The facts show that they are a christian based organization, which of course means that they are going to stick to christian beliefs, which are opposed to a gay/homosexual lifestyle) So, why would a non-christian person want to even belong to this organization in the first place?
I’m referring to “As early as 1978, the Boy Scouts of America circulated a memorandum among national executive staff…” Apparently secret internal memos count for policy statements.
Funny how, with 1730 words, you couldn’t squeeze in the two main statements that BSA made to the Supreme Court in 2000, which formed the basis of the Court agreeing that BSA could exclude gays.
The last public statement that BSA has made regarding its beliefs about homosexuality is from 2004. It is buried in your 1730-word copy-and-paste job. That statement was removed from all BSA literature in 2010.
If BSA’s beliefs about gays are so important that they are willing to alienate millions of potential members and donors, why haven’t they mentioned those beliefs publicly for over eight years?
And how do you know that they are non-christian??? Gays believe in God, just like anyone else!! Or are they not allowed to do that either!!
I don’t think anyone would call using 1730 words to say something “clear”.
Did you actually count all the words? LOL
http://www.wordcounttool.com/
Cool, and I gave you a “like”, but only for the word count tool link.
you should actually take the time to read it
I would be much more concerned for the safety of your 3 boys if
they were alone with a catholic priest.
My take is he was bored with scouts, didn’t want to participate anymore, and got sucked up into this controversy with the help of some adult. Way to get yourself in the paper and 15 minutes of fame.
On the contrary. It appears Scouting has suddenly become very relevant and non-boring for this boy.
seems like my previous observation got removed…glad you had a chance to reply. I don’t think it was out of light or insulting…guess the higher ups in the BDN don’t like anyone disagreeing with their opinion
BSA does have a legal basis, on account of being a private organization, as decreed by the US Supreme Court. There are no women in the masons. There are men only golf clubs. There are women only health clubs. There are (or were) whites only golf clubs. Any private organization sets its own rules.
BSA’s legal basis to exclude gays was based on BSA having an expressed message regarding homosexuality. That was the core of BSA’s case to the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court agreed with BSA’s argument.
Would you care to tell us what BSA’s expressed message regarding homosexuality is?
I cant find it in my Boy Scout Handbook, or Scoutmasters Handbook. But again, Scouting involves only 1 percent of the US population. The Mormon church on the other hand, encompasses 2 percent of the US population. Why don’t you try to change their anti-gay policy-they have bigger numbers than the BSA? The BSA also excludes convicted felons who have served their time such as murderers, arsonists, rapists, and domestic abusers to name a few. Is anyone going to argue for their inclusion? What about their rights and feelings? You may not use tobacco in front of Scouts. Isn’t that singling out a certain group of people? Its simple, don’t like the BSA policies, don’t join or support. Thats a choice everyone has.
Funny how BSA claims freedom of expression for something they never express, isn’t it?
I guess being Trustworthy is too old-fashioned when it comes to BSA’s message regarding homosexuality.
Spoken like a true bigot! Bigotry is the state of mind or attitude of a bigot, defined by Merriam-Webster as “a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices” You present your views in an inflexible and intolerant manner, no matter what the facts that are……..go look in the mirror and see who you are….
great advice, you should take it!!
I Checked that out, looks like the BSA already prevailed in court on this…….
BSA prevailed in court only because the court dug up a clear statement of BSA’s expressed message regarding homosexuality.
If BSA’s message about gays is good enough for the courts, whey don’t they tell anyone else what their message is?
Well, if its good enough for the courts it must be good enough for most. You obviously don’t agree with the courts, in which case you are a bigot whose opinion won’t be changed, which is the definition on what a bigot is, look up the definition…. The BSA has clearly stated their position, you, as a bigot, just don’t like it… Give it up!
The BSA has not clearly stated its message about homosexuality outside of court proceedings. What is BSA hiding?
