BRUNSWICK, Maine — Ridership during the Amtrak Downeaster’s first month of passenger service to Freeport and Brunswick was higher than expected, according to the Northern New England Passenger Rail Authority.
Patricia Quinn, NNEPRA executive director, Tuesday said preliminary ridership north of Portland was 5,200 for November, with an average of 180 rides a day, or 80 percent more than projected.
She said the official report for November ridership is expected next week.
But despite — and perhaps, because of — the Downeaster’s early success, noise generated by the train remains a concern for some residents who live near the tracks.
Some residents are also complaining about noise created while the trains idle in Brunswick for an average 5½ hours a day, which state Sen. Stan Gerzofsky, D-Brunswick, said he hopes to address with legislation.
NNEPRA plans to build a maintenance facility that will address some of these noise issues by moving the trains indoors, but neighbors remain concerned the site will generate more noise and have a negative effect on their quality of life.
Though the facility has not been funded, some residents are already preparing to contest NNEPRA’s plan.
Gerzofsky said he is introducing legislation to target train idling near Cedar Street. He said the rumbling and vibrations from the trains have caused distress for some nearby residents.
The bill will be based on an anti-idling law in Massachusetts, Gerzofsky said. It would limit the time a train could idle to 30 minutes and require trains to upgrade their fuel to a type that would make them more efficient and less noisy for nearby residents.
Quinn said the trains idle in Brunswick because Downeaster’s schedule requires a train to stay in town for morning and evening one-way trips. She said the trains need to idle to maintain power for certain functions and stay warm during the winter.
Any limits imposed on idling could threaten the train service, Quinn said. But NNEPRA is nonetheless working to address the idle time.
Quinn said the rail authority is planning to install an extra track where trains can plug in for electricity, which would decrease the amount of time they would have to idle.
Another plan will see the maintenance facility constructed between Stanwood Street and Church Road, Quinn said.
But that has already found opposition from neighbors on Bouchard Drive, a street that runs parallel to the rail yard where the facility would be constructed.
Dan Sullivan, a Bouchard Drive resident, said he can deal with noise from trains passing on occasion, but the maintenance facility will create a far bigger problem.
Sullivan said he and others have been frustrated by the process by which NNEPRA chose the site for the maintenance facility, a decision Quinn said was made last year as a result of a public hearings in Brunswick and findings by the rail authority’s board.
“Our board of directors made a decision in August 2011 to choose that site,” Quinn said. She said the site was chosen because it has been a rail yard since 1860 and it’s part of an industry mixed-use zone.
Sullivan said he thinks NNEPRA was not fully honest with the information it presented to the public that led to that decision. There were specifications the board presented that downplayed the effect the facility will have on his neighborhood, he said.
“You can gather statistics and adjust them any way you’d like,” Sullivan said. “We think NNEPRA did just that.”
Quinn denied that accusation.
“NNEPRA has not intentionally misrepresented information,” Quinn said. She said her board responded to questions and concerns during the 2011 hearings and that other sites were reviewed “in earnest.”
But Sullivan said he and others are not convinced.
“I am continuing to work with entities to help identify whether the maintenance facility will have a significant impact on the environment,” he said.
Nice to see so many people riding the train! I’m looking forward to taking it some time soon myself. I hope they get their noise issue all straightened out.
Did you read the article? 180 trips a day is less than a full M7 car going each way. So we are paying for a train to sit there all day to bring all of 90 people in and out of the station? Why not put these federal dollars where people actually ride the train? It is sickening to watch government officials so blatantly waste taxpayers money on this ‘train to nowhere’.
The train does not just take people from Brunswick to Portland and stop- it goes the entire route.
We also “blatantly waste taxpayers’ money” on airlines, roads, ports, oil companies, nuclear power plants, and many other things that often do not make sufficient money on their own.
Great idea but “Not in my back yard!!!”…
typical NIMBYs—love the idea of trains–green, cheap transportation—but don’t like the idea of a locomotive in their town–never mind that it doesn’t run at night—still don’t like them–they might actually hear the noise they make on occasion.
Yes, right. Anti-progress types. They are probably the same ones that bemoan most everything that brings more people , activity and business to Maine. There are places in Maine way out in the woods ….nothing but woods for miles. That is always an option for those who want silence.
Plug in is the solution. Also saves fuel.
