ORONO, Maine — Johanna Szillery of Old Town came to meet her neighbors.
The Rev. John Buhr, pastor of Pathway Community Church in Newport, attended so he would be better equipped to answer questions from his congregation about Islam.
Lindsey Piper of Belfast brought her sister, who married a Jordanian and is a Muslim, to meet other followers of her faith.
They were among the more than 200 people who attended the third annual open house at the Islamic Center of Maine, 151 Park St., on Saturday. The topic, “ The Quran: Learn It or Burn It?” drew the largest crowd the mosque, which was completed two years ago, has hosted, according to Jenan Jondy, outreach coordinator.
“Last year, we ran out of chairs,” she said as the two-hour session ended. “So, this year, we bought 50 more and they were filled.”
The event began with members of the mosque reciting evening prayers, then moved into a talk peppered with humor by Dr. Muhammad A. Mir. Using a computer that projected images on a wall of the mosque, he included a warning that said: “Parts of the presentation are boring.”
Mir went through the history of the religion and explained what was happening in the Arab world when Mohammed received his first revelation from Allah in 609 A.D. The words, “Wine, wars, wealth, words and women,” appeared on the wall as Mir explained that tribal warfare fueled by a desire to accumulate property dominated a society where alcohol use was excessive. The culture valued the spoken word over other art forms, such as painting, and treated women as commodities.
Muslim’s holy book, the Quran, was Allah’s message to Mohammed just as the Torah, a text sacred to Jews, was God’s message to Moses and the lessons of the Christian Gospels were God’s message to Jesus, Mir said.
The Quran addressed many of those societal ills by forbidding the use of alcohol, laying out when followers of Islam should use violence and giving rights to women that reversed the tribal practice that considered females to be property.
In answer to a question about the suicide bombers who were involved in the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States, Mir urged those in attendance not to “focus on the bomber, focus on the suicide part.” Suicide is forbidden by the Quran.
“We view [suicide bombings] more as a sociopolitical act than a religious action,” Mir said.
Another audience member asked what the Quran said about “same-sex loving couples.”
“Homosexuality is considered a sin in our faith,” Mir replied.
The crowd remained respectful and attentive.
“I am in awe of and humbled by your dedication to following Allah,” Szillery, who attends the Church of Universal Fellowship in Orono, said during the question and answer period. “What has your reception been like in Maine?”
Mir, an internist at Eastern Maine Medical Center, said that northern Maine “is the best place to be a minority.”
Jondy said that before moving to Greater Bangor with her husband, Dr. Mohammad Tabbah, and their children, she went shopping at the Bangor Mall and stores nearby to gauge how people reacted to her.
“I have had a very positive reaction,” she said. “People have been so friendly and so kind.”
Jondy said that the information disseminated at Saturday’s event will reach far beyond the people who attended because they will share what they learned with family and friends who in turn will talk to neighbors and co-workers.
“That is the thing I absolutely love about the open house,” she said. “People come here, they learn about Islam and they take it back home and share it.”
Over the past three years, Jondy estimated the center’s outreach program has reached 3,500 people at events at the mosque, at presentations at area businesses and schools and by email.
“When we share our beliefs and people learn about Islam, we break down a lot of barriers,” she said.
For information on the Islamic Center of Maine and its activities, visit www.theicmo.com or call 866-3410.
Islam..a religion of pieces.
and we all know how peaceful Christianity has been through the ages
See, the point is – Christianity has moved on. Islam has not.
The great faith’s aren’t football teams, Jim. Your thinking’s exactly the sort that made for terrible religion-fueled civil conflicts in Bosnia, Kosovo, Lebanon and Ireland, for starters–modern examples too.
You will believe what you want. Here is a truth for you to think on: Islam is not – and never has been – JUST a religion. Islam is a complete way of life. It specifies social rules, what to think, what to believe, how to live. Under Islam, there is no room for democracy because Allah doesn’t debate the proper course for society. The proper course is already laid down, and has been for 1300 years. You do not get to cherry pick the parts you like, and you do not get to ignore the rest, or the parts you don’t especially like. And, here’s a fun fact! Three of the four conflicts you just cited were started by Muslims!
kinda like what the religious reich wants for america. Right wing protestent based laws
Most laws from the founding of this nation are based on “Right-wing Protestant” based laws. A big portion of what we started with, were British common laws, which were based on biblical laws. The founders did a great job of erasing the specifically religious laws from the books, though.
But no, people who are conservative, like me, and Christian… Don’t want any such thing. We don’t want a theocracy any more than you do. We don’t want to see that kind of power in the hands of one person, no matter how “Christian” they claim they are.
Yes, Jim—You tell ’em. And we need to suggest that people read the history of Islam from about 700 AD to about 1400 AD or so. So that they can see for themselves that the “Religion of Peace” was actually a religion of military conquest, which is why it spread so quickly.
In some parts of the world, military force is still being used; in this country, PR campaigns and perversion of law courts is the current method.
Even after 1400. Here’s a fun fact: We’ve all heard that “in 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue…” But do you know what else happened in 1492? On January 2, 1492, the Catholic king of Spain won the Battle of Granada, thereby ending 800 years of Muslim domination of Spain.
And I am sure you believe that Columbus discovered America too.
Well, my money is on the Vikings, but some people think that various Chinese junks made it even before that.
http://www.pc.gc.ca/lhn-nhs/nl/meadows/index.aspx
Does this mean we AGREE on something?!?!
Let’s just say I was saving you from a pointless wager.
Read the books I linked to. They’re much better than YouTube videos, and they’re pretty good starting points for trying to understand an extremely important part of the world.
Your understanding of the history of the conflicts in Bosnia, Kosovo and Lebanon, like your views about Islam, are ignorant.
You do know the difference between violent religious extremists (Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu) and mainstream religious people, right? You might have attended the meeting the article’s about, and you might have learned something.
So you’re saying Bosnia, Kosovo and Lebanon conflicts had nothing to do with Muslims waging Jihad?
