Recent home invasions boost sales at area gun shops

Have you seen what bird shot, let alone a duck load or turkey shot can do at close range?  Who is going to spend the extra money on an AR versus a shotgun that is considerably cheaper.  I’ve shot military style arms and they are great shooting firearms, but it still comes down to the right ammunition.

It is a horrible way to make a point, but look at the turkey hunting accidents and a few duck hunting accidents where people have been shot by turkey or duck loads.  It has proven fatal at ranges further than a length of a room.  If you don’t think bird shot won’t break the skin you are mistaken I wouldn’t want 9’s let alone 4’s or 3’s flying at me from any range.  If it is enough to kill a coyote at 40 yards then it should be enough at 10 feet across a room.  At range I wouldn’t want it, I’m in agreement there, but what people want primarily is close quarters within 20-30 feet.  If I was worried about 30 yards or more I have the ammunition to handle that.

There are many instances of fatalities from turkey and duck hunting ammunition, and they are typically from shots at ranges of 30 yards.  I’m not making a victim of anyone, anyone who wants to take this seriously should do their own research and not rely on internet postings.  They need to spend the time to get familiar and comfortable with their firearms.  I would feel perfectly capable with a pump gun and what I use for coyote hunting, if it can knock a coyote down at 40 yards, I am not worried about 10 feet in front of me.  

The tests where a projectile must pass through 10-12 inches of ballistic jelly to be determined effective?  I think the smallest caliber that meets that req. is maybe a .38? not sure.  But at ranges greater than my room(I live in a small house) I would go bigger, I will admit that.  But at “Close Range” which is what I’ve been saying, it is sufficient.  I would run  bigger shot behind that if needed.  Bird shot encompasses a wide range of sizes, you use what is appropriate for the situation.  #2-bb goose loads do serious damage.  I will say it again at close range with in 10-20 feet you can do what you have to, beyond you should use ammunition that is appropriate.  This is a topic that is beat to death by people all the time.  There is always two schools of thought regarding this, but everyone on either side agrees that outside of close ranges you need something bigger.  Hunters have seen what #4 buck down to 3-4’s do on yotes and thick skinned hogs at 30 yards, and those have some skin on them.  Hogs especially have some serious muscle and skin.  That is all I have to say about it.  Close range OK, further No.

I know what 4 buck is it was a general statement about what is common for hog hunters anything from 4 buck down to #4 turkey.  How about this for a test 10 feet or less dead pig, see what it does, and tell me it wouldn’t stop someone.  Like I said close quarters vs. more range very different scenarios.  A blank pressed against someone can kill them, but stand back 6 inches and all you’ll get is burns, it’s all about range.

So if you shoot and miss the invader with your 44 mag. and kill someone in the house next door, is that all right with you?

Choice of firearm and round is an individual choice. Personally, my choice is a Mossberg 12g with one shell of bird shot followed by 00 buck and a Ruger P85 9mm with “silver tip” JHP. I am very comfortable with both choices.

My personal experience with .223 is that a standard FMJ .223 round does over penetrate and will  easily penetrate drywall, plywood, siding, etc…

The stopping power of most rounds is a function of the ballistic characteristics of the round and the “style” of the round. i.e. FMJ, SJHP, HP, Shot Shell, Hydra-Shock, etc…

http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm does a good job of reviewing not only the different types of firearms used in self-defense but the different rounds available.

By the way arguing that the AR15 and the .223 round is the best choice is pointless. It is your choice. Personally, I think you are wrong for a number of reasons but it is your choice. Just like my Mossberg and Ruger are mine.

 WOW where do people get this information? Many places do in fact recommend bird shot. Bird shot form a 20 gauge is a great idea for females low recoil and tons of knock down power in house distances. Name of those who recommend this Massad Ayoob, Clint Smith ( thunder ranch ) among many others. Anybody who doubts it take a 20 gauge and some # birdshot in 2 1/2″ shells and set up a 1/2 inch of plywood at 20 yards the farthest you would be shooting inside a home and tell me you would be ok after.

Do nto by any means take my word for it go to Gunsite or Thunder ranch for some training or a Massad Ayoob lecture. You can also do a search on close range shotgun wounds and see what may happen.

 Most self defense situations occur within 7-10 feet, every foot after that decreases your chances of hitting your target without a scope or laser.