Not in Maine. We cannot have renewable energy because it might mean cutting down a tree, or looking at an unsightly, potentially loud, wind turbine. Not to mention the possibility of hurting a bird. If we stoped burning diesel and switched to electric trains, all we do is increase the need of burning fossil fuels to generate the electricity. NIMBY’s will find a way to complain no matter what solution is brought forward. The only way to please them would go back to the days of horse and carriage where there is no pollution at all, but even then I bet they would crawl out of the woodwork to complain about the treatment of the horses or the manure on the streets.
They might say they want the so-called ‘good ole’ days’, but I doubt they want to give up their conveniences more than anyone else does. Take away their cars, phones, computers, etc., and they would whine up a storm.
Ever hit a frozen horse apple with a car? Not a pleasant feeling! Ask anybody that lives near the quaint Amish.
If we started having contests in kindergarten for the “prettiest” picture of wind turbines, the public’s opinion would change in two generations.
Maybe ear plugs are the solution?
The Brunswick Naval Air Station operated in this Nimby town for over seventy years. The difference in the two is twofold. The air station and it’s inhabitants lined the coffers of Brunswick with gold. The aircraft operating from there made ten times the noise, thousands of tons more fuel fumes, and far more traffic than this train. If Amtrak were making the tax payments for these whiners like NASB did for seventy years, you wouldn’t hear a word.
Matter of fact,these same whiners made more noise trying to save NASB than these trains make.
Talk about a mountain from a mole hill. I sat yesterday in the Hannaford parking lot right next to this idling train. With my windows up and radio on, I could hardly hear them.
These cry babies just need a cause. I love the train and hope they add more.
Brunswick is full of spoiled hypocrites from the sound of things.
I live somewhat near tracks where trains go through very early in the
morning anytime from 5-7am, at least once in the evening, and usually
at night anywhere between 8-10pm–and maybe during the day but I am not
home at that time. When I first moved to my home, sure I noticed every
time they went through, but after a few weeks I almost never noticed it
any longer. The only time I notice it now is on exceptionally cold,
clear nights it sometimes sounds like the train is 10 feet away, and
even then its more of a thought in my head–oh, the train is loud
tonight. Still, its in passing. Give it a little more time and these
whiners will probably forget the trains are around.
That being said, when I lived in Bath, the air traffic over the city thanks
to BNAS was something I never got used to. The large cargo planes were
very loud and sometimes would shake the house. And on the weeks
surrounding the air show, the jets screaming over the house were
incredibly loud. Granted, it was never at night, but that is no
different than these trains. You are right, NIMBY’s just need something
to complain about.
Didn’t realize there were Brunswick area locals up here in these virtual Bangor parts! I grew up in Harpswell and fondly remember the soothing sounds of the circling P3’s rumbling the house at every hour of the day and night.
Temporary noise of course vs constant noise, though the idea is the same…you get used to it.
No, I live in the Augusta area, but the KJ/Morning Sentinel are sad excuses for newspapers and I prefer to get my news from BDN.
Ah. I’m an outcast of the PPH (since they changed their posting policy.) I find the reporting here comparable – sometimes better, sometimes worse. The biggest difference I’ve noticed is the focus on crime. Either the PPH chooses not to spotlight crime as much, or the Bangor area has even more losers than the Portland area. Maybe a bit of both.
Huh, we’re neighbors.
Not a Brunswick local, however, I did spend fourteen years of my Navy career happily flying those P-3’s out of NASB and living nearby. I too loved the sound as well as liking the sound of a passing train. Both take us back to a far more pleasant time in this country.
Military aircraft noise. The sound of freedom at it’s best. Thanks for your service. I have twenty four years under my belt working on Kc 135’s and B 52’s. Now there was some noise
Thank you for your service and welcome home, Brother.
That’s those are noises that I miss.
So? people in Freeport? Old Orchard Beach? and other places along the noreaster don’t hear a train?
I am sure they do hear a train, but you know what, sometimes you have to give a little and get over yourself. Maine has horrendous public transportation options, especially once you get above Portland or in rural areas. OOB, Saco, Wells, Dover…all have been dealing with this train for years. I’ve taken it multiple times, the train goes right through the center of towns, by houses, apartments, shops. Nobody seems to be complaining about the train today in those areas.