… Okay.
Jim said Muslims started these conflicts. That is incorrect.
More atrocities Have been done in the name of religion than anything else.
Yup. But, just lately, we have a new champion!
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#Attacks
That’s a link to an Islamophobia site.
Oh, really? What vicious attacks on that list are made up?
You are judging mainstream followers of one of the world’s great faiths based on actions by ignorant extremists.
You don’t judge all Orthodox Christians by the actions of murdering fascists, do you?
You don’t judge all Catholics by the actions of pedophiles, do you?
You don’t judge all Northern Irish Protestants by the actions of terrorist thugs, do you?
You don’t judge all devout Jews by the actions of misogynists, do you?
You don’t judge Baptists by gross, incredibly disrespectful “preachers” from KS, do you?
So, why are you insisting on judging all Muslims based on the actions of extremists?
I’m not religious–maybe you are–but the problem isn’t the religion, and it’s not the overwhelming majority of people who follow it to live decent lives, themselves and in relation to others–the problem is extremists, violent and hateful radicals.
Well, um, quite possibly true, but only if you define Communism as a religion, which is not difficult if you look at the history of Communism.
I wish I had known about this. It sounds like a wonderful way to directly learn about a faith which is demonized by the media and anti-intellectuals in this country.
“Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil.” Thomas Mann
Not saying that all Muslims are radicals, but any honest look at the recent polling data suggests that over 70% of Muslims in the Middle East are fundamentalists.
Never forget Beslan.
There is a stark difference between ‘Fundamentalist’ and ‘Extremist’. Of course you wouldn’t apply the same logic to Protestant Christians just because the KKK kills people in the name of God, would you? They’re technically fundamentalists, but they made the difference to take it to the extreme and harm others. There is no difference here. Islamic people are peaceful. It’s the extremists that have twisted the religion’s message to suit their ambitions.
http://www.wnd.com/2012/02/ayatollah-kill-all-jews-annihilate-israel/
Yeah. Name a Christian or Hindi state that is threatening to do this.
Your parsing of words is symptomatic of pseudo-intellectuals who want to link the obvious and certain threats to some vacuous and improbable threat that has not and will not materialize.
go back and read some history. Christians already tried that.
Yes, a Christian Theocracy is demanding the destruction of an entire people. LOL. Where and when was that again?
And no links to some wacko sites that show nothing of the sort please…they annoy the readers.
The Muslim apologists don’t want people to see maps like this…
http://www.globalincidentmap.com/threatmatrix.php#globalim
Note the number of violent terrorist acts in just the last month. The apologists would probably try and spin it as “Blond haired blue eyed KKK Lutherans”…lol
Umm…..Europe – 300 AD to about 1600 AD. You know when the Vatican was the supreme power and we spent centuries fighting The Crusades to destroy all Muslims.
Please keep in mind that The Crusades were the Christian RESPONSE to previous Muslim aggression against the west. This is exhaustively documented in thousands of places.
Here.
Not all Arabs are Muslims (true!) but this is a good readable intro to the Arab world.
http://www.amazon.com/Arabs-History-Eugene-Rogan/dp/0465025048/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1328551600&sr=8-1
Good history of the Ottoman Turks.
http://www.amazon.com/Osmans-Dream-History-Ottoman-Empire/dp/0465023975/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1328551615&sr=1-1
Crowley’s written some good histories of the Mediterranean.
http://www.amazon.com/Empires-Sea-Battle-Lepanto-Contest/dp/0571232302/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_5
http://www.amazon.com/1453-Holy-Constantinople-Clash-Islam/dp/1401308503/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_3
Jelavich’s books are scholarly, but her interests are southeastern Europe, where the Christian and Muslim world’s did meet.
http://www.amazon.com/History-Balkans-Vol-Eighteenth-Publication/dp/0521274583/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1328551839&sr=1-1
This one I’ve not read, but the reviews look good–and the reason why we’re all talking about East-West and Christian-Muslim is what continues to happen in the Levant.
http://www.amazon.com/Jerusalem-Biography-Simon-Sebag-Montefiore/dp/0307266516/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1328551947&sr=1-1
You DO know that the Crusades were a response to Muslim aggression, don’t you?
Please note some historians consider the Armada attack against protestant England as the “last crusade.
Christians slaughtering Pagans, who the Christians basically stole their religion from….Inquisitions…..or how about Catholics/Protestants in England….or even Hitler, he was Christian. Point being, Christians should not forget their own history, and that every religion holds their own extremists. The Bible is not all peace and love either.
“The term “crusade” is also used to describe religiously motivated campaigns conducted between 1100 and 1600 in territories outside the Levant[5] usually against pagans, heretics, and peoples under the ban of excommunication[6] for a mixture of religious, economic, and political reasons.[7] ” (wiki)
I love it when people try and label Hitler a Christian. It’d be comical if it wasn’t so twistedly evil.
Hitler was about as Christian as Obama, Bush, Clinton, or just about any other politician that claims the predominant group’s viewpoint for votes. Hitler was ELECTED to office, and then set up a bunch of policies and such so he didn’t lose that power… Much like what is happening here in the United States today (the “PATRIOT Act” for starters).
Also, the Swastika, which is the symbol of the National Socialist German Worker’s Party (NAZI party, and don’t you just like it how Hitler labeled himself a “socialist”?) was originally a German pagan symbol. It is the symbol of the “fire god,” which represents the “fire wheel” which brought to life all things, by the sparks that flew from the wheel which solidified and became… Stuff.
This “returning Germany to the Germans” that Hitler wanted was culteral too. Nazi Germany saw the replacement of The Cross with the swastika, on gravestones, on government buildings, on everything! Hitler hated Christians just as much as he hated Jews! He hated anyone that opposed him, and that’s about what it boiled down to.
Not so Christian, hmmm?
Learn your history, Islam was not founded until the 700’s.
a wacko site like WND? lol…again, I say go back and read about all the people Christians have slaughtered. It happened.