Give it up already! The BSA made a clear statement and they have been to court over this, and the court made a decision regarding their stance. Are YOU going to just ignore every court decision because YOU know better? That is what biggotry is….
Bigoted attitudes; intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.
WAY TO GO CHRISTOPHER ! ! !
keep weeding them out BSA
“Land of The Free and Home of The Brave” … but not if you’re openly gay … hmmm The Founding Fathers must be turning in their graves
Gay men= Sexual deviants ??? WOW… I’m sure you are not alone in that regard either, and that is the SADDEST thing that I have read all day. Be proud.
I applaud the boy for standing up for what he believes in. I personally think the Boy Scouts should also be proud for not caving to the demands of others. Just like the boy, the Boy Scouts are entitled to their own beliefs.
Same goes for marriage, I don’t know what the big deal is. Let them get married…Its not like they will get into heaven.
At least the boy tells us what he believes. Where does BSA tell us what they believe about gays? How can BSA have a belief that they never tell anyone about?
You have no actual idea about who may or may not get into heaven, if there even is one.
Oh it’s so much safer to send them to be a Catholic Alter Boy. Homosexuality is NOT Pedophilia. Grow up people and stop being so afraid and teaching your children fear.
When you learn the difference between “alter” and “altar,” get back to us.
Sorry to upset you Ted. The name calling is a sign that you’re running out of cover. And, that you don’t care about the choice taboo is telling. Also, you better take issue with the definition of homosexuality because it does indeed include behavior, unless of course “erotic activity” is now off the PC list of behaviors that may be discussed here.
Just making sure we cover this: The Boy Scouts of America is a private organization. As such, they are entitled to define terms of membership. Start your own scouts: It’s allowed. Stop pressuring private organizations to bend their convictions.
It is not that simple.
Freedom of association, as upheld in the U.S. Constitution, only allows for exclusion of people that would interfere with a group’s expression. This is what is referred to as “expressive association”.
BSA cannot define a condition for membership that is unrelated to BSA’s expression.
What is BSA’s expressed message with regard to homosexuality, that entitles BSA to ban gays?
From the Scout Oath:
“…and morally straight.”
Such a closed minded comment “do gays even like camping”. Really? Time to come into the 21st century buddy.
Just makes the kid a quitter.
“A Scout is Brave: He has the courage to stand for what he thinks is right even if others laugh at him or threaten him.”
yet his father let him join in the first place when the Boy scouts STILL did not allow gays.
Is that policy written in the application material somewhere?
If quitting means standing up against something that is wrong then so be it!
GOOD FOR YOU CHRISTOPHER!!!!
The BSA has a liability issue to avoid. It is not so much an issue with Scoutmasters, homosexual parents, but it is with the children that it has more of a concern. BSA in its attempt to remain more “politically correct” beats around the bush of the reason for their ban on homosexuality.
It is on record that parents who support homosexuality inform their children of sexual behavior at a younger age then parents that are conservative. BSA, whose parent base is more conservative, are concerned that a boy with heightened sexual awareness unleashed around some not-so-informed children…
…well…
…you can figure the rest out for yourselves.
By knowingly introducing a boy that has advanced sexual knowledge among a group of other boys, BSA could be held legally responsible if…IF…that boy assaults another boy. The fact that a minor is responsible will not matter one bit once a dollar value is discussed in the civil lawsuit.
BSA has the right to protect itself… of course, that’s what this is all about… rights.
I didn’t even bother to read the entirety of the comments. The article is about a young man who made a difficult personal decision to extract himself from an organization he apparently feels is treating people wrongly. It’s not about the feelings of posters with reference to gays, nor is it about individual interpretation of a religious book. It’s about one young man taking a chance and standing up for what he believes is right. What I see in the majority of these posts is people stamping their little feet in an attempt to realize that “I am right!”. It’s not about you; it’s about Christopher.
Barb, its about a 9 year old by that probably is not totally aware of the implications and being coached by others, read the whole article and then make an intelligent comment…..