So why is it we go a little further north and suddenly the people of Freeport and Brunswick need their precious peace and quiet…disregarding the fact that until recently there was a very active military airbase used often to land very large and very loud cargo aircraft? I know as I lived in the area for a while.
Stop complaining! Its a fantastic opportunity to not have to even travel to Portland to ride a train to Boston. Enough with the NIMBY crybaby stuff, nobody can seem to do anything in this state anymore without upsetting people. Its becoming rather annoying and tiring reading almost every day about some group whining about some dumb, pointless thing.
Well said. I lived in Wells next to the railroad tracks for many years, and when the Downeaster started running it was a HUGE increase in train traffic. Tenfold at least. Nobody complained about the noise. I’ve not heard of any complaints from the folks elsewhere along the route either… Kennebunk, Arundel, North Berwick, South Berwick, etc., and those towns don’t even have stations but they still have to hear the noise. Apparently they’re not as sensitive as the delicate folks in Freeport and Brunswick.
I have too… I actually prefer to park and ride in portland so i don’t leave my car in boston somewhere
I agree with your comment, but (a big but) 5-7AM is hardly very early morning. In my world of Advanced Sleep Phase disorder I am up for the day at 2AM at the latest, usually 1 or 1:30. I go to bed at 7:30PM. I really don’t like it but it runs in famlies. I just ate breakfast at 2:20AM, looks like a snack at 7 and lunch at 10.
I’d hate to go to a party at your house Larry. EVERYBODY OUT! It’s 6:30pm! : ) But seriously, your cat is really cool. Looks like mine.
Early was in reference to for most people. Sorry I didn’t account for you, because in the end that is what its all about, right?
Oh yeah, and it’s generally the same ones yelling ‘Go Green’.
Had this nation not pulled up most of it’s city’s tracks we’d long ago have a sound commuter transportation infrastructure in place.
Now, it’s cost preventative at roughly $1 million per mile of track.
Idiots..
And anyone who is anti-train is anti-American ! Trains are to America what a tepee is to an Indian/Native American. (pc version)
Love the sound of the train. I think it is great that they are increasing service here in Maine.
Good post. It’s because of whiners like this that Forbes lists Maine as the worst state to do business in. Too many people don’t want anything, anywhere.
Ah, not exactly. What we Mainers want is what really benefits us as a majority. If we look at the propose East/West hwy. scam it benefits a ‘private concern’ and Canadian truckers.
Forbes magazine is in bed with the Red Communist in China in terms of ideology. They represent everything that is bad in America and for America. They represent those who have sold America and it’s citizens out on the cheap.
With friends like Forbes who needs enemy’s.
Now imagine having to pay a toll on the East/West hwy. scam to a ‘private entity’ to drive across OUR State.
Honestly I’d rather pay a toll on a privately funded road than the Maine turnpike. It costs me $6 a day to commute to and from work. The T-Pike was so grossly mismanaged by that last dirt-bag that they have to raise tolls to bail themselves out of the mess he created. If you live north of Augusta no worries for you, but here in So. ME we get stuck footing the bill for another government cluster bleep.
Private entities put people to work and new roads bring new opportunities. The government can put people to work, but at what cost to the rest of us? I’ll take private over public any day.
We don’t need that Hwy. built. We already have and East/West route, let’s spend the money on that road. We already have train tracks in the same direction and area. Let’s utilize them. It’s not worth destroying our forest and land, and even perhaps forcing people to sell their property.
And they’ll be no real lasting job creation. We must get away from an asphalt jungle mentality. We are simply perpetuating a continued problem of dependency on oil.
We must return to our roots of manufacturing and not of the small business mentality hyped as a catch all to growth. We need 3 shifts working 24/7 employing hundreds per shift.
$ spent on route 2 will come from whom? The private entity wants a new divided highway. The state and the country are broke. Why not let the rich guys spend their money. You know for sure they’ll be no lasting job creation? Maine an asphalt jungle? That’s a good one! Can you tune in your crystal ball to also give me some good stock tips and the winning lottery numbers?
Stock tips, (ok) invest in America and it’s people. Lottery, only for fools, desperate at that and just as greedy. Only one thing worst then a corrupt rich person and that’s an ignorant poor fool with money.
Yes, private enterprise, say like BIW or Saco Defense. Who needs government funded jobs?