Not, however, in the 21st Century.
“Name a Christian or Hindi state that is threatening to do this.”
The USA.
See: http://www.rightwingwatch.org/category/subjects/dominionism
or :
A Christian Plot for Domination?
Michele Bachmann and Rick Perry aren’t just devout—both have deep ties to a fringe fundamentalist movement known as Dominionism, which says Christians should rule the world.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/08/14/dominionism-michele-bachmann-and-rick-perry-s-dangerous-religious-bond.html
Now, pay close attention :
1) If you say these just the extremist fringe in your faith,
then listen to those Muslims saying to you that the Islamists
are just like that to their religion , too.
2) If you were to listen to these Christian heretics …
(these wolves in wool suits, these new age, “Prophets of God” and their Neo-apostles , who are very active and increasingly influential in American conservative politics)
… as they claim to speak for God and all Christians, which they clearly like to do, then what would YOU think of Christianity in America ?
The KKK used to kill people, maybe still does, but there are not 1.5 BILLION of them!
But there are 2,100,000,000 Christians in the world and we don’t condemn them all for the actions of a few do we?
No, we don’t. That’d be like blaming all blacks for the criminal actions of a few… It’s known as racism, which isn’t okay. But it’s perfectly “okay” to hate Christians? Excelent point, jd2008jd.
As a Christian, I certainly DO NOT share a brotherhood of any kind with members of the KKK. They might call themselves “Christian,” but they’re about as Christian as any other pretender. Jesus never gave a hate speech, hated people because of their skin color, or any such nonsense.
In fact, why a group like the KKK would revere someone such as Jesus (you know, since they’re “Christian” and all that… lol!), who was a middle-eastern Jew who probably had brown eyes, olive-tan skin, and dark hair… Is beyond all comprehension.
To be perfectly honest, Jim, if Muslims where the fearful bogey men you ignorantly make them out to be, you would not be here writing any of this. There are 1.5 (actually, more like 1.6-1.7) billion afterall.
Lock the door.
I still think you might have gone to the Center and listened. It wouldn’t have hurt you. These people weren’t converting anyone.
The point of those types of events, held at a mosque, is to ease the minds of people who are doubtful of Islam. They are trying to convert you. That’s the whole charter of Islam, conversion by any means necessary. By lying to you and by force or threat of violence.
If you actually studied what Islam is, says, and does… You wouldn’t be so forgiving of their faith. In fact, most Muslims growing up don’t know that Islam is as evil as it really truly is. When they do find out, and want to get away from it, they CAN’T for fear of death. Leaving Islam is punishable by DEATH, and Muslims can (and DO) carry out this penality. Even here in this country, it is done, but the vast majority of it is done in Islamic countries, far and away from western eyes and ears.
If you don’t believe me about Muslim apostates, go do a search on Muslim apostates and read their testimonials. Read about how scared they were to flee their home country, where they grew up and lived most of their life, their friends and family and loved ones, just to be rid of Islam! They risk it all, just to get away! Now, why is that? Certainly not because it’s the “religion of peace” they say it is.
I’ve studied Islam, thanks.
I’m not forgiving nor damning.
I consider Catholicism and people who call themselves Catholics pretty much the same way I consider Islam and people who call themselves Muslims.
I condemn Catholicism too, since it strays far from the path of what Jesus taught by example. Much of Catholicism (not all Catholics) are like the Pharisees of Jesus’ time, which valued tradition and laws over righteousness. Catholicism was used as an excuse to do a lot of evil things, contrary to what is attributed to Jesus.
Islam is just plain evil, with verses on lopping off the hands and heads of unbelievers. Verses on killing “people of the book” should they not submit, not pay the Jizya tax. I really doubt you’ve actually studied Islam, and if you have and still don’t want to label it as evil… Well, you’re either Muslim or ignorant of the facts.
You’d be incorrect.
I’ve studied Islam and I’ve closely read the Koran. Also closely read the Bible — King James and, let’s see, the new American Catholic Bible that came out in the 1970s. The Bible has things you could pick out of it if you wanted to make a case about how bad Christians were. Deuteronomy has stuff about stoning non-believers.
I don’t condemn Catholicism. Many Catholics do a lot of good in the name of their specific faith. They’re not evil because the church hierarchy is of a medieval, power hungry mindset no more than Jews are not evil because a few Orthodox ones have terrible views about the place of women and girls.
Also, and I somewhat disagree about the intent of the meetings. Sure, like an Evangelical Christian there are Muslims who’s like nothing better that I attend their meeting and find salvation following their path.
However, these meetings, as per the article, seemed feared to making the Muslim community in the Bangor area a little less insular and a lot more understood by non-Muslims.
If there weren’t trying to do these many people would be writing here about these people being to inward looking, not interacting with people outside their community, not assimilating.
To look at it another way: When was the last time you went to a bean supper and left it converted to United Methodism? Would you not go to a bean supper out of fear or anxiety at being converted?
“Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil.” Thomas Mann
Yeah., so I’m tired of pretending to respect foolish conservatives.
Like those that those you can cut taxes and balance the budget
… or that think freedom of religion was intend by the Founding Fathers
to only be for them.
This is why we do not trust Liberals with important duties like defending the country.
obama seems to be doing a better job than bush–
and what is this “we”? something in your pocket?
Wake up.
Look to to the danger within, TOO.
It is not liberals running for POTUS who are comporting with extremists who would suspend the US Constitution, and who say plainly, that is their intention.
But the first problem is … sure, it is too weird to believe :
“But because it seems so outré, getting ordinary people to take it seriously can be difficult.”
Yet, their influence is real, as evidenced right here.
If you are not one of theses anti-American values and liberty heretics, why be upset by my pointing out that they exist ?
WHY IS POINTING OUT THAT THEY EXIST AND WHAT THEY BELIEVE, THEIR HERECY, ME ATTACKING ALL CHRISTIANS ?
Where is that paranoia coming from, my fellow Pilgrims ?