Google shows that Scott Tiner, the Dad, works in the education system. Too bad he is in a position where he is has any influence on young minds and has this type of attitude……. using his own 9 year old child to make a statement about his views. Shame on him for doing this!
Shame on you for assuming…you do not know if the boy came to his father because of things that he has heard. The boy obviously thinks it is wrong, and so he spoke up.You think you are the only one who has an intelligent comment on here…because obviously, you know everything!! Get it through your thick head!! This is not all about one little boy doing what he thinks is right…This is about equal rights for everyone, regardless of race, religion and yes, sexual preferences
Thanks for this post, this clearly shows your position, its not about the story presented in the BDN, its about a bigger issue, your issue. Being insulting to people that do not share your view is not productive, it just shows that you are the one that is a bigot. Equal rights is a constititional right that we already have, special rights for people that deviate from those rights is not….
your right it is about a bigger issue than just this little boys story….His parents are raising him not to look down at people who are different. So sorry I insulted you, goodness me!! I believe in equal rights for everybody!! You do not….They have a right to marry who they choose…I did….did you? Come on murderers and child molesters are treated better ….And by the way….I don’t care if your white, black, Christian, Jewish, etc or prefer to be with someone your own sex. Frankly its none of my business who someone sleeps with, You treat me right, and I’ll treat you right…And don’t come down on me, you had negative and insulting remarks for everyone who didn’t agree with you..
You have to be kidding me. What a telling story about how ‘tolerant’ the gay crowd is. They’re not content until they infiltrate and take over every area of our society. They are not even willing to leave the boy scouts alone. You have twisted this little 9 year old’s mind to believe that the boy scouts should not be able to exclude homosexuals from their leadership. Homosexuality is a perverted, disgusting life style. It should not be ‘celebrated’ and marched around in our society. Keep it out of the boy scouts and every other area of our society it does not belong.
you know….Gay people are religious too! They still believe in God. Hopefully not the God you speak too…You have your opinion, I have mine. Still the bottom line is every person has equal rights…
I withdrew from the scouts when I was myself a boy because it became evident to me at the time that the group was basically no more than a paramilitary organization with questionable priorities. The “leaders” were typical bullies who often took pleasure in embarrassing some of the kids. Great male role models! I learned more about camping at my summer camp, more about cooperation and collaboration in my school, more about humanity from my parents, and more about friendship from my friends (who were of all genders, backgrounds, and colors). The scouts’ ill-conceived policy of exclusion is anti-American and hypocritical, but no surprise. More power to this free-thinking kid.
That may qualify as the most ridiculous post of the day. You sound like Colonel Bella in Red Dawn:
COLONEL ERNESTO BELLA
“A member of an elite paramilitary organization: “Eagle Scouts.”
I don’t think for this kid it was a matter of people being excluded. I think he was bored with it and his parents wanted to make it more of an issue than it was. Personally, if gay folks had a group and no heterosexuals were allowed, I wouldn’t mind it a bit, and I’d tell my kid he’ll just have to join a different group. Whose bright idea is it to insist that every single club has to admit everyone, anyway?
I don’t believe this young man understands what a homosexual is. Only in the BDN would this be a story. When he gets old enough, I hope someone explains sodomy to him and that’s why the Boy Scouts don’t want homosexual men in their ranks. Praising him for his misbeliefs is not doing him any favors. Boys Scouts honor God, Country and Family and still promote moral values and character, something many, many people lack, to our detriment. One day he’ll regret his adolescent decision.
The headline to this story says “Boy Scouts policy on gays moves 9-year-old to quit”, and that’s consistent with the BDN’s position on homosexuals, but I’m not buying it. Like you say, I think it’s more likely that the boy doesn’t know what a homosexual is and, further, that the actual reason – HIS reason, as distinct from his father’s – wasn’t any policy of the Boy Scouts.