BIW employees over 4,000 people to
My point is that when a company builds a product for whom the only customer is the federal government, I have a bit of a problem calling that private enterprise.
Will the reign of NIMBY crybabies ever end? We finally extend a clearly utilized and needed form of mass transportation, and I am sure many of these people complaining were all for this. Then they whine and complain about the noise. I am really getting tired of these types.
Is it profitable?
are highways profitable?
or essential service airlines
Some are very profitable, so profitable that some people want to personally build an east/west highway in Maine, without the government
And the vast majority are not, but nice dodge! Those wanting to build the east/west highway need the government and the state to an extensive degree — they’re hard want to build it “personally.”
Yeah, without government…..’Except for that $300,000 we marked to study the road…..and counting.
To be repaid if they build it
Right- “if”. There is no guarantee there.
IF!
i’m not the on trying to mislead people, that was beltrams
I am glad to hear the ridership is exceeding expectation!
Noisy living is awful. Can’t blame them for being annoyed.
They shouldn’t have bought a home near railroad tracks!
We have a winner!
Oh my god.. we have become a country of sissies… no windmills because it spoils the view, no dams because there might be a snail darter in the lake, no trains because they make noise!?
What did the people of Brunswick do for 50 years when steam trains went through town on a regular basis, and there was a small train yard behind Maine Street! They realized the the sounds were good for the people of Brunswick, that noise meant jobs, security and their little city was alive and vibrant. Now they don’t want a train to come through their town because it’s noisy…!!!!? There is no doubt noise from trucks, cars, harleys, rap etc.
Bring the damn trains to Bangor, to the Casino, to the new center, the waterfront… it would be $$$$ for Bangor!
Brunswick; a college town of wussies… Amazing.
It would be fantastic if they extended the passenger train service to Bangor. I doubt that will happen any time soon though.
It would be great! It won’t happen in our lifetime though I’m afraid. I spoke to to a higher up at Amtrak and he told me they are not even considering it. I’m sorry to say.
I am sorry to hear that, but not at all surprised. What a shame. I would ride it from Bangor to Augusta, to Portland, to Boston,etc. It would be great. Oh well….
It was a crime that they tore down the railroad station in Bangor during urban renewal. Have you seen photos of it? It could have been converted into something…shops, restaurants,etc. in that great space and architecture. Some horrible, misguided decisions were made then.
Yes I have seen them. Unbelievable that they could have torn down that beautiful station and put up that tin foil mall. Like you said cos, a crime.
My dad tells me of his rides to Boston as a young boy on the train to Boston to see the Red Sox. It would be great to be able to hop on a train and go to Bangor and back. It’s not to be I guess. It makes you wonder why Mainers are so reluctant to positive change?
Vote republican and make sure it WON’T happen.
Yessah
Amen!
BANANA: Built Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anyone.
I guess they will be putting up 22 foot high fences near your house to deaden the sound.. LOL!!!
180 riders per day is 80% more then projected. LOL!!! So they expected 100 riders a day.. How does amtrax expect to pay for this project?? My company couldn’t spend 10’s of millons expecting to gross $2000.00 a day. when it probably cost 5K a day to run it
it’s more about establishing the service and making sure the roadbed remains in good shape…. most of the rail in this state has been sent to China for pennies and we buy it back for dollars. And the rail right of way becomes footpaths or simply becomes overgrown and totally abandoned. Most of the old rail lines will be impossible to reclaim, ever.
Funny how you got downvoted for pointing out the math. No wonder we’re in such a financial mess!
Facts are not looked upon kindly by many. Its a rather sad commentary.
We also spend money subsidizing airlines, roads, farms, and many other things. Nowhere in the world does passenger rail make money on its own.
I love the sound of a train and a big diesel idling.
Growing up we had a train track going past the back of the house.
….It was for real live massive freight trains.4 engines, 100 cars +
I found the rumble soothing and if I would wake up in the
middle of the night I would roll over and sleep like a baby.
And snore like a steam locomotive.
I guess these complaining flatlanders didnt notice the tracks out back
when they bought their house ??
Maybe they should move out to the country near a farm.
Fresh country air and all.
I always like that one – “well, yeah I saw the tracks but I didn’t think they would actually run trains on them.” I guess it could be worse – how about the guy who buys a house in winter and then figures out there is a auto racing track down the street that only runs in the summer and makes a lot of noise.