You must sort that out on your own, because I have no part in that thinking. Pray on it.
But who IS making it US vs THEM, so who dividing our society and culture ? There is always only only point in doing that,
but politics and revolutionary theory aside,
is that what your personal Savior taught you ?
It is SOME conservative “christians” who would destroy your freedom of religion far sooner than any liberal movement ever might.
Look there, first, or you are not really looking at all.
Who are you going believe, people who say they, and they alone, speak to and for God, directly, because they are His ” new prophets” or me,
as I say use your computer to do your own research on who and what those new false Prophets are saying ?
For your own love of God, search the keywords on you own, and find out what the New Apostolic Reformation means by controlling the “Seven Mountains” and decide for yourself if that is you what think is your personal Savior’s, Jesus, the Christ , message.
That is all that I’m (we liberals are) asking of you.
“Most writers, myself included, who explore it have been called paranoid. …In a contemptuous 2006 First Things review of several books, including Kevin Phillips’ American Theocracy, and my own Kingdom Coming: The Rise of Christian Nationalism, conservative columnist Ross Douthat wrote, “the fear of theocracy has become a defining panic of the Bush era.”Now, however, we have the most theocratic Republican field in American history, and suddenly, the concept of Dominionism is reaching mainstream audiences. Writing about Bachmann in The New Yorker this month, Ryan Lizza spent several paragraphs explaining how the premise fit into the Minnesota congresswoman’s intellectual and theological development. And a recent Texas Observer cover story on Rick Perry examined his relationship with the New Apostolic Reformation, a Dominionist variant of Pentecostalism that coalesced about a decade ago. “[W]hat makes the New Apostolic Reformation movement so potent is its growing fascination with infiltrating politics and government,” wrote Forrest Wilder. Its members “believe Christians—certain Christians—are destined to not just take ‘dominion’ over government, but stealthily climb to the commanding heights of what they term the ‘Seven Mountains’ of society, including the media and the arts and entertainment world.”
http://www.thedailybeast.com/a…
I have read your post three times. I think you have answered all of my questions.
“The (true) servants of (God)
the Most Gracious are those who walk on the earth in humility, and when
the ignorant address them, reply with (words of) peace.”
The Holy Quran, 25:63.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIKCgRlwQUA
And how many fundamentalists Christians do we have in the US? That doesn’t make them extremists does it? Millions and millions of Muslims live peacefully here and all over the world.
I’m sure you are right. It is probably just a coincidence that 99% of all the beheadings, attacks of Christians, honor killings, stonings, choppings off of hands and feet, and trials for witchcraft are attributed to Muslims. Just a mean-spirited coincidence. Oh, and did I mention female genital mutilation? Or even plain old garden variety murder?
http://www.islam-watch.org/
http://www.prophetofdoom.net/Islamic_Quotes_Terrorism.Islam
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.citizenwarrior.com/2008/10/least-you-need-to-know-about-islam.html
http://www.middle-east-info.org/gateway/womenchildabuse/
http://islamexposed.blogspot.com/2010/08/reliance-of-traveller-handbook-of.html
No thanks.
Are you an ignorant bigot or what?
Ignorant is as ignorant does. Have a nice day.
This just in, statistics (and facts) are now considered to be ignorant and bigoted… News at 10.
Like all religions, this one is just a bunch of words that can be interperted almost any way one chooses. It is the religious zealots and their followers that are dangerous and unpredictable.
Anyone who says that they know the will of God is insane, or lying.
Why do others …
(those any smarter than pro wrestling fans, anyway)
… listen to them ?
You are wrong on this. In Islam, you may NOT interpret the scriptures and just take from them what you like. You take it all, without any change whatsoever. Or DIE! They will kill an apostate Muslim quicker than they’ll kill anything else. Do not take my word on this; go out on the Internet and find out for yourself.
Right again, Jim–all you need to do is check out what muslims do to Bahai, and have been doing for about 150 years.
Bahai, Copts, Christians, Animists, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, Alawites, Shias (Sunnis), Sunnis (Shias), Did I leave anybody out? Yep. ANYbody, who does not FULLY subscribe to the tenets of whichever branch of Islam is concerned, must DIE.
…..
Well, not ALL religions. Hinduism has traditionally adopted and incorporated competing religions into itself. That’s why there are hundreds of Gods in Hinduism. They were all regional/tribal gods before, but have been incorporated over thousands of years. But I will agree, most ‘western’ religions are exclusive organizations, and that is indeed a very sad thing. They preach kindness and family values, but won’t extend that to someone who disagrees on the name of the invisible man in the sky.
….
Thats why I am a Devoted Michelobian!
…..
Jesus Christ is the Messiah, the King of Kings, God incarnate. There is no other name under heaven by which man can be saved.
Zeus is the God of all God’s so you should bow down to him.
I would think you would support and embrace Islam cp444…”“Homosexuality is considered a sin in our faith,” Mir replied.”
You really need to be more accepting of others faiths and beliefs.
“Christ is the Messiah, the King of Kings, God incarnate. There is no other name under heaven by which man can be saved.”
Not the Holy Spirit ?
Oh, my !!
Now, let’s see how riled up I’ve make the Neo-Pharisees ?
lol
“And
they say, The All-merciful has taken unto Himself a son. You have
indeed advanced something hideous. As if the skies are about to
burst, the earth to split asunder and its mountain to fall down in
the utter ruin for that they have attributed to the All-merciful a
son; and behaves not the All-merciful to take a son. None there in
the heavens and earth but comes to the All-merciful as a servant”
(Maryam 19:88-93)
Muslim’s should not worry too much. Us atheist are still the most distrusted in the United States.
“And it is He who spread out the earth, and set thereon mountains
standing firm and (flowing) rivers; and fruit of every kind He made in
pairs, two and two; He draweth the night as a veil over the Day. Behold,
verily in these things there are signs for those who consider.” (13:3)
I wonder if they made the women sit in the back, in keeping with their practice, or if they made an acception for appearance sake??