Christopher’s parents should be very proud! He has obviously been raised to be respectful and
nonjudgmental. Very encouraging! I understand and respect others feelings and opinions but the majority of pedophiles are white, heterosexual males, often with wives and children. This is a fact that is overlooked by many. This kid is a role model and mentor for other munchkins and the rest
of us!!
What is your factual basis for saying that most pedophiles are white, heterosexual males?
Lets see Carlson was married know one thought he was gay (at least not most people). Point is many pedophiles are married many are also gay . Protect kids do not instill prejudices .
For sure, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the BDN disagrees with you and removes your comment.
Good for him!
This is ridiculous! Politicizing a 9-year-old boy is about as low as you can go! I’m sure his head was filled with mush by one of his family members who is a gay activist! Absolutely shameful!!
Being gay does not = pedophile, there is a big difference between the two. Not allowing someone to become a scout master because they are gay is like saying they can’t because they are a different color or nationality than you are. There are plenty of gay parents who would love to participate with their children but aren’t allowed to. It’s another childhood memory ignorance has stolen away.
It’s amazing that you can be gay, bleed the same color blood when you die on the battle field for your country but can’t be active in scouting unless you keep your mouth shut. They want you to become a good scout and obey the scout law, to be Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean and Reverent. How can you be trustworthy when you are gay and have to live a lie right in front of them each scout day of your life. I am a Eagle Scout and have dedicated my life to training cubs, boy scouts for 55 years, but will no longer be a part of this bigotry. Shame on you so called Scout dictators not leaders….So sad…..
RJ, get a life, because this has nothing to do with who you are….but a father supporting his son’s personal feelings on a public issue…..what ever happen to freedom of speech and the right to express yourself, your 15 minutes of publicizing and fame are up….
This is funny ’cause gays are already in the Scouts only they are hiding under the title of Scout leader.
You’re thinking of pedophiles. Pedophilia is not homosexuality.
The founder of the Boy Scouts was arguably a pedophile himself.
The next thing you know the Boy Scouts will allow Black people to join.
A brave young man standing on his principles. Good for him !
The Scouts are not bothering anyone. They have a long established club that they don’t wish to change. So, just an idea, but if the Scouts don’t wish to allow homosexuals, maybe the homosexuals could start their own club, and not allow any heterosexual boys to join. That would teach those Scouts a lesson. They would have the opportunity to make up all their own rules, and call the club whatever they wish. Maybe the Scoutettes? Think of all the badges they could earn. They could teach the little boys how to put their mascara on without looking trashy….or maybe trashy is in? Maybe for the older boys, who’s voice has already changed to be masculine, they could learn to speak in that nasally feminine twang. There is just no end to what a fun club it could be.
Hey…maybe that would work for marriage too?
You must be very proud of yourself for spewing all of that ignorance? The issue is about treating all people equally, not segregating into seperate groups. You probably dont care for different races either.
It’s a private organization, get over it. You can’t corn hole your way into everything, anymore than the rest of us can.
No problem at all with the races. I’ve worked with them all over the world in places that would give you nightmares.
As a former scout and scout leader I am proud of an organization that stands up for its beliefs no matter how unpopular they may be. quit your whining folks. Want inclusion? Form your own organization and play by your own rules. Why must everything be agreeable to everyone?
I’m appalled that the Girl Scouts won’t allow boys to join!!! Such Ignorance!!!! (tongue in cheek)
And another thing!!!…Them boy scouts won’t allow the kids to smoke cigarettes!!! Such Ignorance!
Contrary to the opinions of some people and some churches, gays are members of the human race.