 But decreases nonetheless.

Set a pumpkin at 30′ put a round of birdshot into it. It will explode.

I have seen people shot with #6 at a range of a few feet and 90% of the pellets didn’t break the skin and only left bruises. The other 10% just barely broke the skin and oozed blood.

You can not confuse generic number 6 bird shot with a number 4 magnum turkey load.  Might as well compare a 22 with a 45.
A short barrel shotgun with a #4 magnum load will do more than sufficient damage including killing a human at 20 feet without the need for a great deal off accuracy in placing the shot or a lot of concern with damage to others beyond a wall.  Yes it will penetrate sheetrock and plywood but not with the same force or concentrated threat as an AR round.

Considering how few the number of the avid gun owners posting here agree with you I would think you would know better by now than to claim that you are the only one who knows what he is talking about.  I would put my ability to stop a target in a home distance under stress when accuracy suffers against your chosen weapon anyday.  As for recoil, put on your big girl panties.

Spoken like a typical civilian (never done it but wish I had so I own a military wannabe weapon) gun know nothing.
As a former Marine I’ve used all of the weapons we are discussing and more in actual urban assault environments (courses only, unlike the poster I’m responding to, I’m not claiming to have knowledge I don’t have from actual experience not something I read in a book or online).  The recoil is something to pay attention to as it is a factor of the force you are throwing forward as much as it is a factor of the force you feel on your shoulder.  
The good thing about medium weight bird shot like a magnum turkey load (not all bird shot is to be taken lightly) is the force at short range is just as effective as a heavier weight buck load but it dissipates faster over distance so you are less likely to go through the bedroom wall and injure your child on the other side.  Force at short range is not just about penetration, trauma kills.  You will have to sit and fear shooting because, well number one because you have to get over being afraid of your weapon, but more importantly you have to worry more about where your round will be 60 feet or better beyond your target.  With my chosen weapon I only have to worry about what is 20 feet in front of me with no cover.  This is a major issue in a home where the typical wall is 2 sheets of 1/2 thick plaster at best.  You can’t count on hitting a stud to save your children in the next room from your poor choices.
The other advantage with the shot gun is it is an all purpose weapon and 2 shells down the stack I can have a slug waiting which will penetrate anything I may need to penetrate and which I can hit well with out to 75 yards.  Shooting someone who has run that far from my property line will only cause problems in the investigation later anyway.

Wow, so many things incorrect about your post.

The Vietnamese were not lightly trained, they were considered the best light infantry in the world, by the US Army, no less.  AND they still did not win a single battle or hold a single city against the US military.

The Mujaheddin were trained and supplied with US weapons and becasme so good at shooting down Soviet Helicopters that the use of helicopters by the Soviets almost stopped.  They did that using Stinger missiles, which need specific training for.

The Nazi’s were not all that concerned with the jewish uprising during the Second World War.  They had a little distraction, 20 million heavily armed and trained Russians bent on teh destruction of Germany.  They fought against the jewish uprising with piecemeal effort and desire.

The French Resistance (in fact each occupied country had a resistance that helped the war effort with the Dutch Resistance being particularly effective) was mainly a covert spying force that was very useful in rescuing downed Allied pilots and providing logistical support to allied raids into occupied France.  They did help tie down a couple Axis battalions (not all troops fighting against the Allies were German, especially in France at teh time of the invasion) during the invasion of Europe by Allied Regular forces and disrupted communications between other Axis units  They fought a nasty war with the Nazi occupiers that helped with the liberation of Europe but by themselves would never have caused the Germans to leave France.

The Finnish Army at the beginning of WWII was a highly trained and well-equiped armed force.  They used small units with superior training and equipment to cut up larger poorly trained and equiped Russian units and caused serious casualties until the Russians’s flooded the campaign with over a million troops and wore down the Finnish Army. (Interesting reading of small unit tactics against a larger force, if you want to read about it, I have)

After the initial skermishes between Colonial Irregulars and British forces the bulk of the Revolution was fought using conventional military forces with cannon, cavalry and trained infantry on both sides.  The Colonists also relied on trained German mercenaries to fight with them and had the aid of the French Navy as well.

Now give some more examples of trained irregulars beating trained and better armed regulars.