Just like the conservative Jews do, too ?
And while we are on the topic, when are there going to woman Priests, Bishop Malone ?
Anyone have other questions about Christians treat women ?
“As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent
in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in
submission as the law says. If they want to inquire about something,
they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a
woman to speak in the church.” (I Corinthians 14:34-35)
Did Jesus say that ?
That does not sound much like Him , does it ?
: )
Wow….take your blinders off so you can see reality!
Right back at you.
That was exactly my point, too.
Probably resorted to Kithman:
“Kithman: Hiding the Truth
Kithman is a command to deliberately conceal one’s beliefs. It is a particular form of lying primarily practiced by the minority Shia’ Muslims. This doctrine is articulated by Iman Jafar Sadiq, the sixth Imam of Shia’ Islam:
‘One, who exposes something from our religion is like one who intentionally kills us. You belong to a religion that whosoever conceals it, Allah will honor him and whosoever reveals it, Allah will disgrace him.’
So Shia’ Muslims are commanded to purposefully hide what they truly believe in order to mislead outsiders as to the true nature of their religion.”
Understanding Dishonesty and Deceit in Islam
http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/JR/Future/ch16_understanding_dishonesty.htm
To put that into a realist perspective for your average conservative Christian, ..
Okay so if you are really a Christin then you know what Calvinist believe.
So what do they believe ?
Oh, okay, so explain, then, in terms of the Bible,
how come Calvinists associate the grace of God with personal wealth.
In the world of non-sequitur, your comment reigns supreme.
Thanks.
Yeah, ain’t this taking religion stuff, here, just a world of non-sequiturs ?
lol
Thank you! I have renewed confidence that some people understand the threat of Islam. It’s unfortunate that so many are so blind, or in denial because they NEED to FEEL they are politically correct, regardless of the truth.
You’re welcome.
I guess truth will out, sometimes it takes longer than other times.
Ehh, I don’t really wanna do either. As long as no one is burning stakes or rambling on all day about their religion and everybody is trying to get along. What do I care?
When Islam respects Israel’s right to existence and STOPS the terrorist attacks against Israelis and Israel, then I will begin to consider having some respect for Islam and Muslims. When Islam and Muslims respect women and treat them equal to men, allows women education, allows women the right to drive, allows women to vote, allows women the right to hold property, allows women to be clerics in Islam and, basically, allows women the same opportunities as men throughout the Muslim world, then I may begin to have some respect for Islam and Muslims. But I have seen far too many incidents of killing innocents – and particularly women and children, by Muslims to begin to have any respect for Islam at this time.
Aren’t the Israelis a tribe just like the Palestinians? Didn’t the Israelis battle the British and form a nation out of Palestine which was going to be divided by the UN in 1947? That area of the world has been fought over, ruled over and fought over again for thousands of years.
More people have been killed in the name of religion than time can possible remember.
Does Israel have a right to exist? Yes But what about the Palestinians? Don’t they have a right to exist too?
The Arabs who live in the areas called “Palestine” belong either in Egypt or Jordan. Those are the countries they were part of in the 1920’s.
From the maps Iooked at, the area called Palestine was not part of any country at the founding of Israel. And you just described the issue perfectly. The Arab countries that feel Israel has no right to exist feel that way because the country of Israel was formed out of lands the Arab countries feel is their land.
I support israel but i wonder what all the supporters would say if they carved a jewish homeland out of northern Maine– I remember some comments being made during the indian land claims
Excellent point.
It might behoove us to remember that the Jews lived there in Israel for about 5,000 years. Heck, they lost wars and were evicted from their homeland twice that I’m aware of. Once in 516 BC (exiled en masse to Babylon), and later in 70 AD, following the destruction of the Second Temple by the Romans at the end of the Great Jewish Revolt. That was the beginning of the Diaspora. Squatters moved into Israel after the first exile too. They were dealt with. That is Jewish land. They paid for it in blood many, many times over the centuries. It might also be good to remember that the Arabs told the so-called Palestinians to get out of Israel in 1948, preparatory to the Arab invasion following the declaration of statehood of Israel. The plan was to drive the Jews into the sea and kill them all. Didn’t go according to plan. Jordan and Egypt never allowed the Arab refugees to settle in their countries, following the various wars since 1948 because they wanted to use them as pawns in the struggle to evict the Jews from Israel. We are now living in the Hebrew year of 5772. The Jews have been around a LONG time; they aren’t going anywhere.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_for_Palestine
You REALLY need to hit the history books.
Here: start with this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIKCgRlwQUA
Sorry Jim YouTube and Wiki are not “history” books that I tend to look to.
By the way, you didn’t offer anything to dispute what I posted.
No problem, Sir. Just keep up with the news; it will sort itself out. Oh, and don’t make friends with any cartoonists who draw cartoons poking fun at You-Know-Who; they tend to die suddenly.
I am fairly certain if I looked hard enough I could find an example or two of “Chriatians” taking offense at a “graven image” and dealing with it with killing the person.
I know you could. Wouldn’t even think of debating that. Christians have done what they have done. It is history. Now, let’s talk about who is killing who TODAY.
And what percentage of the Islamic religion participate in those killings?
Anders Behring Breivik: Right-wing extremist, Islamophobe, murderer, and “Christian.”
Fred Phelps: Anti-American, homophobe, and “Christian.”
Hey, jd, you could start with the Encyclopedia Britannica.
How so dad? What will I learn there?
If you do nothing else today, read this article: http://www.politicalislam.com/blog/the-fruit-of-islam/ I would like your considered opinion. For anybody else who see this, I highly recommend this article.
Thanks for the link – very nice.
You might be interested in this:
What Arab Civilization?
http://www.ninevehsoft.com/fiorina.htm
VERY interesting, and most informative! I thank you.
You’re most welcome.
The guy really gets it.
Here is an article from another direction: http://strategypage.com/htmw/htterr/20120206.aspx
There will be a Palestinian state alongside the Israeli state.