Wish we could get a train between Bangor and Portland.
we need better public transportation in each city first. Light rail would be great for Portland.
The first train of the day goes by the house at 0330 in my parts. I don’t even hear it anymore.Get a night job, problem solved.
The way these people are complaining, it sounds like they are uber-intellectuals on lengthy sabbaticals trying to write their master work. Sorry folks, you are not going to find the quiet of the Allagash in Brunswick.
As others have said already, what did you people do when the military was in town? I mean, other than take their money.
Is there any wonder why Maine’s economy lags behind, a few people complaining can throw a monkey wrench into any good idea. I hope they don’t shut down this train that is so good for Maine.
I remember moving to a street in a city where buses ran all night. the first few nights, when they hit their air brakes right in front of my house, you had to pry me from the ceiling. After that, it never bothered me. Get over it, you will soon not even hear it.
I live very close to the train crossing. It’s not At all that bad. The only issue I have is when the train comes screaming through at 2 or 3 am which is not often but it does happen. All in all the train is a very good thing for brunswick
That time of night those are freight trains, not the Downeaster.
Oh, STOP SERVICE ANY FURTHER NORTH OF BOSTON…
The supporters of the train in Brunswick greatly outnumber the two or three who are opposed. Of course, that would not make for a good article.
Gee, there was the same thing in Rockland, people buy a house near or next to the rail road and then whine about the train noise, go figure!
EXACTLY! I live in Camden and we’ve had to deal with the “concerns” of people who bought property next to the boat yard or launching ramp and then were “surprised” when the neighboring property’s activity level became more like it was a century ago instead of less. It’s the obligation of anyone buying a home anywhere to understand what can happen around them.
Gotta gripe about something, huh? If you buy land next to an industrial zone, interstate, rail line, quarry, schoolyard, you either expect noise and/or vibration, or seriously need a reality check for lack of blood flow north of the shoulders.
LISTEN PEOPLE…..the good citizens of Rockland whined, complained, and acted stupid. When you buy property along a railroad expect noise! As far as the maintenance facility…..sell your house and move. Really, do you know how much noice will be generated? You’re all assuming….what noise are you expecting? Repairs are done inside. I’ve been in many railroad repair facilities, they are amazingly quiet. There is more noise from people yacking on their cell phones in public places, horns honking, and screaming children.
Agreed 911. And for those folk’s who want to keep on crying, please, us folk’s up here in The County will be more than happy to take the train’s maintenance shop’s (and the JOB’S that go wih them) and their associated revenue’s. And for those who keep on whing about the noise, keep this in mind. Complaints like this are frequently seen, and used, as the basis for an EMINENT DOMAIN TAKING being done. That means the facilities yard’s AND ALL PROPERTY SURROUNDING IT are very likey to be taken in order to satisfy the whiner’s and cryer’s. So go ahead, make the noise. And the next noise you’ll hear is the sound of you writing that check to the lawyer to defend what you brought on yourself. You had better make dammed sure that the doghouse is empty before you go sticking your head in. You might not like what you wind up with.
I would like to hear the train noise in Bangor.
There is no reason for the locomotives to idle at the station at all. The only reason they do so is because “it’s how it’s always been done.”
You’re right, the trains wouldn’t have to idle if they were parked inside a heated indoor layover facility. But the same folks complaining about the idling are the ones who don’t want the layover facility to be built.
That’s it! TAKE IT AWAY!
How about when trains that ran through there were steam, and the boilers roared. Come on stop complaining. You wanted the train, you got it. I can hardly wait for it to get to Augusta and I won’t mind the noise.
what a bunch of whiners,trains been there longer then the people living there.don’t like it move.
45 riders per one way trip.
Just about a busload.
At 100 gals per hour, the train burns about 50 gals of fuel per trip
At 6 miles per gal, the bus burns 5 gals.
10 times the fuel.
Government accounting at it’s best.
I can’t wait until these rocket scientists are looking after my healthcare.
How much money does route 1 make?
Been to Kittery or Ogunquit lately? The answer is Rt1 makes a boat load of $ for both private enterprise and the state.
Not using the rubric that Yowsa set out it doesn’t.
How is this relevant to what I posted?