Why is it that it is ok for gay people to force their values and morals on Society? When someone who objects to gay behavior makes a choice not condone the behavior why is everyone quick to jump and point fingers and label them “haters”. The Boy Scouts of America do not support gay behavior, likely this is based on religious ideology. I think they have the right to take that stance. I’m positive there are gay only organizations in the US. If I’m denied access because I’m not gay do I have a right to publically ridicule and force them to let me in? I surmise one can argue that the view I presented would allowed the blacks to be discriminated against and women to be denied voting rights. I believe equality is not possible in a diverse world. Isn’t equality as it applies to gays eroding my Christian values? Do I not have the right to object? If I run a church that does not want gays in it do I have that right? Do gays have the same right to reject hetrosexuals? If it is a public organization it should not discriminate against gays? If it is private isn’t that different?
The Boy Scouts are not simply opposing “gay behavior”, they have a policy of excluding gays and lesbians.
In other words, a lesbian scout leader gets kicked out when she is found to be a lesbian— she didn’t have to “act lesbian” in front of anyone.
The policy is wrong because it sends a message to our young people that it is okay to exclude other children and adults from activities simply because of who they are, regardless of how they act.
I understood the policy as being, for lack of a better description, don’t ask don’t tell. If their lifestyle conflicts with the organizational policy they can leave. For sake of argument, if I pulled my child from Scouts because I didn’t want them to have a gay Scout leader I would likely be ridiculed for doing it, called close minded, bigoted, etc. Because I didn’t support gay Scout leaders my it would be my loss. If the scouts don’t want openly gay people in leadership gay people can leave and form a Scout pack for gay people……I’m playing Devil’s Advocate. Why should I be ridiculed and made to feel guilty by the gay community?
‘gay people to forcing their values and morals on society….’ are you being mandated to be gay or denied any rights because you aren’t gay? No you’re not. ‘…..gays eroding my Christian values’ Seriously?? How does someone being gay ‘erode’ anything in your life? Oh right… because people being gay is ALL ABOUT YOU and your life and has nothing to do with their lives and families. Very christian of you and spoken like a white, entitled, male who has never been denied any kind of equal rights in his lifetime….try again.
See, because I said what I said I’m ridculed. No I’m not being mandated to be gay. The Scouts and the people who make policy are being mandated to change their values, or it seems that way. Is that fair? The fact of being gay doesn’t erode the values, being forced to accept that being gay is ok is eroding values. Isn’t you wanting what you want ALL ABOUT YOU? What about the familes who don’t want openly gay Scout Leaders, why are they being forced to accept g values? Then you lash out.
Why do you want and expect people to accept your ‘christian’ values when not everyone is a ‘christian’ or may not have the same values that you do? Why is THAT alright and somehow different? You asked isn’t what I want ‘all about me’- yes it is and here is the difference between you and I. What I want has to do with me and me alone and thus is up to me and me alone to insure that what I want either happens or doesn’t happen. Whether someone else is; gay or Jewish or bilingual or French or an Atheist or cross eyed or whatever has absolutely nothing to do with me. My values and morals are not based on another person and thus are absolutely NEVER affected by the choices that other people make or don’t make in their lives. If your ‘christian values’ are threatened to ‘erode’ by something as simple as someone else being gay……you have far bigger worries and problems than gay people my friend…..your problem resides within yourself.
The pathological anger of the left on display.
Yes, and the inane, fearful, homophobes of the right make for wonderful fodder for the rest of us to laugh at.
Simple answer to this is because it is descrimination. IF the Boy Scouts were to say, we do not want black boys in the Boy Scouts, would you be offended? If not, then you are likely racist. Well this is actually the exact same argument. Why should one group of people be excluded from something that all enjoy? Once again, it becomes a question of feeling you are above others and unfair treatment.
Discrimnation, it is. They make a clear distinction that they do not suport gay values. I’m just trying to play devils advocate. I don’t feel I’m above others and I don’t want to treat others unfair. However I don’t want to be excluded because I don’t agree with an intimate sexual relationship with the same gender. Is fair for me to be excluded? Essentially I would need to leave the Scouts…………as for discrimination based on gender and race. I do not have an answer.