Medical advice: don’t hold your breath…
You don’t know history. Why would we think you could see the future.
“We [Allah] gave the Book [Torah] to the
Israelites and bestowed on them wisdom and prophethood. We provided
them with wholesome things and exalted them above the nations”.[Qur’an,
sura 45:17
And your rantings about how women are treated in Islam… don’t confuse Islam with cultural practices. Become educated before opening your mouth…
Men and Women are equal in Islam
For Muslim men and women,- for believing men and
women, for devout men and women, for true men and
women, for men and women who are patient and constant,
for men and women who humble themselves, for men and
women who give in Charity, for men and women who fast
(and deny themselves), for men and women who guard
their chastity, and for men and women who engage much
in Allah’s praise,- for them has Allah prepared forgiveness
and great reward.33:35 (in America women still get paid less for doing the same job and think that their right to wear revealing clothing empowers them),
Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was in his twenties when he married his first wife who owned her own extremely successful business. She was twenty years older than him, he worked for her and she asked him to marry her.
I truly urge you to learn about Islam and stop watching Fox news for all your information.
Glad to be able to draw out one of the self-righteous adherents to “the peaceful” religion… LOVED your statement (abbreviated herein) “In America women … think that their right to wear revealing clothing empowers them.” That indicates typical Muslim intolerance to any culture but their own – so get off your high horse. It’s not very far from that statement to the kind of beliefs that support ” honor killings.”
” Your rantings about how women are treated in Islam” Hmmm, now THAT not only smacks of self -righteous intolerance but also the type of rage seen in Muslims that have not enculturated themselves to the modern world and western civilization.
“We (Allah) gave the Book (Torah) to the Israelites and bestowed upon them wisdom and prophethood” …Now, I must confess historical ignorance, so I will have to contact a Rabbi to ask him or her if the Torah only came about through the magnanimous largesse of the “peaceful religion”. If, after all the Torah is only the result of the vastly superior, altruistic and loving Muslims deigning to grant a pittance of their vastly superior spirituality then I will stand corrected. But, somehow, I don’t think this will be the case.
Your words, your writing style and the use of quotes rather than your own thesis are those which I would normally expect from C.A.I.R. (Council for American Islamic Relations) – an organization known to have been historically affiliated with Hezbollah, HAMAS and other “charitable” organizations.
So throw about your xenophobic rants all you like – but when your reply in a venue such as this is a thinly veiled attack, expect a response, sweetie.
Do you know what factor makes one susceptible to being racist?
Yes. differing in one’s opinion from a Liberal.
No, displaying intolerance and hatred.
What I said, LOL!
See jim, there is another example of intolerance on your part. You know nothing about me but because I express an opinion that differs from yours you assume that I am a liberal.
Actually I am a registered Republican (have voted a straight Republican Presidential ticket since Reagan) that holds moderate views on some topics.
I don’t fear a religion based on what a few have done in its name. Even President G. W. Bush said that Islam is not our enemy and repeated that in his book.
But be careful with hatred, it will eventually eat you alive.
You do indeed surprise me! And I liked Mr. Bush, but I strongly disagreed with him on Islam. If you do nothing else for yourself, do this: Learn that Islam is not JUST a religion. It is an entire way of life. And government. When you think of it as “just” a religion, you miss the whole point. And you leave yourself vulnerable.
Let me ask you this then…
Do you believe abortion is the law of the land?
Do you believe that same sex marriage is a civil and not religious issue?
Do you believe that we are a nation of multiple religions where one religion holds no more sway over government than any other religion?
Do you beleive religion should be a kept out of the Presidential process?
Not germane to the discussion at hand.
Thank you for answering the questions by not answering the questions. Based on the agenda driven sites you use to support your arguments against Islam I knew the answers and also knew that you couldn’t answer them without showing your true colors.
You support a “Christian” nation where the Bible is the law of the land and “Christian” beliefs and views are adopted as the only views. That is not what the Founding Fathers had in mind when they created this nation we call home.
Let nobody doubt where my allegiance lies; thank you for pointing that out. Anyone, given a free choice, would opt to live in a Christian nation over a Muslim nation. This does not mean at all that we must BE Christians to live here, but that the tenets and values of the so-called “Christian World” are far superior and more uplifting to the individual (male or FEMALE) than those of the world of Islam. If you want to try a little thought problem, here’s an interesting one:
Grasp a copy of the Quran and walk down the street in any American city. What happens? (Nothing happens).
Walk down a street in Saudi Arabia with a copy of the bible in your hand, and see what happens. (Depends; that act alone is a punishable crime. If they think you brought your bible out to try to convert someone, it requires the death penalty.)
But try and build a Islamic Community Center with a Mosque in an old factory with “adult” orientated businesses on the same street and see what happens?
Religious freedom goes both ways but we (as a country) seem to conveniently forget that when it comes to people and faiths different from us.
You compare the mores of a whole culture to the local response of one town to a mosque? Huh.
“One town”? The out cry from the country was loud. Fox News covered it on a daily basis. The right called it the “Ground Zero Mosque” when a) wasn’t a Moaque at all and, b) could not even be seen from Ground Zero.
I say again, religious freedom goes both ways. And here is an interesting tune for you to either look up or listen to…”The Dying Fireman” by David Rovics.
This is your usual MO when you find yourself out of your league like you are here. You will make every attempt possible to change the subject into one of Law.
LOL “out of my league”
Translation – “I cannot come up with anything to dispute what you have posted so I will just use my bucket of paint and my big wide brush to paint everyone the same way”
~~~~~
“You will make every attempt possible to change the subject into one of Law. ”
cp444 – In the case of Same Sex Marriage it IS about Law…Civil Law. In this case, it is about Religious Freedom. Purchased in blood by our forefathers.
Don’t be surprised. Jd’s mission in life is gay marriage. He is consumed with it. Funny how he refuses to condemn the Muslims but takes the liberty to bash Christianity every chance he gets. Wonder what he’s afraid of?
cp444 nice judgmental “Christian” post there.