The fact that the carbon footprint as well as the amount of money spent ONLY for fuel for the Brunswick to Portland leg of this boondoggle is 10 times larger than the bus, and you whackos call it “green”?
Seriously though……..are your math skills so poor that you can’t see this as a losing proposition for years to come?
Buses get stuck in traffic (using fuel when not moving) and can be delayed by accidents, weather, and other things. Trains generally aren’t affected by weather, and aren’t affected by traffic the same way things using the roads are.
Nowhere in the world does passenger rail make a profit on its own. We subsidize roads, airlines, and other forms of transportation.
Even the NYC subway with millions of users a day, doesn’t make enough money to cover its costs.
We even subsidize Walmart by providing their employees with Medicaid since they don’t provide it themselves.
The train does not just take the 180 people from Brunswick to Portland and stop. It does the entire route, picking up more along the way.
You already have “rocket scientists” looking after your healthcare; every insurance company has people deciding what they will pay for and what they won’t pay for.
WOW!
With your logic, you must work for the government.
No, but I don’t think it is evil or bad every time the government spends one penny on something. We live in a society- if you don’t want to participate, go find a tropical island to live on by yourself.
I’m not really sure what’s wrong with my logic. The train goes the whole length of the route. Highways are built to go many places, most of which are not heavily traveled. If we only built highways where they were heavily traveled, you wouldn’t be able to get to most of Maine or anywhere.
Maine…with every positive development, it seems like its one step forward and three steps back due to regulation and legislation because somebody complains. Our state officials need to stop pandering to special interests and work for the greater good of the populas as a whole.
Sullivan just wants a job. Give him one.
Bring the train to Augusta and Bangor please! Or at least get the buses to Augusta for the train.
I used to live one block from the train station in a very busy commuter train area. Took two months until the train sounds receded into the background noise.
OK, move next to a rail line you very well might experience trains, comes with the territory. Doesn’t matter if no train has been thru in decades, it might tomorrow. Rails carry trains.
But to IDLE a diesel train for 5.5 hours inside the city? That is just Amtrak being cheap, assigning older locomotives that need to run constantly to the Downeaster. Plug it in! Sure, an electric plant might pollute some (or not, think: tidal, wind, hydro…) but it is way more efficient than onboard diesel engines, within city limits.
Go ahead and propose building some new tidal, wind, or hydro plants. You think you have some NIMBY complaining now, just wait until you mention possibly cutting down some trees, blocking up a river, or interrupting the pristine ocean floor.
I’ve never been able to figure this out-people buy a house near the railroad tracks and expect trains to run noiselessly or they buy a house near the airport and complain about the noise of the planes. Sorry, folks, but stupid is as stupid does. Over the years, I have lived quite near two major rail corridors and within the flight path of major airports and NEITHER significantly affected my quality of life. As others have stated, you get used to the sounds to where you don’t notice them. Time to pull on the big-boy pants and get over it.
Obviously the complainers are reading the comments and not liking what they see, as I have never seen so many comments with at least one thumbs down in any story I’ve read so far.
When the Middle East finally erupts into World War Three and gas is $7.95 a gallon or more that train will be pretty popular…even if it makes the noise of the Space Shuttle taking off.
After Brunswick – Waterville? Then, Augusta? And then Bangor?
Re-locate the shopping plaza. Or, build a platform behind it. Here’s one noise that heralds safe, economic, and leisurely travel.
Who gives a hoot over a toot?
Oh, come on you whiners and complainers, if you didn’t want train noise you probably shouldn’t have bought or rented a house by the tracks or live in town for that matter.
What would they have done back 45-50 years ago when there was regular train traffic?
And before someone says I don’t know about train traffic, I grew up in Freeport when the trains ran regularly and after awhile you’ll get use to it. Of course there are those that just want too whine and complain no matter what.
I have a much easier answer for the locals in Brunswick who are bothered by the train noise. if these trains really do bother you and concerned about the way of life in Brunswick, then simply move out to places where there are no rail road tracks. It’s that simple! Leave the Downeaster alone.
Liberal moonbatts wanted “public transportation”…They feel safer with people packed into a traincar like cattle…They think they save “gas”!….They follow algore and his global warming climatey changey fantasies and want to be part of this delusion!
Stop complaining about a little noise!…CATTLE TRAINS MAKE NOISE! You wanted it…you got it…now live with it!