Good for you Tiners! I am keeping my sons out of the Scouts because of their stance. We can camp and do all those same activities ourselves. There are many opportunities to join other groups participating in them!
Win win in my book. Boy Scouts of America, as a private organization, stands up for what they consider is right and a member decides its not for him and leaves. That’s what supposed to happen in a free country.
This article is B.S. The kid got bored with it bottom line. He was looking for a way out and he found it.
The Dad’s smiling because he doesn’t have to go on camping trips and go to meetings with other peoples brats! LOL!
Ever stop to think how many Eagle Badges would get returned if BSA was pro homosexual? Bet it would outnumber the few that are making the national (liberal) news.
The vast majority of parents of scouts don’t want their kids exposed to the sex stuff of any kind.
Why is that so hard to understand?
Why is your ignorance bringing sex into the denomination of someone who is gay? Just because a man wants to be with another man or a woman with another woman, does not mean it necessarily means sex. Just as with heterosexual couples, sex is not brought in immediately, unless that is the type of relationship it is. What this entire battle is about is why cant little boys that consider themselves homosexual, even if they have never had sex, which most have NOT, be allowed the SAME things that heterosexual boys are allowed? To me, not allowing it is 100% DESCRIMINATION….and that is pretty much what the entire argument is over. I have to believe that if the decision were left up to the boys and young men of the Boy Scouts, that this would be overturned, because unlike you, they are not looking at this question from a standpoint of sex at all.
Well Jeffy,
Parents sign up their kids and pay for them to be able to join. As a parent I want to be able to discuss same sex issues at a time and place of my choosing.
Unlike public schools and so called “progressive” organizations. BSA understands that issues such as sex and marriage must be addressed in a moral context and parents have the right to provide that context.
Can you tell me why Gay rights activists are so determined to gain acceptance in a youth organizatin that is rooted in traditional beliefs?
Bigotry is alive and well in Maine especially up in the county.
Your bigotry regarding traditional values and Christianity is noted.
and I was counting on your YES vote for gay marriage!
approving marriage equality is NOT bigotry against “traditional values” or even against Christianity.
OK, Ray…show us the past acceptance of gay marriage throughout history. I won’t hold my breath.
Well Jeffy,
Parents sign up their kids and pay for them to be able to join. As a parent I want to be able to discuss same sex issues at a time and place of my choosing.
Unlike public schools and so called “progressive” organizations. BSA understands that issues such as sex and marriage must be addressed in a moral context and parents have the right to provide that context.
Can you tell me why Gay rights activists are so determined to gain acceptance in a youth organizatin that is rooted in traditional beliefs?
I know so many gay adults who hide in fear, but here is a 9 year old boy with the courage of a lion. I thank him from the bottom of my heart for giving me hope that this world is changing and future generations will be that change. I have been with my partner for 8 years and hope to marry soon. Having been a girlscout I am saddened by the decision of the boy scout council and it is a shame that an organization who is supposed to teach values is choosing to teach exclusion and fear. So thank you christopher, and everyone else who chooses love above all else!
Courage? The kid is being used by the adults in his life to further their own agenda.
how is he being used by adults? He made his own choice.
LOL! How many nine year olds make political choices? And on gay rights no less!
Talk about a misleading headline…I have a feeling it was more about boredom
than anything, but that wouldn’t have made the paper…
You are spot on as usual…..
Honor knows no age…give this little man props.
And Scouts are apparently not allowed to discuss their girlfriends, dating problems, or anything at all that comes along with puberty, raging hormones, how to conduct yourself around the opposite sex, right? When they go camping they never mention the girls they meet at school, right? Just don’t talk about any of that stuff, pretend these aren’t growing boys approaching adulthood with their gender identities and sexual orientation questions blooming within and the Scouts (supposedly great for shaping young men to face the world) continue to be ill-equipped to deal with a most basic core reality. This makes no more sense than the stupid Don’t Ask Don’t Tell policy. Come on, BSA — join the 21st Century.