A) I have no issue with Same Sex Marriage. It is a CIVIL license by the state, not a religious one.
B) I refuse to condemn Muslims or the Islamic religion for the actions of a radicalized group of people that have perverted a religion to fit their needs.
C) I don’t “bash” Christians. I have pointed out and will continue to point out that our nation is a secular one and one that is not based on the rules of any one religion.
D) “Wonder what” I am “afraid off”? Really not much. I have an irrational fear of heights. But other than that, nothing.
“displaying intolerance and hatred.”
Odd that is what Jesus says keeps you from knowing him, too.
Matthew 7, vs 21 to 23
And what “intolerance and hatred” am I showing disqusbites? Some how I don’t think Jesus would have much of a problem pointing out the hypocrisy of self proclaimed follows of Christ condemning a whole group of people for the actions of a few.
Relax, who say you ?
What kind of people HAVE you been dealing with, to go and have to treat me like that ? : )
Read it again, as if is agreeing with you,
because it is.
My apologies.
Checked the link ?
Hoist them on their petard, I say.
People have been killing people in the name of “religion” since the dawn of time. The ones doing the killing in the name of God, Allah, etc…normally are the ones declaring “their religion as the only right and true religion” which is why the are called extremists.
You can hold out examples of Islamic extremists suicide bombers as examples of the Islamic religion. I could counted with examples of Christian extremists abortion murders as examples of the Christian religion. Or, I could counter with examples of the IRA bombers as examples of the Catholic religion.
All religions have examples of extreme behavior that is done in the name of the religion. But the extreme is not the norm. Our country has a historical record of responding to extreme behavior with hatred directed towards the whole based on fear. Fear of the unknown, fear of understand, fear in the name of fear.
You are right about religions and killing, but there is a little more to the story. You can lump all the killings by Christian anti-abortionists AND all sides in the Irish “Troubles” together, then throw in all of the killings by serial killers in the world in the last century, and add the death toll from the bombing of the Murrah Federal Building, you won’t equal the number of Islamic murders and terror killings in the last 12 months. Believe it or not, there are people out there keeping score! http://markhumphrys.com/islam.killings.html
Writings on Politics and Religion
by Mark Humphrys
Pro-free private life:
Atheist.
Pro-science.
Pro-reason.
Pro-free speech.
Pro-liberal democracy.
Pro-free economic life:
Pro-capitalist.
Pro-West.
Pro-interventionist:
Anti-isolationist.
End tyranny everywhere.
End communism.
End Islamic law.
Again try using a site that doesn’t have an agenda to push.
Okay, your turn. You find a nice site that is properly instructional.
If and when you use an objective site that has a balanced approach to the problem of Islamic terrorists I will acknowledge it. But keep posting the sites you have and I will continue to debunk them as biased.
What is your take on the interment of U.S. citizens of Japanese heritage during WWII? Was it justified or an extreme reaction to the events? And if we interred U.S. citizens of Japanese decent why didn’t we inter U.S. citizens of German decent?
With the benefit of 71 years of hindsight, I would not agree with the internment of the issei, nisei and sansei in special camps (not that it has anything at all to do with this discussion at hand!) Now, have you got a web site for me to peruse? One that reflects your feelings on the subject of Islam?
jim, I am not the one using websites to support my position. I don’t need to use a website to support my position because I, like President G.W. Bush know that we are not “at war” with a religion but a small group of people that pervert a religion to their use.
I agree that we are not at war with a religion. We are at war with an entire Way of Life. It is antithetical to our way of life, our beliefs in the human condition, our constitutional republic. Really – you can’t find a web site that supports your views? How odd.
I haven’t found one because I haven’t bothered or found it necessary to look for one.
I think FDR said it pretty well: “So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is fear itself—nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.”
The same can be said of the fear many people have of Islam and the Muslim religion.
I understand the “I don’t have to inform myself on the topic for I already know what I want to know” mindset; I have encountered it before. If you are coming to this with a Politically Correct mindset, it is possible that it is not too late. Political correctness kills. Everyday. Multiculturalism kills. Every day.
I have no mindset. I am far from “Politically Correct”.
I lost 343 brother Fire Fighters and 13 brother EMTs on 9/11. But I know who killed them and is wasn’t the “Muslim” religion or Islam. They were killed by radical Muslim terrorists that pervert a religion to fit there radical, terrorist desires to kill in the name of a religion.
I my job I deal with people from all over the world, different cultures and religions and I have never met one, NOT one that wishes harm to us on an individual basis or as a country.
Who do you really think you’re fooling? Really. You are the wiki king of copy and paste which is precisely why you won’t show your cards.
Ah my friend cp444. Did you bring you paint bucket and brush today?
Ahh, were friends today. that’s great! I will wait for the paint to dry so you can come out of your corner and play. I see you have had a busy day wiping egg off your face once again.
What egg would that be cp444. Standing up for Religious Freedom?
I know Religious Freedom doesn’t fit into your view of our country but that is one of the tenants our country was founded on. No national religion, freedom to worship or not worship as one desires, no one religion any more or less important as your neighbors religion, no religious test or requirement to exercise our rights as citizens or to vote.
Over the past 3 months, the level of bigotry, ignorance, intolerance, and hatred in this forum has made me ASHAMED to admit I am from Maine. I try to bring a little reason and understanding into the world by suggesting that people try to look at both sides of an issue. But I am done. You people are beyond help, beyond reason, and beyond caring for. Yes I am a Bleeding Heart Liberal. It does hurt me when I see the hate you people carry around. I spent my whole life being abused by people just like you, and yet I still can’t imagine what must have happened in your lives to make you so heartless and hateful. And the lot of you in here degrading anything remotely different from yourselves and claiming to be Christian. Jesus probably does love you, but I know He is crying right now at the way His children are behaving in His name. I don’t believe the same things as everyone, that would be impossible, but I respect people and their beliefs. That is why this is America, our differences, not our likenesses.
Door…meet Beast.
Dont let the door hit him on the butt on the way out…:)
Well said
“I try to bring a little reason and understanding into the world by suggesting that people try to look at both sides of an issue.”
Has it ever occurred to you that critics of Islam have availed themselves of a wealth of information regarding it and have concluded correctly that it must be soundly rejected as incompatible with the goals of a free and independent-minded people? That it’s a command and control political system masquerading as a religion?
THERE ya go ! BINGO~! I didn’t just decide this morning that I had problems with the methods and goals of Islam. I have been trying to learn about how Moslems think, and why they “need” to come after us and kill us. When you think about it, this is a pretty interesting question. Of course, as always, everyone is free to make up their own minds on the matter.
…
War is hell.
They declared it.
But have you noticed that they only called class warfare when we fight back ?
…..
“I try to bring a little reason and understanding into the world by suggesting that people try to look at both sides of an issue. But I am done”
That is their goal and objective.
They have eliminated another moderate voice of reason from the debate going
into the national election year.
But I get your point.too.
So, if you find somewhere we can have a discussion on that (civil ? – tactical* ?) level
report back, please !
* But personally, I say lets waste them.
It is just a battle of words, after all, so let’s, we progresses, take some back and
make them our own.
I remembering how and why I saw the civil rights debate change in America.
I feel we both need to confront today’s bigotry , but to it do at least as well as
when it worked its best.
We could begin by refining the points that counter the usual Know Nothing’s platitudes to the point that as soon can get them out, people know the BEST, response, … point made, then rest is just play.
As example is of it :
> “my best friend is ….”
… all the bigots say that … so prove you aren’t one by beginning “I believe…. speaking for myself … ”
Doing that changed the brains pathways from the defensive, fight or flight mode, to one’s being personally invested in the value the words used, so that truth and personal honor counted.
That level of thinking and planning goes on in think tanks,
now, but where is
the open source, Marshall McLuhanian, progressive opinion making
and marketing co-operative community ?
Really. Here is a direct quotes from the quran for ya.
“Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends.”
(Surah
5:51)
“Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal
firmly
with them.” (Surah 9:121-)
“Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people…They
desire nothing but your ruin….You believe in the entire Book…When
they
meet you they say: ‘We, too, are believers.’ But when alone, they bite
their finger-tips with rage.” (Surah 3:118, 119)
“Seek out your enemies relentlessly.” (Surah 4:103-)To anybody who has not READ the book yourself. Make up your own mind. The words are clear and speak for themselves.
Here are some direct quotes from the Bible for ya.. I can find more hate filled bile from your trusty book you probably never read if you would like.
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a
rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If,
however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since
the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife,
both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord
alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
But if this charge is true (that she wasn’t a
virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not
found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there
her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against
Israel by her unchasteness in her father’s house. Thus shall you purge the evil
from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of
their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the
world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)
Any recent examples of these Old Testament quotes being carried out?
you are taking this out of context and historical context.
How? Please provide examples.
propaganda
I’m sure you are right. It is probably just a coincidence that 99% of all the beheadings, attacks of Christians, honor killings, stonings, choppings off of hands and feet, and trials for witchcraft are attributed to Muslims. Just a mean-spirited coincidence. Oh, and did I mention female genital mutilation? Or even plain old garden variety murder?
http://www.islam-watch.org/
http://www.prophetofdoom.net/Islamic_Quotes_Terrorism.Islam
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.citizenwarrior.com/2008/10/least-you-need-to-know-about-islam.html
http://www.middle-east-info.org/gateway/womenchildabuse/
http://islamexposed.blogspot.com/2010/08/reliance-of-traveller-handbook-of.html
No thanks.
“Learn it or burn it?” Actually neither one appeals to me.
Interesting how no one has a hissy-fit over a Muslim saying that homosexuality is a sin, but everyone demonizes Christians for saying so…
Intolerance is the same in any language…
I thought I was the only one that caught that… lol.
During my military career I visited several Islamic countries and spent a few months with members of yet another and found most everyone reasonable, polite and honorable in our interactions. There were things that I saw that puzzled me at times, mainly because of customs and traditions unfamiliar to me. I’m sure some of my actions were just as puzzling to them. At no point did I ever feel like anyone was out to get me because we didn’t share the same religion. Just because we don’t share the same values, beliefs and customs doesn’t make them wrong or evil.
It is very true that we don’t share the same values, beliefs and customs. The point I have very gently been trying to make here is this: THAT is why they are trying to kill us. We do not share their beliefs. The penalty for that is DEATH. It is spelled out in their own writings. I do not know of a “nice” way to say that. From my point of view, that is a very poor reason to want to ‘off’ someone. From their point of view, it is reason aplenty. That’s the situation in a nutshell. What you do with this revelation is up to you.
http://www.wnd.com/2012/02/ayatollah-kill-all-jews-annihilate-israel/
This is mainstream, people. The ayatollahs are main stream. This guy said this to cheering crowds and people dutifuly watching TV at home.
When Mir said, “We view [suicide bombings] more as a sociopolitical act than a religious action,” he wasn’t exactly lying, as it is a “sociopolitical act” that is approved of by Islamic governments. Mir certainly wasn’t condemning attacks like this, just side-stepping the issue.
Jesus is the way to everlasting life, a promise that will be kept if you accept it! There is no such guarantee in Islam. According to Islam it doesn’t matter how righteous you are, you could still be thrust into the depths of hell.
The best thing about Jesus is that he’s not a religion! Religion is just a set of rules to live by, but Jesus is THE WAY to live!
Embracing a lie is your cup of tea, not mine.
Embracing a lie is your cup of tea, not mine.
Remember “C”. You put down no one.
Wow, excellent site – thanks!
Reminds me of Ataturk’s dragging Turkey kicking and screaming into the 20th century, though there’s a heap of backsliding going on now.